[HN Gopher] Pakistan cuts off phone and internet services on ele...
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Pakistan cuts off phone and internet services on election day
Author : moose44
Score : 169 points
Date : 2024-02-08 15:50 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (techcrunch.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (techcrunch.com)
| sofixa wrote:
| On one hand, this is a classic dictatorship move. Senegal just
| did the same just after postponing elections.
|
| On the other hand, Pakistan really did have terrorist attacks
| just before the election, targeted at the election. So taking
| heavy handed steps to protect the election integrity can be
| explained.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| As an idea, media moratoriums immediately prior to elections
| seems fairly sensible. AI and disinformation attacks are likely
| to be 'last minute'. Maybe the _entire_ phone and Internet
| system is going a bit far. Also, obtaining broad consensus for
| just muting the main social media channels doesn 't seem that
| unreasonable. My thought is, unless gunmen are showing up at
| polling stations, what exactly is so urgent to discuss that
| people haven't already made up their minds about in 24 hours?
| Here's a few pro and anti standpoints [0..3].
|
| [0] https://tech-ish.com/2024/01/12/2024-elections-internet-
| blac...
|
| [1] https://www.axios.com/2020/09/25/majority-polled-back-a-
| soci...
|
| [2] https://www.wired.com/story/opinion-on-the-week-of-the-
| elect...
|
| [3] https://cybershow.uk/blog/posts/election-disinfo/
| giantg2 wrote:
| "As an idea, media moratoriums immediately prior to elections
| seems fairly sensible. AI and disinformation attacks are
| likely to be 'last minute'."
|
| Not just for misinformation, but for true information that
| can inject bias into the decision. Many people use polls
| leading up to an election to pick the winner. Primaries are
| an institutionalized version of this where the first few
| states get greater influence of the options available in the
| others. If we actually want to pick the best people, then we
| should be working to eliminate bias.
|
| I would love to see heavy restrictions in campaign
| advertising, the creation of a central campaign website on
| which every registered candidate gets a page to design, same
| day national primaries, some implementation of ranked choice
| voting, and restrictions on predictive polling or other
| predictive reporting that can influence the result. Although
| these raise many first amendment questions around legality.
| omajid wrote:
| I think looking at actions around elections in Pakistan
| through a western lens can lead to false conclusions easily.
| Let me try and explain through an analogy.
|
| Suppose a US political party (A) decided it wanted to win the
| US elections no matter what. And it had enough clout,
| "campaign contributions", among the various government
| agencies (courts, police, FBI) to make it happen. But it just
| didn't have the votes to make it happen. So it used the court
| system to declare an entire opposite party (B) as in-eligible
| to run the country. If you support Republicans/Trump, think
| Trump is found in-eligible and the _entire_ Republican party
| is too. If you support Democrats, think Biden and the
| _entire_ Democrat party are banned from running in elections.
| That means every single member of the house that claims to be
| from party B is banned as running for that party. And this
| isn 't done 2 years in advance, but mere days/weeks from the
| election.
|
| That sounds entirely undemocratic, right?
|
| Now the party B figures out that it represents the will of
| the people enough and it has enough votes that it could not
| only run but has a decent chance at winning. So, the members
| decide to run as Independents. How do you communicate this to
| the voters quickly? When Charlie goes in to vote for someone
| from B, how does he find out who to vote for?
|
| Now, add another issue to the mix. Party A really wants to
| win (when it can't in an ideal democracy) so it makes it
| difficult to vote for people in districts where it knows it
| is unpopular. Alice, Bob and Charlie can be living in the
| same household but get assigned 3 different voting locations.
| Imagine they all live in Dallas, TX and get asked to vote in
| 3 different locations in Fort-Worth, Garland and Irving.
|
| Now, the only way Charlie can still vote for the candidate
| that he thinks represents his views the best is to make use
| of websites to look up where to vote and which candidate is
| associated with the now-banned party B. Without internet and
| other sources of instant and mass communication, Charlie
| can't do that.
|
| As a result of these actions, party B loses the election and
| party A wins.
|
| Please note this is a very biased - but plausible - way to
| interpret the events around the current elections in
| Pakistan. But hopefully that perspective helps on why
| blocking the internet and controlling the means of
| communication is so important to certain individuals,
| companies, and political parties in Pakistan. And also why we
| can't look at the situation from the outside and fully
| understand the nuances at play.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| Hmm, I tried to follow but that seemed a little elaborate.
| I think if someone tried to pull-off what you described
| (declaring a candidate disqualified within a week of an
| election) you'd have civil unrest or worse on your hands
| regardless any information flows.
| omajid wrote:
| Like I said, it is one plausible interpretation of
| events. It started almost a year ago, and it's been
| reaching a crescendo roughly last week. And since this is
| Pakistan, civil unrest is quite common anyway. Heck,
| there's an entire article on the start of this election
| cycle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022%E2%80%932023_Pa
| kistan_pol...
|
| Specific sources to back up my claims:
|
| - "So it used the court system to declare an entire
| opposite party (B) as in-eligible to run the country" and
| "And this isn't done 2 years in advance, but mere
| days/weeks from the election"
| https://time.com/6556335/pakistan-election-imran-khan-
| nawaz-sharif-military-pti/: > On Monday [Jan
| 15, 2024], Khan's PTI party was banned from using its
| iconic cricket bat logo on ballot papers, significantly
| hampering its chances amongst an electorate which is up
| to 40% illiterate. Most crucially, it effectively bans
| the PTI as a party and means its candidates will likely
| have to stand as independents, who will reportedly use a
| range of symbols ranging from a rollercoaster to a goat.
| "The election symbol is an integral component of fair
| elections," Raoof Hasan, PTI's principal spokesman and a
| former special assistant to Khan, tells TIME. "It's
| rendering the party toothless." And similarly,
| a previously-disqulified party leader (think Trump/Biden)
| was suddenly eligible to run again.
| https://apnews.com/article/pakistan-elections-
| timeline-36ed1d7bc77e78e630044d33ef624454: >
| Jan. 8, 2024 -- The Supreme Court scraps a lifetime ban
| on politicians with criminal convictions from contesting
| elections, clearing the way for Nawaz Sharif to seek a
| fourth term in office
|
| - "The members decide to run as Independents. How do you
| communicate this to the voters quickly? When Charlie goes
| in to vote for someone from B, how does he find out who
| to vote for?" https://twitter.com/PTIoffi
| cial/status/1748893680084111408?lang=en: >
| Following website will provide you information about
| Elections 2024: https://insaf.pk/election2024 >
| > Type in your Halqa/Constituency Number to find: >
| - Name of Imran Khan's designated candidate > -
| Electoral symbol name & picture > - A WhatsApp
| channel link for the respective Halqa/Constituency, to
| get timely information
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| Sorry I did not realise you are describing a sequence of
| events that actually happened/are happening. Yes I am
| looking though my (UK) lens of a slightly saner election
| (I hope), not one where civil unrest is already the
| backdrop.
| ffgjgf1 wrote:
| > you'd have civil unrest or worse on your hands
| regardless any information flows.
|
| In a normal state sure. In a semi-failed state which no
| sane person would consider a democracy? Probably not so
| much..
| notpushkin wrote:
| Not if you can't have civil unrest. This has been
| happening in Russia for like every election cycle, and
| people do try to protest, but those protests are being
| quickly suppressed, each year more and more violently.
| almatabata wrote:
| > My thought is, unless gunmen are showing up at polling
| stations, what exactly is so urgent to discuss that people
| haven't already made up their minds about in 24 hours?
|
| If they got blasted with misinformation 24/7 before election
| day, how much will those 24 hours help them make an informed
| opinion? It might stop last minute attempts at swaying the
| election. But it will not stop long running campaigns.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| That is indeed a different and separate problem in a
| different information space. Personally, I don't think any
| kind of censorship is useful or justified there.
| throwaway2203 wrote:
| Hearing from friends that there were a lot of last minute
| shenanigans like poll locations getting changed, candidates
| election symbols getting changed (important given the lack
| of literacy).
| stratocumulus0 wrote:
| Some countries including my home country Poland impose a ban
| on political agitation on the election day. It means that no
| political content may be published on that day, but whatever
| has been published before that is allowed to stay. This is an
| old law which predates the Internet, so anything from social
| media posts to hanging up election posters is liable to be
| prosecuted and the authorities frequently do so. It's less
| drastic than in Pakistan, more drastic than in the West, but
| it certainly does cause a chilling effect on people when they
| know they may lose a few thousands if they get caught.
| hiAndrewQuinn wrote:
| Wait, do Polish people not consider themselves part of the
| West?
|
| Genuine question. I've met and worked with quite a few
| Poles since moving to the EU and my current takeaway is
| that it's in a really interesting fusion time between West,
| East, and some more mysterious third thing.
| yau8edq12i wrote:
| I guess it was a shorthand for western Europe.
| bluefirebrand wrote:
| "The West" is a very murky sort of definition. Arguably
| the colloquial "Cultural West" is what is on the Western
| side of what used to be called the Iron Curtain. Poland
| was definitely on the Eastern side of that.
| foobarian wrote:
| I think being strongly Catholic draws Poland into the
| Western sphere in spite of the Cold War divisions.
| The_Colonel wrote:
| Iron Curtain was a political, not cultural border.
| Western civilization usually includes all European
| catholic countries, i. e. also Poland. (Huntington is a
| notorious example)
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| _> Western civilization usually includes all European
| catholic countries, i. e. also Poland. (Huntington is a
| notorious example)_
|
| What about European Orthodox countries? Does civilization
| only tie to catholic religion?
| bluefirebrand wrote:
| Yeah of course it was a political border but it
| absolutely had cultural consequences.
|
| You can literally see the difference in Berlin on either
| side of the wall. The Eastern side is similar but still
| different to the Western, culturally.
|
| Even the architecture is still quite different between
| the two sides.
| mikrl wrote:
| Historically, Poland was both and is a transition region
| between central and Eastern Europe.
|
| Even when Poland was conquered, it was still the
| interface between a central/western empire (Reich
| Germany) an eastern empire (Russia) and an in-between
| empire (Austria-Hungary) but I would certainly call a
| city like Bialystok 'eastern', but not necessarily
| Warsaw, Krakow or Wroclaw.
|
| The trouble is that what counts as 'Eastern' Europe can
| be demarcated by several large historical events
| (Mongols, flavour of Christianity, Communism, etc) so a
| definitive answer is hard to give.
| avgcorrection wrote:
| On the other hand an American (migrant) doing an about
| face about a group of people based on preconceived
| notions is completely expected.
| ffjffsfr wrote:
| It is complicated. Most people in Poland do consider
| themselves part of Europe, sometimes even part of the
| West. At the same time people in Poland often contrast
| the West (as in Western Europe and US) with Poland and
| perceive west as something different and better. It is
| sort of post colonial mentality but with a twist, because
| it is not tied to race. This idealised "West" is often
| very far from real situation in Western Europe. On the
| other part of the spectrum you got polish conservatives
| who see west as degraded and fallen. They used to say
| things like: France no longer exists. Meaning France is
| not what it used to be; it is not true west because they
| lost the spirit of real west.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| Genuinely very curious what you (and more generally other
| Poles) think of that? Also is it effective (of course you
| have no control case for comparison)? Thanks.
| riffraff wrote:
| Not OP but we have the same regulation in Italy, coupled
| with one that forbids sharing opinion polls some days
| before the elections.
|
| People don't particularly care either way.
|
| They were somewhat effective pre-social media, but they
| relied also on a certain amount of fair play which is no
| longer as common as it once was.
| yau8edq12i wrote:
| Same here in France, and I guess most developed
| countries.
| KptMarchewa wrote:
| People go around it by sharing "vegetable prices" on
| Twitter. It's not very effective, but at least prevents
| stunts outside voting places.
| jdietrich wrote:
| We have similar restrictions in the UK. In the weeks before
| an election, government ministers and civil servants are
| not allowed to announce new policies or spending. On
| polling day, broadcast media cannot report on political
| matters or speculate about the outcome of the election. We
| also have extremely strict limits on campaign finance.
|
| https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-
| briefings/sn05...
|
| https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/11/media/uk-election-
| reporti...
|
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50170067
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| Thanks dietrich, and for the helpful links to make the
| case. I may revise the blog post to incorporate those
| points.
| mprovost wrote:
| Famously the BBC shows pictures of dogs at polling
| stations on election day so it's not political.
|
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/in-pictures-61333251
| avgcorrection wrote:
| On the one hand, maybe. On the other hand you lose democracy
| "bragging rights" when you have to protect the soft skulls of
| your subjects.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| Yes there's some of loss of the sense of absolute
| democratic purity. But then Aristotle saw that tradeoff
| against real polity quite some time back.
|
| I think your point (that people ought to be smart and
| strong enough to withstand all and any malign influence(?))
| made a lot more sense 20 years ago. In the Internet and AI
| influence age I think things have significantly changed.
| It's the integrity of the democratic process rather than
| the "soft skills" that requires a little more protection.
| avgcorrection wrote:
| "Disinformation" is always a smokescreen. All nominal
| (keyword) democratic processes are filled with
| disinformation: standard advertisement. Those who want
| peace, lay down your own arms as well (no takers).
|
| Like almost 2 years of election circus in the US federal
| election.
|
| > I think your point (that people ought to be smart and
| strong enough to withstand all and any malign
| influence(?))
|
| That's absurd. I don't conceptualize "people" as some
| not-me group.
|
| Well I'm not Indian^W Pakistani but the principle is
| universal.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| Here's a document I am currently reading for my research
| [0]. It contains some interesting definitions I hope you
| find helpful.
|
| [0] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/20
| 21/6536...
| avgcorrection wrote:
| Helpful?
|
| > Here, disinformation refers to false, inaccurate or
| misleading information designed, presented and promoted
| intentionally to cause public harm or make a profit.
|
| Is campaigning on lies a form of profit? You might win.
| These hypocrites really dare to present this as _novel?_
| Lying in politics?
|
| What's really the practical difference between this
| ostensibly oh-so clearly demarcated "disinformation" and
| less outright other-information? The difference is having
| a discourse fog which makes it practically impossible to
| conclude anything without sinking into a quagmire of
| rhetoric.
|
| Here's a "Beijing" statement, hypothetical:
|
| > We the people of China
|
| Ah! the eggheads exclaim. Propaganda! Clear
| disinformation since China is an authoritarian state
| (sorry, regime)--it can't be a state "of the people".
|
| Here's a "Washington" statement:
|
| > The President does not suffer symptoms of senility
|
| What is this? This is twenty different articles and op-
| eds back and forth on this topic:
|
| - Well he went to the doctor 15 years ago and he said he
| was fine
|
| - My good friend Joe Biden would never become demented--
| he would rather [redacted]
|
| - I respect the President but it's time for some young
| blood in leadership
|
| - As a close aide to the President, blah blah
|
| - He might not seem as sharp as 12 years ago but
| [diversion tactic]
|
| Isn't it amazing--you cannot peddle outright
| disinformation if you are sufficiently powerful, almost
| by definition; there is always some clown who will bat
| for you. And the result? A discourse fog. No one is a
| liar. No one is peddling "disinformation for profit."
|
| In conclusion: what _we_ do are varying levels of
| information. But what these foreign forces do (because
| they are not here to defend themselves, and anyone who
| defends them (or just has a nuanced point of view) is
| just <regime>-puppet anyway) is disinformation because
| they clearly are X while they claim to be Y.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| It seems natural that those who have power get to
| proclaim what is 'true' and what is 'false'. Foucault,
| Wittgenstein, Ayer, Chomsky, practically everyone who
| spared it a thought would agree with you.
|
| That's a fundamental misunderstanding around the word
| "authority" (which we confuse with power in "western"
| language)
|
| Firstly, what power says is immaterial with regard to
| actual truth or falsehood. That's why people wear
| T-shirts that say "Science is a bitch huh?". Certainly,
| millions may die because a man with a big gun, a big ego
| and a small penis swears that black is white, but ain't
| it always been so? Tomorrow you get to hold the gun, and
| suddenly _you 're_ "right".
|
| But most importantly, "disinformation" has nothing to do
| with truth or falsehood. It's about intent. The word
| "intention" is right there. Otherwise what you have is
| "misinformation".
|
| What pleases me about the linked definition is that
| profit and harm are deemed unacceptable intents. That
| scoops up every lying advertiser, every manipulative Big-
| Tech company, and every lying domestic politician into
| the "disinformation" net too, and for me that makes the
| world a better place. YMMV.
| pphysch wrote:
| How does cutting off communications prevent terrorist cells
| from executing their planned attacks?
|
| The real reason is obviously that the ruling elite usurped and
| imprisoned Pakistan's most popular leader, which means the
| political situation is very volatile.
| dageshi wrote:
| Bombs with mobile phones attached designed to trigger when
| the phone is called/texted?
| jasonjayr wrote:
| Cheap battery powered mesh radio devices could just as
| easily trigger something, and be difficult to trace.
| jstarfish wrote:
| These are terror attacks, not three people trying to shoot
| the same target in a motorcade.
|
| It impedes their situational awareness. If they're waiting on
| signals that never come, you win. If you capture one, he
| can't warn the others.
|
| You know what they say about plans and first contact with the
| enemy...
| jrockway wrote:
| I guess it's not a terrorist attack if nobody knows about it.
| Imagine you see the news "Poll site in the Bronx firebombed"
| right before you head out to vote. You're going to think
| twice about voting. But if you don't see that news story,
| you'll just go vote, because you don't know there's a risk of
| being killed.
|
| The logic makes sense but I wouldn't like to see a media ban
| here. "Congress shall make no law..."
| TriNetra wrote:
| IN Pakistan army decides and is the real ruler. Elections are
| only a face to appear as a democratic sate. In fact Pakistan
| elite (including army higher ranks) just is there to milk the
| country and build estates outside (West/UAE/etc).
| wozniacki wrote:
| Isnt it also true that no democratically elected or coup-
| installed Prime Minister in Pakistan's history has ever
| successfully completed a single full term in office, ever
| since their independence[1]?
|
| And if that is true, isn't Pakistan a glorified tin-pot
| republic, thats democracy only on paper & manages to stay
| alive at the mercy of the propping-up prowess of U.S. and
| U.K., to act as a lily pad[2] of sorts in the region?
|
| [1]
|
| Every time the gov't topples (no Pakistani Prime Minister has
| completed 5 years in office), corruption/looting reaches even
| higher levels... ...to replenish and grow the bounty that was
| paid to buy out votes in elections and in the parliament.
| Sad, but v familiar to Pakistanis. 12:08 PM * Apr 9, 2022
|
| https://twitter.com/bznotes/status/1512870199338287106
|
| [2] Cooperative security location
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative_security_location
| lainga wrote:
| Funny way to express the $65 billion of FDI that China's
| put into Pakistan, along with joint development of the
| JF-17 and 47% of China's arms exports as a whole, isn't it?
|
| Or has the near-total cut in US military aid to Pakistan
| over 2018-2022 been a delayed _coup de grace_ , and should
| we expect the country to implode at any minute?
| user3939382 wrote:
| Or is the US the real ruler? By all evidence we ousted their
| President for not supporting the war in Ukraine.
| notpushkin wrote:
| Your point being?..
| scotty79 wrote:
| This dynamics is the underlying principle of every democracy.
| Only the sophistication of the civilian facade differs.
|
| If you want to see how fast things show their true colors
| stop paying "your" soldiers. When it happens due to breakdown
| of government-nation relationship coup or military
| pacification of civilians is imminent.
| rightbyte wrote:
| > ... every democracy ... If you want to see how fast
| things show their true colors stop paying "your" soldiers.
|
| Laying off soldiers and officers have been quite common in
| democracies. It is not really a problem. I guess it is
| mainly a problem if there is social unrest to begin with
| and the layoffs are a spark and maybe not done in an
| orderly manor.
| apapapa wrote:
| No.
| 6510 wrote:
| It seems an interesting idea in a weird way.
|
| Maybe redirect everything to the list of election programs.
|
| I would first get mad then read them.
| caseysoftware wrote:
| More specifically, shouldn't this be "Pakistan cuts off phone and
| internet services _for civilians_ on election day "?
|
| I assume law enforcement, the military, and government officials
| are free to communicate and coordinate today.
| abdullahkhalids wrote:
| There were reports throughout the day, that Polling station
| officials who were having difficulties, had no way of
| contacting the Election Commission or other important
| government offices, because of this ban.
| PrimeMcFly wrote:
| This is pretty indefensible and indicates the results of this
| 'election' are likely fixed.
| throwaway2203 wrote:
| It is known that they are, given the main opposition party's
| leader is jailed and they're not allowed to campaign.
| vundercind wrote:
| Why does it indicate that?
|
| Every election in every country took place without Internet or
| (meaningful amounts of) cell phone service _not that long ago_.
| PrimeMcFly wrote:
| Because in modern day the only reason to take that action is
| to manipulate votes.
| stainablesteel wrote:
| i'm trying to understand how or why you would manipulate
| votes like this
|
| call me crazy but i think mass-scale communication is a
| better way to manipulate votes, it allows people far away
| from each other to coordinate their numbers
|
| but if you cut off their coordination mechanism they can't
| exchange information, and perhaps they might fear pushing
| out fake numbers in case the numbers of them plus a few
| others look strange. the best defense would be honesty
| PrimeMcFly wrote:
| If people are going to vote a certain way out of fear or
| due to having been misled, cutting off communication is a
| safeguard against those people caning their minds or
| being convinced by facts. Just for one example.
| stainablesteel wrote:
| i guess if they're making up their mind at the last
| minute
| PrimeMcFly wrote:
| Looking at least at the US elections, I think there are
| plenty of people that do. Look at the whole Hillary's
| e-mails thing for example.
| jstarfish wrote:
| You don't need access to a phone to vote for whoever you
| were going to vote for anyway.
|
| If you're making your choice based on breaking news on
| election day, _you 're_ the one being manipulated.
| mtmail wrote:
| 2018 Algeria shut down internet during school exam season.
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/21/algeria-shuts-...
|
| "Algeria is not, however, the only country to take such radical
| steps during exam season: Syria, Iraq, Mauritania, Uzbekistan and
| several Indian states reportedly block access to the internet.
| Ethiopia shuts down social media."
| lacy_tinpot wrote:
| How do you study then?
| vorticalbox wrote:
| with a book? Or notes from class? Asking someone educated on
| the topic?
| srameshc wrote:
| Text books are still used in many parts of the world and all
| the course material are covered by those prescribed text
| books.
| jessriedel wrote:
| At least in Algeria, they only did it during 2-3 hours of the
| day when the tests were taken.
|
| > It published a timetable of the shutdown schedule: three
| one-hour blackouts, coinciding with the first hour of each
| baccalaureate exam, on Wednesday, and two each on Thursday,
| Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday.
| 1270018080 wrote:
| How to study during an exam? I think you'd be taking it, not
| studying.
| rangerelf wrote:
| You're not serious, are you? Books? Notebooks? Even
| downloading to your reading device? Screenshots if everything
| else fails?
| Off wrote:
| Algerian here, they do it almost every year when the Bac exams
| starts.
| andrewinardeer wrote:
| South Korea shuts down air travel during the nation wide
| university entrance examination.
| devoutsalsa wrote:
| I was curious, so I googled...
|
| - "The government grounds aircraft or reroutes flights to
| keep students from getting distracted during the biggest test
| of their lives."
|
| - " On the streets Thursday morning, you could hear more
| sirens than usual, because anyone running late to the
| competitive exam can call for a free police escort to rush
| them straight to the test site."
|
| - "Success is defined narrowly. Get a high score on the
| Suneung to get into a high-ranked school. Go to a good school
| to get hired at a South Korean chaebol -- the term for a
| mighty mega-conglomerate, like Samsung. They power the Korean
| economy."
|
| Source: https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/11/12/455
| 708201/...
| ken47 wrote:
| This test seems to control your trajectory in Korean
| society to a _very_ high degree, which seems like overkill
| in my view, because a test can only be so reflective of
| real-life skills. I have a family member who did very well
| on the test and got into Seoul National University, which
| is reputed to be the best university in Korea. According to
| them, their IQ is "only" 120-130, but they have _very_
| good memory, and are able to study endlessly without
| tiring. Are those useful skills? Yes, for many things, but
| not for everything.
| jdewerd wrote:
| Standardized testing does not aim to be a perfect
| evaluation, it aims to be a good enough evaluation that
| can be made highly resistant to corruption/bribery
| relative to its qualitative alternatives.
| standardUser wrote:
| They could divide it into 5-10 different test,
| administered over the course of several years. Anything
| but what they are doing now, which sounds like it was
| custom designed to encourage drug abuse and suicide.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| Can you write out the detailed arguments as to how that
| would be a net benefit?
| sebzim4500 wrote:
| For a start, you don't permanently mess up your life if
| you are sick/distracted by personal issues for that one
| exam.
| arccy wrote:
| now your stress is over several years, and if you fail an
| early one, what motivation do you have to keep on going?
|
| plus as children / young adults, many are still
| developing so you want to push testing as late as
| possible
| ken47 wrote:
| The stress is distributed over time, so lower peak
| stress, and for those who are not cut out for this, they
| will find out much more quickly, which minimizes their
| time wasted studying. They could invest their times
| instead into a trade school etc., which will be of
| greater benefit to society.
| standardUser wrote:
| Is it pass/fail? I figure if you fuck up on one test then
| you have several others to look forward to and improve.
| And each individual test could be more focused, so easier
| to study for. Just have a test at the end of every year
| from ~13-18 instead of one ultra-test that makes or
| breaks your entire existence. Sounds dystopian. And also
| completely detached form how reality works. Unless you're
| in the Olympics, no one cares how you perform _once_.
| They care about how you perform and will perform over
| months and years.
| petre wrote:
| Drug abuse is rare and severely punished. You go to
| prison if you're Korean, you did drugs recently and got
| caught in Korea. It doesn't matter if you've smoked pot
| overseas, flew back to Korea, got tested and the drug
| test came out positive. They'll still throw you in
| prison.
| klassik wrote:
| When do they test you?
| hexagonwin wrote:
| It's mostly illegal to purchase in the first place iirc.
| standardUser wrote:
| I highly doubt the resourceful youth of Korea have not
| discovered _several_ ways to find and abuse stimulants to
| help them study.
|
| Just curious, what is the average prison sentence in
| Korea for a 16-year old found guilty of buying Adderall
| online?
| klassik wrote:
| 100% agree There's a simple statistical argument behind
| it: the variance drops as you increase the number of
| tests.
|
| Let's say your true ability is A and you have one
| measurement M1. The variance (or, let's put it in another
| way: the probability that your M1 is waaaay different
| from your A) goes down if you also get M2, M3, M4 and
| take an average.
|
| In other words: your measurements become more precise and
| the stress goes down a lot
| standardUser wrote:
| One could say that grades are an even better metric! They
| measure all manner of academic topics over many years and
| across many different instructors.
| lancesells wrote:
| Happiness index for Korea is 6 Happiness index for US is
| 6.9
|
| Suicide rate in Korea is 21.2 per 100k Suicide rate in US
| is 14.5 per 100k
|
| Drug death rate in Korea is 0.16 per 100k Drug death rate
| in US is 18.83 per 100k
|
| And I only did the US and Korea because I only know the
| US. My conclusion is South Koreans feel about the same as
| Americans but do way less drugs.
| ken47 wrote:
| This is not a criticism on standardized testing per se.
| But the methodology could use a serious upgrade in the
| 21st century.
| standardUser wrote:
| Any test that is so big that it requires shutting down
| large sections of society is way, way too big. And I mean,
| WAY too big, like grotesquely so. Just imagining that level
| of stress stresses me out.
| apapapa wrote:
| It's still crazy but more reasonable to shut it down for exams
| than elections
| tmpz22 wrote:
| I wonder if exam season is just a convenient excuse to test
| the system in case it needs to be deployed for civic unrest.
| snihalani wrote:
| I bet some researcher will create a paper on productivity
| increase due to internet cut off days
| molsongolden wrote:
| This is not uncommon across the border in the Indian territory of
| Jammu and Kashmir. Some years have seen dozens of connectivity
| blackouts with the stated goals of maintaining peace and order or
| disrupting terrorism.
| boeingUH60 wrote:
| Pakistan is a sad tale. A country of 200 million+ with almost no
| future.
|
| The elites are busy milking what's left of the country before it
| flames out. The idiotic IMF continues giving them loans to
| support the extremely corrupt system..the US government also
| supports the extremely corrupt military.
|
| This is what happens when corruption is built into the culture of
| your society and religious/tribal hullabaloo is more prioritized
| than economic and social development.
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| Just wait until the elites figure out they can also milk China
| for port access that doesn't require transiting the south china
| sea?
| jldugger wrote:
| There's just the small matter of the Himilayas dividing
| mainland China from Pakistani ports.
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| If you wanted to build a cargo connection, the Himalayas
| would be a problem.
|
| If you only want to siphon off construction funds, the
| Himalayas provide an excellent excuse for any lack of
| progress.
| yumraj wrote:
| > A country of 200 million+ with almost no future.
|
| It has great future, as China's vassal state.
| seatac76 wrote:
| The issue is foundational cannot be changed.
|
| From Abottabad to Worse
| https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2011/07/osama-bin-laden-2011...
| abdullahkhalids wrote:
| Corruption is a symptom of Pakistan's deeper systematic
| problems, not the cause. Whole books have been written about
| this. Unless you define corruption = anything bad that someone
| with power does.
|
| It's also apparent that whenever democratic forces have been
| allowed to fix public systems in some small amount, corruption
| has gone down, or the system has become much more pleasant and
| efficient for the public to use.
| dang wrote:
| Please don't take HN threads on generic flamewar tangents--and
| especially not nationalistic ones, regardless of which country
| you have a problem with.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
|
| Edit: you've been breaking the site guidelines so often that
| I've banned the account. Please see
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39307588.
| H8crilA wrote:
| The craziest thing is that Pakistan has nuclear weapons. And not
| only that, the weapons are at the disposal of the local (very
| high ranking) commanders. It also is a country where the military
| is really in charge, only occasionally giving back the control to
| a civilian government.
|
| Sometimes people think that Eastern Europe is the most likely
| place to get nuked, or perhaps some American carrier off the
| coast of China. But in reality it's both Pakistan and India.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _in reality it 's both Pakistan and India_
|
| Pakistan's top brass is anti-India. They're also somewhat
| rational. If Pakistan's nukes are launched, it's because the
| zealots took control. At that point, I'm betting on Israel or
| even one of the Arab monarchies (if not Islamabad itself) [1].
|
| [1]
| https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Sh...
| rm_-rf_slash wrote:
| >They're also somewhat rational
|
| It only takes one generation to forget everything.
| alephnerd wrote:
| > Pakistan's top brass is anti-India
|
| The top brass tried to negotiate a normalization of relations
| with India in 2019 at the behest of the UAE and Saudi.
|
| It was supposed to be a legacy making policy of the former
| Chief of Army Staff Bajwa [0] but was scuttled by Imran Khan
| [1]
|
| There is a bit of Qatar+Turkiye versus Saudi+UAE intrigue in
| this as well, as Imran Khan leaned pro-Qatar and helped them
| bypass the Saudi+UAE lead blockade on Qatar [2], which was a
| no-no for Saudi and the UAE.
|
| Imran Khan had a decent domestic policy, but his foreign
| policy was basically pissing everyone off - from Saudi to UAE
| to India to the USA - and was what lead to his demise.
|
| [0] - https://tribune.com.pk/story/2417903/gen-bajwas-india-
| peace-...
|
| [1] - https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-
| atlanticist/imran-...
|
| [2] - https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/middle-
| east/2018-06-...
| renewiltord wrote:
| Well, one of those two countries has a no-first-use nuclear
| doctrine, so I imagine there's a probability conditional there.
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| TIL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_first_use#Countries_aga
| inst...
| RetpolineDrama wrote:
| Russia has a lot of unacknowledged "lost" soviet-era nukes
| that are actually still in its control.
|
| I could see them detonating one in India/Pakistan as a false
| flag to try and kick off a broader exchange to distract the
| West from Ukraine.
| seatac76 wrote:
| What an insane conspiracy. They already invaded Ukraine
| what more distraction could they need.
| vbezhenar wrote:
| Doctrine is just a paper. It's not even constitution. It
| could be changed in a minute if necessary (or even post-
| factum or some sketchy justifications could be made up).
|
| It surprises me sometimes, how much value people put in some
| documents, disregarding those who can change or ignore those
| documents.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Everything is just paper or words. The constitution? Words.
| Only power is power. Only shackles constrain. Even computer
| code is just code. But in my experience, documents count
| for something because of the result of violating the
| documents. If your experience is that nothing you've said
| or written holds water, then so be it. We will see, in
| time, whose approach leads whom to a better life.
| jcranmer wrote:
| Credibility matters. One of the important aspects of having
| nuclear weapons is laying out the conditions in which you
| expect to use them, and a lot of international relations
| theory, especially in the military sphere, is about trying
| to analyze how you would expect states to respond to
| different situations.
|
| I don't think anyone seriously expects a nuclear state
| threatened with imminent destruction to forgo use of
| nuclear weapons (even in the presence of a non-first use
| statement). The question is how close to that condition
| does a state have to be in before it decides to use nuclear
| weapons. For the states with explicit non-first use
| policies, the expectation is that it is very close indeed.
| By contrast, Pakistan has effectively an explicit first use
| policy: it will resort to nuclear weapons very early in a
| war. The US has a particularly mealy-mouthed policy, saying
| that it will only use nuclear weapons against nuclear
| states, but heavy vacillation on the threshold of their use
| in such conflicts. All of the other nuclear states
| basically state that their nuclear weapons are solely a
| defensive measure.
| zaphirplane wrote:
| Would the country with a no first use happen to be the
| country with a prime minister and governors that encourage
| killing of their own country men with a different religion.
| Color me skeptical
| alephnerd wrote:
| > one of those two countries has a no-first-use nuclear
| doctrine
|
| They're thinking about doing away with it in India due to the
| China factor (though politicians will always say it's because
| of Pakistan) [0][1].
|
| It's kind of scary tbh. China expands it's arsenal to compete
| with the US. India gets scared and starts expanding it's
| arsenal in turn. Pakistan gets scared and they start
| expanding their arsenal as well. And this has caused all 3
| countries to enter an arms race that is not going to slowdown
| anytime soon.
|
| It's already having a destabilizing effect in Myanmar,
| Bangladesh, Maldives, Nepal, Afghanistan, Eastern Africa, etc
|
| [0] - https://www.orfonline.org/research/nuclear-rethink-a-
| change-...
|
| [1] - https://www.livemint.com/news/india/india-s-no-first-
| use-nuc...
| cedws wrote:
| This stuff is what keeps me awake at night.
|
| "No rational person would use nuclear weapons first" Well,
| who's to say that the people in charge of the nukes are
| rational? All it takes is one madman and we could have one of
| the biggest disasters in human history. We tend to
| underestimate the likelihood of such disasters and don't
| prepare for them (COVID is one example.) One day, someone
| _will_ fire a nuclear weapon at civilians and we just have to
| hope it isn 't in our lifetime.
|
| Nuke-wielding dictatorships are the scariest because they can
| eliminate the checks and balances in the way of a launch. If
| Putin falls ill tomorrow and thinks the Americans poisoned him,
| what's to say he won't nuke them as final revenge? What about
| Kim Jong Un? What about Xi Jinping?
| alephnerd wrote:
| > But in reality it's both Pakistan and India
|
| If you want to stay up at night - India, Pakistan, and China
| basically had a Cuban Missle Crisis level event in 2019-2020.
|
| India and Pakistan almost went to war in 2019 after the Pulwama
| attack [0] and then India and China were a trigger away from
| starting a war over the Galwan river [1].
|
| [0] - https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/1/25/india-pakistan-
| came...
|
| [1] - https://theprint.in/defence/nearing-breaking-point-gen-
| narav...
| 2devnull wrote:
| How else to prevent misinformation?
| foragerdev wrote:
| I read the comments you guys probably have no idea what is going
| on in here. Let's talk about it from the start. It's 2021 and
| Imran Khan is the PM of Pakistan and US is leaving Afghanistan.
| Now US would certainly want to have their military airbases in
| Pakistan to keep an eye on Taliban government, they made an
| undercover request which was denied by Imran Khan on a Tv
| interview[1]. Which really unpleased the Biden Government. And
| then they started to hatch a plan to oust him. It finally started
| to happen in the start of 2022. The plan was to remove him
| through vote of no confidence. But Imran Khan found out, a US
| official formally asked to Pakistan Ambassador for removing him
| as PM through VONC, otherwise Pakistan will face consequences.
| Which happened in the most dramatic way by buying the members of
| Imran Khans party. You will be surprised to know that Pakistan
| Army was on paper with US. And that cipher was actually for Qamar
| Jawad Bajwa the Army chief of Pakistan forces. Well he was
| ousted.
|
| He was ousted but not defeated. The day he was removed masses
| protested on the streets of Pakistan. He just wanted them to hold
| elections so that people can get to choose. For that he resolved
| his 2 provincial assemblies. In the mean while he survived 2
| assassination attempts one time narrowly escaped the gun shots
| and second time planned killing by a moob.
|
| According to Pakistani law after the dissolving assemblies
| Election commission has to hold elections within 90 days which
| did not happen until 2 years. And in 2023 August National
| Assemblies also completed its tenure. Which supposed to get
| members within 90 days. Which did not happen as well. Again
| abrogation of law.
|
| During this time, as Imran Khan party named PTI (Pakistan Tehreek
| e Insaf) was popular. They tried to break his party through false
| flag operations against him accusing him for the master planner
| of attach on a military houses(termed 9th May) by his supporters
| who were protesting against his illegal arrest from the courtyard
| of High Court Islamabad. Hence they dismantled his party in a the
| most funny way possible. They will hostage someone and ask him to
| do press conference and confess that Imran Khan is the planner
| for 9th May. Thousand of supporters including women and party
| members was arrested and lots disappeared.
|
| And then the announced the elections on 8th Feb. But they
| sentenced him for 24 years in different cases and dissolved their
| marriage accusing him for marrying his current wife before his
| period is done and sentenced 7 years both him and his wife. And
| Pakistan Supreme court took his party official sign for voters
| and declared each of his candidates contesting as independent.
|
| So today was 8th February and election day, to prevent his voters
| from voting they turned of Mobile service which is still of at
| the time of writing and you will be surprised to know his party
| won with simple majority and election results are still awaiting.
|
| You may get an Idea what is happening in here. And you will be
| surprised to know this 21st century regime change operation is
| going in Pakistan with the help of Pakistan Army by USA. And
| since then whenever us official were asked about Pakistan they
| replied this is according to the Laws of Pakistan. But they do
| not reply the same for Iran or Venezuela.
|
| We want people to raise the voice of Pakistanis.
|
| [1]: https://www.dawn.com/news/1630278
| et-al wrote:
| Pakistan's neighbor, India, has also been shutting off the
| internet quite a bit. 84 times in 2022:
|
| - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/25/a-tool-of-poli...
|
| And Punjab had its internet severely restricted last March:
|
| - https://www.wired.com/story/india-activist-manhunt-sikh-acti...
|
| - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/21/punjab-interne...
|
| (I post this as someone who loves the subcontinent.)
| arjunaanand wrote:
| Read the article and comment is misleading.
|
| It happened in very very few cities and for times when riots
| were being incited.
|
| On other hand, Pakistan is all country internet washout and
| that multiple days in same week. Number is more than 100 in 365
| days.
| notpushkin wrote:
| > It happened in very very few cities and for times when
| riots were being incited.
|
| I mean, it's still bad. Not as bad as Pakistan, but still.
| ivanjermakov wrote:
| Seems like a normal practice for dictatorship-like countries.
| Happened too in Belarus in 2020:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%932021_Belarusian_p...
| euroderf wrote:
| Back in the days before teh interwebz were invented...
|
| What if the gov't could shut off political advertising on TV for
| (say) 48 hours before any national election ? Candidates fall
| back on print(ed) media and radio. This would cut off many
| problems (imho).
|
| Opportunity missed. And, too late now.
| alephnerd wrote:
| > Candidates fall back on print(ed) media and radio
|
| Back in the day before the interwebz the army would just jail
| those in the media who didn't toe the line, and curtail access
| of the printed word.
|
| The internet offered a way to disseminate information
| independent of other more controlled ways.
| chrisjj wrote:
| > Pakistan has temporarily suspended mobile phone network
|
| And not the fixed one?
| muststopmyths wrote:
| The intent isn't to block voice calls, but (probably) spreading
| of misinformation via social networks and group chat apps.
|
| Where the definition of "misinformation" is up to the
| government.
| chrisjj wrote:
| > The intent isn't to block voice calls
|
| Then I wonder why they are blocking voice calls.
| FredPret wrote:
| It'd be so cool if all our phones & laptops could have globally-
| unique addresses and talk to one another directly in a big global
| mesh.
|
| You'd still need cables and satellites to deal with rural areas
| and to cross oceans, but you couldn't really switch that off.
|
| Free speech would go through the roof!
| chupchap wrote:
| Globally-unique addresses are also easier to censor
| FredPret wrote:
| If devices talk directly to one another there's very little a
| central authority could do to censor communication
| NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
| It might be true that devices could connect across the US-
| Canadian border, but most borders are dead spots.
|
| I suspect that, when territory was being scammed, stolen,
| claimed, fought over, whatever... borders tend to develop
| in those places where there isn't a big population. And
| those borders have tended to remain empty. There will be
| exceptions, but not enough to matter.
|
| Short of science fiction devices, I dunno wormholes or
| split-particle pairs or whatever, I don't think this is
| viable.
| FredPret wrote:
| True, most connections would be within individual cities,
| so you would definitely need it to hook servers and
| satellites into the mesh so you can cross dead zones. But
| that would already be a huge win for humanity.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| There's still plenty a central authority could do, for
| example (1) banning mesh equipment altogether or (2)
| requiring that nodes in the mesh implement the government
| blacklist (and they could run nodes in the mesh to audit
| compliance). Pretty sure you need something more than mesh
| networking to make this work--you need an anonymous routing
| protocol so nodes in the middle don't know the address of
| the origin or destination nodes.
| amelius wrote:
| Well if you look at the US it's not like anyone can honestly say
| that the internet has had a very positive impact on the
| democratic process ...
| Imnimo wrote:
| I don't understand what the government's story is here. How
| exactly does shutting down cell service "combat possible
| threats"?
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