[HN Gopher] Not all TLDs are Created Equal
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Not all TLDs are Created Equal
        
       Author : pabs3
       Score  : 206 points
       Date   : 2024-02-14 07:51 UTC (15 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.hezmatt.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.hezmatt.org)
        
       | echelon wrote:
       | There shouldn't be ccTLDs.
       | 
       | Governments should exist as individual planes within a single
       | top-level namespace. They're crowding the commons and taking
       | useful suffixes.
       | 
       | But I'm also of the opinion these TLD namespaces shouldn't be
       | bought and controlled by the highest bidders, nor domains by at
       | volume squatters.
        
         | hsbauauvhabzb wrote:
         | I'm more scared of TLD owners either changing ownership of
         | domaine and/or price gouging than either of those things - if
         | your TLD decides to 10x the cost of your domain, or sell the
         | domain to your competitor, what are you gonna do?
        
           | closewith wrote:
           | Or just host an annual action, which would be the fairest way
           | to determine the value of the domain.
           | 
           | Still, TLD registries know that if they make domains
           | unattractive enough, some other identifier will come along.
        
             | hsbauauvhabzb wrote:
             | Annual auction favours whoever has more money, which is
             | fairly anti competitive too.
             | 
             | 'Other identifiers' only happen at scale. 1000x the cost of
             | fortune 500's, or a single tld.
        
             | PeterisP wrote:
             | Kind of the whole point is that we _don 't_ want domain
             | registrars to be able to extract "the value of the domain",
             | quite the opposite, we could want to auction for the lowest
             | bids for running the technical infrastructure to some
             | appropriate standard, so that as much as possible of "the
             | value of the domain" stays with people actually running
             | services, not goes to someone as unearned rent of a
             | namespace monopoly.
        
               | closewith wrote:
               | Well, the names obviously have value. Why would that
               | value naturally rest with whoever registered it first?
               | That's just another unearned monopoly.
        
               | PeterisP wrote:
               | Because a big part of that value comes only after - and
               | only because - whoever registered the name invested into
               | that brand, sometimes by continued business and
               | reputation, sometimes by marketing.
               | 
               | For example, the name ycombinator.com has _some_ value on
               | its own, but I think you won 't contest that the _vast
               | majority_ of the current value of that name arose only
               | because a popular community was ran on this domain name
               | for decades, and if hackernews was instead run on
               | scombinator.com or whatever, then the value of
               | ycombinator.com would be just a fraction of what it
               | currently is.
        
             | Macha wrote:
             | It would only be fair if we assumed all people had an exact
             | equal amount of resources and therefore if person A outbids
             | person B, it's because it means more to person A than
             | person B, rather than say person A having 100x the
             | resources of person B.
             | 
             | We also don't force auction land off every year, because
             | the costs (both financial and social) of that churn and
             | insecurity are way worse than the gains from the resources
             | being allocated for maximum economic value.
        
           | throwawayqqq11 wrote:
           | Make an .onion mirror and educate the masses.
           | 
           | There should be a way to abuse the tor network as a dns into
           | the clear web.
        
             | hsbauauvhabzb wrote:
             | Ah yes, grandma you should learn how to use tor so you can
             | visit my e-commerce site through an obscure url that's
             | meaningless to you just be sure not to get scammed.
        
               | throwawayqqq11 wrote:
               | Tor has solved the centralized name service problem. Once
               | it gets adopted up by browsers, your grandma only has to
               | bookmark weird names.
        
               | maxcoder4 wrote:
               | Tor browser is not harder to use then Firefox or Chrome.
               | And people don't type urls, they click on links.
        
             | h0p3 wrote:
             | Unironically, I agree to the first claim, and I think i2p
             | merits even higher consideration.
             | 
             | Worthy attempts to resolve Zooko's triangle are going to
             | require us to have trust in some stack, and it's hard to
             | decentralize that appropriately. Namecoin may be one of the
             | few examples of a b-word worth considering here.
             | Ultimately, however, if the workers are to own the means of
             | productions, there is no substitute for using and owning
             | keys (and if that means people have to rely upon those they
             | know and trust to assist them in this, then so be it). I
             | don't predict that convention will arise in general, but I
             | do prescribe it.
        
         | silisili wrote:
         | Disagree. ccTLDs at least let you know you're dealing with the
         | country in question - revenue.gov.uk is more trustworthy than
         | revenue.gov.buzz or some other rando gTLD.
         | 
         | People should generally just stop buying ccTLD domains for
         | personal use. .ly, .ai, tv isn't as necessary or cool as they
         | think it is.
        
           | benjojo12 wrote:
           | Amusingly, the project/company that the person you're
           | replying to is using .AI domain (see their HN bio), so
           | clearly their opinions about how ccTLDs shouldn't exist can't
           | be that strong
        
             | echelon wrote:
             | It shouldn't be a ccTLD.
             | 
             | Look at these arbitrary .ai ccTLD rules [1], as originally
             | posted by p4bl0:
             | 
             | > The terms and conditions of .ai domain names include
             | things such as "not asking for investors" (without an
             | Anguilla license to be a bank, broker, public company, ICO,
             | exchange, or gambling site) and "not violating copyrights",
             | both of which are... complicated for a lot of AI-related
             | startups that chose to use a .ai domain.
             | 
             | That's arbitrary and horrible. Thoughts shouldn't be so
             | encumbered.
             | 
             | [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39367730
        
               | seszett wrote:
               | These don't seem arbitrary but totally in line with what
               | a ccTLD means.
               | 
               | Domains with the .ai TLD must obviously respect Anguilla
               | law, just like the use .gov is restricted by the US
               | government.
        
             | krab wrote:
             | They mean .ai should exist but it shouldn't be managed by a
             | foreign country. ;-)
        
             | tsimionescu wrote:
             | I think they believe that .ai should exist as a TLD, but
             | _not_ as a ccTLD. They 'd basically like the Anguilles to
             | not be in control of this TLD. Using it despite that is not
             | inconsistent.
             | 
             | Not that I agree with them, by the way. ccTLDs have to
             | exist, countries have an obvious write to host their own
             | TLDs without having to rely on others.
        
           | arkh wrote:
           | > People should generally just stop buying ccTLD domains for
           | personal use.
           | 
           | firstname@lastname.countryCode email addresses look good tho.
        
           | maxcoder4 wrote:
           | >People should generally just stop buying ccTLD domains for
           | personal use.
           | 
           | People should buy ccTLDs more often. I try to stick to
           | domains in my country TLD when possible, instead of getting a
           | generic (.com) one.
        
         | SahAssar wrote:
         | > Governments should exist as individual planes within a single
         | top-level namespace.
         | 
         | Isn't that exactly how it works? The top level namespace is
         | ".", every goverment controls a namespace under that.
         | 
         | Or do you mean that we should have .se.gov, .uk.gov and no
         | government control over non-.gov domains?
        
           | JoshTriplett wrote:
           | > Or do you mean that we should have .se.gov, .uk.gov and no
           | government control over non-.gov domains?
           | 
           | Yes, that would be a substantial improvement.
        
             | quickthrower2 wrote:
             | uk.gob us.gob etc. though. Why should we use the English
             | word for government?
        
               | midasuni wrote:
               | OP is a classic imperial citizen with no concept of the
               | world outside his empire
        
               | samatman wrote:
               | Is http the correct abbreviation for your language's
               | translation of hypertext transport protocol?
        
               | SahAssar wrote:
               | Because for most international standards we based it
               | either on french or english. Recently (the last half
               | century or so) it's been a lot more english, which is
               | nice since it's the most widely spoken language.
        
         | lifthrasiir wrote:
         | > Governments should exist as individual planes within a single
         | top-level namespace.
         | 
         | Do you want something like `foo.us.com` (instead of
         | `foo.com.us`)? That doesn't sound like a meaningful difference,
         | and can be worse than the status quo especially given that
         | different governments would want a different set of second-
         | level domains anyway.
        
           | nativeit wrote:
           | Not really relevant, but "us.com" is a weird type of sub-top-
           | level domain now, I think some other "cc.com" domains have
           | popped up as well.
        
         | quectophoton wrote:
         | I have mixed feelings on this.
         | 
         | On one hand, as an outsider it seems like every country needs
         | to bow down their heads to the North American ICANN to ask for
         | permission to have their own TLD listed in their root servers
         | (even if those servers are already located in the country
         | that's asking for permissions).
         | 
         | But on the other hand, even if every country actually owned
         | their root DNS servers and were completely independent from
         | each other on this regard, everyone already expects the
         | internet to work a certain way. So keeping things like they are
         | now is the more pragmatic way to go.
         | 
         | It would be doable in an alternate universe, e.g. every domain
         | is local except those who have a specific TLD for international
         | stuff. Similar to how country calling codes work; all numbers
         | are national unless you use "+something" or "00something". So
         | companies would have "home advantage" with their domain names
         | because users from their own country wouldn't need the
         | international TLD.
         | 
         | (Yes, there's issues and things to think about if things were
         | done that way, and I can certainly make this message longer,
         | but everyone everywhere is already used to how things work now
         | so there's not much point.)
         | 
         | There's a similar "issue" with IP addresses (which are
         | controlled by North American IANA (which is controlled by North
         | American ICANN)), but in that case it's easier to solve because
         | they are more invisible, not something the common person deals
         | with daily.
        
         | p4bl0 wrote:
         | That's clearly a very bad idea. Maybe .gov was supposed to be
         | that initially? The USA have it for themselves alone.
         | Thankfully other countries have their ccTLD and can reserve a
         | subdomain for their government official websites, like .gouv.fr
         | in France, because they can't have .fr.gov (which would look
         | strange anyway, since "gov" is a shorthand for the english
         | word).
         | 
         | And this is not the only instance. Initially, the .edu was for
         | all education institutions, but at some point it was
         | unilaterally decided that only higher education institutions in
         | the USA should be authorized to use such domains, which is a
         | shame. For institutions still using it outside the US because
         | they registered it before this decision, a single mishaps like
         | missing the renewal deadline and they won't ever be able to get
         | their domain back. And .edu can only be renewed in the last two
         | weeks before expiration (thankfully now it is possible to pay
         | for three years at once rather than a single one but that's
         | recent).
         | 
         | So, the history of US-centric management of the internet
         | strongly suggest that it's a good idea that countries have and
         | can control their own TLD. Even if a few people feel like their
         | vanity domain name should use what happens to be a ccTLD.
        
           | kube-system wrote:
           | > Maybe .gov was supposed to be that initially? The USA have
           | it for themselves alone.
           | 
           | .gov dates to 1984, back when the internet was the ARPA-
           | Internet. At the time _the whole thing_ was a US military
           | network that some research institutions were permitted to
           | connect to. .edu was never intended to be used for every
           | school in the world, just the institutions collaborating on
           | US government research.
           | 
           | https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc920
           | 
           | If you think about the history of the internet from today's
           | international perspective, it sounds strange, because it
           | never was that from the beginning. It always was a US
           | military computer network that grew way beyond the initial
           | intent. It wasn't until 2016 that the US government decided
           | to hand over control to the international community.
        
             | p4bl0 wrote:
             | > .edu was never intended to be used for every school in
             | the world
             | 
             | There was a time when .edu domains were attributed upon
             | simple requests as long as you were an education related
             | institution, from wherever in the world. It only later
             | became paid, and then restricted to US institutions in 2001
             | (that is _16 years after_ the creation of the .edu TLD,
             | contrary to what you say). I know this because I inherited
             | the management of such a domain for a French university
             | directly from the person who created it back then and who
             | told me the whole history of how they got hold of this
             | domain name.
             | 
             | I insist on saying "institutions" and not "schools" because
             | it's what I can see. Examples still in use in France
             | includes polytechnique.edu [1] but also snes.edu, which is
             | the website of the main workers union for middle and high
             | school teachers in France (SNES-FSU).
             | 
             | Also, note that nothing in its text seems to limit the
             | scope of the RFC 920, the one you linked, to the US.
             | 
             | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_polytechnique
        
         | midasuni wrote:
         | How's the connectivity in Anguilla?
        
         | zokier wrote:
         | There shouldn't be any gTLDs. Registrations for legacy TLDs
         | should have closed when ccTLDs were introduced. There is no
         | other generally accepted division of world except countries
         | with their sovereignity. All entities with presence on internet
         | are generally subject to some country. The handful of other
         | entities (UN etc) can be handled as special cases.
        
       | p4bl0 wrote:
       | About this, it didn't get traction but yesterday I submitted
       | this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39356410
       | 
       | The terms and conditions of .ai domain names include things such
       | as "not asking for investors" (without an _Anguilla_ license to
       | be a bank, broker, public company, ICO, exchange, or gambling
       | site) and  "not violating copyrights", both of which are...
       | complicated for a lot of AI-related startups that chose to use a
       | .ai domain.
        
         | rvnx wrote:
         | This is the much more interesting news / fact, people relying
         | on a weak .ai TLD for their billion dollar idea.
        
           | nottorp wrote:
           | Most billion dollar ideas are worth about 2 cents aren't
           | they?
        
             | Sohcahtoa82 wrote:
             | The idea is worth 2 cents.
             | 
             | The successful execution could be worth $2b.
        
         | chippiewill wrote:
         | They clearly tie "not asking for investors" to "don't be a
         | scam", so I don't think any legitimate AI startup has a concern
         | on that front. Most startups aren't exactly pitching for
         | investment on their home page anyway.
        
       | agos wrote:
       | I remember .ly domains, at the time widely used as url
       | shorteners, having troubles in times of political unrest.
        
         | stigi wrote:
         | In a few days my domain `foodba.by` is expiring after I stopped
         | transferring funds to Belarus after the role the country took
         | during the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
         | 
         | Glad that side project never took of :-)
        
       | nemetroid wrote:
       | My local ccTLD answers to the democratic government on which I
       | vote. ICANN is a foreign entity and answers to the US government.
        
         | throwaway11460 wrote:
         | My TLD answering to the democratic government on which I have 1
         | of 10 million votes - and most of it not going the way I'd like
         | - is my worst fear.
        
           | WindyMiller wrote:
           | Still, if that's your worst fear, at least you must have a
           | pretty good government.
        
             | throwaway11460 wrote:
             | No, it's just the only thing left where they can touch me.
        
           | Macha wrote:
           | Better it answers to a board of directors where you have 0
           | votes?
        
           | Gormo wrote:
           | ...especially if 9.9 million of those votes are being cast by
           | people on the basis of questions completely unrelated to TLD
           | governance, and who may not even be aware that such a thing
           | exists.
           | 
           | I've never understood the model of having a _single_
           | democratic process be the arbiter of _every_ issue. It just
           | allows gamesmanship where factions can play up issue X to win
           | votes, then use the political power they obtain to push their
           | agenda on completely unrelated issue Y. I suspect this is a
           | major motivation for a lot of the exaggerated political
           | polarization around symbolic  "culture war" issues.
        
             | palata wrote:
             | In a _functioning_ democracy, the government does indeed
             | represent the people. Not every country is lucky enough to
             | have a functioning democracy of course, and the people only
             | gets to vote once every few years for a president that _by
             | design_ does not represent them.
             | 
             | I trust the ccTLD of my country more than the gTLDs that
             | are private entities.
        
               | Gormo wrote:
               | >In a functioning democracy, the government does indeed
               | represent the people.
               | 
               | I don't even consider it logically possible for a
               | singular government advancing a singular policy to
               | represent "the people", because that concept represents
               | an aggregation of many distinct individuals and
               | communities, and all controversies and conflicts of
               | interests that are addressed via politics emerge from
               | _within_ that aggregation.
               | 
               | Politics is a tool for mitigating disputes arising from
               | divergences of values or conflicts of interests within
               | "the people", so the idea of treating it as something
               | that expresses a singular set of values or interests
               | applicable to the whole is incorrect.
               | 
               | > I trust the ccTLD of my country more than the gTLDs
               | that are private entities.
               | 
               | The point is that _everything_ is a private entity, even
               | the government-run ones. All institutions are groups of
               | specific people inhabiting a bounded context, and there
               | 's no mechanism for effectively making any particular
               | institution accountable to a speculative aggregation of
               | millions, so the distinction of between "public" and
               | "private" is largely meaningless.
        
               | palata wrote:
               | We seem to be living in pretty different countries :-).
               | 
               | > so the distinction of between "public" and "private" is
               | largely meaningless
               | 
               | In my country, what's "public" is owned by the
               | government, and the government is elected by the people.
               | There is an obvious difference between what is public and
               | what is private, to the point where it is actually hard
               | for me to imagine that someone _living in my country_ may
               | believe that the distinction is meaningless.
               | 
               | > I don't even consider it logically possible for a
               | singular government advancing a singular policy to
               | represent "the people"
               | 
               | Imagine that the people elects the government. Not one
               | president, but the whole government. You will end up with
               | elected officials ranging from the left to the right. If
               | more people vote for the right, then there are more
               | officials on the right, but there are still others that
               | are elected on the left/center. For important matters,
               | you have a referendum, where the people can directly vote
               | on the topic at hand.
               | 
               | The result of that is that if you _always_ disagree with
               | everything the government does, it means that you are
               | part of a pretty small minority in your country. So you,
               | individually, are not represented by the government, but
               | _most of the citizen_ are.
               | 
               | That's the whole point. If you believe that everyone
               | should have a government with which they agree 100% of
               | the time, then that's not possible. But if you believe
               | that, you need to learn how to compromise, for your own
               | sake.
        
         | kijin wrote:
         | Good for you. Can't say the same for many of the exotic ccTLDs
         | that are considered sexy these days.
         | 
         | On the other hand, there are oddities like .eu that have too
         | many layers of abstraction between the people and the actual
         | administrators; zombie ccTLDs like .su and .yu which stand for
         | countries that no longer exist; and phantom ccTLDs like .io
         | which don't stand for any officially recognized country at all.
         | So it really depends on which ccTLD you're talking about.
        
           | nemetroid wrote:
           | > So it really depends on which ccTLD you're talking about.
           | 
           | Indeed. ccTLD vanity domains are a bad idea in general, and
           | using .af for such purposes is an extraordinarily bad idea.
           | As another comment pointed out, the article's conclusion of
           | "avoid all ccTLDs" rather than "do your due diligence" is
           | weird.
        
             | kijin wrote:
             | Agreed. I would generally not use a ccTLD unless 1) it's
             | from a stable first-world democracy, and 2) I have either
             | citizenship or a strong business presence in that country.
             | 
             | Having said that, if OP is from the United States, I can
             | sort of understand why the conclusion goes "avoid all
             | ccTLDs." Americans have a tendency to treat the initial set
             | of gTLDs as their own -- not only .gov, .mil, and .edu, but
             | all the well-known ones, too.
        
               | graemep wrote:
               | I would add, if it is the place where your business is
               | located (or you live).
               | 
               | Regardless of how good or bad a government it is, you are
               | already subject to its jurisdiction.
        
           | ithkuil wrote:
           | Iirc .io is not _a_ country but a territory of another
           | country (British Indian ocean territory).
           | 
           | A similar case is for American Samoa (.as), Guam (.gu). Etc.
           | 
           | Although it is technically correct to say they are not
           | "internationally recognized countries", that's because they
           | are not countries, not because they are not internationally
           | recognized (they very much are). Thus the qualifier is
           | confusing.
           | 
           | It is like if I claimed that my cat is not an "dog from this
           | planet". That statement is true not because my cat comes from
           | another planet, but simply because it's not a dog in the
           | first place.
        
             | nicole_express wrote:
             | The difference between the British Indian Ocean Territory
             | and say, American Samoa is that, as far as the BIOT
             | government is concerned, there is no permanent population
             | there. Obviously the US military base can just use .mil. So
             | if ccTLDs are limited to locals, nobody is entitled to .io
             | at all.
             | 
             | The Chagossians do exist, and I'm not trying to diminish
             | their claims. But my understanding is that they claim the
             | islands as a part of Mauritius, which also has its own
             | domain name (.mu), and wouldn't identify with the colonial
             | BIOT government that expelled them in any case.
        
               | ithkuil wrote:
               | Yeah, the timeless misalignment between what ought to be
               | and what technically is
        
               | Symbiote wrote:
               | It's still a territory with some governance and so on.
               | 
               | https://www.biot.gov.io/ is a genuine use.
               | 
               | https://www.sure.io/ is another (an ISP).
        
               | graemep wrote:
               | Is the the Chagossians who claim the islands as mart of
               | Mauritius or the Mauritians?
               | 
               | There are also a number of other territories that are not
               | countries that have ccTLDs: .re, .gs, .mq, .fk etc.
        
           | PeterisP wrote:
           | That's the whole point - don't treat "ccTLDs" as a single
           | category, and the diference there shouldn't be between
           | "exotic ccTLDs" and "common ccTLDs" but rather " _your_ ccTLD
           | " and "foreign ccTLDs".
           | 
           | If you are in Afghanistan and run your business in
           | Afghanistan in a legitimate way, intending to comply with
           | Afghanistan laws, then there's no issue at all in using an
           | .af TLD.
           | 
           | And conversely, you should treat e.g. .uk and .fr as "exotic"
           | if you're not in there and don't intend to spend the time and
           | effort to learn about what is permitted there and not, it
           | would make all sense for you to get kicked off of these
           | domains by doing something that's obviously legal where you
           | live.
        
         | trimethylpurine wrote:
         | ccTLDs are issued by IANA which is literally setup by the US
         | government.
         | 
         | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Assigned_Numbers_Au...
         | 
         | Meanwhile ICANN is an international company so it doesn't
         | answer to any government except within their respective
         | borders.
        
           | kijeda wrote:
           | The US Government ended its involvement in IANA when it moved
           | to an international oversight model in 2016. IANA is operated
           | by Public Technical Identifiers which is an affiliate of
           | ICANN, and ICANN provides all of its funding. Governments
           | have a say in how ICANN operates through its Government
           | Advisory Committee, at which all governments -- including the
           | US -- have a seat.
        
             | trimethylpurine wrote:
             | Great clarification. What I'm poking at is that in all
             | likelihood the US will hold the same view towards a gTLD as
             | a ccTLD and for the same reasons. It is in line with
             | Western ideals to preserve free speech, and so governments
             | of Western societies must appeal to those ideals. The US is
             | no exception, as seen by its willingness to be hands off
             | with regards to IANA and ICANN.
        
       | seszett wrote:
       | As always, these articles seem to be written from a US or
       | "international" point of view that doesn't seem to understand
       | that _country_ TLDs are actually, at least initially, intended
       | for the people of that country.
       | 
       | They are great, absolutely useful, and much lower risk than gTLDs
       | operated by questionable commercial entities. But _obviously_
       | they depend on the country they represent.
       | 
       | I would argue that the main problem is that they should never
       | have been available to entities that don't have ties to the
       | country. That would have solved most of these problems that seem
       | to boil down to "when you pick a random country TLD because it
       | looks cute but you don't know much about the country, sometimes
       | you're surprised by that country's policies".
        
         | bux93 wrote:
         | Also, it's not like gTLDs don't have weird policies. A ton of
         | them are a money grab trying to extort money from trademark
         | owners, and they might disappear or raise prices overnight.
         | Com/net/org repeatedly tried shenanigans in the past.
         | 
         | Replacing "do your due diligence" with a heuristic "cc = bad!"
         | is not advisable.
        
           | nytesky wrote:
           | Why did com net org domains try in past, price gouging?
        
             | diggan wrote:
             | Two events that come to mind:
             | 
             | - The attempt to remove price caps on .org and .info by
             | ICANN, seen as testing the waters for doing the same with
             | .com if the cap removal was successful, which it wasn't
             | 
             | - PIR (operator of .org) was almost sold to some shell
             | company which was gonna transform it into a for-profit from
             | it's current non-profit, this was blocked by ICANN if I
             | remember correctly
             | 
             | Maybe there are more that I don't know about/don't remember
        
               | donmcronald wrote:
               | > The attempt to remove price caps on .org and .info by
               | ICANN
               | 
               | I thought those were removed for .org. Did this [1] get
               | reversed?
               | 
               | 1. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/07/icann-
               | eliminates...
        
               | NewJazz wrote:
               | >this was blocked by ICANN if I remember correctly
               | 
               | ICANN executives were in on the play IIRC. They abandoned
               | efforts once regulators started scrutinizing.
        
               | renewiltord wrote:
               | It was blocked by the California Attorney General
               | threatening to investigate them. Essentially, historical
               | accident of ICANN being a California-incorporated 501c3
               | rescued .org from the ICANN board.
        
             | cqqxo4zV46cp wrote:
             | Why? Because they can?
        
         | kome wrote:
         | yes, lol, he was missing the absolute elephant in the room. if
         | your business operate in france or germany you better have and
         | use the .fr or .de domain, or at least the .eu one. big brands
         | do it (such amazon, google, apple) so do you.
        
           | Tijdreiziger wrote:
           | > big brands do it (such amazon, google, apple) so do you.
           | 
           | A few counterpoints:
           | 
           | - https://www.fnac.com/
           | 
           | - https://www.ikea.com/nl/nl/
           | 
           | - https://www.apple.com/nl/
        
             | teddyh wrote:
             | Where the web site resides goes in waves; sometimes people
             | diverge it out into multiple sites based on ccTLD, and
             | sometimes they redirect all ccTLDs into one central site
             | with sub-pages. But you can bet they will _always_ be
             | keeping the ccTLD domains registered. I.e. FNAC still owns
             | fnac.nl, Apple still owns apple.nl and IKEA still owns
             | ikea.nl, and if you go there you will be redirected to the
             | correct web page.
        
               | fngjdflmdflg wrote:
               | >FNAC still owns fnac.nl [...] and if you go there you
               | will be redirected to the correct web page.
               | 
               | That doesn't seem correct
               | 
               | >ping fnac.nl
               | 
               | >Pinging fnac.nl [165.160.15.20] with 32 bytes of data:
               | 
               | >Request timed out.
        
               | tephra wrote:
               | If you'd tried going to fnac.nl or say use curl for a
               | http request you'd see that it is in fact correct. Ping
               | does not a http request make as they said in the olden
               | days.
        
               | fngjdflmdflg wrote:
               | I did try going to fnac.nl on my web browser and it does
               | not load. And it still isn't loading for me while
               | fnac.com does.
               | 
               | Edit: it does load after some time on my web browser.
        
             | shantara wrote:
             | ikea.fr, .de, .nl all exist and redirect to ikea.com
             | subdomains. Same for apple.com
        
               | playingalong wrote:
               | That doesn't necessarily mean the domains are controlled
               | by these entities.
               | 
               | Imagine a sleeper domain squatter.
        
             | kome wrote:
             | but still https://www.ikea.nl and https://www.apple.nl
        
         | Hamuko wrote:
         | > _I would argue that the main problem is that they should
         | never have been available to entities that don 't have ties to
         | the country._
         | 
         | The people of Tuvalu would probably argue against this, since
         | .tv income represents like 12.5% of the national domestic
         | revenue. Taxation is around 15%.
         | 
         | https://finance.gov.tv/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/1st-Supple...
        
           | James_K wrote:
           | You could always just donate some money to Tuvalu and use a
           | better TLD.
        
           | tialaramex wrote:
           | It must necessarily be up to the country to decide what "ties
           | to the country" even means anyway. It's important to the
           | Irish Republic for example that everybody with connections to
           | the _island_ of Ireland counts as Irish, even though de facto
           | a corner of their island is occupied by people who (to a
           | lesser or greater extent) insist they 're British and are no
           | longer part of the EU unlike the Republic. That's how lots of
           | British people have Irish EU passports, if they were born on
           | the island or have strong connections to it, they're just as
           | entitled to a passport as if they'd been born in Dublin, in
           | the Republic.
           | 
           | It was interesting to see in that budget that Tuvalu earns
           | more from .tv than they do from operating an "Open Registry"
           | (aka "Flag of Convenience") for foreign shipping companies,
           | which is probably the most analogous arrangement to selling
           | domains in your ccTLD from the past.
        
             | messe wrote:
             | This is a certainly a nitpick, and pet peeve, but the Irish
             | Republic was a revolutionary state between roughly
             | 1919-1922. The modern state is just known as Ireland, or
             | referred to as the Republic of Ireland.
        
               | tialaramex wrote:
               | Fair, too late to correct now.
        
             | Y_Y wrote:
             | Northern Ireland is de facto _and_ de jure part of the UK.
             | And  "British people with Irish passports" may just as well
             | be written "Irish people with UK connections". It's worth
             | noting that people living in Great Britain often have
             | passports by virtue of being a "foreign birth" since you
             | may be considered Irish just by having an Irish
             | (great-)grandparent.
             | 
             | Finally, as a sibling comment mentions, the state is called
             | "Ireland" and though it is accurately described as the
             | "Irish republic" or similar, that's not part of the
             | official name.
             | 
             | Otherwise you're right and I agree with your point.
        
               | DoughnutHole wrote:
               | Ireland is an unusual case because we grant citizenship
               | based on your connection to the island rather than the
               | country, ie pretty much anyone entitled to British
               | citizenship on the basis of being from Northern Ireland
               | is also entitled to an Irish citizenship.
               | 
               | Specifically you can be entitled to citizenship from
               | birth if either of the following conditions are met:
               | 
               | - at least one parent is an Irish citizen or entitled to
               | be one _and_ was born on the island of Ireland
               | 
               | - you are born anywhere on the island of Ireland
               | (including Northern Ireland) _and_ at least one parent is
               | an Irish or British citizen, a permanent resident of
               | Ireland or Northern Ireland, or has been domiciled on the
               | island of Ireland for 3 of the past 4 years
               | 
               | You're no longer automatically entitled to Irish
               | citizenship via a grandparent born in Ireland if your
               | Irish parent was born overseas _unless_ the parent 's
               | birth was registered with an Irish diplomatic mission.
        
           | madcaptenor wrote:
           | What happens when Tuvalu is uninhabitable due to rising sea
           | level? If .tv continues to exist, does that money go to the
           | Tuvaluan diaspora?
        
         | James_K wrote:
         | > doesn't seem to understand that country TLDs are actually, at
         | least initially, intended for the people of that country.
         | 
         | This is a very odd interpretation of an article which is
         | essentially saying "don't buy ccTLDs unless you live there".
        
           | seszett wrote:
           | That aspect is only talked about at the very end almost as an
           | aside, and the phrasing is "[some ccTLDs are] more likely to
           | be ok [than other ccTLDs]", "it _might_ be somewhat safer "
           | and "gTLDs are at least lower risk than ccTLDs".
           | 
           | This certainly suggests a different conclusion than "don't
           | buy ccTLDs unless you live there".
           | 
           | I would say the conclusion of this article is actually "don't
           | buy ccTLDs except maybe in some cases that I won't even
           | discuss since they seem so rare to me". I would say on the
           | other hand that buying a domain with the ccTLD of the country
           | you're operating in is a must, and especially so if you're
           | operating in a few neighbouring countries.
        
             | James_K wrote:
             | > This certainly suggests a different conclusion than
             | "don't buy ccTLDs unless you live there".
             | 
             | From the article's conclusion:
             | 
             | > Are ccTLDs Ever Useful?
             | 
             | > I certainly don't think it's a good idea to register a
             | domain under a ccTLD for "vanity" purposes: because it
             | makes a word, is the same as a file extension you like, or
             | because it looks cool.
             | 
             | > Finally, it might be somewhat safer to register under a
             | ccTLD if you live in the location involved. At least then
             | you might have a better idea of whether your domain is
             | likely to get pulled out from underneath you.
             | Unfortunately, as the .eu example shows, living somewhere
             | today is no guarantee you'll still be living there
             | tomorrow, even if you don't move house.
             | 
             | He makes the fair point that, even if they are intended for
             | residents, it may not always be safe for them either.
        
               | dbalatero wrote:
               | Taking one example, a price hike from $25 -> $75/yr
               | affects everyone, including residents.
        
               | Symbiote wrote:
               | Some of the more fashionable CCTLDs have discounts for
               | actual local businesses/individuals.
        
             | mthoms wrote:
             | >That aspect is only talked about at the very end almost as
             | an aside
             | 
             | It's talked about at the end because that's usually where
             | the conclusion goes. Everything talked about before that is
             | providing evidence for said conclusion.
             | 
             | What an odd interpretation. To me it reads as the entire
             | point of the article.
        
           | WhitneyLand wrote:
           | In this context is "odd interpretation" similar in meaning to
           | a passive aggressive form of RTFM?
        
         | tiborsaas wrote:
         | > they should never have been available to entities that don't
         | have ties to the country
         | 
         | That would have just opened the door to proxy-ownership. You
         | register a domain under a company and they let you use it.
        
           | mananaysiempre wrote:
           | Which is absolutely something that happens with ccTLDs that
           | impose that kind of policy today.
        
           | jeroenhd wrote:
           | That proxy ownership takes significantly more time and money
           | than the domain itself. I think it would prevent "queer.af"
           | situations quite well.
        
             | plagiarist wrote:
             | .af is so beautiful for vanity domains but only someone
             | with a complete and total ignorance of multiple subjects
             | would register one for serious use. Yeah, at least
             | requiring a proxy you might have someone with enough
             | knowledge to point out the mistake there.
        
               | trimethylpurine wrote:
               | Seems more like a statement than a mistake.
        
               | plorg wrote:
               | In the case of queer.af (as noted in TFA) they registered
               | the domain in 2018 when the government was significantly
               | different, and, recognizing the political situation, were
               | working on moving to a different one.
        
               | trimethylpurine wrote:
               | Was the former government empathetic to that? I wouldn't
               | have thought so. I'd be interested to hear from someone
               | who knows about it.
        
               | plorg wrote:
               | On the one hand perhaps yes because they did not lose
               | their registration under that government. Also for good
               | or ill that government was under some amount of influence
               | from the United States which, while not perfect, could be
               | seen as offering some amount of influence or protection.
               | On the other hand, it was probably more the case that, in
               | the absence of the Taliban, the people creating the site
               | simply did not have the same concerns as they later
               | would.
        
               | et-al wrote:
               | What about the early 2000s adoption of .ly (Libya)?
        
             | Gormo wrote:
             | Not really. There already are some ccTLDs that do require a
             | local nexus, and the registrars just incorporate trustee
             | services into the domain registration. There's a bit of a
             | price premium, but nothing major, and the time impact
             | usually amounts to filling out one extra form when
             | purchasing a domain.
        
               | jeroenhd wrote:
               | In that case the raised price will still impact the
               | likelihood of someone unaware of the ccTLD specifics
               | getting their domains registered in countries they've
               | never even heard of.
        
             | lobsterthief wrote:
             | "Significantly more time and money" just means bigger
             | companies will have more of a monopoly on those domains,
             | which is also not good.
        
               | jeroenhd wrote:
               | I don't think I've ever noticed a problem with this. The
               | only difference I can find is that the "buy this domain
               | for $4000" scammers have a different default language.
        
           | victorbjorklund wrote:
           | Yup. .NO has restrictions on their domain names. And that
           | happens with them. Just ends up with less transparency and
           | more costs (that doesn't go to internet infrastructure but
           | lawyers etc).
        
             | lolinder wrote:
             | It may happen with them, but it's much more rare than with
             | .ly and .io and .ai. I can't recall ever seeing a .no.
        
         | sofixa wrote:
         | > I would argue that the main problem is that they should never
         | have been available to entities that don't have ties to the
         | country.
         | 
         | That's already the case for plenty of ccTLDs. .eu, .it., .bg
         | and I'm sure many others are only available to citizens or
         | legal entities registered in that country.
        
         | usrbinbash wrote:
         | > that doesn't seem to understand that country TLDs are
         | actually, at least initially, intended for the people of that
         | country.
         | 
         | What something is intended for in some hypothetical, ideal
         | setting, is a moot point given that the countries have full
         | control over their ccTLD.
         | 
         | That's the issue, and the author identifies it correctly.
        
         | RHSeeger wrote:
         | > I certainly don't think it's a good idea to register a domain
         | under a ccTLD for "vanity" purposes: because it makes a word,
         | is the same as a file extension you like, or because it looks
         | cool.
         | 
         | Well, they're NOT vanity domains. They were created
         | specifically for countries, to be owned by countries and
         | controlled by countries. The fact that it happens to look neat
         | to use that domain doesn't change that fact. When you start
         | using such a domain, you should know full well that you are
         | tying yourself to a resource that you could lose at any time,
         | for any reason. Tying the health of your business to such a
         | condition seems crazy to me.
        
           | dundarious wrote:
           | They said domain _under_ a ccTLD, so they 're clearly not
           | talking about ccTLDs themselves as vanity domains.
        
         | monooso wrote:
         | > ...that doesn't seem to understand that country TLDs are
         | actually, at least initially, intended for the people of that
         | country.
         | 
         | The author appears to understand that perfectly well:
         | 
         | > Those ccTLDs that clearly represent and are associated with a
         | particular country are more likely to be OK... > Unfortunately,
         | ccTLD registries have a disconcerting habit of changing their
         | minds on whether they serve their geographic locality...
        
           | croemer wrote:
           | Then they should have added "US" here in the first few
           | paragraphs: "Generic TLDs are what most [US] organisations
           | and individuals register their domains under:"
        
             | jake200 wrote:
             | I fail to see how that is helpful. Is the statement untrue
             | without the [US] annotation? The author explicitly mentions
             | that a user is the best judge of their country when
             | deciding on whether to use that country's ccTLD. That's
             | pretty implicit to me that the author is considering a
             | larger audience than the US.
        
               | felixfbecker wrote:
               | Yes. Growing up in a non-US country, almost every website
               | I interacted with or was advertised was the TLD of my
               | home country. It was incredibly rare to see global TLDs.
               | It usually implied it was a multi-national company, and
               | even those often registered an additional domain locally
               | because people are more familiar with it. I would guess
               | this is the same for most countries except the US, which
               | makes that statement untrue.
        
               | cqqxo4zV46cp wrote:
               | Yup. A mistake of the Internet that'll surely never be
               | corrected for at least the next 50 years at least, is rhe
               | US not using a ccTLD like everyone else. Not being able
               | to differentiate between a US and 'global' presence based
               | on domain name is a tad annoying. The taxonomy is
               | immensely useful.
               | 
               | And please for the love of God nobody here lecture me
               | about the history of the Internet. I know why it is the
               | way it is. But it's a frustrating legacy quirk. Anyone
               | that sees it as anything else is just buying into the
               | "the US is the universe's 'main country'" BS.
        
               | nightpool wrote:
               | > I would guess this is the same for most countries
               | except the US, which makes that statement untrue
               | 
               | Only if there are more organizations using ccTLDs outside
               | of the US than organizations using generic domains within
               | it.
               | 
               | https://domainnamestat.com/statistics/tldtype/all
               | indicates that strictly based on domain registration
               | counts, ccTLDs are around 39% of total domain
               | registrations. So not nothing, but also not a majority.
        
               | tuukkah wrote:
               | > _Only if there are more organizations using ccTLDs
               | outside of the US than organizations using generic
               | domains within it._
               | 
               | "Is the US larger than the world outside it?"
        
         | Lucent wrote:
         | This is backwards. ccTLDs are much higher risk than gTLDs
         | operated by commercial entities because those entities are
         | governed by ICANN which has pricing requirements and a plan in
         | place to transfer them if the entity goes under.
        
         | AdamH12113 wrote:
         | The whole TLD system is kind of broken and has been for
         | decades, ever since companies starting buying the .net and .org
         | versions of their domain names to go along with the (then) all-
         | important .com. The TLDs were originally designed as a taxonomy
         | of organization types. There was a fair bit of discussion about
         | dropping TLDs altogether after the internet went mainstream and
         | .com domain names became much scarcer, but there never seemed
         | to be enough agreement to make it happen.
         | 
         | It's interesting to think about how much of the old internet
         | and its protocols were built around the assumption that
         | internet-capable computers and (especially) networks were owned
         | and tightly-administered by institutions, not individuals.
        
           | Terr_ wrote:
           | If I had my druthers, top level domains would exclusively be
           | for sovereign legal jurisdictions. (And _maybe_ EU or UN.)
           | 
           | That way it would at least match all the indirect rules
           | imposed by those jurisdictions, such as treaties over
           | conflicting trademarks, and it would be clear which courts
           | should get involved in any lawsuits or appeals, etc.
           | 
           | It's kind of a Conway's Law thing: The system will suck the
           | least when the code-organization is aligned to the group-
           | entities.
           | 
           | P.S.: Sure, if you launched a new global company you'd want
           | to register lots of different domains, but that's already
           | true _anyway_.
        
         | throwanem wrote:
         | > they should never have been available to entities that don't
         | have ties to the country
         | 
         | And lose the revenue? Caveat emptor.
        
       | NoboruWataya wrote:
       | > To register (and maintain) a domain name ending in .eu, you
       | have to be a resident of the EU.
       | 
       | Tiny nit (and I only bring it up because it is relevant to me),
       | but you can also own a .eu domain if you are a _citizen_ of the
       | EU (or EEA), wherever you are resident.
       | 
       | This rule may have been brought in as a result of Brexit, as the
       | Europa website says:
       | 
       | > Previously restricted to residents of EU/EEA countries, any EU
       | citizen can now register a .eu domain name wherever they are in
       | the world.
       | 
       | https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/faqs/eu-domain-name...
       | 
       | The point still stand, of course. It was (and remains) a headache
       | for a lot of people. I still haven't told my registrar I no
       | longer live in the EU because although I am (as an EU citizen)
       | legally entitled to my .eu domain, I don't trust them to
       | understand that.
        
         | joelccr wrote:
         | Some EU countries also have the same policy for their ccTLDs,
         | although I believe the EU rules are that they aren't allowed to
         | restrict to just their own country's citizens/residents like
         | others worldwide do, they can only restrict non-EU
         | registration.
         | 
         | Caused me some grief post-Brexit when my firstname.tld domain
         | happened to be some French islands and AFNIC started indicating
         | they'd enforce it. Fortunately I have the .uk now.
        
           | tialaramex wrote:
           | It wouldn't make any sense to require a specific EU country.
           | The EU's Freedom of Movement rules mean that on the whole all
           | of any EU member state's citizens are welcome to go wherever
           | they please within the EU, so you can't require "citizenship"
           | or "residence" of a specific country.
           | 
           | The way this comes about is interesting. First up the EC (the
           | predecessor entity to the EU) is a trade bloc, so it wants to
           | ensure you can move say money and goods around, not much use
           | being a trading bloc if it's there's a lot of taxes and
           | paperwork to move your partly finished Doodads from Germany
           | to France, then when they're finished ship them to Italy for
           | sale. But wait, if we can only move _money_ and _goods_ we
           | create a race to the bottom, the workers would be trapped, so
           | move production to wherever the most desperate workers are
           | and pay them as little as possible. That doesn 't sound like
           | we've made anything better. So they say _workers_ can move
           | too, if you want to live somewhere with better pay, or a
           | nicer climate, that 's cool. And then the EU's court says
           | well, what exactly is a worker? Is Bob a worker if he just
           | moved to your country hoping to find a job? Does he get to
           | bring his elderly grandmother? _She 's_ not going to get a
           | job, how is she a worker? So they decide no, not just
           | workers, all people. All EU people are welcome to move
           | anywhere inside the EU.
        
             | blibble wrote:
             | > All EU people are welcome to move anywhere inside the EU.
             | 
             | this is not true, it is still "freedom of movement (for
             | workers)"
             | 
             | the granny example is explicitly not permitted unless they
             | have sufficient funds to support themselves without the
             | target states' assistance (meaning independently wealthy)
             | 
             | you can be deported otherwise
        
               | jefftk wrote:
               | If you move somewhere to work at age 62 and then retire
               | at 65, can you stay there? Do you have to become a
               | citizen first?
               | 
               | (Just curious; I know this is a tangent!)
        
               | jmopp wrote:
               | Presumably you would have built up a pension in your
               | previous country, which you can draw from. That would
               | satisfy the requirement for an independent source of
               | income. When Britain was in the EU it was (and still is)
               | common for pensioners to live in Spain.
        
               | Symbiote wrote:
               | You gain the right to permanent residence after 5 years
               | of residence under the other conditions.
               | 
               | The 65 year old would need to live from their pension for
               | a couple more years.
        
               | croemer wrote:
               | The comment you're responding to is wrong. Yes of course
               | you can stay there, you can even move there post-
               | retirement. You just can't get the very lowest level of
               | benefits unless you've lived there for long enough.
        
               | croemer wrote:
               | > the granny example is explicitly not permitted
               | 
               | This is totally wrong.
               | 
               | The granny can get her pension anywhere in the EU, no
               | "independent wealth" required.
               | 
               | There are some restrictions if you have no means to
               | support yourself and require benefits, but the
               | restrictions are definitely not as broad as "granny needs
               | much money on her bank account"
               | 
               | Read: https://commission.europa.eu/strategy-and-
               | policy/policies/ju... and links contained therein
        
               | blibble wrote:
               | not all grannies are of pensionable age
               | 
               | your linked page alludes to this, without details
               | 
               | > In order to stay in another EU country for more than
               | three months, EU citizens have to meet certain conditions
               | depending on their status (for example worker, self-
               | employed, student, etc.) and may be asked to comply with
               | administrative formalities.
               | 
               | if you follow the wizard on your page you get this:
               | 
               | https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/residence
               | -ri...
        
         | nativeit wrote:
         | My registrar only requires that I have an EU mailing address,
         | so for the handful of EU domains I maintain I have an
         | astonishingly cheap PO box in Spain (I live in the US).
         | Presumably, there's a trash can somewhere outside Barcelona
         | that has a bunch of snailmail domain spam addressed to me.
        
           | maxcoder4 wrote:
           | Your registrar only verifies that you have an EU mailing
           | address. You can absolutely lose your domains if they for
           | some reason audit you and decide you are in breach if their
           | terms
           | 
           | This is extremely unlikely - I wouldn't lose sleep over this.
           | This will only happen when you're doing something
           | controversial/illegal and your registrar is actively trying
           | to legally get rid of you.
        
             | xoa wrote:
             | > _This is extremely unlikely - I wouldn 't lose sleep over
             | this. This will only happen when you're doing something
             | controversial/illegal and your registrar is actively trying
             | to legally get rid of you._
             | 
             | But per the subject of the article I think it's worth
             | taking very seriously from multiple angles. Domains are
             | something a lot of people care about for a very long time,
             | their entire lives, or the case of a business its whole
             | existence as an entity. My oldest core domains hit their
             | 25th anniversary this year. A lot can happen over the
             | course of decades, including vast changes in what counts as
             | "controversial/illegal". The winds of politics can and have
             | shifted, repeatedly, a great deal, and technological
             | advance has for better and very much for worse reduced a
             | lot of gray area and informal aspects of law/culture that
             | people depended on (though boosting others).
             | 
             | If one is counting on "audits are very expensive and thus
             | receive significant political push back" it's worth
             | reflecting on whether another 25 years of AI and a host of
             | developments might change that. Could the subject of EU
             | domain ownership at any point become a hot topic? Are there
             | possible financial/social incentives that might push
             | someone to make it a hot topic (absolutely!)? Etc etc, but
             | I think part of the point of the article and certainly
             | something I've come to consider more myself is it's worth
             | taking a longer view more often when considering
             | foundational stuff.
        
       | donatj wrote:
       | I remember in the late 90s there were at least a couple companies
       | promoting alternative TLDs outside the standard set. I have no
       | idea how that was implemented. Just special DNS servers with
       | extra TLDs? Or something more involved on the OS levels?
       | 
       | Seems like there could be an appetite for such a thing these
       | days. TLDs outside ICANNs control.
        
         | seszett wrote:
         | It was an alternative DNS but I forgot which it was.
         | 
         | You had to switch to these DNS servers, which the added
         | "benefit" that DNS queries returning NXDOMAIN were hijacked to
         | show you ads.
         | 
         | I don't think this has any usefulness anymore, since gTLDs
         | exist.
        
           | donatj wrote:
           | gTLDs cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. You can run your
           | own DNS servers for waaay less.
           | 
           | I think the usefulness could come from community controlled
           | TLDs. Might not be a mainstream thing but free libre TLDs for
           | open source projects and what not?
        
             | Towaway69 wrote:
             | Something similar to what Let's Encrypt did to the SSL
             | Certificate market. Before they came along, SSL root
             | certificate were way over priced and overnight, the market
             | simply disappeared.
             | 
             | The same should happen to gTLDs.
        
             | Ayesh wrote:
             | IIRC, the cost is ~$200k one time and ~$25/yr. Shitcoins
             | get magnitudes higher crowd funding. Not impossible to do
             | at all.
        
             | alfons_foobar wrote:
             | On a technical level, this is very simple - just change the
             | list of DNS root servers on all "participating" machines to
             | point to your own new nameservers.
             | 
             | But then you have the problem: Who manages your community
             | controlled domains? Who keeps track of who owns which
             | domain?
        
           | jesprenj wrote:
           | OpenNIC is a project that replaces and extends the official
           | DNS root maintained by Verisign.
           | 
           | http://opennic.org
        
             | Tijdreiziger wrote:
             | Are there any notable websites actually on that
             | infrastructure?
             | 
             | The 'Project Showcase' only shows a single example.
        
               | duskwuff wrote:
               | No. It's an old hobby project which has nearly fizzled
               | out; the web site hasn't been updated in years.
               | 
               | Alternate roots are on thin ice in general nowadays,
               | especially as there's no reasonable way to safely issue
               | TLS certificates for domains which aren't under the ICANN
               | root. (Running your own CA introduces a lot of messy
               | trust issues and is inadvisable.)
        
               | jesprenj wrote:
               | Maybe if we switched from the current state of PKI with
               | CAs to DNSSEC and DANE/TLSA, it would be easier.
               | 
               | But doing that would mean to either trust the current
               | resolver you are using, which is unacceptable, as it's
               | sometimes cloudflare or google, or running your own
               | resolver on every device -- which also does not work. It
               | is absolutely crucial for the DNS system we have today
               | that there's a small number of resolvers that have large
               | caches, otherwise root servers would blow up. Unless we
               | massively start implementing some novel RFCs.
        
         | AndyMcConachie wrote:
         | I can't think of one instance where ICANN has told a TLD to
         | remove a domain at the second level. Maybe it happened in the
         | past, but I'm drawing a blank.
        
         | zokier wrote:
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_DNS_root
        
         | donkulous wrote:
         | I think the common one was "new.net" and yes, it was just some
         | kind of software extension that either added to or replaced
         | your DNS queries. If you didn't have the software installed,
         | you could still get to, say example.faketld by going to
         | example.faketld.new.net
         | 
         | I remember them pushing to get ISPs to use their custom DNS,
         | and I think there was least one major ISP that implemented it
         | natively.
        
         | maxcoder4 wrote:
         | There are obvious examples of tlds outside of ICANN control:
         | 
         | * OpenNIC domains * .onion, .i2p and other alternative networks
         | * .bit, .eth and other cryptocurrency backed domains
        
       | unlog wrote:
       | My ccTLD gives me much more confidence than some random company
       | that rents TLDs governed by who knows. It's provided by my ISP
       | which is owned by the state, which serves the population.
        
         | arielcostas wrote:
         | > which is owned by the state, which serves the population
         | 
         | Until it doesn't. Corruption and coups are a thing.
        
           | Aerbil313 wrote:
           | Then what?
           | 
           | I know DNS has a terrible centralized design, but what is the
           | alternative?
        
         | usrbinbash wrote:
         | Good for you, but...
         | 
         | a) that's not the case in many places, as demonstrated by what
         | happened in Afghanistan, where control over the ccTLD now lies
         | with a group of religious extremists
         | 
         | b) you have no guarantee that the happy state of affairs with
         | your ccTLD will continue. Governments change, and so do
         | politics.
        
           | hnbad wrote:
           | Sure but all of this is true for gTLDs, with a different set
           | of caveats.
           | 
           | Corporations don't exist in a vacuum, they're subject to the
           | laws of the jurisdictions they're incorporated in.
           | Corporations aren't permanent and unchanging, they can pivot
           | in unexpected ways or enact arbitrary decisions that may
           | affect you.
           | 
           | Most people just get to pretend gTLDs are safe from politics
           | because most gTLDs are ultimately under US jurisidiction and
           | even outside the US we often treat that as the default. The
           | mistake of the people using dot-af domains was to treat af as
           | if this is also true for them - which even prior to the US
           | retreat wasn't a safe bet.
           | 
           | What's also missing from the discourse around `queer.af` is
           | that they were merely one domain of many affected because the
           | Taliban withdrew from Gandi (among others?), not just the
           | people running that Mastodon instance. It's just the most
           | obvious example because of the nature of social media.
        
         | yard2010 wrote:
         | If you happen to live in a state that serves its population
         | that is
        
           | palata wrote:
           | Obviously. I think we just have to accept that some people
           | trust their government, and some people don't. There is no
           | rule there: use the one you trust (and preferably use the
           | ccTLD only if you have something to do with that country,
           | because that's the whole point).
        
       | nicky0 wrote:
       | I'm still salty about the .eu thing. I was an EU citizen for 42
       | years of my life and I used a .eu domain as my primary email
       | address for many years. Not only did the EU decide I could not
       | longer have it, they've made it available for anyone to register.
       | 
       | Hundreds of my website registrations were tied to that email
       | address. Thankfully I had sufficient advance notice to tediously
       | re-register the majority of sites to a non-.eu domain email. But
       | there are still a few I didn't catch.
       | 
       | Thanks for that, EU. (Edit: thanks also to the Brexit voters, yes
       | .... but I still contend that the EU could have made an
       | accomodation for existing registrants to hold onto their domains,
       | instead of take them away and re-list them for anyone to get.
       | 
       | Edit 2: Of course, any Brit well-resourced enough to set up some
       | kind of shell company in EU to hold on to their domain will have
       | been able to keep it. So the claim that "UK people should not be
       | able to own .eu domain. It's confusing and misleading" does not
       | hold water ... it's perfectly possible to do so even today by
       | various trickery. So this decision only affects regular people.
       | Not big business or the very wealthy.)
        
         | dijit wrote:
         | I guess it's a weird thought experiment, but what if scotland
         | left the UK, should they still have rights to use .uk tld's?
         | Maybe yes for historical reasons but it is a twee bit odd to
         | have what is essentially a foreign entity representing
         | themselves with your name.
         | 
         | Do you UK? Or have you always resided outside the EU?
        
           | nicky0 wrote:
           | I would argue for a "grandfathering in" provision. Both in
           | the Brexit case and your hypothetical Scexit.
           | 
           | So, if Scotland became independent, the remaining UK might
           | close the .uk ccTLD for new Scottish registrations but
           | existing domain holders should have the right to retain their
           | registrations indefinitely.
           | 
           | I think it's ethically wrong to forcible take away someone's
           | domain name without _exceptionally_ good reason (such as
           | abusive use of domain or whatever).
           | 
           | (Yes, I am a UK citizen. By "the .eu thing" I was referring
           | to the situation as described in the article.)
        
             | kolp wrote:
             | First, nobody owns a domain; it is assigned to a
             | registrant, by the registry, via the registrar. No domain
             | "owner" has ownership rights; you have the right to use the
             | domain subject to the rules of the registry. If the rules
             | of the registry require the registrant to be a citizen or
             | body of the EU and the registrant no longer meets that
             | requirement, the registrant loses the right to use the
             | domain.
             | 
             | Your proposed solution of grandfathering existing
             | registrations would cause confusion or uncertainty for end
             | users (site visitors) who could not ascertain with
             | confidence that the organisation with which they were
             | dealing was actually in the EU, or registered to an EU
             | citizen or body.
             | 
             | Your assertion that the EU enforced the established rules
             | because they were "being dicks" to the UK is similar to the
             | anti-EU tropes spouted by the anti-EU press in the UK, eg
             | the EU is punishing Brits by making them use non-EU
             | passport lanes, restricting their visits to 90 days, etc.
             | Your fellow citizens voted (unfortunately) to leave the
             | organisation and these are the consequences of non-
             | membership. If you decide to leave your golf club, you
             | don't get to continue using the golf course and clubhouse.
        
               | nicky0 wrote:
               | > Your proposed solution of grandfathering existing
               | registrations would cause confusion or uncertainty for
               | end users (site visitors) who could not ascertain with
               | confidence that the organisation with which they were
               | dealing was actually in the EU, or registered to an EU
               | citizen or body.
               | 
               | I don't buy that argument. A UK citizen can still
               | register .eu TLD through a company they control in the
               | EU, if they have the resources to do so. The EU's
               | decision to rescind registrations for former EU citizens
               | only really affects non-wealthy private citizens. The
               | wealthy, and large companies, can get around the rule.
               | 
               | Secondly, there is precendent for this kind of thing.
               | When Soviet Union broke up, .su domains registrants were
               | allowed to keep their registrations despite now being
               | Ukrainian or Estonian or whatever citizens. Similarly
               | when Yugoslavia broke up, .yu registrants could keep
               | theirs, they weren't forced to surrender.
               | 
               | Edit: And a union of nation states is not like a golf
               | club. You cannot reduce the argument by analogy to a
               | sports club membership. A political union is much more
               | complex than that.
               | 
               | Citizenship, free movement etc., or course those could
               | not continue after Brexit. Those are politically
               | fundamental.
               | 
               | But when it comes to internet's DNS system, people have
               | lives and businesses that are contingent on maintining
               | exclusive control of a given set of characters on a DNS
               | server. Basic security of the internet is built around
               | the expectation of being able to maintain indefinite
               | control of a domain.
               | 
               | Sure, the EU rules said domain owners must reside in
               | EU/EEA but I expect that the possibility of a country
               | leaving EU was not considered when that rule was written
               | (certainly, I did not consider it at the time I
               | registered the domain). It would be prudent and
               | reasonable to revisit those rules in light of such a
               | significant and unexpexted event as Brexit and the
               | significant problems it would cause to affected existing
               | .eu domain registrants. But no, this was simply
               | impossible -- rules are rules! /s
               | 
               | Edit 2: Indeed, the EU _did_ rewrite the rules. Because
               | EU citizens remaining residing in the UK would also lose
               | their registrations, the EU rewrote to rules to allow
               | citizenship as well as residence to be a qualification
               | for domain registration. So the argument that the rules
               | were fixed in stone and known by everyone, and so should
               | not be changed, does not hold water either. The EU _did_
               | change the rules to account for Brexit. But chose to do
               | harm to existing domain registrants from the UK anyway
               | for no apparent benefit to anyone.
        
               | dijit wrote:
               | If I look at the differences between what cite as
               | precedent and the UK/EU situation it's that the EU
               | continues functioning whereas Yugoslavia and Soviet Union
               | did not.
               | 
               | Maybe more impetuous to protect EU institutions from
               | impersonation? Not sure.
        
               | WindyMiller wrote:
               | > I don't buy that argument. A UK citizen can still
               | register .eu TLD through a company they control in the
               | EU, if they have the resources to do so. The EU's
               | decision to rescind registrations for former EU citizens
               | only really affects non-wealthy private citizens. The
               | wealthy, and large companies, can get around the rule.
               | 
               | Regrettably, this is true of most rules.
               | 
               | > But when it comes to internet's DNS system, people have
               | lives and businesses that are contingent on maintining
               | exclusive control of a given set of characters on a DNS
               | server.
               | 
               | People had lives and businesses that were contingent on a
               | great many things that were lost to Brexit.
               | 
               | It seems like maybe you think of the TLD problem as a
               | special case because it affected you so directly and
               | significantly and is within your area of expertise. (I
               | don't mean this as a criticism, it's completely normal
               | and I've no doubt I would do the same.) But really I
               | don't think it's particularly different from all of the
               | other administrative problems that Brexit created.
        
               | Symbiote wrote:
               | > But when it comes to internet's DNS system, people have
               | lives and businesses
               | 
               | Seriously?
               | 
               | People had lives and businesses reliant on the UK being a
               | member of the EU -- there were hundreds of stories of
               | people who were spending lots of time in the EU caring
               | for relatives, or running their business, but not enough
               | time to claim residence in the EU.
               | 
               | That all got thrown under the bus by the Tories, the
               | domain names is a minor detail in comparison.
               | 
               | (Note the .yu domain was removed in 2010 after a 3 year
               | transition period, but for some reason .su remains.)
        
           | razakel wrote:
           | .uk is not actually a ccTLD - the country code is really gb.
           | .gb is delegated, but unused.
        
             | dijit wrote:
             | Oh wow, really? That's insane and such an absurd oversight.
             | 
             | Given that the government literally uses gov.uk and ac.uk
             | for academic institutions.
             | 
             | EDIT: seems one of us is wrong;
             | 
             | > .uk is the Internet country code top-level domain (ccTLD)
             | for the United Kingdom. It was first registered in July
             | 1985, seven months after the original generic top-level
             | domains such as .com and the first country code after .us.
        
               | razakel wrote:
               | It's in a weird state where it was manually delegated
               | before the ISO-based ones were created. So it's not
               | actually a ccTLD, but is treated as one.
        
               | samatman wrote:
               | This is not correct. `.uk` is a ccTLD, and it isn't the
               | ISO 3166 code for the UK, which is `gb`.
               | 
               | These are two different systems with substantial overlap.
        
         | gpvos wrote:
         | Assuming this is because of Brexit, it was the UK that decided
         | that, so you should thank them. The rule that the domain is
         | EU/EEA-only already existed and was clear.
        
           | nicky0 wrote:
           | Well, I'm a citizen of the UK and I voted in the referendum
           | to stay in the EU.
           | 
           | The EU could have agreed to change its TLD ownershipo rules
           | rules (which they actually have done recently, so the rules
           | are not set in stone) to introduce a grandfathering-in
           | provision if they had wanted to. Close it for new
           | registrations but allow existing resistratnts to continue to
           | renew.
           | 
           | But it seems they chose to be dicks about it, perhaps to
           | spite the UK I guess. Maybe to send a warning to other
           | truculent EU countries. I can't say I understand their
           | reasoning. Perhaps just petty bureaucracy at work.
           | 
           | But now that the precedent is set, other EU citizens should
           | be very wary of using .eu domains. There's no guarantee that
           | your country will remain in the EU forever either.
        
             | ithkuil wrote:
             | Doing that for spite is a very short-sighted thing indeed.
             | 
             | I think Hanlon's razor offers a better explanation
        
               | blibble wrote:
               | it was spite: the EU Commission explicitly said it wanted
               | those domains cancelled and that the rules would not be
               | changed
        
             | mschuster91 wrote:
             | > But it seems they chose to be dicks about it, perhaps to
             | spite the UK I guess. Maybe to send a warning to other
             | truculent EU countries.
             | 
             | Well, of course the EU chose to be dicks about it - the
             | various UK governments did all their best to ensure an as-
             | chaotic-as-possible Brexit, constantly derailing
             | discussions, even risking setting the Northern Ireland
             | civil war alight again and demand that the EU concede to
             | prevent that.
             | 
             | It was dumb enough that Brexit happened in the first place
             | (some say, the vote was close enough that Russian
             | propaganda made the key difference), but the way that
             | Cameron, May, Johnson, Truss and now Sunak have handled
             | Brexit made an already bad situation _even worse_. Had they
             | shown even the slightest bit of respect and solution-
             | oriented thinking towards the EU, the EU negotiators would
             | have been far more interested in solutions that don 't mess
             | up stuff too much.
        
               | alibarber wrote:
               | Yes but... Some current EU states have not exactly
               | covered themselves in glory whilst their elected
               | governments have rode roughshod over some of the EU's
               | most fundamental principles, and what sanctions have
               | their citizens faced?
               | 
               | I'm not proud of the UK when it comes to Brexit, but I
               | can't take the whole 'follow the rules of the club / stay
               | in it to enjoy the benefits' seriously anymore.
        
               | mschuster91 wrote:
               | I assume you're referring to pre-Tusk Poland and Hungary?
               | If yes, I agree with you... the key problem is that the
               | EU has been founded on the implicit assumption that its
               | members would follow the law and if they wouldn't they
               | would at least follow the courts. That held up for a long
               | time, and then populism took over, but by the time that
               | was realized there were too many countries in the EU to
               | ever get consensus to truly fix this issue.
               | 
               | American politics suffer from the same issue IMHO, their
               | system can't cope with the Republicans being willfully
               | obstructionist for decades now.
        
               | alibarber wrote:
               | Indeed - and so this explains why I roll my eyes at silly
               | comments along the lines as 'they [Brits] voted for it,
               | let them stand in a queue at the airport or lose their
               | .eu domains'.
               | 
               | It would seem to be more equitable to me a least (someone
               | who voted remain and lives in the EU) if the ballot had
               | presented the options of "Remain" or "Remain and ignore
               | all of the rules". But I don't think that would be
               | particularly popular with the rest of the EU populace,
               | and yet, effectively, it's what's happening.
        
               | mschuster91 wrote:
               | > Indeed - and so this explains why I roll my eyes at
               | silly comments along the lines as 'they [Brits] voted for
               | it, let them stand in a queue at the airport or lose
               | their .eu domains'.
               | 
               | For me, the most sad thing to see was that despite all of
               | these issues and the utterly insane blunders of the last
               | years that weren't even related to Brexit or Covid, the
               | Tories are still in charge...
        
               | alibarber wrote:
               | I have a slightly controversial opinion on this in that I
               | apportion quite a lot of the blame onto Labour at the
               | time too - pre Johnson (i.e. the Corbyn years) what
               | effective opposition was there? Why did they then perform
               | so utterly poorly in the election? It's one thing to be
               | popular with a vocal segment of enthusiasts, but
               | unfortunately they only count votes.
               | 
               | And yes, first past the post and all that, but there was
               | still an incredibly clear swing on the popular vote (-8%)
               | away from them.
        
               | nicky0 wrote:
               | Well we haven't actually had an election since 2019
        
             | autoexec wrote:
             | I don't think it's fair to expect the EU to bend over
             | backwards to accommodate the defectors after how they
             | behaved. The UK knew what would happen and they choose that
             | path anyway throwing a large number of UK citizens under
             | the bus. It's unfortunate that they made that choice, but
             | it's not the fault of the EU and it's not the EU's
             | responsibility.
             | 
             | It also seems a bit unfair to suggest that .eu domains
             | aren't dependable as if the same thing could happen without
             | warning to any member country considering that the
             | precedent established is that it would only happen to
             | countries that insist on it happening to them.
        
               | razakel wrote:
               | >The UK knew what would happen and they choose that path
               | anyway throwing a large number of UK citizens under the
               | bus.
               | 
               | The _politicians_ definitely all know it wouid be a
               | disaster - Gove and Johnson 's faces on the day of the
               | result look like they're at a funeral.
               | 
               | The _public_ , however, insisted that "we knew what we
               | was voting for", verbally abusing anyone who asked them
               | what that actually was, and now are claiming that "this
               | isn't what we voted for". Well, it was, and you were told
               | so. Let me play the world's smallest violin in sympathy.
        
               | nicky0 wrote:
               | > The public
               | 
               | 51.8% of the voting public
        
             | lynx23 wrote:
             | > Well, I'm a citizen of the UK and I voted in the
             | referendum to stay in the EU.
             | 
             | Welcome to democracy.
             | 
             | As an EU citizen, I am against allowing leaving countries
             | to keep their priviledges. Either in or out. But this kind
             | of whining from the no-brexit fraction is really pathetic.
        
           | midasuni wrote:
           | OPs citizenship was removed from him without his approval,
           | based on the minority votes of U.K. and foreigners living in
           | the U.K., it is a travesty.
        
             | autoexec wrote:
             | That is a travesty, but still the UK's fault for allowing
             | it to happen in the first place not the EU's
        
               | Macha wrote:
               | See also the periodic complaints about UK tourists being
               | discriminated against in airports for having the slower
               | non-EU line.
        
               | nicky0 wrote:
               | Only idiots would compain about passport control queues.
               | It's nothing like the .eu domain issue at all. A costless
               | administrative accomodation could easily have been made.
        
             | vdaea wrote:
             | If you can't be arsed to vote it's because you don't care
             | about the outcome.
        
               | palata wrote:
               | The OP may have voted and been in the minority.
        
         | WindyMiller wrote:
         | If this happened because you're in the UK, it's not the EU's
         | fault we left and you're blaming the wrong people.
        
           | nicky0 wrote:
           | Let's not get into Brexit mud-slinging. I simply contend that
           | EU could have made a more reasonable accomodation for
           | existing UK holders of .eu domains.
        
             | WindyMiller wrote:
             | I think it's perfectly reasonable not to offer the UK
             | special treatment over other nations. It would certainly
             | have been more _generous_ to allow UK registrants to retain
             | their domains, but it doesn 't seem to me more reasonable.
             | The EU's responsibility is to its members, and they
             | negotiated the withdrawal agreement accordingly.
             | 
             | The UK could, of course, have made access to the .eu TLD a
             | higher priority when negotiating the withdrawal agreement.
             | I expect we could have secured it. I don't see any reason
             | to believe that the EU witheld it unreasonably.
             | 
             | I don't think it's mud-slinging to point out that the EU
             | didn't kick us out!
        
             | lynx23 wrote:
             | Could have, but shouldn't.
        
           | midasuni wrote:
           | The RU did not have to remove the citizenship from millions
           | of people who were born EU citizens and had no say in the
           | minority decision to leave the EU
        
             | lupusreal wrote:
             | I'm sure Russia did no such thing!
        
             | WindyMiller wrote:
             | It doesn't have to withold citizenship from anyone. In some
             | ways it's more reasonable that I lost my EU citizenship
             | through a democratic process in my country than that, say,
             | a Turkish person doesn't have EU citizenship because the
             | process of joining has taken so long.
             | 
             | I'd like to still be an EU citizen but I don't see how it's
             | the EU's fault that I'm not.
        
         | palata wrote:
         | > but I still contend that the EU could have made an
         | accomodation for existing registrants to hold onto their
         | domains
         | 
         | Sure, and I completely understand your position. But... well
         | many other UK citizen had at least some inconvenience resulting
         | from the Brexit. Should the EU have gone out of their way to
         | accommodate everyone from the country that essentially said "I
         | don't care about the EU anymore"?
         | 
         | If you could leave the EU, keep all the benefits of being in
         | the EU and get all the benefits of not being in the EU all at
         | the same time, then there would be no EU. So yeah... you can't
         | have it all :-).
         | 
         | Good reminder that personal domains should not be chosen as
         | `.eu` though.
        
       | xg15 wrote:
       | The abstraction layer the internet is implementing on top of
       | geography is proving increasingly leaky these days.
       | 
       | I think the irony in this incident is that it might actually
       | strengthen the original purpose of ccTLDs, as namespaces for
       | domains within a particular country. Because it shows that, no
       | matter what your domain vendor or even the country's registrar
       | tells you the domain is ultimately controlled by the country's
       | government and is therefore subject to the whims and fate of that
       | country.
        
         | Karrot_Kream wrote:
         | The concept of the domain on today's internet is a bit
         | anachronistic on the internet these days. People just want to
         | get "places" on the internet, not to addresses.
        
           | autoexec wrote:
           | What is the alternative? IP addresses? AOL Keywords?
           | Abstracting away the whole thing and forcing people to only
           | connect to your webserver via a mobile app?
           | 
           | Domains are still the best thing anyone has managed to come
           | up with. We just need better administration of them since
           | ICANN sold out.
        
             | Palomides wrote:
             | most people with a laptop/desktop will type "facebook" into
             | the address bar of their browser, which will do a search in
             | whatever search engine was provided as the default, then
             | click on the first link
             | 
             | they have little to no conception of what a TLD is
             | 
             | actually, most people use an app on their phone for
             | everything and avoid the web browser
             | 
             | I don't say this to insult the average person, this is
             | simply what I see non-engineers do
        
             | kalkr wrote:
             | https://www.gnunet.org/en/gns.html
        
             | et-al wrote:
             | SEO, unfortunately.
             | 
             | As Palomides mentioned, most people just search for a
             | website they will go to instead of typing in whatever cute
             | domain you've crafted.
        
           | usrbinbash wrote:
           | Sorry, but that reads a lot like "not invented here".
           | 
           | You do realize that domains were invented so people could get
           | to "places" instead of addresses, right?
           | 
           | So pray tell, what would you replace domains with? And what
           | advantage would your schema have over what exists now?
           | 
           | Because, the addresses don't go away. Underneath whatever you
           | come up with, will always be an IP address, and has to be,
           | because you need a way to route packets.
           | 
           | So whatever you want to replace domains with, has o solve the
           | exact same problem: Wrap IP addresses in a nice, human
           | friendly, hierarchically organized schema, that is easy to
           | read, remember and type.
        
             | samatman wrote:
             | Hierarchically organized is not a hard requirement. A
             | domain _could_ consist of nothing more than a unique
             | Unicode string with no  '/' or ' ' in it. It might do well
             | to require a '.' be present, but even that isn't necessary.
             | 
             | I'm quite content with what we have, however. A "unique
             | string domain" regime has to pick between an anarchic
             | landscape of independent registrars playing whack-a-mole
             | with sniping and squatting, or a single central source of
             | truth, neither of those strikes me as ideal. I don't think
             | routing would actually be an issue though, given the power
             | of today's servers and good algorithms for hashmaps in the
             | many millions of keys.
        
           | palata wrote:
           | I don't think it is common to use `.us` in the US, but many
           | other countries use their ccTLD a lot more. I personally
           | don't like it when companies hack them (typically with `.io`
           | or `.ai`), because I am used to assign a meaning to the
           | ccTLDs.
           | 
           | My point being that while it may feel anachronistic in the US
           | these days, think that there are many countries that are not
           | the US :-).
        
       | pedrovhb wrote:
       | Imagine if one day we come up with a technology that allows
       | resolving _arbitrary strings_ and doesn't cost multiple times the
       | cost of the hosting structure itself.
        
         | diggan wrote:
         | We have that technology already, it's called DNS. Everything
         | else is people/organization problems, that won't be solved by
         | adding more technology to the fire.
        
       | lynx23 wrote:
       | Abusing ccTLDs for things which are not relevant to the
       | particular country just because they TLD sounds or reads cool is
       | where the problem began. .cc, .rs, just to name some.
       | 
       | I know it has become out of fashion these days, but countries
       | have sovereignty. If the registrar thinks they want to decline a
       | particular subdomain, thats their call. And all international
       | activists can go to hell.
        
       | quickthrower2 wrote:
       | I get the impression that .com is safer than .bananas or
       | whatever. Is this true? I would settle for a not so good .com for
       | the safety.
        
         | Ayesh wrote:
         | .com is run by Verizon, and .bananas will be by another for-
         | profit company (most likely Donuts).
         | 
         | If the .com prices were to be increased, there will be a huge
         | backlash. As for .bananas, not so much.
         | 
         | .bananas might get blocked at TLD level, .com unlikely so.
        
           | redwall_hp wrote:
           | Verisign administers .com and .net domains.
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verisign
        
             | pitaj wrote:
             | I imagine it was an auto-correct typo.
        
             | quickthrower2 wrote:
             | Never knew about Reston, interesting little city.
        
         | Macha wrote:
         | There is an agreement for .com and .org (and formerly .net, but
         | not anymore) that registry price increases are capped at 10% a
         | year, and they aren't allowed designate in demand domains as
         | more expensive premium domains. There was an attempt by the
         | .org operators to renegotiate that, but it was stopped by
         | public pressure.
        
         | userbinator wrote:
         | I tend to subconsciously skip over "weird" TLD sites in search
         | results as they are usually SEO spam.
        
       | Kognito wrote:
       | The article goes on about how this is "bigotry" by the Afghan
       | authorities for suspending queer.af yet doesn't bother to
       | consider whether any other domains were affected. Saw at least
       | one other report yesterday and I suspect it's not the only one:
       | 
       | https://x.com/wesbos/status/1757418308050079762
        
       | olivierduval wrote:
       | Actually, ccTLD might be a VERY GOOD thing: if I buy something
       | from a ".com" website, it can be from anywhere in the world...
       | and I would have no recourse in case of scam.
       | 
       | On the other side: if I buy something from my own country, I know
       | that the law will protect me because the TLD tell me that the
       | vendor has at least a company in my country, subject to my
       | country laws
        
         | organsnyder wrote:
         | Relying on a site's TLD to verify a company's location is
         | rarely (never?) a good idea.
        
         | razakel wrote:
         | What exactly is stopping me from registering a company at a PO
         | box, creating myfakeshop.yourcountry, taking your money, and
         | disappearing?
        
       | crossroadsguy wrote:
       | ccTLDs are controlled by an authority that IANA decides and IANA
       | is controlled by the Govt of USA. So we know eventually who
       | controls the domains. So maybe we come to 'all TLDs are actually
       | created equal', eventually. (my point is - in the end USA
       | controls all the domains, maybe via ICANN/IANA.)
        
       | vdaea wrote:
       | >After Russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022, the Ukranian Vice
       | Prime Minister asked ICANN to suspend ccTLDs associated with
       | Russia.
       | 
       | What's the point of ccTLDs if the US, a potential enemy, can
       | still pull the rug out from under your feet?
        
         | Macha wrote:
         | Here's what happens if it goes ahead. Russia (and allied
         | countries) ISPs update their config to point to root servers
         | that do resolve .ru and .su, and they can then fallback to the
         | usual servers for the rest of the world. And hey, maybe now
         | they have that infra, they decide that in Russia,
         | whitehouse.gov points somewhere else now
        
         | trimethylpurine wrote:
         | They expect that the US won't do that because it would violate
         | Americans' expectations about good and evil.
        
           | lpribis wrote:
           | Sure, the US has never done _anything_ that violates
           | expectations about good and evil.
        
             | trimethylpurine wrote:
             | Of course they have. But in Western countries governments
             | still need to sell their position to the public or it will
             | typically cost them an election. So, typically, it's safe
             | to expect on simple issues like letting Libya keep their
             | ccTLD that they won't bother. The article gave another
             | example about Ukraine where, as expected, they didn't
             | bother.
        
         | kube-system wrote:
         | Anybody can ask anyone to suspend a ccTLD. Doesn't mean they're
         | going to do it.
        
       | deadbabe wrote:
       | Will we ever live in a time where TLD conventions are abandoned
       | entirely and websites just use a hashtag or something?
        
         | Aerbil313 wrote:
         | This is a solved problem. AFAIK there are not one, but multiple
         | solutions for performant global routing without centralization.
         | DHTs are an example.
        
         | acheron wrote:
         | Yes, that time was 1996-2002 or so, and they were called "AOL
         | keywords".
        
         | palata wrote:
         | There is no need; the current system works. Just don't register
         | your domain in Afghanistan if you don't want to depend on...
         | Afghanistan.
        
       | nottorp wrote:
       | > While ICANN kinda-sorta has something to do with ccTLDs (in the
       | sense that it makes them exist on the Internet), it has no
       | authority to control how a ccTLD is managed.
       | 
       | Right, like ICANN's .com and other traditional domains are
       | managed fairly and can be trusted :)
       | 
       | Isn't it .com domains that are generally easily taken hostage by
       | cybersquatters because of dubious rules and lowest cost possible
       | administration?
        
       | 2Gkashmiri wrote:
       | Presstv.com is a domain siezed by US government that belongs to a
       | foreign news agency (based out of iran)
       | 
       | This means that the .com TLD is at the whims of US govt, just
       | like .AF is at the whims of afghan govt.
       | 
       | If you are at the mercy of US govt for .com you should be at the
       | mercy of afghan govt as well for their cctld.
       | 
       | What's the problem here?
        
       | pimlottc wrote:
       | > Unfortunately, ccTLD registries have a disconcerting habit of
       | changing their minds on whether they serve their geographic
       | locality, such as when auDA decided to declare an open season in
       | the .au namespace some years ago.
       | 
       | I think this is referring to these licensing rules changes
       | effective April 2021:
       | 
       | https://www.auda.org.au/au-domain-names/policies-and-complia...
        
       | ChrisArchitect wrote:
       | Related recent piece of this discussion:
       | 
       |  _Queer.af Mastodon instance has been shut down by the Taliban_
       | 
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39348923
        
         | ChrisArchitect wrote:
         | And one about the flipside/money side of things that was
         | omitted from the OP:
         | 
         |  _.ai website registrations are a windfall for tiny Anguilla_
         | 
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39194477
        
       | tomoyoirl wrote:
       | Disappointed to see no mention yet of Tuvalu, the tiny low-lying
       | island nation (imperiled by global warming etc) where something
       | like 10% of the government income is funded by sales of .tv
       | domains, which is just such an interesting case.
        
       | gggmaster wrote:
       | As if there are guarantees that gTLDs won't be sold to shady
       | entities.
        
       | DanAtC wrote:
       | Never forget a resident of Christmas Island was able to bring
       | down the most infamous .cx domain with a single complaint.
        
       | ceeam wrote:
       | > I don't think any gTLD operator will be invading a neighbouring
       | country any time soon.
       | 
       | I would guess people in Yemen (most recently) would find this
       | statement somewhat funny.
        
       | bitwize wrote:
       | I think we should petition ICANN for a .asfuck TLD, so the
       | queer.af people have somewhere to go to that's less politically
       | fraught.
        
       | teddyh wrote:
       | Summary: Many countries are bad. Therefore, avoid them all.
        
       | tempestn wrote:
       | One other thing I'd note is to avoid using the new gTLDs like
       | .email or .mail for an email address. I tried it and discovered
       | just how many bad form validators and spam filters there are out
       | there.
        
         | paulnpace wrote:
         | What year did you experiment with that? I know of one person
         | currently using .email TLD and hasn't reported issues.
         | 
         | I started using .guru not long after it launched and definitely
         | experienced the issues you describe, including my residential
         | ISP not being able to resolve.
        
           | tempestn wrote:
           | I switched away from it in 2021. Certainly _most_ websites
           | handled it fine, and _most_ of my email went through. But in
           | both cases, there were notable exceptions compared to using a
           | .com domain.
        
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