[HN Gopher] It was almost impossible to make the blue LED [video]
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It was almost impossible to make the blue LED [video]
Author : keepamovin
Score : 252 points
Date : 2024-02-09 10:14 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.youtube.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.youtube.com)
| vardump wrote:
| Assuming everything is reported fairly, I really can't imagine
| being Nichia's customer. Ever.
|
| Sacking and not compensating the employee that single-handedly
| made Nichia successful by inventing a working blue LED and saving
| Nichia from bankruptcy is just not acceptable.
| creativeSlumber wrote:
| I agree with you. It says the original CEO was a researcher
| himself and that's why he understood the risks funded the
| request. Things changed after his son-in-law took control as
| CEO. It doesn't mention if the son-n-law had any background in
| the industry or semiconductor research, or was just appointed
| CEO just because he was the son-in-law. I think that's where
| the company went wrong.
| hugryhoop wrote:
| It's complicated.
|
| For 1 employee which disobeyed orders and saved the company
| you'll have 99 which disobeyed orders and don't produce
| anything useful or even made harm.
|
| This is called the Halo effect.
| IncreasePosts wrote:
| Yes, but the odds that someone who invents the blue LED also
| invents something else amazing is much better than a random
| employee who _did not invent the blue LED_ inventing
| something amazing.
| dymk wrote:
| Well, if they really thought it was a waste of time, they
| could have fired him in the first few years, but instead they
| kept funding his research. The company was doing one thing
| with its right hand, and something entirely different with
| its left.
|
| I'm not saying the halo effect isn't real or not applicable
| here. But a multi-billion dollar invention warrants
| Extenuating Circumstances, and it's oh so very convenient
| that the CEO can say "well we don't want to inspire this kind
| of behavior in other employees!" _after_ the profits are
| realized.
| bawolff wrote:
| I think it would have been reasonable to fire him before he
| made the breakthrough. Sometimes you have to cut your losses.
| Its his treatment after success that seemed egregious.
| dudeinjapan wrote:
| It is extremely difficult to fire employees in Japan.
| Disobeying orders is in general not a fireable offense.
| willis936 wrote:
| I'm not sure it is the Halo effect here. Imagine how much
| more money they would have made if more employees ignored the
| new CEO, or if there was a different CEO.
| junon wrote:
| Totally. I actually went to check mouser to see if they had
| nichia brand stuff - a few odds and ends but they're not even
| listed on the manufacturer list for LEDs.
|
| Will watch out for them and avoid whenever possible from now
| on.
| legitster wrote:
| This makes more sense having learned more about Japanese
| business culture and the concept of salarymen.
| rpnx wrote:
| They didn't sack him, he quit for better pay.
|
| In Japan companies rarely sack employees and employees rarely
| quit. People are expected to stay with the same company
| basically their whole life. That's why he didn't get fired for
| disobeying orders. Firing someone in Japan is somewhat socially
| taboo (just like quitting) and therefore rare.
|
| In Japan, companies are considered to be like "family". It
| would be kind of a joke here in the USA, but in Japan there is
| a lot of loyalty in both directions.
|
| Part of the reason they sued him is probably the butthurt of
| him quitting. Quitting, even for better pay, is kind of like a
| big "fuck you" in Japan.
| timr wrote:
| That's sort of true (less so these days), but it's also quite
| common for companies to treat undesired people like crap in
| order to drive them to quit. It's what they do instead of
| firing in the lifetime employment model -- you've been
| promoted to head of the floor-sweeping department. Ganbatte!
|
| I don't know if that was going on here, but it sure sounds
| like it. (It could also be that the actual story is
| completely different than reported here, of course.)
| robocat wrote:
| > treat undesired people like crap in order to drive them
| to quit
|
| There is a Japanese word for it:
|
| Zhui iChu shiBu Wu Oidashibeya
| https://jlearn.net/dictionary/Zhui iChu shiBu Wu
|
| A crappy NYT article but gives the idea:
| https://archive.ph/k84cb
| Exoristos wrote:
| That's how many U.S. corps still were back in the late
| Eighties, early Nineties when I started working. I remember
| the first layoffs in my division and how shocked everyone
| was.
| Schattenbaer wrote:
| The Nichia 519A is a one of the favourite LEDs in the
| enthusiast flashlight world.
|
| It's a high CRI quite bright LED, and I have to shamefully
| admit that I specifically specced a light in the past with this
| LED.
|
| Before I knew about this, that is.
|
| Example write-up to see what flashlight nerds talk about:
| https://budgetlightforum.com/t/nichia-519a/64360/43
| ranger207 wrote:
| I always knew there was a reason I preferred the LH351D
| graphe wrote:
| Like the other person said, nichia makes good LEDs. They make a
| UV free LED. https://led-
| ld.nichia.co.jp/en/product/lighting_optisolis.ht...
| khaki54 wrote:
| Thanks for the billions in revenue, but remember how I told you
| to quit trying to use GaN to solve the blue LED problems? Well
| here's $147 for your patent and clean out your desk, because
| you're fired.
| creativeSlumber wrote:
| a good leader need to be humble enough to spot when they are
| wrong and correct course. This guy sounds like he had control
| issues, and kept a grudge. very childish behavior.
| lijok wrote:
| There's little of that to go around in Japan. They strongly
| subscribe to power structures (see Senpai-Kohai) - seniors
| are unimpeachable and highly respected.
| gbraad wrote:
| Hofstede's cultural dimensions theory isa interesting read
| about this.
| nox101 wrote:
| I feel like I remember he complained that Japan would likely
| fall behind by their best and brightest going outside Japan
| knowing that inside they would not be compensated.
|
| My search-fu is failing though. I did find this interview
|
| https://www.jsap.or.jp/jsapi/Pdf/Number02/Interview.pdf
| Am4TIfIsER0ppos wrote:
| If only it was impossible. Blue leds are abominable! [EDIT] I
| hate white ones too so the replies aren't exactly selling them!
| joks wrote:
| ????? Blue LEDs made white LEDs & LED displays possible. And
| blue light being bad for your circadian rhythm is just as true
| for an LCD display as it is an LED display.
| bombcar wrote:
| Right after the blue LED was possible, _everything_ that
| wanted to appear "high value" was sticking them in as power
| indicators, but they were _much brighter_ than previous LEDs.
|
| I was at college at the time and you could _read a book_ by
| the pulsating sleep blue lights from equipment.
| mdip wrote:
| As I read your statement sitting in my "bedroom office", I
| notice:
|
| My Vizio TV which has a piece of white electrical tape[0]
| with aluminum foil underneath. Incredible failure of
| engineering that has a setting to disable the power LED,
| however, that setting is ignored if you use the "black
| screen" option that kills the screen while the TV continues
| playing ... a feature you are likely to only use if you
| like to sleep to the noise, but not the light, of the
| television.
|
| My switch has a sock wrapped around the front with a piece
| of cardboard jammed in it to keep the blinken-lights from
| creating strobe effects all night.
|
| My monitor, multi-USB charger, have similar black-tape
| treatments that the TV received and the power outlet next
| to my dresser has a piece of white tape on it -- it's a
| smart plug and I'm guessing there was an indicator light
| under that.
|
| The thrown together solutions indicate the worst part. You
| tend to not discover it's a problem until you wake up at
| 2:00 AM and you can't get back to sleep because it's bright
| as early morning in the bedroom.
|
| [0] It was all I had at the time.
| themerone wrote:
| Have you tried a sleep mask? I had to try a bunch before
| I found one (Manta Mask) that was comfortable and stayed
| on.
| jlokier wrote:
| I wasn't a big fan of the excessive blue LEDs that appeared
| everywhere after they were invented, either. Though it was
| understandable enthusiasm for something new by product
| developers, after decades of having only red-green
| combinations.
|
| But blue LEDs are what make white LEDs work, and those have
| revolutionised ordinary lighting in a big way. The linked video
| goes into this at the end.
|
| Blue LEDs (or white LEDs, or blue OLEDs) are also used in
| modern, high quality computer and phone displays.
| jacquesm wrote:
| White LEDs were/are also made using a UV LED and phosphor.
| hugryhoop wrote:
| That sounds dangerous, since not all emissions will be
| converted.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Wait until you find out about fluorescent lamps...
| mattashii wrote:
| If they (or you) use a cap that's opaque to UV but
| transparent to the visible spectrum, then there won't be
| any issues with this.
| polonbike wrote:
| Having blue allowed creating white, and anycolor (RGB) LEDs, so
| I would not dismiss them just because you don't like the blue
| color
| mdip wrote:
| Of course -- and all of that has lead to the display
| technologies we take for granted these days and a number of
| other advances (low cost, low energy, high output LED
| lighting, for example).
|
| This is an example of the reaction to any new technology --
| electric cars catch fire and we suddenly forget we drive
| around in vehicles carrying large quantities of explosive gas
| (and work via controlled explosions). They get stuck in the
| winter and we forget the few times a winter we had to jump
| our gas car to get somewhere. I remember actual indicator
| lamps ... granted, they tended to serve very temporary
| lighting purposes and despite that were still often burned
| out (if your elevator in the 80s had floor indicator lamps,
| 25% or more were dead).
|
| When it's _good_ new technology, as the blue LED objectively
| _is_ , it becomes mass produced and then mass adopted as "the
| cool new thing." And it _was_ the cool new thing -- I
| remember thinking how neat the deep blue LED on my first AV
| receiver was. And then it becomes over-adopted. Most of the
| LEDs I have covered up in my bedroom _aren 't_ blue --
| they're cool white[0] and oh so much brighter than the
| various-shades-of-blue ones that adorn other equipment
| throughout my electronics stuffed house.
|
| [0] If they were warm white, but dim, I'd probably have a
| similar "that's neat" if they looked like earlier indicator
| lamps (but cleaner).
| dylan604 wrote:
| Blue LEDs that are on to let you know something has power is
| abominable, but that isn't the fault of the blue LED. What is
| abominable is the use of the "cooler" blueish white light being
| used at night indoors. That should be considered a crime
| against humanity.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| When did blue become the indicator for "has power"? That has
| traditionally been red or maybe orange/amber even going back
| to miniature incandescent bulbs or neon bulbs.
| dylan604 wrote:
| It became that when it became available.???
|
| exec: I'm sick of that red indicator light?
|
| minion: They just came out with a blue LED we can try.
|
| exec: Perfect. Use it on everything. Our products will look
| different, and people will like it
| dingaling wrote:
| > What is abominable is the use of the > "cooler" blueish
| white light being > used at night indoors.
|
| We only associate warm orangey-white light with nocturnal
| lighting because of centuries of sitting around fires and
| candles.
| jacobolus wrote:
| And because (a) blue light causes your eyes to become
| bright-adapted, ruining your night vision, (b) blue light
| is incredibly distracting in your peripheral vision causing
| massively more glare than "warmer" light sources, (c) blue
| light screws up circadian rhythms for people and wildlife.
| samatman wrote:
| Many millennia, actually. A million years at least, quite
| likely more.
|
| Co-evolving to be comfortable with a certain quality of
| light, is a good argument for maintaining that quality of
| light, and for not using light with a quality which
| triggers subconscious (or conscious) discomfort.
| graphe wrote:
| Green SMD LEDs are just as bad.
| maxglute wrote:
| Blue leds also gave birth to purple leds, which for some reason
| every condo building has multiple units lit up like vampire
| dens.
| ballenf wrote:
| I loved the closing interview where Nakamura explained he grew up
| in a fishing village with a view of the sea, inspiring his love
| of the color blue.
| earthwalker99 wrote:
| > _Sacking and not compensating the employee that single-handedly
| made Nichia successful by inventing a working blue LED and saving
| Nichia from bankruptcy is just not acceptable._
|
| The whole point of capitalism is that capital has more power than
| labor. Any other configuration is not capitalism.
| W4ldi wrote:
| What's your point? That statement has nothing to do with the
| problem at hand.
| Draiken wrote:
| How is that not the problem at hand?
|
| The only reason the inventor didn't get properly compensated
| is because the system is designed to reward existing capital.
|
| I can guarantee you the CEO that inherited the position due
| to family ties didn't earn $60k a year. Neither he worked for
| a year and a half without weekends.
|
| This is capitalism.
| dymk wrote:
| The problem is that he was unfairly compensated by the
| economic system (capitalism) he works in, and had to fight
| for years only to just about break even on legal fees.
|
| The guy's gumption led to the invention of a multi-billion
| dollar pear year industry, and he got basically none of it.
| ralusek wrote:
| The inverse also happens, though, because socialism fails
| to capture the value. According to the labor theory of
| value, for example, his work would've been valued at some
| function of (training * hours worked). Despite creating
| billions in value for humanity, he would've been treated
| very similarly to the rest of his coworkers
| Draiken wrote:
| Nobody's talking about socialism.
|
| But let's say it was a more socialist society. As a
| result, everyone would be earning more, including him.
| And maybe the CEO that tried to fuck his research would
| earn less.
|
| IDK but for me that sounds like a very good trade-off,
| given the CEO did nothing, as always, and got billions.
| legitster wrote:
| > The guy's gumption led to the invention of a multi-
| billion dollar pear year industry, and he got basically
| none of it.
|
| But... the billion dollar industry is also capitalism? This
| logic is circular and makes no sense. If there is no
| capitalism there is no compensation to be distributed in
| this case, period.
|
| The argument that he was unfairly compensated based on
| merit is fundamentally a _capitalist_ argument. You can 't
| play it both ways.
| dymk wrote:
| Are you saying the outcome here is fair and desirable?
|
| The first step to fixing a problem is admitting one
| exists. This seems clearly like a failure of capitalism
| to reward the innovation of a person who actually did the
| innovation.
| legitster wrote:
| Blaming literally anything wrong on "capitalism" is peak
| intellectual laziness. Especially to use a canned definition
| that no one would agree to except those that would confirm your
| priors.
|
| Do these problems not exist under feudalism? Mercantilism?
| Communism? Did soviet inventors fair any better?
|
| You're better off calling a spade a spade. Weird reductionist
| absolutes about society don't make any of us any smarter and
| only steer discussions into unhelpful directions.
| dang wrote:
| Please don't take HN threads on generic ideological tangents.
| They're tedious and repetitive, and therefore boring. Plus then
| they turn nasty.
|
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
|
| Edit: can you please not use HN primarily for ideological
| battle? We have to ban accounts that do that because it
| destroys what this site is supposed to be for. past
| explanations: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all
| &type=comme....
| seanhunter wrote:
| As someone who has trouble sleeping and particularly needs dark
| sleep I wish it had been impossible to make a blue LED.
| adammarples wrote:
| no, we've put it on your headphones, your electric blanket,
| your everything. the blue led must be seen.
| BadHumans wrote:
| Seems like an extreme stance for a easily solvable problem.
| not_a_shill wrote:
| That's how you can tell it's a joke
| tekla wrote:
| It's HN. There is a very strong possibility its not.
| tekla wrote:
| You could, you know, tape over them or something, about 5 mins
| of work.
| k_roy wrote:
| and tape falls off, can impede functionality depending on the
| device, etc
| tekla wrote:
| > tape falls off
|
| So re-apply it when it falls off after 5 years
|
| > can impede functionality
|
| Give me an example where covering up a blue LED impedes
| functionality.
| Exoristos wrote:
| When it's under a grill shared by a vent?
| jpl56 wrote:
| Nail polish on my bluetooth keyboard LED for the win.
| p1mrx wrote:
| I put a few layers of kapton tape on my monitor LED, so the
| bright blue is now a dull green, and the orange standby color
| looks the same.
| pcdoodle wrote:
| Cool!
| amelius wrote:
| The color blue is responsible for a lot of misery.
| wwilim wrote:
| Da ba dee, da ba da
| zehaeva wrote:
| Maybe try an eyemask? I will admit the feeling takes a little
| bit getting used to but I get way better sleep with it than
| without.
| hawski wrote:
| I wonder if there is a part that could replace signaling LEDs
| without emitting their own light. I think transflective LCD
| could work like that. Make it small, round and with two
| contacts like a diode.
| amelius wrote:
| I'm looking for __pink__ leds, but can't find a good source.
| Digikey has only very limited options with many packages like
| 0805 missing.
| kayfox wrote:
| Pink LEDs need a custom phosphor so they may not be available
| in some sizes. They are also not in high demand, so not a lot
| of different parts are made.
| kken wrote:
| https://www.lcsc.com/products/Light-Emitting-Diodes-LED_528....
| amelius wrote:
| Either out of stock or not 0805 ...
| stratigos wrote:
| Blue LEDs are the bane of my light-sensitive eyes' existence, and
| it pains me so to know they _almost_ never existed at all. I keep
| a PC repair kit with me, even though I dont have a desktop
| computer, because I need to take all of my electronics apart and
| take these stupid blue LEDs out of them.
| comradesmith wrote:
| Do you like OLED displays?
| quenix wrote:
| LED lighting wouldn't exist if not for blue LEDs. And neither
| would much of modern display technology. The importance of this
| discovery was not because we could make shiny blue light with
| it.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| > And neither would much of modern display technology.
|
| The vast majority of monitors and televisions are still LCD,
| and they would work Just Fine if they were still using
| fluorescent backlights.
|
| It would have more of an impact on phones, but not earth-
| shaking.
|
| Do blue OLEDs even use the same technology?
| jacobolus wrote:
| LED lighting in practice is typically terrible (though not
| always or inevitably): the spectrum is too blue and too
| spiky, without due respect for human needs. It has ruined
| nighttime lighting, especially outdoors in applications like
| street lamps, car headlamps, camp lamps, and flashlights.
| Whatever marketing people are making decisions in the
| lighting industry have insufficient understanding of human
| color vision and/or just don't care, consumers or other
| people making purchasing decisions have poor understanding of
| the options and their effects, and government regulation has
| not kept up with the technology.
| graphe wrote:
| You never had a problem with green?
| BoppreH wrote:
| Which is why I was always baffled by the decorative lights in my
| old office.
|
| It was a wall with small scattered lights in different colors, so
| they used recessed LEDs. Fine. But instead of color LEDs with a
| neutral diffuser, it had red+green+blue triple LEDs to make white
| light, with a red/green/blue plastic in front to recolor it!
|
| I understand how this could be cheaper to assemble or maintain,
| but I'll never not balk at a system that has components undoing
| each other's work. Feels almost disrepectful to the technology.
| tobr wrote:
| Are you sure they were RGB triplets and not white LEDs? Either
| way, is fun to imagine continuing this - grouping three of
| these filtered LED lights to make a new white light source,
| which you can then again filter with translucent plastic, etc!
| BoppreH wrote:
| The plastic covers are slightly raised from the wall, and if
| you're willing to look silly you can peek behind them.
| They're three colors.
| TylerE wrote:
| Imagine, if you built a giant grid of such things, and could
| modulate the tranlucency 30 times a second or so, you could
| show some sort of.... moving picture show.
| bseidensticker wrote:
| The blue is nicer if you do that. Technology Connections has
| made 3 videos over the last 5 years mostly centering around how
| he hates the blue led lights used in holiday lights. I think
| I've only seen the 2 yr old one, but now that I have I can't
| unsee it. The blue is just too blue. If you see a set that is
| all blue instead of multi-color it's unbearable. It's just too
| blue. White light in blue plastic is where it's at.
|
| https://youtu.be/PBFPJ3_6ZWs?si=sTeRrqQ5umHsNCgz
| https://youtu.be/cQgcTkXacAc?si=CDj0G9Sh7S-wbLjN
| https://youtu.be/va1rzP2xIx4?si=cAp65hnmwtkrXgDc
| tshaddox wrote:
| > White light in blue plastic is where it's at.
|
| But the commenter said it was red, green, and blue LEDs
| together, with a blue diffuser over them. Depending on the
| diffuser, that could produce a more pleasant result (by
| allowing some monochromatic red and green through), but it
| presumably wouldn't solve the underlying problem that
| monochromatic blue light can be unpleasant.
| cypherpunks01 wrote:
| I thought this was a really well-produced video! It's difficult
| to communicate science to the public in an accessible way at the
| right level, and I think Derek does a commendable job.
|
| I really liked the LED explanation at the 4:00 mark. Can anyone
| who is familiar with semiconductor physics opine on how well this
| explanation models the reality?
| quenix wrote:
| Yeah, all I can say is that is tracked my undergraduate
| semiconductor theory classes pretty well. More confirmation
| needed.
| ace2358 wrote:
| I would agree. Having said that I still think it was a bit
| wishy washy. The whole treatment of band gap energies I think
| is quite complicated beyond the simple diagram shown.
| pfdietz wrote:
| Also, I don't think the explanation for silicon was
| correct. As I understand it, the problem with Si is not
| that the bandgap is in the infrared, it's that it's an
| indirect bandgap semiconductor which suppresses emission of
| photons. Instead, the energy of recombination goes into
| heat.
| empath-nirvana wrote:
| My 5 and 7 year old watched the whole thing with me and had
| lots of follow up questions for me.
| whycome wrote:
| You're the dream mom/dad.
|
| A cool chance to show the importance of determination!
| archontes wrote:
| Bachelor's in engineering physics (condensed matter
| experimental)/EE specializing in semiconductors here. The
| explanation starting at 4:00 is very accurate.
|
| When he talks about the electrons "feeling" the neighboring
| atoms, he's talking specifically about a result that follows
| from the materials being crystalline, that is, having regular
| ordered structure. The regular structure gives rise to a
| periodic potential. You plug that periodic potential into the
| Schrodinger equation and apply continuity conditions and
| translational symmetry to the wavefunction. Computing the
| solutions to the Schrodinger equation with those conditions
| reveals that there are allowed and disallowed energy levels,
| and also reveals the relationship between energy and momentum
| in the crystal lattice. You can step through this by reading
| the wikipedia page on the Kronig-Penney Model. This depends on
| the periodicity, which obviously can change depending on
| direction in a crystal.
|
| His explanation, and the result that "the" band gap is a single
| number, isn't dishonest because when we grow semiconductor
| devices, we grow them such that the crystal is oriented such
| that current flows in the desired direction, so that simple
| result holds true.
|
| Even his portrayal of the bands leaning down as
| potential/voltage is applied mirrors how potential change is
| shown in diagrams of semiconductor devices, see Streetman and
| Banerjee - Solid State Electronic Devices.
| cypherpunks01 wrote:
| That's great! Much appreciated, thanks :)
| archontes wrote:
| Do be careful, though. Some other folks here are saying,
| correctly, that this glosses over the "direct" or
| "indirect" nature of a semiconductor. I only very slightly
| alluded to this when mentioning the relationship between
| energy and momentum.
|
| Trying to make a long story short, it can be the case that
| in order to transition to another energy level, an electron
| _also_ has to exchange momentum with _something_ , usually
| the lattice in the form of quantized vibrations. Photons
| carry energy but almost no momentum, so an indirect
| semiconductor (one that requires both energy and momentum
| exchange for a transition to the conduction band) is
| usually an abysmal choice for optoelectronics.
| 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
| I liked it, though it bugs me a little when people equate
| infrared and heat. Infrared is light. Light can heat things,
| and hot things can glow, but "infrared is heat" isn't exactly
| right.
| Smoosh wrote:
| I agree with you, but I think that for the general public you
| have to relate to what they experience, and thus intuitively
| know, and that is that heat "seems" to be different from
| light.
| amarant wrote:
| I know basically nothing about physics, so sorry if this is a
| dumb question.
|
| The existence of infrared LEDs seems to indicate to me that
| infrared light can exist without heat.
|
| The existence of infrared thermometers seems to imply that
| hot stuff radiates infrared light, at least usually.
|
| So my question is, is there any case where heat does not
| cause infrared radiation? What are those cases? Some special
| materials? Special colours(perhaps outside the visible
| spectrum)?
| elevatedastalt wrote:
| That's a good question. All bodies above the temperature of
| absolute zero emit electromagnetic radiation across the
| whole spectrum (this is called Black-body radiation). Think
| of it as a mixture of different amounts of light of every
| possible wavelength.
|
| However, what the exact mixture is depends on the
| temperature of the body. As the body gets hotter, the
| 'peak' wavelength, i.e. the wavelength whose "amount" is
| highest in the mixture decreases.
|
| Objects at room temperature emit most of their energy
| outside of the visible spectrum, so they are not 'visible'
| in the dark. However, as you heat them up, the radiation
| mixture moves towards lower wavelengths, closer to infra-
| red. Heat it up further and things become red hot, yellow,
| blue hot and so on.
|
| Infra-red LEDs produce light of the the specific infrared
| wavelength through semi-conductors. They have nothing to do
| with the black-body radiation one associates with 'hot'
| objects.
| JohnFen wrote:
| I agree. Setting how LEDs work aside, I never really _got_ how
| semiconductors worked, despite reading about it and talking
| with experts for years, until this video.
|
| I mean, I could explain how they worked in the same ways that
| they were explained to me, but I couldn't connect those
| explanations to a true physical understanding.
|
| But thanks to this, I finally actually understand.
|
| Also, the LED story was fascinating.
| thirdhaf wrote:
| The explanation is really well done, it captures the essence of
| the Pauli exclusion principle without delving too deeply into
| the weeds. In my opinion the best part of the video is the
| explanation of the "hole" quasiparticle at 6:10 (I learned this
| as a pseudo-particle but will defer to Wikipedia [1]).
|
| While a great introduction to semiconductor behavior this does
| gloss over a very important detail namely direct vs indirect
| semicondoctors as some others have mentioned. In the video the
| detail that's glossed over relates to the nature of crystals,
| namely that they're highly ordered repeating structures but
| that they don't look the same when viewed from every direction.
| This means that there isn't a single band-gap but multiple ones
| depending on the direction of the crystal you're contemplating.
|
| At this point you may reasonably ask why the direction matters
| and now we unfortunately get deep into the weeds with quantum
| mechanics again. When a single photon is absorbed in the
| semiconductor system both momentum and energy must be
| conserved. The momentum of the photon for something like the
| Silicon bandgap is quite small (something like the equivalent
| of an electron traveling at 1500m/s) while the momentum of
| room-temperature conduction electrons is substantially faster
| [2] so as a very slight simplification transitions due to the
| absorption of photons are not accompanied by a change in
| momentum and so we only care about the band structure (and the
| accompanying free carriers) associated with a particular
| crystal direction.
|
| In particular in Silicon you have what's called an indirect
| bandgap, namely the minimum energy conduction band electrons
| have a different momentum from the valence band holes ([3]) and
| as a consequence while you can _absorb_ a photon in order to
| make a detector you cannot make it efficiently _emit_ a photon
| as an LED should (something the video got wrong).
|
| None of this matters for the heart of the video, which focuses
| blue LEDs in the GaN materials system which is definitely a
| direct bandgap material, however if someone does manage to
| create a manufacturable light emitter in pure Silicon expect an
| absolute revolution with regards to optical computing and
| photonics. (Not for lack of trying, this has been the holy
| grail for at least 20 years, possibly longer)
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasiparticle [2]
| https://www.chu.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Chen...
| [3] https://www.iue.tuwien.ac.at/phd/wessner/node31.html
| Draiken wrote:
| It's incredible to see with cases like this how extremely absurd
| the relationship of capital and labor is.
|
| If I was someone aspiring to be a researcher, I'd most definitely
| give up due to stories like this. The person created probably
| close to trillions of value to humanity (his LEDs spawned
| multiple new industries), yet he was compensated less than what I
| make with web development.
|
| Meanwhile the CEO and other businesses profited from his research
| for one reason only: they already had capital.
|
| Call me crazy but smart people that want to do research should do
| it and get well compensated for it, even if they don't invent
| something as pivotal as this. But because of stories like this,
| many smart people will never even consider a career as a
| researcher because the majority would be rewarded with poverty.
|
| Meanwhile if you release a new shitcoin at the right time, or
| you're posting near naked pictures on Instagram, you get rewarded
| handsomely.
|
| What a fucked up society we created for ourselves.
| lucianbr wrote:
| > The person created probably close to trillions of value to
| humanity (his LEDs spawned multiple new industries), yet he was
| compensated less than what I make with web development.
|
| While decrying unfairness towards a single researcher, you seem
| to ignore the contribution of who knows how many people
| comprising "multiple new industries". I mean, the people
| working in those industries also contributed to those
| trillions, no?
|
| It definitely seems unfair to Nakamura. Just pointing out it's
| really hard to be fair to everyone, as your comment
| inadvertently proves. At least he got a Nobel prize, which
| means both recognition and money.
| dang wrote:
| Could you please stop using HN for ideological battle? Your
| account has been doing this a lot lately, and when an account
| is primarily doing that, this is a line at which we ban the
| account. Past explanations:
| https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
|
| We detached this subthread from
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39314755.
| Draiken wrote:
| I don't understand. This is literally part of what the video
| talks about: how he got fired after giving them billions. How
| is this an ideological battle? It's what was described in the
| video.
|
| I don't disagree that I talk about capitalism on some threads
| that aren't specifically mentioning it, but in this case it's
| 100% part of the content.
|
| I can only hope that the same treatment happens for accounts
| with the opposite view.
| tobr wrote:
| What happened to zinc selenide then? Was there some reason it
| didn't work out as well?
| ak217 wrote:
| Selenium is much more toxic than gallium, so even if it could
| be tweaked to work, it's a very hazardous chemical to produce
| or recycle. I'd expect that to be the main reason nobody
| bothers with zinc selenide anymore.
| angarg12 wrote:
| There is something oddly humbling and inspiring about this story.
| The scientist thanklessly slaved away for a year and half before
| even producing the first breakthrough. It must require an immense
| amount of perseverance to do so. It also reminds me to the craft
| mentality and patience of Jiro dreams of sushi.
|
| Very refreshing when contrasted with western mentality, where
| people can't wait to get promoted fast enough.
| Jare wrote:
| You're comparing a whole billion people to someone who went on
| to earn a Nobel, it's a little unfair. There's plenty of people
| in the West (and East, and South and North) with massive, even
| unhealthy grit and determination, and plenty of people in Japan
| that just conform to the standard work culture of the country.
| otherme123 wrote:
| Also survivor bias at 11. I bet there are currently
| thousands, all around the world, devoting their lives to
| something that would not yield any significant result. Like
| the nuclear fussion menctioned in the video.
| willis936 wrote:
| I'd rather grind to put humanity on a better path than to
| be cozy leeching off our unsustainable path.
| Uehreka wrote:
| > Very refreshing when contrasted with western mentality, where
| people can't wait to get promoted fast enough.
|
| The guy arm-wrestled the laws of physics to create something
| everyone including his own bosses said was impossible, and for
| his labors he got raised to $60k/yr (yeah I know it's more now,
| but not like 10x more). I'd say this is more of a cautionary
| tale for ambitious inventors to demand their worth from their
| employers, as opposed to a fable about good things happening to
| people who keep their heads down and just work.
| foobarian wrote:
| The puzzling thing is how he was able to just keep ignoring
| orders from management to stop working on the pet project.
| Clearly this required quite some resources to continue and he
| didn't get fired. I don't know if I could get away with this at
| a Faang-type job.
| tmnvix wrote:
| I've always found it interesting that you could roughly date the
| age of electronics by the colour of the LEDs. Haven't seen (or
| heard, thank goodness) the once ubiquitous red alarm clock for
| some time.
| morkalork wrote:
| Blue led lights on appliances and devices drive my astigmatism
| bonkers and night.
| graphe wrote:
| Nichia still makes the best color LEDs. Semi-recently they made a
| UV free LED for artworks.
| mb_72 wrote:
| I remember when blue LEDs started appearing in guitar FX pedals
| just out of novelty,resulting in a pedals becoming harder to use
| as when the pedal was on the brightness meant visibility of the
| controls was reduced. On pedals I made I always used fine
| sandpaper to increase the diffusion of each LED, and the result
| was significantly better. Early blue LEDs,especially, seemed to
| have a very narrow projection angle.
| disillusioned wrote:
| They sell LED dimming (and blackout) stickers on Amazon, and
| those things have been a lifesaver for me. My new USB-C
| charging block is brighter than the sun and the LED is
| functionally useless, so it's been masked with the blackout
| version of the stickers, but my Dyson fan which has a blue
| power LED (which turns to red when it's on heat mode) and
| BRIGHT WHITE LED temperature readout in heat mode has gotten
| the dimming treatment. Nice because you can still see the
| light, but 80% less bright, so I can sleep at night.
| JohnFen wrote:
| Blue LEDs are an amazing and badly needed advance -- but you're
| right, the _abuse_ of blue LEDs has been, and continues to be,
| really awful.
| ghaff wrote:
| He won the 2015 Draper Prize when there was still an annual
| lecture. Got to attend it. Amazing stuff.
| Covzire wrote:
| Coincidentally I believe all birds with blue features don't get
| them from pigment per se but from the way their unique keratin
| structure only reflects blue light.
|
| There's just something different about blue in nature too it
| seems.
| jfjjfjfjj wrote:
| This video reminded me of an interview I did a few years back.
| There was an interesting robotics startup in Tokyo that I was
| talking to and they ended up rejecting me because I have an MS
| and another candidate had a PhD. The job paid $65K with very
| little equity and very few benefits. A few weeks later I got a
| job in SF that paid total comp >$250K plus tons of benefits.
| Japanese engineering compensation is quite poor and the
| stereotypes about grinding workers into a pulp are absolutely
| still true.
| Gibbon1 wrote:
| That's what I've seen, engineers working 50-60 hour weeks like
| it's gaming company or a faang. Except it's Hitachi. Bonus a
| lot of these guys are fluent in English. In the bay area they
| could make double for half the hours.
| hackd997865 wrote:
| Watched this today! The production quality and the content are
| outstanding, 33 mins well spent :)
| ddingus wrote:
| That was a great story! We have the blue ones because one guy was
| willing to put it all on the line to get it done.
|
| Amazing so much hangs on just one of us sometimes.
|
| We also have it because the research scientist acquired real
| electromechanical skill. Most of the time those skills are not
| there and my mind is on fire thinking about what could be done,
| and done faster with that kind of know how more broadly
| distributed.
|
| Not having that PhD sucked mostly due to peers not valuing other
| skills.
|
| I know a chemistry professor who values these things. I met him
| while setting some polymer equipment up. (Limiting details here
| to keep from outing people who may well read here. (Hello, from
| you know who in Oregon!))
|
| Basically, this prof has a parts and equipment depot. Anytime
| there is an opportunity to score inexpensive, relevant gear, they
| do it.
|
| Students often build the gear they need. This may not be science
| grade, but it is almost always enough to validate a research
| path, or some other plan, including procurement or access to
| science grade equipment later on.
|
| In my discussions, those students live the program and know the
| value they are getting.
|
| Essentially, it is the same high value our Blue LED making friend
| has seen; namely, more direct agency and control with far fewer,
| maybe even zero dependencies navigate.
|
| They can explore even higher risk areas of research and then upon
| seeing potential outcomes worth publishing, can put their stuff
| to work how they need, when they need.
|
| A quick look back through history shows us a whole lot of the
| hard won scientific understanding we value and depend on,
| engineer with, came to us via people who could make things as
| well as think and observe. Add computation to that list as well.
|
| Academia could use a whole lot more of this as could public
| research and even private research programs.
|
| Again, great story. Love it.
| kak3a wrote:
| I'm aware the key to LED commoditizing is making fundamental
| materials for blue LED. Veritasium is a great story teller with
| just right amount of physical for the geek alike.
| willis936 wrote:
| The first ten minutes is the best explanation of conductors,
| insulators, and semiconductors I've seen. The rest is a gripping
| human story with science sprinkled in. The maker /
| experimentalist spirit strongly resonates with me. There's a line
| at the end for climate change and fusion folks.
|
| This video is to adult me what Back to the Future was to kid me:
| it has it all.
| crtified wrote:
| After the blue LED came onto the market in the 1990s, it took
| less than a decade for them to become shelf items of a couple
| dollars each at electronics retailers.
|
| It was also around that time that web-based communities of
| computer technicians really took off. Web forums, etc.
|
| The coincidence led (yup!) to a love-at-first-sight relationship.
| Funny as it may seem now, being a mere 20 years later (or: "holy
| crap, it's been 20 years!, how did that happen??"), there were a
| few years there in the 2000-2005 region during which the de-
| riguer of computer nerdery was to go blue LED crazy.
|
| It felt elite, cutting edge, rare, oh-so-techy. And it's funny
| now, to look back at the windowed PC cases full of LEDs and
| garishly lit by cold cathode tubes, with our mouses and speakers
| and other electronic gadgets painstakingly swapped over to blue.
|
| And within a further couple of years - from about 2005 onward, if
| not sooner - the commercial market had taken over the trend and
| made it boring, passe. We hackers and overclockers weren't
| interested any more. Indeed, these ultra bright things began to
| get annoying. Within about 5 years the modding scene's blue LED
| craze began, peaked, commercialised, became a liability ... at
| which point we began to hastily obscure our blinding
| modifications with _another_ , very different, product whose very
| identity hinges upon the colour blue : Blu-Tack! [0]
|
| So where did it all end up, this short-lived cultural crossover
| between blue LEDs and hackers? Well, basically, the commercial
| market morphed into the "RGB" movement of lit-up computer
| hardware. RGB fans, RGB cases, RGB panels on graphics cards, etc.
| But I still think the blue LED is pretty cool.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu_Tack
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