[HN Gopher] Prosthetic limbs need not look like real ones
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Prosthetic limbs need not look like real ones
Author : sohkamyung
Score : 38 points
Date : 2024-02-06 14:02 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.economist.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.economist.com)
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| compare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krukenberg_procedure
| metadat wrote:
| https://archive.today/Xy6ax
| throwup238 wrote:
| I can't wait for teledildonic prosthetics. That tentacle in the
| photo looks like a good start!
|
| Calling u/qdot76367
| rompic wrote:
| i remember talking to a former colleague who wrote a game to let
| people train to control their prosthetic arm at home. I asked him
| what the most wished for feature / most asked question for this
| prosthetic arm was and he told me that the most asked for
| question was if (mostly female) users could put nail polish on
| its "nails".
|
| Anecdata, but I assume most users just want to have a life-like
| replacement.
| hinkley wrote:
| Pockets are power.
|
| If I have an artificial limb, I'd like to have more storage
| space. Human bodies try to keep crevices to a minimum since
| they are points of attack by pathogens and parasites. An
| artificial limb doesn't have to survive to see my grandkids.
|
| There's also no reason a prosthetic limb has to constrain
| itself to human standard dimensions. Oh I'm sure for propriety
| and interpersonal dynamics they need a default mode that looks
| quite similar, but an arm could telescope to give you a few
| extra inches of reach.
|
| And I've already seen science fiction where a prosthetic hand
| has nine, ten fingers instead of 5, to facilitate human
| computer interaction. Though one does wonder, if the brain is
| capable of controlling a machine hand with higher numbers of
| digits, can we not skip over the two middle steps in brain-
| computer-input-computer translation and simply imagine you're
| typing on a 150 key keyboard that isn't really there? Or at
| least switch to a virtual hand that the computer uses to
| intercept the motor commands to the physical hand.
| crooked-v wrote:
| > can we not skip over the two middle steps in brain-
| computer-input-computer translation
|
| Well, if we're talking Ghost in the Shell (the most iconic
| case of robot-hand super-typing I can think of), having that
| disconnect is entirely on purpose, to airgap the operators'
| brains (enhanced, but self-contained) from any external
| connections.
| hinkley wrote:
| I've seen it elsewhere but it's also possible those other
| cases were an homage to GitS.
|
| I think there's still an airgap if the human brain is not
| feeding to or reading directly from the external computer.
| To be clear, we are both treating the prosthetic as 'me' in
| this exercise, and the system we are communicating with as
| Other, which we cannot implicitly trust.
|
| The brain-hand interface could act as an input device, then
| you can still use your motor cortex to tell the hand to
| type a SHIFT-a, and the interface interprets it directly as
| an A instead of the movement for A. You can airgap an
| output device and still use it. There are some precedents
| for that in avionics I'm told, which are the moral
| equivalent of optical isolators meant to keep power spikes
| from frying the more delicate parts of an electrical
| circuit.
|
| Which I agree is a hell of a lot safer than directly
| telling your brain you see a virtual terminal, and that now
| is a good time to have a seizure.
| LtWorf wrote:
| You want to keep heavy stuff close to the centre of mass.
| Heavy stuff flailing around isn't that good to keep balance
| and do precise movements.
| hinkley wrote:
| My arm is full of oxygen delivery and self-repair
| equipment. It also contains several parts of my immune
| system.
|
| A prosthetic arm within my lifetime will likely be lighter
| than my real one. Carrying around a flashlight or a multi
| tool embedded in a void in it wouldn't be that weird, and
| wouldn't upset your balance.
|
| Those running legs are already much lighter, but they don't
| fulfill the full range of features provided by a lower leg.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| Interestingly the one amputee I know well enough to speak about
| this with is quite aggrieved by prosthetic design decisions
| being made based on what someone assumes amputees need or want.
| The final fitting and tuning is very custom but the functional
| tradeoffs of the device are decided well before that, seemingly
| without much collaboration with the people who will ultimately
| use them.
| mkoubaa wrote:
| If I had fake feet I wouldn't mind if they could hover
| DonHopkins wrote:
| Both feet firmly planted in mid air.
| WorkerBee28474 wrote:
| Related: A 2009 TED Talk called "My 12 pairs of legs"
|
| https://www.ted.com/talks/aimee_mullins_my_12_pairs_of_legs
| bluGill wrote:
| While they need not, you will often want that. Humans will
| naturally shy away from someone who doesn't look 'normal' (a term
| I didn't define). I often catch myself doing this even though all
| evidence says the other person is fine despite missing limbs.
| paulpauper wrote:
| hmm there is the uncanny valley phenomenon
| danielvaughn wrote:
| Yeah I've seen some artificial limbs that have a cyborg-ish
| look to them. I'm aware that not everyone will want to go for
| something like that, but at least it doesn't give off the
| uncanny valley vibe.
| standardUser wrote:
| Sort of. We certainly seem to have adapted rather rapidly to an
| ever-increasing variety of hairstyles, clothes, tattoos,
| piercings and accessories. We'd probably all "shy away" from
| the average goth or punk rock kid if it was 1940. But who still
| scoffs at those extreme looks these days when they serve you
| coffee or stop you on the street for directions?
| satvikpendem wrote:
| > _But who still scoffs at those extreme looks these days
| when they serve you coffee or stop you on the street for
| directions?_
|
| Lots of people, depending on how extreme.
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| Depends on where you live and which people you will be hanging
| out with that day (you can have multiple limbs - see this talk
| where Aimee Mullins shows off her 12 pairs of legs and
| discusses the context for each [1]. Limbs for Olympic running
| already don't look "normal.")
|
| I'm queer and trans and I live in Oakland and I hang out with
| almost all queer anarchist people. You can bet I'd wear a
| tentacle from time to time and they'd all think it's rad as
| hell. I'm a robotics engineer and I tend to like to be a bit
| loud at times and go against the grain. If I lost a hand or an
| arm I'd almost certainly build myself a fire shooting tentacle.
| (I could do this now but motivation goes up if I've lost a limb
| and I've begun working on replacements.)
|
| I learned long ago that trying to appease the normative views
| of others simply isn't going to work for me, so I trained away
| the part of my brain that worries what other people think as
| long as I'm not actively harming others. In doing so I've found
| a lot of people that appreciate this, and I've learned the
| value in leaning into it and building community with the
| weirdos.
|
| If I'm going to my normie friend's wedding I might bring a
| normal prosthetic and keep the fire shooting tentacle in the
| car for all the nerds that want to see it after the ceremony.
|
| [1] https://youtu.be/JQ0iMulicgg?si=kPDy_VcRtJbQPuCb
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| Also the attitude matters a lot. If it comes from creativity,
| joy, fun, etc., it will work way better than if it comes with
| distanciation, opposition and awkwardness.
|
| Context is important, but what you bring as well.
|
| I have friends that can make a new pair of glasses uneasy,
| and some that can rock devils horns on a tuesday.
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| Yeah. I certainly understand that losing a limb is a big
| deal emotionally and many will not want to stand out.
| However as someone who has been interested in robotics
| since I was 11 years old my plan has always been that if I
| lose a limb I will build my own replacement. That gives me
| a lot of clarity on how I would proceed after the initial
| grieving and acceptance period.
| maxglute wrote:
| Sentiment probably shifting with cyberpunk media. If I see cool
| prosthetics I probably couldn't resist to stare, which is also
| annoying I imagine.
| ben7799 wrote:
| Our limbs evolved to be efficient for life on earth.
|
| Then we built all this artificial stuff and designed it to be
| as optimal as possible for human hands.
|
| So intentionally making prosthetics really different from the
| human norm might make things less convenient for the wearer.
| thfuran wrote:
| That's something only someone who has never played N64 could
| say.
| hinkley wrote:
| One of the examples is an extra thumb. That prosthetic is
| clearly meant to be available for able-armed people.
|
| This is very hypothetical, but if a prosthetic becomes a tool
| rather than a replacement for organics, then it's possible
| that products will change to be compatible with the tool.
|
| Coffee cups probably won't change, but power tools might, if
| there's something about having an extra thumb that makes them
| easier to operate. My cordless drills can go from forward to
| reverse by moving my thumb twice, but other transitions
| require more repositioning of the hands. You could move the
| torque controller to be reached by the extra thumb, for
| instance, reducing the steps to countersink a wood screw.
| s0rce wrote:
| Similarly, this issue occurs with your eyes. When you wear a
| vision pro you can see flicker issues with tons of displays
| that were designed to be visible by people and not machines.
| pixl97 wrote:
| >Our limbs evolved to be efficient for life on earth.
|
| Eh, then why don't most other mammals have digital hands
| (having 10 fingers that is) like humans?
|
| It may be better to say that human society and products are
| developed around us fingers, but there may very well be
| specialist jobs that allow prosthetics to be more efficient.
| jdietrich wrote:
| Until recently, hearing aids were almost exclusively available
| in "skin tone" colours that didn't particularly match anyone's
| skin. Now all of the major manufacturers offer hearing aids in
| a range of consumer electronic-like metallic and gloss colours;
| this is especially true for hearing aids for children. There's
| a major generational shift, driven partly by changing social
| attitudes to disability but also because people are just much
| more used to seeing people with electronic things in their
| ears. A new generation of hearing aid users see their hearing
| aids as a gadget rather than a medical device; the choice to
| wear a "discreet" hearing aid is increasingly seen as a symptom
| of internalised stigma.
|
| The same thing is happening with prosthetic limbs, driven to a
| very large extent by parasports. We're increasingly used to
| seeing prosthetic limbs that were designed purely for
| performance, where form follows function. Prosthetists used to
| assume that everyone would want the most "normal-looking"
| prosthetic limb, but that's no longer a safe assumption; to
| many younger people with missing limbs, the thought of wearing
| a prosthetic designed to mimic a natural limb is actively
| repellent. They're much more comfortable wearing something made
| of raw carbon fibre than something covered in beige rubber.
| szundi wrote:
| And the world of Cyberpunk and Shadowrun has officially
| started now.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| if the "normal looking" thing doesn't look very good there's
| not much point bothering.
|
| this is like how it took a few decades for us to get "nude"
| undergarments matching certain skin pigments in the United
| States.
| hinkley wrote:
| The subject of this article has a woman with a tentacle arm
| front and center. Some of the others are more human+ or human-
| adjacent. An extra thumb will get looks and be a conversation
| piece.
|
| The tentacle is a little too deep into the uncanny valley.
| s0rce wrote:
| seems like a limb trying to look human but ending up creepy
| is in the uncanny valley. A non-human tentacle limb is simply
| that, its not mimicking human like characteristics in a
| slightly off way.
| nickdothutton wrote:
| If a prosthetic's appearance is at best something in the uncanny
| valley, I think if I ever needed one then I'd prefer a design
| from Philippe Starck or Richard Rogers, or perhaps Jony Ive.
| deadbabe wrote:
| How do amputees feel about this?
| LtWorf wrote:
| Amputee here.
|
| I see a lot of uninformed comments and completely idiotic ideas
| in this comment section, from people who are thinking they are
| very smart for coming up with things. Well nobody does it
| probably for a reason.
|
| First of all prosthetics are expensive as fuck, so a normal
| person can't have 5 of them.
|
| Secondly they are big, so unless you go around in a van you
| can't really say "oh I need that other one now"... the one you
| have on you is all.
|
| Then the looks. They don't have to look realistic but many
| people will want them to. I've met a few people in wheelchair
| that have absolutely no use for a prosthetic and yet use one,
| because it pains them to see themselves without... so i can't
| imagine how a robocop leg would work for that issue. Also,
| padding and stuff has the function of protecting the important
| bits that are inside.
|
| I do agree that there is no point in making them look over
| realistic if the wearer isn't interested in doing that, and in
| trying to simulate a real limb at the cost of pain, and reduced
| time when they can be used.
|
| In the end what nobody realizes is that prosthetics are
| complete shit. Try typing on a keyboard or playing guitar for
| several hours with 50cm sticks tied to your fingers and see how
| that works out, both in efficacy and strain to your fingers. A
| prosthetic is more or less something like that. Please stop
| confusing sci-fi films with reality.
|
| It is rather annoying having people come up to you and ask:
| "why don't you have a 3 million dollar prosthetics that does
| this and that?"... Well I don't have 3 million dollars and the
| thing you're thinking of doesn't exist anyway.
| deadbabe wrote:
| Thank you for this perspective.
| xtracto wrote:
| I lost the distal phalanx of my thumb in my left hand when I
| was a kid (6 y old). I've lived my whole life without it and
| have had gone through the full "stages of grief" rainbow and
| obligatory bullying in school.
|
| Now I am 40 years old and _in general_ my feeling is the
| following:I would enjoy having a prostetic phalanx which is
| indistiguishable from the real deal mainly to avoid
| "distracting" people that I am interacting with. The reaction
| of most adults is basically to get "distracted" and wondering
| at some point. I've caught a lot of thease both in public
| moments (while giving a talk and gesticulating with my hands,
| you can see into some people's eyes when they "found out", and
| get distracted). And in private scenarios: I play guitar (more
| on this later), I've had moments where I am playing with along
| with somebody else, and you can clearly see when they "realize"
| about my missing finger. Adults are usually shy/educated and
| don't ask about it, but it is funny seeing that "moment of
| silence" when they are pondering whether they should ask and I
| guess they get "ashamed": "did he realized I stared" ... like,
| after 30+ years, I don't give a fuck haha.
|
| Now, on the other hand (pun intended), I've researched about
| prostethics. There are some really good prosthetics which are
| purely visual. I've never tried those (just haven't pushed
| myself I guess), but what I would _really_ like is a prosthetic
| that is more functional. As I mentioned, I play guitar, and one
| of the things that I am missing is the ability to play some
| Barre chords as well as I could, or doing shredding (I like to
| play metal) on some topmost strings, basically because I am
| missing the "support" that would be provided by the thumb-tip
| to apply the "force" (don't know if I am explaining myself
| haha). Also, I've always wanted to play the piano but also ...
| the remaining part of my thumb won't help with that haha.
|
| So, I guess in summary: for the public side I'd like the
| "transparent" prostethic, while for me, I'd love to have some
| prosthetic that would make it easier for me to play guitar
| haha. Or a laser pointer, or something cool... of course that
| may be the geek side of me talking.
|
| BTW: I caught your pun
| starkparker wrote:
| cf. Jason Barnes and his prosthesis designed for playing drums:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyHHxIYOs1g
| nimish wrote:
| Give me the Deus Ex or Cyberpunk 2020 look, honestly.
| w4rh4wk5 wrote:
| Maybe they "should", but really, when I lose an arm or a leg, I
| kinda want it to look like Ian Davis' mechanical hand prosthetic!
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VGgq1FjrCQ
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