[HN Gopher] Deleting and destroying finished movies
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Deleting and destroying finished movies
        
       Author : cialowicz
       Score  : 83 points
       Date   : 2024-02-11 21:35 UTC (1 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.rogerebert.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.rogerebert.com)
        
       | delichon wrote:
       | The contrary argument, that a creator has the right to destroy
       | their creation, is made in the Gary Cooper movie "The
       | Fountainhead" (1949).
        
         | aquova wrote:
         | Even then it's not quite an apples to apples comparison. From
         | what I understand, everyone directly involved in the making of
         | this film is proud of the work and wants it to be released,
         | it's just the bean counters and executives (who I would not
         | consider the "creators" of the film) who want to destroy the
         | creation for ego and tax reasons.
        
           | denkmoon wrote:
           | Why bring ego into it? It's just bottom line thinking, that's
           | all. Is there any good reason to think ego is a part of it?
        
             | aquova wrote:
             | The article itself puts it forward.
             | 
             | > The offer to sell the film was, to put it mildly, not
             | undertaken in good faith. It appears that the company would
             | rather take less money by writing off the movie than sell
             | it for even a few dollars more than that, because they
             | might risk having a rival turn it into a success, which
             | would further embarrass them for never even having tried to
             | market it themselves
             | 
             | If it was really bottom line thinking, they'd accept the
             | $70M, more than double what they'd get in tax benefits, and
             | have another distributor release the film. Instead, they'd
             | rather trash the film than risk looking like fools if they
             | allowed another company to reap the benefits for releasing
             | a hit.
        
           | feedforward wrote:
           | You're right, it's just part of the absurdity of Rand's
           | vision. In the real world people do work and create
           | something, but some bean counters figure out the heirs who
           | own the majority stake of a company can make a few more bucks
           | by destroying the thing, so it is done.
        
         | Waterluvian wrote:
         | Yeah. The problem arises when there's many creators and they
         | disagree. Or when a creation has already been duplicated and
         | given to the world and they think they have any right to claw
         | that back.
        
         | nyc_data_geek wrote:
         | Sure, that sounds fine, but the taxpayer ought to not be
         | responsible for footing the bill in any way. The studios do
         | this for the tax writeoff, which is tantamount to robbing the
         | people paying taxes (eg:us) blind.
        
           | gruez wrote:
           | It's not "robbing the people paying taxes" because the money
           | was never theirs to begin with. Taxes are paid on profits,
           | and if profits are not made they're not owed.
           | 
           | Suppose I make a painting worth $1000. If I had sold that, I
           | would have been required to pay taxes on that at the marginal
           | rate, say 40% so $400 worth of taxes. Instead of doing that,
           | I set it on fire. Does that mean I just robed taxpayers of
           | $400?
        
             | blowski wrote:
             | I bet the owners of the film studio had a really hard
             | Christmas that year, with no profits. The issue is that the
             | studio takes the profit if it succeeds, the taxpayers take
             | the losses if it doesn't.
        
             | muricula wrote:
             | It's not setting the fire which causes taxpayers to lose
             | money, it's writing off the loss against taxes you would
             | have otherwise paid on profits made from other movies.
        
               | gruez wrote:
               | Not an accountant, but tax write-offs aren't some sort of
               | no tax glitch that you make them seem. You can only
               | deduct losses that you've actually suffered, not
               | imaginary losses. If you spent $10M into making a movie,
               | you can't value the movie at $80M and then use that
               | against all your other revenues to pay less taxes. If
               | this were true every company would be making fake movies
               | to destroy and pay less taxes, not destroy actual movies
               | that they spent millions on.
        
               | derivative7 wrote:
               | Taxing people on income they didn't make but the
               | government imagined they could have made in some
               | situation that didn't happen sounds like a slippery slope
               | to be standing on.
        
             | isthatafact wrote:
             | It feels like tax fraud. Given that it is apparently not
             | possible to prove that they deleted the movie, it seems
             | like the IRS should assume that they still have the movie.
             | 
             | I bought a stock share for $1000. I wanted to sell it for
             | $2000, but no one was willing to pay more than $400, so I
             | decided to tell the IRS that it was worth zero and take the
             | full tax write off (which was tax fraud).
             | 
             | On top of that, refusing to release or sell the movie
             | should have triggered a shareholder lawsuit.
        
               | gruez wrote:
               | > Given that it is apparently not possible to prove that
               | they deleted the movie, it seems like the IRS should
               | assume that they still have the movie.
               | 
               | Even if they didn't delete the movie, the fact that they
               | claimed to have deleted the movie and used it as a tax
               | credit basically makes the value $0, because in the
               | unlikely event they have a copy around, they wouldn't be
               | able to sell it without having all of the profits seized
               | from them.
        
           | sib wrote:
           | Many of the people on this site are involved in technology
           | (software and/or hardware) product development. If they work
           | for a company that spends $10M in development salaries &
           | related costs to build a product, and then decides not to
           | release that product, the company certainly deducts those
           | development costs from its revenues when it files its taxes.
           | 
           | This is true even if some third party had made an offer to
           | acquire the product - there are many valid reasons why the
           | first company may choose not to sell it.
        
         | kevingadd wrote:
         | Are any of the people responsible for this phenomenon actually
         | creators? Isn't it usually investors and accountants doing it
         | for a tax writeoff?
        
         | BobaFloutist wrote:
         | Ah, the work of fiction based on an Ayn Rand novel?
         | 
         | Considering I'm operating from a very different set of values
         | than she was, I doubt I would find the movie particularly
         | persuasive.
        
           | kuratkull wrote:
           | I'm of the opposite opinion... now what?
        
       | bhickey wrote:
       | Do they get to realize the entire loss in the year it occurs?
        
       | cnees wrote:
       | Destroying it should be legal. Writing that off as a loss should
       | be considered fraud, especially when there's an offer for it.
        
         | gruez wrote:
         | >Writing that off as a loss should be considered fraud,
         | especially when there's an offer for it.
         | 
         | From wikipedia:
         | 
         | >In law, fraud is intentional deception to secure unfair or
         | unlawful gain, or to deprive a victim of a legal right.
         | 
         | Where's the deception here?
        
           | dymk wrote:
           | It's defrauding the taxpayer
        
             | gruez wrote:
             | "fraud" doesn't mean "losing money in a manner I don't
             | like", so I ask again: where's the deception here?
        
               | dymk wrote:
               | That they actually incurred the losses they claim to have
               | incurred, so they get a tax break. The taxpayer is
               | defrauded.
               | 
               | They would rather delete the movie to claim the tax break
               | than sell it to another studio offering more than the tax
               | break.
               | 
               | If you think they actually lost that amount of money:
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_accounting
        
               | gruez wrote:
               | > That they actually incurred the losses they claim to
               | have incurred, so they get a tax break. The taxpayer is
               | defrauded.
               | 
               | Did they not incur such losses? Did they claim to delete
               | the movie but actually kept a backup? Granted, the loss
               | is self-inflicted, but that's not a relevant factor in
               | the tax code.
        
               | ok_dad wrote:
               | If I burn down my house and claim insurance or tax
               | losses, they'll laugh and send me to jail. Explain how a
               | corporation doing the effectively the same thing should
               | get a write off. It's a sham.
        
               | gruez wrote:
               | In your scenario the illegal parts would be:
               | 
               | 1. claiming insurance on it. AFAIK this isn't applicable
               | in the case of the movie
               | 
               | 2. endangering other houses by doing it in a non-approved
               | way
               | 
               | Other than that setting houses that you own on fire isn't
               | illegal.
        
               | ok_dad wrote:
               | And why should a studio be allowed to claim a movie they
               | destroyed on taxes again? I'm not interested in the
               | answer, "it's legal," because a lot of things are legal
               | that should be illegal and vice versa, I'm looking for
               | your moral reasoning here as to why this shouldn't be
               | made illegal.
        
               | gruez wrote:
               | >I'm looking for your moral reasoning here as to why this
               | shouldn't be made illegal.
               | 
               | If you read the thread more carefully, you'll see I never
               | made such a claim. The only claim I made is that it's not
               | fraud. I thought this was pretty clear with my earlier
               | comment:
               | 
               | > "fraud" doesn't mean "losing money in a manner I don't
               | like", so I ask again: where's the deception here?
        
               | travisjungroth wrote:
               | A company buys a balloon making machine for $100k. They
               | use the machine and depreciate it over the years to $20k,
               | getting $80k of deductions over the years. They decide to
               | stop making these balloons. Someone offers them $1k but
               | they decline. They destroy the machine, and have a $20k
               | loss on their taxes.
               | 
               | This is all above board, totally normal behavior. There
               | are reasons to be against destroying these movies, but
               | tax fraud really isn't one of them. They actually did
               | take the loss of whatever was the remaining value of that
               | asset.
        
               | shadowgovt wrote:
               | [delayed]
        
               | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
               | We aren't arguing that it's tax fraud by definition, but
               | that it _should_ be considered fraud. If the tax code
               | incentivizes destroying something then that seems like a
               | defect of the tax code.
        
               | lisper wrote:
               | Destroying a movie to claim the tax break is analogous to
               | burning your house down for the insurance money or to
               | claim a casualty loss. Yes, you really did lose your
               | house. No, you are not entitled to claim it as a write-
               | off.
        
               | gruez wrote:
               | >insurance money
               | 
               | That's fraud because the insurance policy specifically
               | says it won't pay out if you intentionally set it on
               | fire. If you actually did set it on fire, then claimed
               | that you didn't then that's the deception.
               | 
               | >No, you are not entitled to claim it as a write-off.
               | 
               | Can you point to the relevant tax law that prevents this?
        
               | jrflowers wrote:
               | You make a good point. When somebody says something
               | _should_ be illegal, the clever route of discussion is to
               | repeatedly point out that it is not currently illegal --
               | a fact that both of you agree about, since that is the
               | premise for making the statement that it should be
               | illegal.
        
               | nirvdrum wrote:
               | The deductible losses are supposed to be incurred in
               | pursuit of profit. Not every expense a business incurs is
               | tax deductible. Not even trying to sell it calls into
               | question whether it was in pursuit of profit. They're
               | expecting the American tax payer to make up the shortfall
               | and that's likely based on Hollywood's unique accounting
               | practices, which has a tendency to inflate the claimed
               | expense amount.
        
               | AlbertCory wrote:
               | the deception is assigning a zero value to the movie,
               | when it's not zero.
        
               | gruez wrote:
               | It is zero when the hard drive holding the only copy is
               | degaussed.
        
               | AlbertCory wrote:
               | no, if you had an offer for $30M, then that was the
               | value.
        
               | gruez wrote:
               | And the value went to $0 after destroying it. I don't see
               | what's the issue is here.
        
             | glitchc wrote:
             | How so if funded by private capital?
        
           | ClassyJacket wrote:
           | That they lost money on the film.
        
             | gruez wrote:
             | If you spent a bunch of time and resources making a movie,
             | and then decide to shred it, did you not lose money?
        
               | exe34 wrote:
               | If I burn down my house, I lose money. Should I be able
               | to claim insurance on that?
        
               | gruez wrote:
               | If your insurance policy covers that (unlikely because of
               | this exact situation), then sure.
        
       | Barrin92 wrote:
       | _" One of WBD's most notorious post-merger decisions was deleting
       | an entire finished feature, "Batgirl," that had an estimated
       | budget of $90 million, to claim a tax write-off"_
       | 
       | I feel like if someone reads that in a thousand years they're
       | going to look at us the same way we look at some ancient tribe
       | worshipping idols. Years of work and cultural artifacts destroyed
       | for the accounting department, that's nuts.
        
         | Andrex wrote:
         | It's not destroyed, it exists somewhere. And IMO it's just as
         | likely it sees release in the next 1000 years as it is
         | accidentally destroyed or lost.
         | 
         | Movie studio regimes change all the time, and it's possible to
         | un-tax-write-off a work (it's just a giant pain in the ass).
         | 
         | Adult Swim got Sym-Bionic Titan and IGPX back from the dead,
         | and they're owned by the same parent company (Warner Bros.)
        
       | chx wrote:
       | I wonder, is it even possible to truly delete a movie?
       | 
       | I am surprised Batgirl didn't leak. How do you even prevent that?
       | 
       | It's just bits.
        
         | voltaireodactyl wrote:
         | The short version is that almost everyone with enough access to
         | make a local copy of the movie is financially
         | and/idealistically incentivized enough by future opportunity
         | within the industry not to risk it.
         | 
         | For everyone else, there's law enforcement supported by
         | unlimited budget for prosecution from the industry.
        
         | mixmastamyk wrote:
         | Most studios moved to a high security environment a while back.
         | Only Covid reopened things a bit, and not sure how long.
        
         | fl7305 wrote:
         | > How do you even prevent that?
         | 
         | Keep the working copies on computers in a special lab with no
         | external network access.
         | 
         | Restrict access and physically search the people leaving the
         | lab.
         | 
         | Not fool proof, but it will reduce leaks by a lot.
         | 
         | But yeah, once you send out thousands of review copies, there's
         | no stopping the leaks.
        
       | blincoln wrote:
       | Seems like a less controversial solution would be to allow the
       | same tax write-off if the studio releases the film for free
       | distribution (e.g. via the Internet Archive), either into the
       | public domain, or under a license like Creative Commons
       | Noncommercial if there's concern about implicitly allowing
       | derivative works by competitors or similar.
        
         | TheCleric wrote:
         | Exactly. You want the tax break? The work now belongs to the
         | taxpayers. Seems fair to me.
        
         | advael wrote:
         | I think the tax writeoff should _only_ be available for doing
         | something like that. It 's insane that corporations failing at
         | ventures is so incentivised that they'll fail on purpose, and
         | we shouldn't be offering tax breaks for behavior that serves no
         | public good
         | 
         | This kind of law is especially offensive in the context of
         | rhetoric about social programs, wherein we create all sorts of
         | onerous means-testing on the logic that someone, somewhere
         | might actually be incentivized to use social services to
         | ameliorate various forms of poverty and destitution
         | 
         | In both cases, there is a balancing act wherein allowing too
         | many false positives can create perverse incentives, and
         | allowing too many false negatives fails to accomplish what the
         | policy set out to do. I think a massive corporation taking a
         | loss for making something unpopular is not an outcome we should
         | be trying to prevent with government programs at all, but we
         | are consistently prioritizing it over preventing outcomes like
         | homelessness
        
           | nerdponx wrote:
           | I don't understand the move in the first place.
           | 
           | Do tax write offs for corporations work differently than for
           | people? What's the point of spending $90m just to reduce your
           | taxable income by $90m? It's not like corporations have
           | progressive tax brackets.
           | 
           | Or did they acquire the movie as part of the acquisition, and
           | are now somehow able to claim a write-off for something they
           | didn't actually spend any money on?
        
           | CSMastermind wrote:
           | > It's insane that corporations failing at ventures is so
           | incentivised that they'll fail on purpose, and we shouldn't
           | be offering tax breaks for behavior that serves no public
           | good
           | 
           | I believe the argument is that businesses would take less
           | risks without the security provided by those tax write-offs.
           | Presumably the increased tax revenue from businesses taking
           | risks and having success outweighs the tax losses from risks
           | taken, failed, then written off.
        
         | verisimi wrote:
         | Why are movies given tax breaks at all, is the question.
        
         | sib wrote:
         | Since - as only one example of the complexity involved - the
         | music used in the film is almost certainly licensed and must be
         | paid for, and the studio does not "own" it, there's no way that
         | they can simply release it for free distribution or put it into
         | the public domain...
        
       | AlbertCory wrote:
       | Where do you draw the line? If an artist pays a model and paints
       | her, is the artist to be prohibited from destroying the painting
       | because it sucks, and because the model wants credit? What about
       | a music producer who pays a studio band to record a song that
       | turns out to be terrible -- is the producer prohibited from
       | deleting it?
       | 
       | It's the tax write off for destruction that's fucked up, as
       | @cnees says. Failures are part of the process of creation. If the
       | producer says the market value of the work is zero, they've
       | committed tax fraud if it's not.
       | 
       | The solution to their "attribution" problem was found by
       | directors a long time ago when they didn't want their names on a
       | film: it's directed by "Alan Smithee."
       | 
       | https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000647/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1
        
         | fl7305 wrote:
         | > is the artist to be prohibited from destroying the painting
         | 
         | Perhaps not prohibited. But we could make it so they lose all
         | IP rights.
         | 
         | Copyright is intended to promote the creation and distribution
         | of new works. It is not a natural human right, like ownership
         | of your physical things.
        
           | Terr_ wrote:
           | > Perhaps not prohibited. But we could make it so they lose
           | all IP rights.
           | 
           | Suppose I make two draft comics of my original character
           | ExampleMan.
           | 
           | One features a dark brooding morally ambiguous anti-hero, and
           | the other is a wholesome family character.
           | 
           | Are you saying if I destroy one, the character comes
           | partially or wholly into the public domain?
        
           | gruez wrote:
           | >But we could make it so they lose all IP rights.
           | 
           | If they're actually destroying all copies as claimed, then IP
           | rights is irrelevant.
        
         | sokoloff wrote:
         | I don't think they need to claim that "no one would pay even $1
         | for the rights to the movie in its current state" but rather
         | the lesser "in our judgment, the best thing for us as a profit-
         | seeking studio is for us to not release this movie".
         | 
         | Damage to the Batgirl franchise brand, damage to the studio
         | reputation, damage to the relationship with the stars, legal
         | fees, etc. could all be reasonably factored in to the studio's
         | judgment to scrap the current WIP.
        
           | AlbertCory wrote:
           | You are confusing "not releasing it" with "claiming a value
           | of zero."
        
         | Schnitz wrote:
         | Where do you draw the line? If someone buys the Mona Lisa and
         | burns it for the tax credit, is the owner to be prohibited from
         | doing so based on the public interest?
        
           | AlbertCory wrote:
           | Try being realistic. Is "cultural treasure" your line?
        
           | Notatheist wrote:
           | I feel the Mona Lisa's destruction would be more valuable to
           | culture than its continued existence. Imagine the headlines,
           | the people with stories of having seen it in person, the
           | conspiracy theories...
        
           | derivative7 wrote:
           | If I pay 25% marginal income tax and I make a profit of 200
           | million dollars, I get to keep 150 million. If instead I
           | decide to buy the Mona Lisa for 200 million dollars, and burn
           | it I walk away with nothing but the satisfaction of not have
           | given one cent to the government. Please tell me how my evil
           | mastermind plan to burn the Mona Lisa works anyway?
        
         | lekangoo wrote:
         | We can draw the line right here. We don't need spurious
         | analogies when we have a clear case where a company is abusing
         | the tax system.
        
           | nerdponx wrote:
           | [delayed]
        
         | ysofunny wrote:
         | where to draw the line?
         | 
         | when other people get their hands on the files
         | 
         | we must admit (and later on embrace) the digital possibilities
         | we have. if the artist or model want it deleted they best make
         | sure nobody copied it first else, in my opinion, they must
         | convince every person holding a copy from voluntarily agreeing
         | to destroy it.
         | 
         | nobody should have a right to force other persons to act
         | against their own will even if they created some artifact they
         | no longer fully control
        
       | simonw wrote:
       | I wonder what would happen if a bunch of extremely bankable
       | talent - the Christopher Nolan, Greta Gerwig, Tom Cruise crowd -
       | quietly got in touch with Warner Bros and made it clear that they
       | would avoid working with any studio that had a track record of
       | cancelling completed projects for a tax write-off.
        
       | lupusreal wrote:
       | _" Why deleting finished programs should be a crime."_
       | 
       | Be honest, at least some of you have finished a project before
       | deciding to axe it instead of publishing it. It is any creators
       | right to decide not to publish something.
       | 
       | If the issue is the tax treatment of these circumstances, then
       | fix that.
        
       | loughnane wrote:
       | Commenting before I've read the article:
       | 
       | That's ridiculous. There's no obligation for anyone to bring
       | something to market regardless of how far along it is.
       | 
       | After I read the article:
       | 
       | Still not persuaded. It reads like motivated reasoning, the
       | person doesn't like things not getting released and says that
       | governments should step in. There's some mention of taxes and
       | lost work, but nothing tht holds water.
       | 
       | As an example: if it cost you $100M to make a film and you write
       | that off you could reduce your tax burden by as much, netting a
       | $15M lower tax bill if your rate was 15%.
       | 
       | By contrast if you release it you've no guarantee of that $15M,
       | especially once promotion and other costs are factored in. If
       | it's a trash movie that'll also damage the firm's reputation---
       | something that's tough to quantify but no less real.
       | 
       | That's not great, but its I wouldn't want to live in a society
       | where that was criminal.
       | 
       | Then there's this:
       | 
       | > nobody who did any sort of work on a project that consumed
       | years of their lives will ever be able to point to it as evidence
       | of what sort of work they're capable of doing
       | 
       | That's the status quo in most jobs. Things don't ship all the
       | time.
       | 
       | It's a bummer, yeah, but that's it.
        
         | shadowgovt wrote:
         | Honestly, if we want to disincentivize Hollywood from burning
         | movies, that's the loophole to close. Stop letting them take a
         | movie that generates a net loss as a write-off.
         | 
         | This would have monumental consequences to the Hollywood
         | business model.
        
         | advael wrote:
         | The argument isn't that WB shouldn't be able to scrap projects.
         | The argument is that the tax break for doing this is bad and
         | should not exist
        
         | nerdponx wrote:
         | [delayed]
        
       | lbarrow wrote:
       | Without commenting on the larger issue the article brings up,
       | this specific point doesn't survive scrutiny to me:
       | Some of the company's tactics post-merger were garden-variety
       | ruthless, like eliminating 87 series from its streaming platform
       | Max, so that they won't have to pay union-mandated residuals to
       | the talent that created already-existing programs or pony up
       | funds to produce more seasons of existing ones (such as "Our Flag
       | Means Death," one of the company's most popular and critically
       | acclaimed comedies--canceled after just two seasons).
       | 
       | In the streaming era, it's very easy for the revenue created by
       | hosting an older piece of content to be dwarfed by residuals.
       | Streaming services get customers largely by releasing popular new
       | titles; it's entirely predictable that pushing for higher
       | residuals would drive services to sunset series faster, and it's
       | entirely reasonable for services to stop hosting titles that lose
       | them money.
        
       | areoform wrote:
       | There are three conversations currently being had here,
       | 
       | One revolves around corporations deleting works that they've paid
       | for.
       | 
       | The second centers on the rights of artists (and is framed via
       | first person, therefore it's at the human level).
       | 
       | The third focuses on corporations, the government and society
       | writ large.
       | 
       | The offered prescriptions and takes on each differ by each
       | scenario.
       | 
       | It's important to recognize that it's, most likely, not possible
       | to create a rule, or even a set of rules, that fits all scenarios
       | for the above categories. But it is likely worth asking questions
       | about the scenario at hand; an executive removed from the
       | production & artistic creation process has decided to use
       | deletion of art works as an accounting strategy to offset debt
       | from a Leveraged Buy Out. A question worth asking is what other
       | irregularities are going on,                  > Financial
       | engineering has always been central to leveraged buyouts. In a
       | typical deal, a private-equity firm buys a company, using some of
       | its own money and some borrowed money. It then tries to improve
       | the performance of the acquired company, with an eye toward
       | cashing out by selling it or taking it public. The key to this
       | strategy is debt: the model encourages firms to borrow as much as
       | possible, since, just as with a mortgage, the less money you put
       | down, the bigger your potential return on investment. The rewards
       | can be extraordinary: when Romney was at Bain, it supposedly
       | earned eighty-eight per cent a year for its investors. But piles
       | of debt also increase the risk that companies will go bust.
       | >          > This approach has one obvious virtue: if a private-
       | equity firm wants to make money, it has to improve the value of
       | the companies it buys. Sometimes the improvement may be more
       | cosmetic than real, but historically private-equity firms have in
       | principle had a powerful incentive to make companies perform
       | better. In the past decade, though, that calculus changed. Having
       | already piled companies high with debt in order to buy them, many
       | private-equity funds had their companies borrow even more, and
       | then used that money to pay themselves huge "special dividends."
       | This allowed them to recoup their initial investment while
       | keeping the same ownership stake. Before 2000, big special
       | dividends were not that common. But between 2003 and 2007
       | private-equity funds took more than seventy billion dollars out
       | of their companies. These dividends created no economic value--
       | they just redistributed money from the company to the private-
       | equity investors.         >         > As a result, private-equity
       | firms are increasingly able to profit even if the companies they
       | run go under--an outcome made much likelier by all the extra
       | borrowing--and many companies have been getting picked clean. In
       | 2004, for instance, Wasserstein & Company bought the thriving
       | mail-order fruit retailer Harry and David. The following year,
       | Wasserstein and other investors took out more than a hundred
       | million in dividends, paid for with borrowed money--covering
       | their original investment plus a twenty-three per cent profit--
       | and charged Harry and David millions in "management fees." Last
       | year, Harry and David defaulted on its debt and dumped its
       | pension obligations. In other words, Wasserstein failed to
       | improve the company's performance, failed to meet its obligations
       | to creditors, screwed its workers, and still made a profit.
       | That's not exactly how capitalism is supposed to work.
       | 
       | https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/01/30/private-inequi...
        
       | pk-protect-ai wrote:
       | Isn't Hollywood very well known money laundering machine?
        
       | kuratkull wrote:
       | Kinda weird to bring legislation into it. Should my employer not
       | be allowed to delete my code because it's my special little
       | snowflake?
        
       | ecocentrik wrote:
       | This argument reminds me Robert Rauschenberg's, Erased de Kooning
       | https://www.sfmoma.org/artwork/98.298/
        
       | froh wrote:
       | my saddest story there is "frank'n stein" a hilarious comedy
       | movie and theatre play toying with the Frankenstein plot.
       | 
       | I've seen the movie and it made ma watch a local play and I loved
       | both.
       | 
       | when I tried to get hold of the DVD years later I learned that
       | the heirs to the author Ken Campbell had withdrawn all rights.
       | this removed all prints from all libraries too. the thing is
       | _gone_. because the heirs hated their gene provider so much.
       | 
       | I was amazed this is possible... "freedom of speech"? nope.
       | intellectual property.
        
       | mdasen wrote:
       | To me, the weird thing is that the tax write-off doesn't even
       | seem to make sense.
       | 
       | Let's say you spend $80M making a film and you write it off for a
       | $30M benefit. You're still in the hole $50M. Let's say that you
       | sell the film for $20M and write off the remaining $60M loss for
       | a $23M benefit. In the latter case, you're only in the hole $37M
       | instead of $50M. That's a lot better.
       | 
       | Is there some weird accounting rule where you're allowed to write
       | off full losses, but not partial losses? I understand writing off
       | losses: if you make $100M on one project and lose $50M on another
       | project, you pay taxes on the $50M you've made - but you're only
       | getting a fraction of the money back. It's better to get 100% of
       | $20M plus a fraction of $60M than getting a fraction of $80M.
       | 
       | No one seems to be explaining how this is working in Warner Bros
       | Discovery's favor. Sure, I get canceling popular shows where the
       | actors might be looking for more expensive contracts. I might
       | think it's short sighted given that you need popular shows to
       | keep your subscribers, but I get what they're trying to do. I
       | understand licensing content to a competitor for a quick pay day.
       | Again, it seems short sighted, but I get what they're trying to
       | do. What I don't get is why it's better for them to completely
       | scrap content than to let it flop upon release. The only possible
       | explanation I can see is that they'd be able to claim the tax
       | relief earlier. If they released it in late 2023, they'd have to
       | wait to claim any losses since they'd be making money off it into
       | 2024. If they cancel it in 2023, they can take the write off for
       | 2023. It must be something else, right?
        
       | philsnow wrote:
       | Criminal fraud issues aside, I would think that all of the
       | artists had a reasonable expectation that the work they were
       | doing would be released, and would then become part of their
       | resume.
       | 
       | Since it didn't get released, they collectively and/or
       | individually might very well bring a civil suit against the
       | company for lost compensation (where compensation is defined as
       | some combination of cash and reputational gains, and this latter
       | part became zero).
        
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