[HN Gopher] Review: Framework's Laptop 16 is unique, laudable an...
___________________________________________________________________
Review: Framework's Laptop 16 is unique, laudable and flawed
Author : PaulHoule
Score : 90 points
Date : 2024-02-06 15:02 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (arstechnica.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (arstechnica.com)
| tmikaeld wrote:
| Just the fact that I can swap any part of this laptop, in cause
| they get old or worn out, is worth a premium price.
|
| If it's worth _this_ much of a premium price, I'm not so sure
| though.. It's quite rough - compared to Lenovo Legion Pro 5 Gen
| 8, it's 850$ extra, with lesser (GPU) performance.
| candiddevmike wrote:
| But you can only swap them out from one vendor (for now?). This
| just seems like a support contract with extra steps. It's also
| unclear how much cheaper this ends up being in the long run vs
| just buying a new laptop, AFAIK framework hasn't done a typical
| "refresh cycle" yet.
| Mashimo wrote:
| Even with a support contracts, I'm not aware of any vendor
| that lets you upgrade the GPU for you.
| asynchronous wrote:
| From what I understand Framework is hoping to basically open
| source the hardware schematics eventually for the ports and
| such
| jjice wrote:
| FWIW, the RAM and storage is completely standard and
| replaceable. Something that most laptops don't offer anymore
| unfortunately (plenty of decent ones still do though).
| sva_ wrote:
| It should be noted that there are other laptops where you can
| swap out most parts, e.g. the EliteBook is actually
| surprisingly good at this.
| nightski wrote:
| Would love to purchase a Framework, but 16 is way too large and
| 13 is way too small. A 14 or even 15 would be greatly
| appreciated. I love my 14" G14.
| frio wrote:
| The 13" is 3:2. Anecdotally, I feel like I have more screen
| real estate than my older 16:9 14".
| anonymous_sorry wrote:
| How is the 3:2 13" with vertical splits? This is my typical
| layout.
|
| I cancelled my Framework 16 order when I saw quite how big it
| was was even without the GPU. Would love to support Framework
| but like your parent comment I think something in the 14" to
| compact 15" range is my sweet spot.
| new23d wrote:
| +1 for 14"
| andrewmcwatters wrote:
| I really want Framework to succeed. I think right now their
| laptops are ugly, but they're acceptable and very thoughtfully
| designed!
|
| I'm only sad I don't have a need for a Windows or Linux laptop
| right now, otherwise I'd put my money where my mouth is
| immediately.
| brlewis wrote:
| I have a Framework 13 Chromebook. I find its aesthetic similar
| to macbooks.
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| The biggest flaw, but it's not their fault, is that there's a
| inexistent second hand market for Framework parts yet.
|
| Sure, the concept is nice to only upgrade certain parts like the
| motherboard, but who will buy your older motherboard? How many
| Framework users are out there right now, and also looking for an
| old 11-th Gen motherboard? Sure, you can turn it into a large
| ugly expensive NUC with an extra case, but I don't need another
| NUC and NUC type computers can be had for dirt cheap right now on
| Amazon.
|
| Meanwhile, if you want to upgrade your non-Framework laptop, you
| can just flip it on the used market much easier than just looking
| for buyers of stand alone framework parts as there's an order of
| magnitude lot more people out there who want to buy an entire
| used notebook instead of just parts.
|
| If Framework were already to magically have the market share of
| Apple, Dell, Lenovo, then the second hand market for their parts
| would be an amazing selling point, but currently they have the
| have this chicken and egg problem where you're buying into an
| expensive ecosystem that's still incredibly niche and lacking a
| user base.
|
| How can they overcome this? I dunno, but I hope they do.
| sva_ wrote:
| I'm also a bit doubtful about the utility of replacing the
| motherboard. When I buy a laptop, I'm aiming to get 5-10 years
| out of it, and the laptops case will at that point be pretty
| worn so that I'd want to replace it.
| anotherhue wrote:
| They'll sell you a new case too. Once you've swapped out all
| the parts you'll have a real nice upgrade.
|
| I have the 13 and it's almost perfect so take this in good
| humour.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| I'm hoping that my next laptop will be a Framework 16, and I
| expect/hope for it to be a Ship of Theseus.
|
| In the past when I've replaced laptops, it was usually
| because I wanted to update just one or two components.
| Retiring the entire laptop always felt so wasteful.
|
| So the piecemeal upgrade process to which Framework aspires
| would be perfect for me.
|
| (Also, being able to cheaply experiment with and replace
| component choices, e.g. keyboards, is a big selling point for
| me. My last laptop probably would have been from System76,
| but I really didn't like their choice of keycaps.)
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| _> Retiring the entire laptop always felt so wasteful._
|
| It's only wasteful if you throw it in the trash. If you
| sell it on the used market, someone else gets to use it for
| longer, and so on.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| It must really vary by person or environment; the only reason
| I'm not still daily driving my x200 ThinkPad from 2008 is
| that it's just too slow.
| nrp wrote:
| Part of what's driven the secondary market for Mainboards to
| date has been their use as single board computers with either
| the Cooler Master Case or in DIY projects like cyberdecks and
| gaming handhelds. That is, the existence of those projects
| doesn't only help Framework Laptop owners who may want to reuse
| their old Mainboard, but also creates demand in the market for
| people who don't want their old Mainboard to sell it to people
| who do.
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| _> Part of what's driven the secondary market for Mainboards
| to date has been their use as single board computers with
| either the Cooler Master Case or in DIY projects like
| cyberdecks and gaming handhelds._
|
| But how many customers/people actually do that? Is it a
| sizeable market to generate demand for these parts, or is it
| just a few tinkerers to post their DIY projects on reddit?
|
| Because price and commodity wise, turning a Framework
| motherboard into a cyberdeck, becomes a more ugly,
| impractical and more expensive version of the Steamdeck. Who
| would do that other than only a handful of
| enthusiasts/tinkerers?
| bogwog wrote:
| I actually was looking for a used framework motherboard because
| it seems like a fun project to use it as a mini server that
| could eventually become a laptop, but I couldn't find anybody
| selling them. I know they have a "marketplace" on their
| website, but that just looks like framework selling their own
| old/refurbished stock.
|
| It doesn't seem like there's actually a second hand market for
| these parts. Either people love them so much they don't want to
| resell them, or there just aren't that many people buying them
| in the first place?
|
| EDIT: ...OR I'm just looking in the wrong places!
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| _> I actually was looking for a used framework motherboard
| because it seems like a fun project to use it as a mini
| server that could eventually become a laptop_
|
| Sure, but the amount of people who want to do this is in the
| single digits as there's way better and cheaper alternative
| for such tinkering projects.
|
| Not exactly a sales and market share driving force.
| nrp wrote:
| Where we've seen a lot of usage of Framework Laptop
| Mainboards is in projects that need stronger performance
| than an RPi but either a thinner form factor than something
| like a NUC or the ability to be battery powered. That leads
| to projects like this:
| https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/02/rasti-computer-
| is-a-...
| nrp wrote:
| A resale market is on our roadmap, but in the meantime we've
| seen the secondary market popping up on our community forum,
| a subreddit, and our Discord. We definitely agree that it's
| beneficial to have an dedicated marketplace for this though,
| especially as the number of Framework Laptops and upgraded
| Mainboards continues to increase pretty substantially each
| year.
| erohead wrote:
| Maybe ask Swappa to open a section on their site? I think
| it's one of the best marketplace platforms these days.
| bogwog wrote:
| Personally, I don't think I'd trust an "official" second
| hand market. My go to's are usually eBay, Craigslist, and
| FB marketplace. If framework parts are only being traded on
| Discord servers and subreddits, it makes me think there
| just isn't that big of a market for those parts for
| whatever reason.
|
| I don't expect Thinkpad levels of availability, but I've
| only ever seen one listing for a Framework mainboard on
| eBay in all the times I've looked. But tbf, the internet is
| very strange nowadays, and maybe Discord is the new eBay?
|
| To be clear, I'm not trying to imply nobody is buying
| frameworks, just that nobody is reselling them. I upgraded
| my laptop not too long ago, but I already decided my next
| one will be a framework. So keep up the good work!
| mdorazio wrote:
| Are we talking about non-Apple laptops? Because the used market
| for those is abysmal. My 5 year old Asus is worth about the
| cost of shipping and a new battery.
| pmontra wrote:
| It depends on the laptop. My 10 years old HP ZBook 15 is
| still about 400 Euro on Ebay [1] My laptop has 32 GB and a 2
| TB SSD, so it should be a little more than the most expensive
| one. The cheapest one with no missing parts is 240 Euro,
| maybe too much to buy as a backup to cannibalize if something
| big fails. The very cheapest ones are from the USA but I
| would probably have to go pick them at customs somewhere
| unless eBay deals with that. No thanks.
|
| [1] https://www.ebay.it/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=hp+zbook+15
| +i7...
| neogodless wrote:
| Huh, my 4 year old Lenovo Legion gaming laptop is currently
| selling for $500-700 on eBay (based on "Sold" items, not list
| price). I paid $1030 for it.
| nfriedly wrote:
| It's small, but I wouldn't call it inexistent.
|
| Ebay shows lots of parts available right now, e.g.
| https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=framework+lap...
|
| And, if you switch to sold items, you can see that people are
| indeed buying used motherboards, speakers, keyboards, etc:
| https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=framework+lap...
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| _> It's small, but I wouldn't call it inexistent. _
|
| It's inexistent if you check ebay in the EU and probably
| other markets that are not the US.
|
| If I were in the US I'd consider the Framework, but as it
| stands, the used parts market and service center network in
| the EU is sooo much larger for the likes of Lenovo, HP and
| Dell that makes Framework a tough sell, especially that the
| former brands have models with much lower price points at
| similar specs, and since the EU has a lower purchasing power
| than the US, I doubt they'll explode in popularity here very
| soon.
| unethical_ban wrote:
| I think there are two issues with your analysis.
|
| First, the problem you describe is an expected one to have for
| a relatively new brand. And for a new, novel way of making old
| laptop components useful. While you may be right it's a problem
| to solve, I don't think it's existential.
|
| Which leads me to my second point. I think framework laptops
| are fairly high quality, regardless of whether I find myself
| upgrading the motherboard alone. I like the screen form factor,
| the easily replaceable battery, and the modular ports.
|
| And like others have said, the resale value of PC laptops is
| low. I have a stack of them at home because I never expect to
| get more than shipping for them, since technology moves so
| quickly in laptop space.
| pmontra wrote:
| I'm considering a Framework 16 as replacement for my laptop.
| Hopefully I can wait and see what happens to it and what
| they'll build next. I will definitely buy the no number pad
| version and I'd buy a touchpad with buttons if there was one
| available, from Framework or from a third party. There aren't
| any, only a few threads on their forum like this one [1]
|
| [1] https://community.frame.work/t/the-clickpad-and-the-
| sliding-...
| mminer237 wrote:
| Even if you couldn't resell used parts, I would hope buying a
| new motherboard would be cheaper than buying a whole new laptop
| less the amount you'd get for an old used one.
| johnobrien1010 wrote:
| I love the idea of the Framework Laptop 16 and an upgradeable
| GPU. My wife has a Framework 13 DIY edition and loves it.
|
| My problem with the Laptop 16 is the price; it is ~$2,100. At
| least as a gaming laptop, you can get an equivalent GPU in more
| traditional gaming laptop for less money (compare the Acer
| PH315-55-79KT w/ an RTX 3070 @~$1,800:
| https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia-RTX-3070-Laptop...).
|
| I'm not sure it makes sense to pay $300 more to be able to
| upgrade the GPU... In theory, maybe? If in three years, if you
| can get a 100% better GPU for the laptop for just $400 that would
| be a coup, but I don't know if that is what is going to happen.
| YoshiRulz wrote:
| My experience with jumping between laptop manufacturers has one
| constant thread: _the ports always break_. For that alone I
| think the "repairability premium" is worth paying (in fact I
| had a pre-order for an AMD Framework 13 before the 16 was
| announced), and to also have options for the keyboard and, at
| some point, GPU is just a bonus.
| anilakar wrote:
| An AMD GPU on a Laptop that will primarily be used to run Linux?
| Gonna be a hard pass.
|
| I have been using a T495 since spring 2020 and only after
| upgrading to Fedora 39 in December have I been able to run it
| without having to reboot at least once a day due to the amdgpu
| driver hanging up.
| anotherhue wrote:
| What's the underlying card?
|
| I've had excellent experience with amdgpu and the vega
| integrated graphics.
|
| There's a second driver amdgpu pro that might be worth a look
| though I've never used it.
| anilakar wrote:
| The CPU is a Ryzen 3700U so the accompanying GPU is RX Vega
| 10 as far as I can tell.
|
| FWIW, most of the issues happened with an alt mode display
| and/or USB-C dock plugged in. Very few issues when undocked,
| but as it is a work machine, it's not going to be used by
| itself too much. In any case, I've lost more productivity
| than the price difference to the equivalent Intel model
| laptop would have been.
| zilti wrote:
| I have a Framework 13 with AMD running Linux, with absolutely
| no issues at all. I reboot it once a week after installing
| updates.
| nrp wrote:
| That's not an issue we've seen with either the AMD-powered
| Framework Laptop 13 or 16. A large chunk of our user base are
| Linux users.
| belthesar wrote:
| Unsure if your thoughts come from recent experience, legacy
| experience, or a need to run CUDA-accelerated workloads, but if
| you're citing the old wisdom that AMD GPUs on Linux are a pain
| to deal with, I'm happy to tell you that your knowledge is a
| bit out of date. AMD's OSS drivers (with closed source firmware
| blobs, yes) are mainlined in pretty much every modern distro's
| package manager, and work surprisingly well. Mind you, I tend
| to not run Linux on laptops, so if there's some nuance you're
| aware of wrt sleep or something that I'm not, please feel free
| to share.
|
| I will say "Here There Be Dragons" wrt CUDA/OpenCL workloads
| however. You have to switch from Mesa to the AMD closed source
| drivers, and I did have some wonky issues, with, for example
| using things like Davinci Resolve with those drivers.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| Is it still the case that Wayland is better supported with AMD
| GPUs than with nVidia?
|
| IIRC, the last time I tried using Wayland, my nVidia GPU was
| the barrier.
| COGlory wrote:
| Not sure about that exact chip, but my experience with AMD GPUs
| has been fantastic on Linux.
| nfriedly wrote:
| FWIW, the proprietary nvidia linux drivers for the 2070 in my
| desktop PC are absolute trash. Last year they failed so bad
| that I couldn't even get it to boot and ended up just
| reinstalling ubuntu to fix the problem.
|
| On the other hand, my AMD Framework 13 hasn't had any issues
| with the iGPU with Linux. (It bluescreened and rebooted twice
| in two months with Windows, and I suspect both of those were
| graphics-related, but no issues in the month or so I've had
| ubuntu on it.)
| rjsw wrote:
| I'm typing this on a T495s, but running NetBSD. Thanks for the
| data point on the working amdgpu driver, I'm just using a dumb
| framebuffer driver right now.
| saltcured wrote:
| Recently, I got a P14s with the AMD Ryzen PRO 7840U. Its CPU
| and GPU are a different architecture than the Ryzen PRO 3700U
| in the my old T495.
|
| The P14s seems very fast and stable with Fedora 39. I tested
| OpenCL as well as Steam games and general desktop usage with
| Firefox.
|
| But to be honest, I didn't have as much trouble as you describe
| with my T495 either. I ran it exclusively with Fedora since
| right before the pandemic. My main problem was that I could not
| use OpenCL at all. But for desktop usage and even Steam games,
| it worked well enough.
|
| I'll admit I rarely use suspend/resume, so if your problems
| were related to that, it might explain my different experience.
| I've noticed the T495 is very slow to resume compared to most
| other machines I've used including the P14s and lots of Intel-
| based Thinkpads.
| jackconsidine wrote:
| I have a Framework and have probably procured 10-15 total for my
| company & a few clients. It's great that you can swap out any
| part of the laptop. That said, I broke my input cover [0] and
| tried to order a new one, but the listed part 404'ed. When I
| reached out to support they said there were none in stock and
| they didn't know when they'd be back in stock. So my Framework
| anecdote was that I found myself worse off than if I had a non-
| modular computer. When I checked 1.5 months later, the part was
| in stock.
|
| [0] https://frame.work/products/input-cover-kit
| nrp wrote:
| Thanks for the heads up. I'll follow up with our team on this,
| since that is certainly not the intended or desired experience.
| jackconsidine wrote:
| Thank you I'm happy to forward my correspondence to you
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| Is there a way to get notified when a part is back in stock?
| rrix2 wrote:
| A normal out of stock listing on the FW marketplace will
| include a form to take an email address and notify
| customers when parts come in to stock. They don't usually
| 404 like OP described
| m_0x wrote:
| > When I checked 1.5 months later, the part was in stock.
|
| So, are you good now? Or was the part in stock too late for you
| and moved on to another laptop?
| jackconsidine wrote:
| Yes I'm set now, at the time though it seemed like it might
| not come back in stock
| Throw73747 wrote:
| My main problems compared to old school enterprise modular Lenovo
| (IBM) and HP laptops:
|
| - The only module option is a graphic card. There is no option
| for extra battery, extra CD-ROM, no module with 4x NVME SSD... I
| could put three batteries into my old lenovo
|
| - it is build like a cheap plastic toy. It would not survive fall
| from table etc...
|
| - No hot swap, you have to shutdown the system, fiddle with
| screws for 20 minutes and reboot. My regular laptop with
| removable lid has similar level of modularity.
| nrp wrote:
| We've demoed a dual NVMe module already and have open sourced
| the design for third parties and the community to create their
| own modules. We've seen an Oculink module and an FPGA module in
| development (and this is before the first laptop shipped).
|
| The system is made of thixomolded magnesium and CNC aluminum
| and is tested to the same drop survival standards as most other
| high end 15-16" notebooks.
|
| The Verge timed their Graphics Module swap and did it in <3
| minutes.
| Throw73747 wrote:
| > tested to the same drop survival standards as most other
| high end 15-16" notebooks.
|
| My impression from my (very breef) test is that replaceable
| display frame is compromising display integrity. I also do
| not like how motherboard is accessed from top lid, rather
| then bottom lid. In many laptops (Sky Lake Dell XPS 13)
| keyboard is screwed together with motherboard, and is
| protecting motherboard a bit. Removable bottom lid provides
| crash zone, and bends independently from motherboard, on
| Framework it sends every stress directly into motherboard.
|
| Form factor of an "ultrabook" has been around for more than
| decade (Mac, XPS 13, Zenbooks..). People know tradeoffs and
| what to expect.
|
| This is a new form factor. If its rudged, perhaps provide
| some videos with crash tests.
| COGlory wrote:
| You have one and tested it? How did you accomplish that?
| Can you tell me about your test? How did you determine it's
| the replaceable lid is compromising integrity?
| Throw73747 wrote:
| No, I spend like 20 minutes on friends unit, deciding
| wherever to buy it as well. Now I am telling company
| founder my impressions.
|
| I did not determined anything with bottom lid. Perhaps
| they can answer motherboard is free floated, or crash
| zone is from sides, since it is in center.
| dymk wrote:
| No CD-ROM? Whatever shall we do.
| EverythingeeB wrote:
| Lmao that's what I was thinking when I saw that
| nfriedly wrote:
| There is potential for a extra battery module. It doesn't exist
| yet, but the connector supports power going from the expansion
| bay to the laptop[0], so someone could build a battery module
| or potentially even a hot-swappable adapter to use a removable
| battery made for a more common laptop.
|
| [0] See pins 41-51,63-64 on
| https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay/tree/main/...
| itdoesnotmatter wrote:
| I don't have the 16, I have the 13, but I've been impressed. [The
| slots would be cooler if they were hot swappable, but it's
| generally not been an issue.] - Holy shit I can hot swap. Ignore
| this. Other points stand ;)
|
| Build quality has been good, it survives being chucked in and out
| of my backpack and it's survived a drop off a bar stool to hard
| tile.
|
| I really hope they keep iterating and improving, there's
| certainly things that could be better, but they're on to
| something in my opinion.
| COGlory wrote:
| I hot swap the ports on my 13 all the time - what are you
| talking about?
| deaddodo wrote:
| > I don't have the 16, I have the 13, but I've been impressed.
| They slots would be cooler if they were hot swappable, but it's
| generally not been an issue.
|
| I thought all the slots were wired into the XCHI/Thunderbolt
| hub system, so they should be hot swappable, no? Or maybe my
| understanding of the system is incorrect.
| nrp wrote:
| The Expansion Cards are indeed hot swappable!
| itdoesnotmatter wrote:
| Hot damn they are.
| bengale wrote:
| I thought they were just big usbc dongles that slot into the
| device? Surprised that's not hot swappable.
| itdoesnotmatter wrote:
| They are hot swappable. I'm just a fool. Laptop just got
| cooler ;)
| chx wrote:
| Nice.
|
| Now this is out could we get a TrackPoint keyboard please?
| https://community.frame.work/t/thinkpad-keyboard-mod-super-e...
| is getting there I am sure with a little support it would happen
| finally.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| I'm curious if there's (still?) a patent on TrackPoint-like
| devices.
|
| (This is a tangent question. IIUC from that community thread,
| people are considering adaptive real ThinkPad keyboards to work
| in a Framework.)
| NewJazz wrote:
| According to Wikipedia:
|
| _IBM introduced it commercially in 1992 on its laptops under
| the name "TrackPoint", and patented it in 1997 (but the
| patent expired in 2017)_
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_stick
| Modified3019 wrote:
| The original patents on track point ran out years ago. Even
| dell has a (not great) version in some of their laptops.
|
| There could very well be some new patents on Lenovo's recent
| stuff for whatever reason, but there's nothing stopping
| anybody from copying what IBM put out.
| nrp wrote:
| We've been watching this thread closely (and providing cscott
| with additional documentation as he finds missing info).
| eviks wrote:
| This seems to be a good size factor to have a proper ergonomic
| split keyboard with a staggered layout. Has any mod like this
| appeared?
| nfriedly wrote:
| It looks like someone is working on it:
| https://community.frame.work/t/diy-staggered-columnar-laptop...
|
| Edit: that's actually for the FW 13, but folks are also talking
| about it for the FW 16: https://community.frame.work/t/split-
| keyboard/29777
| COGlory wrote:
| I'm in the queue for a Framework 16, but I still haven't totally
| decided. I'm typing this on my Framework 13, which I proudly
| received in the very first batch of Framework 13s to go out for
| sale.
|
| I have had a combination of good and bad experiences that make me
| hesitant. A couple months after getting my 13 it suddenly stopped
| booting. I emailed the company and everyone I talked to also had
| their name printed on the mainboard. Ultimately the CEO (nrp)
| instructed me to ship it back and they sent me out a new one. I
| thought it was a great experience.
|
| Fast forward a couple years and the thing won't turn on unless
| it's plugged in. Once it's plugged in, it boots up and has a full
| battery. Very confusing. Turns out it's the BIOS clock battery
| that's going dead, and the thing is wired in such a way that it
| can't boot without the clock battery, but the clock battery can
| only draw power from the wall, not from main battery. And if both
| go dead, I believe you need to take the laptop apart, physically
| pull the clock battery out, re-insert it, and put it back
| together. This means if you are the type of person that leaves
| you laptop in your backpack (like I am), it can become
| effectively useless unless you also carry the screwdriver with
| you.
|
| The customer service here is not so great. Their options are:
| send them your order date and number and they'll send you a new
| $5 battery (hurrah - honestly it's easier to just order one from
| Walmart or Amazon than dig up my order number), or you can ask
| them to send you a new kit that you can solder onto your
| mainboard that will allow the clock battery to draw power. They
| claim it's a bit of a tough soldering job, and while I can solder
| the odd thing, I didn't want to wreck it attempting to fix their
| engineering flaw. Supposedly the issue is fixed for boards after
| the 1st gen.
|
| I think this is quite poor customer service for a design flaw.
| The correct answer is to let me ship my mainboard back and have
| them fix it. It's a bit sad to see them get this so wrong. And
| this gets on to why I'm nervous about the Framework 16. It's
| another "1st gen" product, with only a 1 year limited warranty.
| That does not inspire confidence in any way. If the product was
| inexpensive, that'd be one thing, but it's not. I also buy audio
| products from a small company that designs and builds equipment
| in the US, and they offer a 5 year warranty, as well as out of
| warranty repairs for a reasonable price. To me, that's become the
| standard for bespoke engineering at a premium price.
|
| I understand Framework can't warranty some parts past the
| manufacturer's spec easily (though they could certainly figure
| out how to do it), but the least they could do is cover things
| like obvious design flaws that they are responsible for.
|
| I love the mission, the product is generally great (great may
| even be an understatement - for a team this small to do as well
| as they have is incredible), and the people all seem nice and
| have their hearts in the right place, but $2200 is too much to
| spend on a 1st gen laptop with a 1 year warranty.
| byefruit wrote:
| This mirrors my experience with Framework tbh. I love the
| hardware but they've let us down at pretty much every stage
| when it came to customer service.
|
| First laptop clearly had no QC and instead of offering to swap
| it, the expectation was we would do some pretty tricky repairs
| to a brand new laptop. We sent that one back but the return
| just sat there for weeks without being processed before a post
| on the forums got it moving.
|
| The other laptop refused to boot after eighteen months (still
| under the two year EU warranty) but involved about twenty back
| and forward emails to support - half of which ignored diagnoses
| we had already done and provided the results for.
|
| I love the hardware but I just don't think I can recommend
| people buy one at the moment, which is a real shame.
| ephemeral-life wrote:
| I heard that the keyboard for the 16 will run QMK firmware but I
| don't see anything mentioned. To me, the killer feature of this
| machine is the QMK keyboard. Being able to remap keys on the
| firmware level allows you to sidestep all the shitty ergonomic
| choices that software vendors have made. Keyboard shortcuts are
| typically three buttons and you usually need to twist your wrist
| to hit 2 of them. Really hope framework succeeds.
| nrp wrote:
| It does indeed. Here is our QMK fork:
| https://github.com/frameworkComputer/qmk_firmware
| new23d wrote:
| My interest in Framework is the DIY repairability. Not interested
| in modular upgrades but hot swappable ports on the side and
| should something need replacing, can be done in a relatively
| shorter and more predictable timespan than with ThinkPads and
| EliteBooks these days. Have had terrible experience with those in
| the last few years.
| todd3834 wrote:
| I was finally ready to be a full time Linux Laptop user and then
| Apple came out with the M series chips and I can't commit. It
| would feel like such a downgrade. Asahi Linux looks cool but if
| I'm buying a Mac I might as well use Mac OS.
|
| Anyone else feel this way or is it just me? Once I got the power
| and battery life from my M series chip I can't give it up.
| davidjade wrote:
| I really love the idea and I hope they succeed in the long run.
| Having an easily replaceable battery is just about enough for me
| to want to buy one over any other laptop. It's always the thing
| that degrades the fastest for me, even with premium laptops
| (looking at you, Surface Book 3). I want a laptop that lasts. In
| the age of everything being glued together, a laptop that can be
| end-user repaired is refreshing.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2024-02-06 23:01 UTC)