[HN Gopher] Apple Vision Pro review
___________________________________________________________________
Apple Vision Pro review
Author : fortran77
Score : 283 points
Date : 2024-01-30 14:28 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.wsj.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.wsj.com)
| satvikpendem wrote:
| As long as it's still gimped by not having a true productive OS
| like macOS, ie making everything go through the app store so as
| to not cannibalize Mac sales, it will be relegated as simply
| another form factor for the iPad. The iPad could've been a true
| Surface competitor, where I could run VSCode on it and compile
| applications natively, but instead it's just become a media
| consumption device for most people.
| Eisenstein wrote:
| > but instead it's just become a media consumption device for
| most people.
|
| I don't think that is true. I think 'most people' don't need a
| computer for more than what an iPad can do, and that your use
| case is more exceptional than common.
|
| Computers as we think of them, with a somewhat permissive
| operating system that let's you execute whatever you want are
| probably going to decrease in relevance to somewhere akin to
| how they were in the 90s -- incredibly powerful devices useful
| to some people who need them for particular reasons or just
| like using them. Everyone else will be fine with whatever the
| equivalent of the smartphone/tablet OS is.
| satvikpendem wrote:
| Sure, but I still see most people using iPads for media while
| having a MacBook for "real work," which is exactly what Apple
| wants, to not cannibalize their own products.
| urda wrote:
| I'm actually not seeing that and the market numbers don't
| agree with ya on that. Many less "pro" consumers (not
| coders or the heavy engineering skew you find here on HN)
| in my circles have moved away from their traditional Macs
| as their iPads coupled with their keyboard case of choice
| or apple pencil (or both) do a lot of their on-the-go.
| satvikpendem wrote:
| In my circles of even non-tech people, everyone has a new
| Apple Silicon MacBook now, I rarely see people using
| their iPad for work.
| ghaff wrote:
| I've had people at work tell me their kid doesn't want a
| MacBook because their phone works fine for writing
| papers. My brain still can't process.
|
| I've never made my iPad work for me on a business trip
| except for something very short where I won't really be
| writing. I also don't draw and, while I could probably do
| photo editing on it well enough, I wait until I get home
| and use old-school Lightroom.
| poulsbohemian wrote:
| I'd agree with this, with one little carve out... when I
| was traveling internationally, it was super helpful to
| have an iPad and be able to slip in a sim card for a
| local carrier. That plus slightly smaller size made the
| iPad a better option than carrying my laptop in those
| specific circumstances.
| ghaff wrote:
| Fair point. I don't have an iPad with cellular. Honestly
| not sure when/if I'll get a new iPad--it's about 6 years
| old--and I have a long recreational international trip
| coming up; haven't decided if I'll bring a laptop or not.
| jwells89 wrote:
| Apps like Procreate have sold a _lot_ of iPads to artists
| who use them for "real work", as has the Sidecar capability
| which lets an iPad and Apple Pencil act like a Cintiq with
| a better screen that's not desk-bound.
|
| It's true that they're limited but that doesn't mean that
| there isn't work that's well-suited for them.
| ryandrake wrote:
| Or, the computer manufacturers will try their best to stuff
| the Permissiveness Genie back into the bottle. It seems with
| every macOS release, Apple is determined to make more things
| previous Macs could do either impossible, hidden behind
| permissions or hidden behind default-off settings.
| wombat-man wrote:
| Well, you can use your mac's screen inside the vision pro, but
| I've read the resolution for that is weirdly low, QHD.
|
| Meta isn't really opening up their headset, since the whole
| point of that adventure for them was to have their 'iphone'
| type kingdom.
|
| Our best bet might just be Microsoft but they gave up on mixed
| reality windows, and Idk if they're really gearing up to jump
| into this product space.
|
| I'm fascinated in the idea of Vision pro, not sure I'm ready to
| shell out for what is basically just a really great movie
| watching experience. I can see the movie pretty well on my 4k
| tv, and I'm not sure the improvement is worth the cash.
| ipsum2 wrote:
| Side loading apps on the quest is pretty simple using the
| aptly named SideQuest, it only requires a one time 15 minute
| set up. Definitely a lot easier than trying to do this on an
| iPhone/iPad/iQuest.
| PaulHoule wrote:
| Meta Quest also has full support for WebXR which lets you
| bypass all the app store BS. You can use this framework to
| make worlds visible on most XR headsets as well as desktop
| and mobile
|
| https://aframe.io/
|
| My understanding is that Apple is making excuses about
| being slow to support WebXR.
|
| As much as the media has benn fixated about the failed
| _Horizon Worlds_ (which is a very interesting story that I
| 've never seen elaborated from a software dev's
| perspective) you might not know that the successful model
| for Quest is the same as publishing on other game consoles.
| The market for single-player games for MQ is really healthy
| but multiplayer games are really thin on the ground which
| makes the "metaverse" idea look pretty dodgy. I mean, there
| is the multiplayer VRChat but you're going to have to rub
| shoulders with weaboos and furries which keeps other
| obnoxious people away.
| Jcowell wrote:
| The VisionPro supports WebXR is safari
|
| https://www.roadtovr.com/apple-vision-pro-webxr-support-
| safa...
| deergomoo wrote:
| > I've read the resolution for that is weirdly low, QHD
|
| This is something I've been wondering about. The Vision Pro's
| displays are 4K per eye, for the entire field of view. The
| monitor I'm sitting in front of is 5K, and takes up quite a
| bit less than my full field of view.
|
| Surely the virtual Mac screen (and everything, I guess) is
| gonna be substantially lower resolution than traditional
| high-DPI screens at normal viewing distances?
| Synaesthesia wrote:
| It's going to be presented as a 5k Retina display to your
| Mac, with a 2550x1600 at 2x rendering, downscaled somewhat
| to a bit over 4k of so. Therefore it will appear kinda like
| a retina imac. 27 display but not quite as sharp.
| SirMaster wrote:
| Seems like it would be less than that though?
|
| Depends on your typical FOV to your monitor.
|
| If the headset manages to be 4000 pixels wide, but that
| is filling say 110 degree FOV, then if your virtual
| display is 44 degree FOV, it's only going to be
| represented by about 1600 pixels wide. 4000/(110/44) =
| 1600.
|
| I wish we knew what the actual resolution of this headset
| is and what the FOV is.
|
| They say it's 23 MP total, so if the screens were square
| that would be 3391x3391.
|
| If the FOV is 100 and our virtual screen was 50, then the
| screen would be 1695 pixels across.
|
| And finally you lose some effective resolution because of
| the nature of the virtual screen being not aligned
| perfectly with the headset's panel. Since your head would
| be slightly askew in relation to the virtual monitor due
| to head tracking.
|
| https://kguttag.com/2023/08/05/apple-vision-pro-
| part-5a-why-...
| harpastum wrote:
| I think your math is correct, and it will be very limited
| compared to a real-life retina screen, but I think
| there's also a perceived resolution increase from having
| binocular vision and moving.
|
| If you hold your head steady while looking through a
| window with a plastic screen on it, things outside are
| obstructed. If you move your head slightly back and forth
| and focus in the distance, the screen pretty much
| disappears.
|
| Your brain can do some motion smoothing to determine the
| "actual" content, even if it's sampled. I'm not sure how
| you could quantify it, and it only helps a relatively
| small amount, but it's there.
| whafro wrote:
| But you can see your Mac (running macOS) on it. In that sense,
| it's "just" a monitor, but far from Apple's most expensive
| monitor.
|
| Another comment mentions that you're confined to the host
| computer's "screen" and can't break applications away from that
| rectangle. But you could imagine that being a possibility in
| the not-too-distant future.
| gpm wrote:
| I don't think it's worried about cannibalizing mac sales. If it
| does that it just means Apple gets to sell computers at a
| substantial premium with a moat against other manufacturers.
|
| I think it's worried about not being able to apply a 30% tax on
| third party software.
| kristiandupont wrote:
| It will have a browser. You can do pretty much anything in a
| browser.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| > it's just become a media consumption device
|
| That's exactly what corporations like Apple want their devices
| to be.
| losvedir wrote:
| I feel like this is a gut-level response based on history with
| the iPad, but doesn't translate to the Vision Pro.
|
| I think it's meant to be used _with_ a Mac for most
| productivity use cases. That 's how I intend to use mine:
| VSCode, terminals, compiling all happening on my nearby laptop
| with the Vision Pro as "just" a 4K monitor, and then extra apps
| like Slack, Zoom, Safari, Mail, music, etc, floating around as
| native visionOS windows.
|
| In _addition_ , it can be used as an iPad-like media
| consumption device, e.g., on an airplane, but I see that as an
| additional (and for me only supplementary) use case.
| spking wrote:
| https://archive.ph/OiKhr
| atbpaca wrote:
| I read somewhere that the FOV is only 100-110, as opposed to full
| immersion as seen on their marketing material.
| wombat-man wrote:
| That's what I'm reading too. But reviewers still say it's good
| for movie viewing.
| Someone wrote:
| You don't need a large FOV for movie viewing. Even if it were
| only 60deg, you'd be able see a 2 meter wide screen at a
| distance of 2 meters (and that's measuring that distance to
| the edges of that screen; its center would be about 15%
| closer)
| wombat-man wrote:
| Yeah that makes sense.
| Kirby64 wrote:
| I've got an HTC Vive which is also ~110degrees. Although you do
| initially get the 'looking through ski goggles' feeling when
| you first put it on, that feeling VERY quickly goes away when
| you start doing anything inside. It's plenty immersive. Sure,
| more FoV would be nicer, but it's not like looking through a
| telescope or something.
| pavlov wrote:
| The Verge's review says the FOV feels noticeably smaller than
| the Quest 3 which is 110deg:
|
| _" The displays have other limitations: the field of view
| isn't huge, and the essential nature of looking at tiny
| displays through lenses makes that field of view feel even
| smaller. Apple won't tell me the exact number, but the Vision
| Pro's field of view is certainly smaller than the Quest 3's 110
| horizontal degrees. That means there are fairly large black
| borders around what you're seeing, a bit like you're looking
| through binoculars."_
|
| https://www.theverge.com/24054862/apple-vision-pro-review-vr...
| jsheard wrote:
| I don't think it's even possible to get a fully immersive FOV
| in that form factor with the current SOTA optics, the few
| headsets which do have ultra-wide FOVs are enormous bricks.
|
| The widest FOV headset you can currently buy is the XTAL 3 at
| 180 degrees, and it's huge, despite being a PC-tethered design
| that doesn't need to make space for a SoC or battery.
|
| https://www.xtal.pro/product/xtal-3-mr
|
| We're a few breakthroughs away from having full immersion _and_
| a reasonable form factor at the same time.
| dylan604 wrote:
| I always think back to the Nikkor 6mm fisheye lens[0] for
| example of what it takes to have 180deg FOV. It's _a lot_ of
| glass.
|
| [0]https://duckduckgo.com/?t=h_&q=nikkor+6mm+f2.8+fisheye&iax
| =i...
| jsheard wrote:
| Amusingly the XTAL 3 MR is only slightly heavier than the
| Vision Pro despite all the glass it must have inside to
| produce that FOV.
| filoleg wrote:
| Yeah, but XTAL 3 MR has zero standalone capabilities and
| requires being tethered to a rather beefy PC to function
| at all.
|
| From their own page, the very _minimum_ requirements for
| the PC are 32GB RAM and an RTX2060 GPU. And that's a
| minimum, so I am not sure how well it functions with
| those specs.
| pezezin wrote:
| That lens is even more impressive, it has a 210o FOV! Yes,
| it can see behind itself.
| baby wrote:
| Personally when I use the Quest I don't feel like my view is
| limited, maybe it is tho but it's non noticeable
| isoprophlex wrote:
| That... doesn't sound all that bad, to be honest. But will it run
| Pycharm?
| cpdean wrote:
| Imagining all the people getting first-degree burns on their
| face trying to open jetbrains applications.
| lapetitejort wrote:
| I don't see the problem as long as they're using dark mode
| SushiHippie wrote:
| They probably meant the heat the CPU generates when opening
| heavy programs
| CharlesW wrote:
| No, but remote desktop solutions will be a popular app category
| for AVP. The developer of Virtual Desktop has announced that he
| intends to support visionOS, for example.
| tunesmith wrote:
| One of the aspects of the device that has been under-realized is
| that when mirroring your desktop/laptop display to the AVP, you
| can't break out its applications into different areas. You can't
| pull them away from the desktop window.
|
| This is one of those things that Apple never claimed was
| supported, and yet there's something about that behavior that
| feels like such a natural intuitive implication to the technology
| that a lot of people feel alarmed or even cheated when they
| realize it's not possible (yet). It's been funny to watch the
| various discussion threads as people pop up talking about their
| shocked realization and disappointed feelings.
|
| Update: I did realize when watching the WSJ video that the
| "mirrored" display actually appeared to have greater "resolution"
| (more pixels in height and width) than what she had on her
| laptop. So that's something.
| orenlindsey wrote:
| You can put VisionOS apps next to the Mac desktop, so it isn't
| as much of a problem as it seems.
| jwells89 wrote:
| I wouldn't be surprised if this came in a visionOS update. On a
| shorter timescale it could also come in the form of third party
| apps, because there's no technical limitations preventing a
| server app from cutting out windows on a desktop OS and sending
| them over a wire to a visionOS client.
| spogbiper wrote:
| There are third party apps that do this already on the Quest.
| I believe they can replicate Mac screens, they definitely can
| replicate Windows PC screens into the VR space. If Apple
| doesn't provide a 1st party solution I suspect someone else
| will soon.
| orangecat wrote:
| _On a shorter timescale it could also come in the form of
| third party apps_
|
| If Apple approves it, of course. This is one of my major
| concerns; there's a lot of potentially useful functionality
| that could be implemented, but you have to jump through the
| app store hoops and hope that Apple doesn't decide that it
| conflicts with their idea of what you should be allowed to
| do.
| jwells89 wrote:
| Functionally speaking these apps would be scarcely
| distinguishable from the plethora of screen streaming apps
| that exist on the App Store already, like Screens and
| Moonlight. Of course Apple could reject these apps anyway
| but it seems unlikely.
| leetharris wrote:
| I agree that this should be considered long term, however...
| you are able to snap VisionOS / iPadOS apps anywhere around
| your Macbook view AND you are able to control those very apps
| with your Macbook trackpad.
|
| So even though you have a sequestered Mac output alongside
| Vision apps, you can use the same controls for all them
| simultaneously. This should help in the interim.
| mjamesaustin wrote:
| Yeah when I found this out, it resolved my concerns. Most of
| my apps will have a native Vision release (email, web
| browser, slack, etc.) and my actual monitor screen will only
| need more professional software (e.g. Photoshop, Illustrator,
| InDesign).
| cududa wrote:
| It seems very reasonable this will be a future feature. I've
| long suspected iPad OS' stage manager feature shipping so half
| baked was really more of getting the platform ready to support
| multiple apps and easier manipulation (from a developer
| perspective) of the double buffered "window" textures - given
| Vision Pro is based on iPad OS.
|
| With Stage Manager on macOS now, it feels like they have all
| the primitives in place to "transpose" macOS stage manager
| windows textures to Vision OS/ the iPad OS foundation.
|
| Though this will be tricky to get right for _all_ apps. Will be
| interesting to see if it 's a macOS App store only feature/
| API, opt-in, or some other option
| refulgentis wrote:
| They shipped iPad Stage Manager half-baked, to get _iPad_
| developers ready for double-buffered windows, so they could
| eventually ship the visionOS _macOS_ integration half-baked?
| Doesn 't sound right at all to my ears, even though I'm
| stoked for my order!
|
| EDIT: -5* doesn't make sense, this is the most polite way you
| can point out that getting macOS apps windowed on visionOS
| has ~0 to do with double-buffered windows on iPad OS. n.b. I
| didn't use half-baked, OP did.
| cududa wrote:
| No, I'm saying they shipped iPad stage manager half baked
| for their own uses/ to refine for AVP. I'm positing that a
| major reason for macOS stage manager's existence is as a
| transport layer/ "texture formatter"
| Terretta wrote:
| I don't think it's half-baked. I think it's lightly
| toasted. :-)
|
| I use iPad Pro as a kind of sidecar daily driver, in the
| magnetic dock magic keyboard w/ trackpad.
|
| As I type this, the screen shows a traditional MacOS style
| dock across bottom, four Stage Manager window clusters I
| can tap with a thumb on the left, and Safari plus Messages
| taking 2/3 and 1/2 of screen respectively.
|
| There's more app and pixel real estate than most Windows
| laptops, and bringing screen sets to the foreground or
| swapping them back to the side is so natural I almost feel
| like giving up that space on my Mac as well.
|
| The big thing I saw happen from apps over the past two
| version of iOS is app devs realizing their windows will not
| always be full screen or 1/2 screen size, but arbitrary
| size.
|
| By now, most iPad apps of any serious nature are
| effectively window size independent, making them play well
| with others in stage manager. It's easy to see how that
| would make them play well with the headset one day.
| Jcowell wrote:
| On another operative, I use Stage Manager everyday of Mac &
| iPad and it's pretty neat. I actually forgot I was until
| you mentioned it
| andrewmcwatters wrote:
| They can already do this with the desktop composition
| software they use today. All the windows are virtualized onto
| backing layers that you can draw anywhere and add effects to.
| It's how window shadows work, and how certain window effects
| are done.
|
| They just haven't done it.
| ncr100 wrote:
| So Apple could have done this, but did not. Why?
| (Speculation and leaks welcome)
|
| - [Profit on basic innovation] Did they want to wait and
| see how their customers would adopt VisionOS's native free-
| floating windows, so as to avoid cognitive overload by
| commingling with MacOS windows?
|
| - [Benevolence to fellow competitors] Did they not want to
| takeover the existing market of virtualized VR desktops?
| theultdev wrote:
| Most likely because it wasn't polished, so get it out now
| in a polished and limited state and now you have a fancy
| update to tout when it is done.
| realslimjd wrote:
| I'm reasonably certain it's a combination bandwidth and
| tech issue.
|
| The Vision Pro is effectively using AirPlay to mirror the
| whole screen. If you used AirPlay to mirror each window
| as a whole screen, you'd run out of bandwidth pretty
| quickly.
|
| The windowing system in MacOS, Quartz Compositor, also
| isn't built to stream window information. Right now it
| has a big built in assumption that any windows its
| displaying are on a screen it also controls. It was
| probably too big a lift across teams to also re-write the
| graphics stack for MacOS for the launch of the Vision
| Pro. Hopefully they get it working in the future, but
| neither of these problems are easy to solve.
| cududa wrote:
| I'm aware. I've worked in the space. It isn't as simple as
| you're making it out.
| refulgentis wrote:
| Yes, it is.
|
| In fact, there's already a project for it on GitHub.
| https://github.com/saagarjha/Ensemble
|
| 480 lines total, including comments, headers, whole
| shebang.
| chaos_emergent wrote:
| > Ensemble is currently "pre-alpha": it's really more of
| a demo at this point. There's a lot of things I need to
| work on and until then it is unlikely I will be taking
| any code contributions.... The code is definitely not
| designed for general-purpose use yet, so don't expect
| much of it :)
| threeseed wrote:
| Tech demos are often easy to put together.
|
| It's all of the edge cases and UX refinements that takes
| time.
| refulgentis wrote:
| Yeah, sure. I'm gonna go ahead and say Apple probably
| could have found a way to ship this over the visionOS dev
| cycle.
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| Sorry but almost 10 years ago I could do this on Xorg
| where the worst problem is that compositors cannot
| redirect input (so you had to kludge new events from
| scratch). I cannot imagine it would take more than _half
| an hour_ for someone with macOS display compositor
| experience to implement it.
| refulgentis wrote:
| You nailed it, down to how you'd do it without _any_ help
| from Cupertino: https://github.com/saagarjha/Ensemble
| sleepybrett wrote:
| It's probably more down to the getting the UI right on
| apple's end.
| kj99 wrote:
| Except that doesn't actually do it. It is just a proof of
| concept.
|
| Try it with a full suite of Mac Apps and you'll find it
| falls apart because they aren't all well behaved.
| wharvle wrote:
| I doubt making the windows draw is what's taking them
| time to get right.
| glhaynes wrote:
| _I cannot imagine it would take more than _half an hour_
| for someone with macOS display compositor experience to
| implement it._
|
| What fools Apple engineering management must be, then!
| kj99 wrote:
| And the reason Xorg is now dying in favor of a system
| that _doesn't_ have this capability is because the
| architecture that enabled it, while cool at the time,
| severely limited the graphics performance and capability
| of the applications.
| ubercow13 wrote:
| What? Doesn't Wayland work this way by design?
| brookst wrote:
| Yes?
|
| The first iphone didn't have copy/paste.
|
| Apple will always prioritize critical scenarios over nice
| to have. None of these things are technically difficult,
| it's just time. I'm willing to believe they released too
| early, but at some point you have to start learning from
| real users.
| gorkish wrote:
| > They just haven't done it.
|
| Literally nobody has done it. It's beyond ridiculous that
| you can't already show or duplicate an application window
| on any display you want and allow it to be controlled from
| anywhere it is visible.
|
| Searching for ways to do this lead one into extremely niche
| software ecosystems. Please is there any collaboration app
| out there that makes it seamless to toss windows around
| like everyone actually wants?
| joshspankit wrote:
| I feel like multiple people did it back in the original
| X11 days, and almost certainly when compiz was the new
| hotness
| jandrese wrote:
| Isn't this how ordinary spanning monitors works? It might
| be slightly awkward with AR goggles since the relative
| orientation of the displays will be constantly changing
| as your head moves, and what happens to a window you have
| half on and half off of the Macbook's screen when you
| look away? Or do you want to have the application jump
| between devices, like appearing on your fridge when you
| go for a drink? With the old X11 protocol and a daemon in
| the middle this was possible but the use cases were
| extremely limited and the security issues made it a pain
| in the ass to actually use. With distros moving away from
| X11 this is only going to get harder, and you have to ask
| yourself how much you really want it.
|
| This would mean the goggles would be basically just a
| dumb display for the Mac. It would also be weird to try
| to move an AR app onto your Mac.
| losvedir wrote:
| Yeah, I don't think "mirroring" is quite the right term. It's
| effectively a 4K monitor for the laptop, with the laptop screen
| going black. Most (all?) Mac laptops don't have a 4K screen, so
| you have more screen real estate than "mirroring" would make
| you think.
|
| But this is sufficient for many use cases (or at least, mine).
| I pre-ordered one with the idea that my main work will be on
| the 4K monitor, with most of my superfluous apps floating
| around as native visionOS apps. That's mail, a web browser, and
| zoom, which all have apps now, and Slack, which I could just
| use Safari for but may have a native app in the future.
| grumbel wrote:
| > 4K monitor
|
| It's more like 1080p monitor. The virtual monitor only covers
| a small part of the VisionPro's display. You can compensate a
| bit for a lack of resolution by making the virtual screen
| bigger or by leaning in, but none of that gives you a 4k
| display.
|
| To really take proper advantage of the VR environment you
| really need the ability to pull out apps into their own
| windows, as than you can move lesser used apps into your
| peripheral vision and leave only the important stuff right in
| front of you. You also miss out on the verticality that VR
| offers when you are stuck with a virtual 16:9 screen.
| brookst wrote:
| 4k is important because of perspective, rotation, and
| aliasing. Just sending 1080p would look terrible.
| threeseed wrote:
| It is a 1440p display.
|
| Which is the resolution that the majority of PC users are
| likely using.
| xattt wrote:
| Is it mirrored as some HEVC video stream from the laptop, or
| are UI elements actually rendered on headset itself?
| layer8 wrote:
| The screen real-estate is the same as for a 1440p screen.
| From The Verge's review:
|
| "There is a lot of very complicated display scaling going on
| behind the scenes here, but the easiest way to think about it
| is that you're basically getting a 27-inch Retina display,
| like you'd find on an iMac or Studio Display. Your Mac thinks
| it's connected to a 5K display with a resolution of 5120 x
| 2880, and it runs macOS at a 2:1 logical resolution of 2560 x
| 1440, just like a 5K display. (You can pick other
| resolutions, but the device warns you that they'll be lower
| quality.) That virtual display is then streamed as a 4K 3560
| x 2880 video to the Vision Pro, where you can just make it as
| big as you want. The upshot of all of this is that 4K content
| runs at a native 4K resolution -- it has all the pixels to do
| it, just like an iMac -- but you have a grand total of 2560 x
| 1440 to place windows in, regardless of how big you make the
| Mac display in space, and you're not seeing a pixel-perfect
| 5K image."
| hyperthesis wrote:
| Discontent over this implementation detail shows users are
| fully sold on the basic idea. Like, if the main complaint about
| the first Fords was the colour range.
| nimblegorilla wrote:
| I think it's a more important feature than just a cosmetic
| color. Imagine if you bought a truck to haul cargo, but were
| then told it can only transport one type of cargo at a time.
| That would suck.
| nickrubin wrote:
| It looks like someone is working on a Mac app that does exactly
| this, and they seem to have a functional prototype:
| https://x.com/TheOriginaliTE/status/1751251567641346340?s=20
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| Unclear if Apple will allow this in the store
|
| edit: Yes I know you can build apps before they're in the
| store
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| As long as it's open source, you can sideload onto any iOS
| device by building it yourself.
| dns_snek wrote:
| Iff you pay an annual $100 dev fee.
|
| Yes I know you can _technically_ do this without a paid
| dev account, but it 's practically useless because it has
| to be re-done every 7 days.
| shadowfacts wrote:
| It is permitted on the App Store. The developer had a
| thread on the fediverse several days ago.
| zitterbewegung wrote:
| The largest portable MacBook Pro 16.2 inch has a 3456-by-2234
| native resolution at 254 pixels per inch which by default is
| halved . So I don't know what she means exactly about 4k but
| there are enough pixels to do a portable 4k display.
| tiltowait wrote:
| The inability to break out Mac windows curbed a lot of my
| enthusiasm for the AVP. I hope Apple will eventually add it,
| but I'm not going to spend $3500 on that hope.
| pmarreck wrote:
| The fact that pretty much everyone who owns both a Vision Pro
| and a Mac would want that feature means it's probably going
| to happen.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| It will be less of an issue for me if we start seeing native
| builds of popular IDEs like xcode, intelli-j/goland, etc for
| vision pro (and other apps for other people say photoshop). I
| think of the 'projected screen' feature more like a
| compatibility layer like Rosetta 2. You use it until you get
| a native build then it stops being a thing you bother with.
| callalex wrote:
| That will never happen. Nobody will make real software for
| iOS because nobody wants to pay a 30% fee for the privilege
| of randomly having their whole business shut down when an
| app reviewer is in a bad mood.
| huytersd wrote:
| What world do you live in? The iOS App Store is probably
| the most full fledged and populated app ecosystem there
| is.
| callalex wrote:
| And yet none of the software GP mentioned are available
| on it.
| huytersd wrote:
| It's been 1 day.
| callalex wrote:
| No, iPads have been around for more than a decade.
| huytersd wrote:
| Are you referring to IDEs? The iPad is not a productive
| machine. It's for consumption. The VisionOS is for
| productivity which is very different from anything on iOS
| so I imagine it's going to be available on it.
| threeseed wrote:
| IntelliJ, GoLand etc are Java apps.
|
| Windows, BeOS and Commodore 64 apps also don't run
| natively on the iPad or Vision Pro.
| dirtyv wrote:
| Appears possible in theory:
| https://github.com/saagarjha/Ensemble
| wtallis wrote:
| Streaming an arbitrary collection of windows instead of a
| single finished, composited framebuffer increases the bandwidth
| requirements by at least an order of magnitude. That's never
| going to work well over WiFi.
| ehsankia wrote:
| As long as the total number of pixels is less, I don't see
| what that has to be true, at least bandwidth wise? Compute
| wise, the vision might have to do slightly more to separate
| the buffer and composite them into the AR view in different
| places, but the bandwidth should be direction proportional to
| the number/size of each window. If I can fit all the windows
| on a 4K screen, then I don't see why the software can't split
| that and lay it out separate in my view instead of in a
| single rectangle.
| jayd16 wrote:
| Just compress the stream. Total pixels increase the vram on
| the device but popping out a static window shouldn't take any
| more than a trivial amount of streaming bandwidth.
| mtillman wrote:
| the iPhone debuted without copy/paste. They'll get to it but
| maybe not immediately.
| timenova wrote:
| Further, I wish they added support to make multiple virtual
| monitors from macOS Workspaces, like what happens today when
| you attach another monitor. Switching workspaces can be bound
| to keys in the Keyboard Settings. Moving windows to other
| workspaces is easy to do with third-party apps like Amethyst.
|
| It feels like the Vision Pro would definitely be a great
| replacement for people who (want to) buy multiple expensive
| monitors, but it doesn't fully reach that potential today, and
| mostly because of software? Although rendering 3 or 4 virtual
| workspaces through ad-hoc Wifi at 4K 60fps+ low-latency would
| certainly be a huge challenge.
| reactordev wrote:
| I do this sometimes on my meta quest. Go into desktop VR and
| pull up a couple desktop views so I can see things happen in
| real time on different "screens".
| huytersd wrote:
| I guess there is something to the macpro being able to handle
| the output for one screen at a time. If it has to render 4k
| outputs for 10 different screens simultaneously, performance is
| going to suffer.
| joshspankit wrote:
| On Windows of all places (95ish to MEish) there was a remote
| tool called radmin and it had something that I wish companies
| had embraced: it hooked in to (maybe even before?) the window-
| rendering functions and sent the changes over the network. It's
| hard to explain exactly what I mean because everyone is so used
| to streaming pictures of the screen over the network (if they
| even use remote access at all), but you could have _less than
| 20ms latency while controlling over the internet while using
| tiny amounts of data_ (50kbps? 100? not sure but somewhere
| around there).
|
| OSX had the opportunity to follow that path before settling on
| the "render windows, capture the screen, compress the image,
| send it over the network to be decompressed" VNC-style remote
| access that's bog-standard today, and if they had Vision Pro
| would be set up to be an absolute mind-blowing macOS
| experience.
| jackvalentine wrote:
| X windows system basically does that iirc, and I remember the
| magic you speak of.
| lbussell wrote:
| Yeah, you can do this with x forwarding on Linux. Not sure if
| there's a modern Wayland equivalent.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Wayland clients don't draw things the way old-school X
| clients do (neither do modern X clients), so it doesn't
| make sense at the Wayland level. KDE or GTK could
| potentially implement something like this though.
| sterlind wrote:
| isn't that how Xorg remoting used to work as well? the
| display server and client are separate, so whether the pipe
| was local or remote didn't matter. In principle, Wayland
| could do it too, I think, if there were a way to synchronize
| texture handles (the Wayland protocol is also message-based,
| but IPCs GPU handles around instead of copying bitmaps.)
|
| I guess one downfall is that that your pipe has to be
| lossless, and there's no way to recover from a broken pipe
| (unless you keep a shadow copy of the window state, and have
| a protocol for resynchronizing from that, and a way to ensure
| you don't get out of sync.)
| aidenn0 wrote:
| > On Windows of all places (95ish to MEish) there was a
| remote tool called radmin and it had something that I wish
| companies had embraced: it hooked in to (maybe even before?)
| the window-rendering functions and sent the changes over the
| network. It's hard to explain exactly what I mean because
| everyone is so used to streaming pictures of the screen over
| the network (if they even use remote access at all), but you
| could have less than 20ms latency while controlling over the
| internet while using tiny amounts of data (50kbps? 100? not
| sure but somewhere around there).
|
| This has been done many times before (see e.g. X Windows) and
| has known downsides. Off the top of my head:
|
| - You need the same fonts installed on both sides for native
| font rendering to work
|
| - Applications that don't use native drawing functions will
| tend to be very chatty, making the total amount of data
| larger than VNC/rdesktop/&c. style "send compressed pictures"
|
| - Detaching and re-attaching to an application is hard to get
| right, so it's either disallowed or buggy.
| astrange wrote:
| This can only work until it doesn't, and it won't work in
| many situations because eg 1. apps aren't going to bother
| being compatible with it 2. compositing has surprising
| performance and memory costs, and in this case the
| destination is more constrained than the source.
| shermantanktop wrote:
| IIRC many windows apps at that time were using MFC or
| otherwise composing a UI out of rects, lines, buttons, etc.
| Then came Winamp and the fad to draw crazy bitmaps as part of
| the UI. If everyone does that, shipping draw commands is less
| useful and shipping pixels makes a lot more sense.
| barrkel wrote:
| This is how Windows Remote Desktop used to work - it would
| forward GDI instructions to be rendered remotely.
|
| It falls apart as UIs got richer, browsers in particular:
| they're entirely composited in-app and not via GDI, because
| GDI isn't an expressive enough interface. So you end up
| shipping a lot of bitmaps, and to optimize you need to
| compress them. You might as well compress the whole screen
| then.
|
| https://www.anandtech.com/show/3972/nvidia-gtc-2010-wrapup/3
| freeone3000 wrote:
| That's really weird, because even the hololens has this
| feature. Multiple windows, multiple desktops is how we want to
| work.
| NoPedantsThanks wrote:
| No video input, no dice.
|
| This thing could have been useful on day one for lots of people,
| from drone operators to cinematographers to programmers. But
| Apple's sad fear of I/O has crippled yet another product.
|
| People should expect that a $3500 video-display device has a way
| to get video into it.
| jhatemyjob wrote:
| It's actually insane, it's been over a decade, and nobody put
| 2+2 together on this. It's right in the name... Head Mounted
| Display.
|
| I bet Luckey had something like this working in the early days
| but abandoned it because it wouldn't work for games. What a
| shame
| spogbiper wrote:
| What's the killer app? Quest headsets have been out for years and
| haven't seemed to find one. Well.. besides 3d porn
| jasonsb wrote:
| It looks like there's no killer app this time. They just bet on
| the fact that people will buy it because it's expensive and
| it's designed by Apple.
| joezydeco wrote:
| Macintosh '84 didn't have a killer app until 1985-1986. And
| it was a laser printer.
| microtherion wrote:
| Not sure about the social acceptance of people walking
| around with a laser printer strapped to their face...
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _What 's the killer app?_
|
| Movies on airplanes. I'm guessing these will become virtually
| ubiquitous in the front cabin within a few years.
| ghaff wrote:
| You mean the front cabin where they have big screens for
| every seat?
|
| I couldn't see carrying one of these instead of just an iPad
| for movies. (But then I'm a very light packer.)
| hwbehrens wrote:
| I think it will be more like the proliferation of noise-
| cancelling headphones; it's not about what it brings
| (music, dialog, etc) but about what it blocks out (the
| ambient sounds). Yes, you can watch a movie on a plane now,
| but with a headset you _remove_ the depressing, crowded,
| and claustrophobic visual environment.
| ghaff wrote:
| Although I'm not sure I want to be _that_ isolated from
| the environment. (I do use noise canceling devices but
| they 're in-ear.)
| whartung wrote:
| Back in the day I was flying back east and had some movies
| loaded on my iPod Touch.
|
| And I was casually watching one in my seat, the movie was
| "Blackhawk Down". And it occurred to me how a neighbor
| might not enjoy watching blood, guns, and violence out of
| the corner of their eye.
|
| So, I can absolutely see value in a headset style movie
| experience in public places.
| ghaff wrote:
| I am perhaps slightly selective about what I watch on a
| plane--depending somewhat on who is sitting beside me.
| But my observation is that US airlines have gotten quite
| a bit less editing-heavy in that regard and, at some
| level, it's not my problem. (Although I'll be reasonable
| if someone cares enough to ask me to not watch
| something.)
| amlib wrote:
| Wouldn't just about any available headset that costs 10x to
| 20x less suffice for this?
| spogbiper wrote:
| Pretty much, but I haven't seen anyone on a plane watching
| movies with a Quest or similar headset
| filleokus wrote:
| XReal's glasses seem like they could be enough for this:
| https://www.xreal.com/air2
| bnolsen wrote:
| For international flights they have may have a screen on the
| back of the seat in front of you. Using a tablet or small
| laptop works just as well without the discomfort of a
| headset.
| AlexandrB wrote:
| A tablet also takes up less luggage space and probably has
| better battery life.
| willio58 wrote:
| I've seen a few ideas that seem really interesting, just not at
| the price point Apple is offering. And honestly I'm just going
| to wait for these headsets to be smaller and lighter too before
| buying one. I don't think anyone at Apple is under the
| impression this device is going to be a money maker, but more
| of a gen-1 device to provide a place to start from for further
| work.
|
| - Learning instruments in a guitar-hero way (Piano, guitar,
| drums)
|
| - Cooking with timers and recipes right in front of you (will
| be even more doable with better internal displays in the
| future)
|
| - Coding with virtual displays on-demand. This is another thing
| where we still need more resolution to make it really doable.
|
| - Watching movies. Obviously a solo way of doing this but I
| could see it being big.
|
| - (once these are much lighter and less intrusive) I could see
| these being huge for virtual workouts like Yoga, weight
| lifting, etc.
|
| Also regarding your question, I'm trying to think of the
| "killer app" is for a currently successful device - iPhone. I
| mean, camera? Texting? Most people use tiktok a ton but I
| wouldn't consider that a killer app. I think it's more of the
| device providing a home for a bunch of different apps.
| spogbiper wrote:
| killer app for the iphone was a truly usable portable web
| browser. everything else early iphones did had been done many
| times before, but a web browser that actually worked pretty
| well on a portable device was new
| patchorang wrote:
| Cooking sounds like a nice application, but as soon as the
| headset steams up/get condensation on the glass it will be
| quite annoying. I can't imagine cooking in ski goggles.
| MegaDeKay wrote:
| Worse than that would be when you fry something and the
| front of your $3500 headset gets splattered in grease. No
| thanks.
| theshackleford wrote:
| It's called a cloth and they cost almost nothing.
| Sodman wrote:
| IDK they're like $19 these days and that's without even
| knowing if they'll officially list the Vision Pro as a
| supported device yet or not!
|
| https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MM6F3AM/A/polishing-
| cloth
| oriolid wrote:
| > Learning instruments in a guitar-hero way (Piano, guitar,
| drums)
|
| What would VR add here? For guitar-hero style instrument
| learning, there are already Yousician, Simply Piano / Guitar,
| Gibson and Fender apps, and quite a few others.
| bnolsen wrote:
| rocksmith is the big player here. It's awesome with a big
| screen TV. VR only gets in the way.
| willio58 wrote:
| For piano it lines up the keys with the notes on your
| physical keyboard, so you don't need to look at a separate
| representation of a keyboard, you can literally see the
| notes fall onto your piano at the right times. Same thing
| with the other instruments.
| oriolid wrote:
| The problem is that once you get past the very initial
| stage, you want to read ahead of what you play at the
| moment. At that moment Synthesia-style falling blocks
| notation becomes difficult to read because the blocks
| don't have any position reference besides the keys and no
| time values. Even the scrolling sheet music or tab is
| distracting compared stationary black and white. With
| guitar there's the additional problem that you can't see
| both hands at the same time, and usually you won't be
| looking at your hands at all. And if you ever want to
| play without help from the app, you need to learn to find
| the notes anyway.
|
| This is by the way a great explanation of all the
| attempts to make music easier to read and how they fail:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq3bUFgEcb4
| crtified wrote:
| > What would VR add here?
|
| I'm imagining an AI VR tutor - heck, with some legal
| deepfake+AI style evolution, perhaps that tutor could
| actually be a famous player, talking to you.
|
| The 3D view gives, well, a 3D view, and all the advantages
| it entails. For example, when you are with a physical real
| world teacher, you don't have a fixed view. You can observe
| from any angle, the teacher can observe and correct micro
| errors. And the senses of scale and proportion are intact,
| unlike viewing on a 2D screen of arbitrary size at
| arbitrary distance.
|
| Even the simple POV of VR means that you get to see the
| techniques in-situ - e.g. seeing the expert's hands on your
| guitar, and how the technique is supposed to look from POV
| - rather than the standard teacher-student limitation of
| e.g. guitar, where the student sits opposite the teacher
| and sees a reversed image.
|
| But to be clear, my vision of how this would be game
| changing relies upon a level of interplay between hardware
| and software that is not yet developed. But I expect it
| will be, in time, because virtualising real world
| experiences is arguably the core goal of VR, and (correct
| me if I'm wrong) but nothing in the music tuition world has
| yet proven superior to having an extremely skilled one-on-
| one mentor who can personally guide your every step, "in
| person" - and this is what VR would seek to achieve here.
| karaterobot wrote:
| Working out with a VR headset on seems like a great way to
| get the whole thing disgusting. Hope I can put this $3500
| face computer through the washing machine.
| riversflow wrote:
| > virtual workouts
|
| Or real workouts. I want to be able to have floating text to
| read on my runs, and real time biometric data directly in my
| field of view rather than on my watch would be cool too.
| ENGNR wrote:
| I think the killer app will be remote work. The social
| interaction in VR chat is pretty good, if they can bring your
| work environment in with lots of monitors, and then share parts
| of it seamlessly and on demand but also have ample 100% focus
| time, I can see it being better than an office in some ways
| bnolsen wrote:
| I thought so too but it doesn't take much time for a headset
| to become uncomfortable. Taking one off and putting it back
| on is cumbersome.
| MichaelNolan wrote:
| For me, I think the killer app would have to be something that
| interacts with the real world. Watching movies, FaceTime, or
| browsing the internet won't be enough for me to ever buy this.
| But maybe if there was something like a home repair or car
| repair app that could in real time identify and inspect the
| objects, give me visual and audio instructions on how to
| perform the repair, that could be a killer app. But I'm not
| sure the AI/ML side is good enough yet to enable that.
| spogbiper wrote:
| The Microsoft Hololens demos included some examples of this.
| It certainly looked interesting
|
| example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIsjVaqdNpc
| vaylian wrote:
| Speaking of the MS Hololens: Is it still a thing and is
| there a community of 3rd-party developers around it? It
| showed a lot of promise when it was released.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Lets say I predict the same future for Apple's device.
| bikson wrote:
| Hololens are dead. Even their github is not updatel if i
| remember well 2 years.
| ephemeral-life wrote:
| They pivoted to military applications and I haven't seen
| much news about it. It looks like something out of the
| futuristic call of duty games. It looks super cool, but
| apparently soldiers didn't like it.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_Visual_Augment
| ati...
| spogbiper wrote:
| https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/13/23871859/us-army-
| microsof...
|
| Apparently they are still making them for military
| purposes
| yunwal wrote:
| I think even if it were good enough to place some static
| instructions over a non-disruptive part of your field of
| vision, with a pleasant way to display embedded images or
| video, and a hands free control mechanism, I would find that
| incredibly useful for DIY projects and stuff.
| GeekyBear wrote:
| Watching sports in 3D with spatial audio.
|
| > According to an exclusive report from The New York Post, NBA
| Commissioner Adam Silver "said the league is working with Apple
| to bring a tech-enhanced viewing experience" to its upcoming
| headset.
|
| When asked about it, he told the outlet: "We're working very
| closely with Apple."
|
| https://www.tomsguide.com/news/nba-games-could-be-apple-visi...
|
| If there is one group that has a track record for laying down
| piles of money for hardware like giant televisions and
| expensive streaming services, it's sports aficionados.
| dpflan wrote:
| Floor seats will be less desirable...or floor seat patrons
| are wearing Apple Vision/goggles for the AR (joking! but
| maybe serious)...
|
| I do agree, just watching a sporting event on a projector
| where the athletes are life-sized is excellent, on-field
| cameras already provide a better view of the game then any
| seat.
|
| Now make it more immersive, and the trick of immersion is
| very cool. Like The Sphere, that immersion is next level.
|
| Add sports-betting to the Vision experience, that is a great
| side-car app for this. (I am not pro-bet but see the usage).
| matwood wrote:
| Meta already has a deal with the nba for select games. Not
| sure what the usage is like.
| spogbiper wrote:
| With standard coverage of sports, they cut between cameras
| and zoom in/out, pan to follow the action etc. Even people
| attending the game will be watching big screens showing this
| content some of the time.
|
| I'm wondering how that translates to VR.. do they just
| teleport you around the arena? That seems like it would be a
| bit jarring if not altogether sickening.
| curiouscats wrote:
| It could offer a couple options. One being the main view is
| like you are there. You see the court in a huge view in
| your main view. Then, similar, but way better than in
| person, you have several big views off to the side, for
| replays, stats, maybe following a view of your favorite
| player... I would think they we have a way to make it so
| your view (switches as the action on the court switches to
| the other basket). That will have to be a good design but
| just the idea of something like teleporting from your seat
| with a great view of this half of the court to now having
| it on the other half.
|
| And for other sports even better I think. With say
| soccer/football and football (USA) you can have a big
| overview (like you are sitting at midfield) but then camera
| angles for closer view of the action...
|
| I think sports viewing could really be incredible. Figuring
| out exactly how to do it well will take awhile. But it
| seems to me the kind of thing Apple could do very well.
| danso wrote:
| For me it's movies. But the fact that Netflix and Amazon
| haven't updated their Quest apps in years -- nor has Meta
| bothered building its own movie streaming solution (e.g. making
| the Quest Browser compatible with streaming services) leads me
| to think that the active user base might be slim.
|
| Can't imagine doing work is the killer app, not while wearing a
| headset is more cumbersome than opening a laptop.
| spogbiper wrote:
| I'm not sure how Apple can make watching movies in VR that
| much better than they are already on the Quest series and
| other existing VR headsets. And as you noted it doesn't seem
| to be a popular use for those devices. Maybe the higher
| resolution on Apple's headset will win people over?
| GeekyBear wrote:
| > I'm not sure how Apple can make watching movies in VR
| that much better than they are
|
| Apple is already making it's own 3D content.
|
| For instance watching a concert shot in 3D with spatial
| audio may be something that people find compelling. Certain
| artists, for example Taylor Swift, have fans who are well
| known to be willing to spend a fortune to attend her shows
| in person with high end tickets running $750.
| spogbiper wrote:
| I tried some of the 3d concerts that Quest recorded a few
| years ago.. it's a neat trick but Apple will definitely
| need to do something different to make it compelling
| wombat-man wrote:
| I haven't tried them personally but I think current quest
| headsets still have visible pixels. The vision pro is Micro
| OLED with no visible pixels. So it should feel like
| watching an actual IRL screen.
| theshackleford wrote:
| It's an incredibly popular use for the quest, Amazon and
| Netflix just don't own the market, people are watching
| content elsewhere like big screen/vrchat/various vr
| players.
|
| Almost NOBODY uses the Netflix app because it's terrible,
| terrible software.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| Quest headsets are already pretty compelling for some use
| cases, but the tech still needs more advancement (at a
| reasonable price point) to go fully mainstream.
|
| For a lot of people, Beat Saber and similar games are a killer
| app for the Quest. It can be good for making exercise fun and
| accessible at the same time.
| baby wrote:
| Video games are the killer apps and Quest definitely found it.
|
| The other one that could be huge IMO is attending real-life
| events like sport, concerts, shows, etc.
| AlexandrB wrote:
| Both of these suffer from the fact that a good portion of the
| target audience is going to want to barf as soon as the
| camera moves. So games are limited in what kind of gameplay
| they can offer and real life events are stuck with either a
| fixed location or "jumping" from camera to camera.
| bnolsen wrote:
| Games like doom3 in VR are just freakin' awesome. blasting
| some monster coming up behind you by firing over the shoulder
| takes the cake.
| theshackleford wrote:
| Sure they have, it's funny how often this is repeated. It's
| anything social. It absolutely destroys every other technology
| for interacting with others over distance. There is nothing
| else like it and when the hardware catches up it will do a lot
| to shrink the distance you feel between those who live an ocean
| away from you.
| patapong wrote:
| I think we are now at a stage where VR hardware has surpassed
| software. Between this and the Quest 3, we have powerful,
| polished and consumer friendly devices, but beyond a few niches
| (fitness, simulation, gaming to some extent), there is nothing to
| convince users to put the headsets on.
|
| I am hoping we will see a lot of experimentation in the coming
| years, and I am excited for what the Apple ecosystem will bring
| to the table. That said, from what I have seen so far this does
| not seem to be a revolution compared to the current offerings,
| but an evolution on various fronts, without addressing the killer
| app question.
| pavlov wrote:
| It wouldn't be the first time that hardware gets ahead of
| software.
|
| In 1988-94, the CPUs available in desktop computers were
| substantially more advanced than the widely used operating
| systems. Windows 3 and Mac System 6/7 didn't support pre-
| emptive multitasking, memory protection, or many other features
| that define a modern OS.
|
| Maybe we'll look back at today's Quest and Vision Pro as
| similar transitional devices with one foot stuck in the old
| paradigm, running old-style software.
| pvg wrote:
| The Apple headset is maybe more akin to the expensive
| workstations of the time which did make fuller use of their
| CPU facilities but were neither priced nor aimed at
| consumers. The headset is not nearly as expensive (especially
| inflation adjusted) and is ostensibly a consumer device but
| it's current incarnation seems unlikely to have the kind of
| mass adoption for the analogy to work out.
| pavlov wrote:
| The fact that the Vision Pro today mostly runs legacy iPad
| and web software in 2D rectangles kind of makes it feel
| like Windows/386 which most people just used to run text
| mode MS-DOS programs inside GUI windows.
| cgk wrote:
| Visiting a certain urban area on the east coast, dm me on X
| if possible to meet up
| lysecret wrote:
| Im curious what do you have in mind related to fitness?
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| There's a bunch of VR games/apps that are notable for
| fitness. Beat Saber is the most well known one that's
| explicitly a game, Supernatural is maybe the most famous one
| that's framed as more of a fitness app/service.
|
| But other notable ones include Synth Riders, FitXR, OhShape,
| Pistol Whip, Thrill of the Fight, and (maybe) Gorilla Tag.
| And this list is far from exhaustive.
|
| VR is pretty good for fitness just because it can make
| exercising more interesting, comparable to sports without the
| need to coordinate with other people (and it's easy to do
| inside your house, if you have at least a 2m x 2m open
| space). Major downsides would be having that space available
| and sweat inside the headset.
| mr_toad wrote:
| I'd be too worried about sweat damage to use it for serious
| exercise.
| rpmisms wrote:
| They're built around that.
| jdietrich wrote:
| Meta (and many third-party manufacturers) offer a wipe-
| clean silicone facial interface designed for fitness-
| oriented users. The hardware isn't waterproof, but it's
| quite well protected and I'd be perfectly confident to
| work up a sweat. Quest has calorie tracking, can sync
| with the fitness tracking features on iOS and Android and
| can pair with heart rate monitors. Fitness is one of the
| key segments in VR, because fitness apps and fitness-
| oriented users have vastly above-average engagement and
| retention rates.
|
| https://www.meta.com/us/quest/accessories/quest-3-silicon
| e-f...
|
| https://www.meta.com/en-us/help/quest/articles/in-vr-
| experie...
| pteraspidomorph wrote:
| You don't need to worry with most headsets (don't know
| about AVP). I've been sweating in VR headsets for years
| and it never did any harm. I saw in the AVP reviews that
| it has a removable and swappable facial interface, so it
| should be easy to clean; the same is true of other modern
| headsets, and before that you had third party face covers
| or disposable absorbant stickers you could put on the
| facial interface to keep the sweat away.
| remedan wrote:
| Not gp but I have multiple friends who got the Quest just to
| play Beat Saber as a form of cardio exercise.
| rpmisms wrote:
| Beat Saber is an insanely good game, too. Easy to learn,
| but the high-level play is just nuts. There's even maps
| that teach you dances.
| patapong wrote:
| To add to the suggestions by the sibling comments, Eleven
| Table Tennis and Racket NX are both great racket-based games
| with multiplayer and a high skill ceilings. Depending on your
| personality I think applications like this are much more
| motivating than going to the gym as a workout.
| espositocode wrote:
| I'm surprised Apple dropped the ball on fitness here given
| they already have a fitness platform. Imagine rowing in VR
| and feeling like you're actually on the water. It would make
| exercising so much more motivating and interesting.
|
| It turned out the killer Apple Watch feature was fitness, and
| I don't see why it couldn't have been here.
| progbits wrote:
| I've used a rowing machine with a VR headset (I don't
| recall which model, it was a few years ago, but probably
| some Oculus).
|
| It was fun for a few minutes but not really usable for
| serious exercise:
|
| - It's heavy and annoying (and this apple product seems
| even bulkier and heavier). The cable situation is also not
| great, you need a lightweight cable and ceiling suspension
| to keep it out of the way, but this is solvable.
|
| - Exercise means you get sweaty. Can't wipe your brow and
| you have a wet headset on your face.
|
| - You can't see your body and maintain proper form. The VR
| environment itself is also distracting if you turn your
| head around to look at stuff moving there.
|
| I much prefer just to have my phone or tablet in fixed
| place in front of me to watch youtube or some movie.
| jdietrich wrote:
| _> I've used a rowing machine with a VR headset_
|
| I really don't think that's the best use-case for VR - if
| you're doing some kind of virtual rowing, a flat screen
| is going to offer most of the experience with none of the
| downsides. VR fitness is really about games that are fun
| in their own right and _happen_ to be physically active.
| There 's a big cohort of people who hate exercise and
| would never set foot in a gym, but who will happily spend
| an hour at their aerobic threshold because they're
| playing a fun game.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=291LZGxZS5Q
| rimeice wrote:
| Yeh I just can't see it working well. Surely it would be so
| uncomfortable to work up even a minor sweat with this thing
| strapped to your face.
| RajT88 wrote:
| > I think we are now at a stage where VR hardware has surpassed
| software.
|
| Totally agree. I'm waiting for a usable Virtual Desktop app to
| come out. All the ones I have tried which work on my cheap WMR
| headset fall short of having floating app windows in view.
|
| I guess there is one of those which works on Meta Quest, but
| not PC headsets. That's really what you need to be effective
| working in VR. Just like is mentioned the Apple headset
| supports.
| baby wrote:
| People like to say this but my friend just sent me a recording
| of "drop dead home invasion" with the Quest 3 and my jaw was on
| the floor. He says it's amazing too.
|
| I've also heard about players spending a lot of time in counter
| strike games like pavlov.
|
| At this point it seems like there's a TON of things to do in VR
| (and I'm gonna be honest, there were a ton of experiences too
| on the Quest 1 when I had it).
|
| I'm just waiting for more live shows and concerts that I can
| attend from the Quest personally.
| patapong wrote:
| Oh I agree - I loved my experience with Drop Dead Home
| Invasion, and there are a lot of amazing experiences overall.
| But, I do think that most of these have more potential as a
| "demo", that you do a few times but would not motivate you to
| use a headset every day, beyond a relatively small group of
| people.
|
| It is like VR is currently stuck being Kinect in terms of
| sales and stickiness, while Meta and Apple would both like it
| to be at least like the Wii, or ideally the iPad.
|
| Personally I have found social experiences to have the best
| long-term appeal (i.e. Racket NX or Drop Dead with friends),
| but even there I am not these apps have sufficient mainstream
| appeal.
| grumbel wrote:
| The major problem VR has isn't the games, but all the boring
| and basic stuff, like using 2D apps in VR or running multiple
| VR apps at the same time.
|
| The discontinued WMR Portal, essentially the Window's desktop
| in VR, was so far the only software that tried to be a full
| workspace in VR. But even that was missing a lot of important
| features and Microsoft gave up on it years ago and never made
| it accessible to non-Microsoft headsets. It's currently
| scheduled for removal from Windows.
|
| VisionPro seems very similar to WMRPortal so far, with a few
| key improvements like allowing apps do add 3D objects into a
| shared space.
| AlexandrB wrote:
| Underlying a lot of these discussions is the assumption that
| there is a future where this is an actually useful, mass-market
| device. I'm still not convinced this is true.
|
| For example, "killer apps/content" never arrived for 3D TVs and
| they have largely disappeared from the market. Same with
| various "waggling" input technologies like the Wiimote and
| Kinect. There were some _compelling_ uses, like Wii Sports, but
| these were pretty limited and many other uses of these in games
| was a case of Nintendo shoehorning the technology into the
| game.
|
| I think the best pessimist argument is the one offered by
| Folding Ideas in his metaverse video[1]: Text is really, really
| useful, and a virtual 3D space is not a good environment for
| either creating or consuming textual content.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiZhdpLXZ8Q
| Vegenoid wrote:
| I see headsets like this as a way to have multiple, large,
| monitors that go away as soon as you aren't using them. After
| having a big dual-monitor setup for years, about a year and a
| half ago I got rid of them and work with just my laptop's
| display. I do this so that my desk doesn't have to have
| monitors on it, and is more conducive to artistic work and
| mechanical tinkering.
|
| I don't miss multiple monitors so much, but I do often wish
| for a larger screen. Not enough to put one in my space,
| though. That's where my interest in the Vision Pro lies -
| simply a way to project large, high-fidelity, 2d screens.
| nkrisc wrote:
| I'd rather have small monitors than wear a headset while
| working.
|
| For less than this headset, I can buy an Ergotron arm and
| some monitors and have multiple large monitors that have
| zero footprint on my desk.
|
| No, I can't take my setup with me when I go somewhere, but
| I don't want to.
|
| I have a hard time seeing this become a mass market device.
| It'll have its adherents and enthusiasts, but personally
| find it difficult to imagine even _wanting_ one, let alone
| using it.
|
| But what do I know, I thought the iPad was goofy. Though I
| never did end up replacing my gen 2 iPad. Realized I didn't
| need it.
| jayd16 wrote:
| >Same with various "waggling" input technologies like the
| Wiimote and Kinect.
|
| Hasn't VR taken over waggle? I don't think you can say its
| disappeared when the VR install base is in the 10s of
| millions.
| dougmwne wrote:
| Yeah, the Quest seems to be the spiritual successor to Wii
| sports. It's the closest thing you can buy to that 2006
| experience. The long dream of wielding a lightsaber on the
| Wii was finally realized on the Quest, to a quite
| satisfactory level.
|
| And yet, from a gaming perspective, we still have to crack
| force feedback and natural locomotion before we have a
| holodeck. Maybe in 20 more years.
| quonn wrote:
| > there is nothing to convince users to put the headsets on.
|
| So the hardware is not good enough yet. It will be good enough
| when I basically don't care, just like I don't care with
| glasses.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Anything goggle-like is a non-starter for me. I'm not even
| interested in trying it. I don't even like glasses, and I
| _need_ corrective lenses to be able to see clearly (I wear
| contacts almost exclusively).
| jdietrich wrote:
| I'm not sure I've ever liked the term "killer app", because I
| don't think it's particularly useful in describing real user
| thinking and behaviour. There was a very long journey from
| VisiCalc and Wordstar to the modern-day ubiquity of office
| computing. Different user groups have complex, diverse and
| overlapping sets of needs and wants that can rarely be
| distilled into a single application. I'm more inclined to think
| in terms of Bezos's one-way doors - changes in user behaviour
| that are sufficiently compelling to be largely irreversible.
|
| I agree that progress has been slow in the consumer space and
| meaningful long-term adoption of VR has been confined to a few
| niches; that isn't necessarily an indictment of the long-term
| prospects for VR, because desktop computers spent much longer
| in that stage than most people remember.
|
| In enterprise, I think things are more advanced and some user
| groups have decisively gone through the one-way door for some
| applications. I think the best example is architecture. If
| you've done a couple of client presentations in VR, you just
| aren't going back to showing renders on a flat screen, because
| immersing the client in a physical space is _that_ powerful. It
| 's not just a sales tool, but a communications tool - clients
| can understand and respond to the environment intuitively and
| give much better feedback as a result.
|
| Industrial and clinical training is less clearly one-way, but I
| think we're very close in a lot of areas. AR is still less
| developed than VR, but I do think we're on the cusp of
| something significant - a sufficiently comfortable standalone
| AR headset with sufficiently high-quality passthrough can
| deliver training experiences that can't practically be
| replicated through other means.
|
| I think one of the most interesting areas of development is in
| psychiatry. It's still early days, but we're starting to see
| real, meaningful benefits in RCTs for VR-based therapy of
| disorders like phobia and PTSD. Some of the most compelling
| results have been in the very sickest patients - people with
| psychosis, who often find it impossible to engage with
| conventional psychotherapy.
|
| https://www.psy.ox.ac.uk/research/oxford-cognitive-approache...
|
| I don't think it's remotely likely that VR will ever replace
| flat screens, but I do think that VR is slowly growing into a
| niche but durable HCI platform. Tablets are a reasonable
| analogy - a lot of people see them as a failure, but they still
| sell in serious volume and they're often a much better form-
| factor for specific applications than either a phone or a
| laptop, especially in industry. Tablets didn't change the
| world, but nor are they likely to go away.
| treprinum wrote:
| I personally think MSFS 2020 and Automobilista 2 are killer VR
| apps. All (wannabe or pro) pilots could learn how to operate
| any given aircraft in MSFS and relive past glorious racing in
| A2 on current or historic tracks/cars. Senua and Alyx showed
| what is possible in gaming as well and why it's so much better
| than 2D. Elder Scrolls looks great in VR just the controllers
| make it a joke when fighting (too easy and weird). I still
| think 4k is too low and 8k will be needed to feel like a 1080p
| phone.
| IshKebab wrote:
| I think you've got it backwards. There are plenty of reasons
| you'd want to put on a VR headset if it weighed as much as a
| pair of glasses, had a 180 degree field of view and like 5x the
| resolution of current headsets.
|
| The reason the software doesn't exist is because compelling
| hardware doesn't exist for it to run on, so nobody bothers to
| write it.
|
| Apple is imagining this device will be used for productivity
| but it's still painful to actually wear for long periods. We're
| a long way from being limited by software instead of hardware.
| stcredzero wrote:
| _I think we are now at a stage where VR hardware has surpassed
| software._
|
| How about enabling AIs to create layouts of information on
| behalf of the user? Like, what if an AI could arrange all of
| your information for you in a scheme derived from Archy?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archy_(software)
| ahmedfromtunis wrote:
| I can't wait what the Vision Pro 4S-equivalent would look like
| and what capabilities it would have.
|
| I already imagine how people from 5 years in the future will be
| sharing photos of the current Vision Pro asking "Remember when
| this was the best VR headset hhh??"
|
| Sure, VR headsets existed before Apple's foray into that segment,
| but also did laptops, smartphones, tables computers, smart
| watches and bluetooth headsets.
|
| And if one to learn from history, all these products categories
| were significantly improved after Apple entered their respective
| markets.
| monkeynotes wrote:
| It's not VR though. The AR angle of this device is why it's
| compelling. VR is completely blind to your surroundings, Apple
| Pro could in principle make your public park look like Jurassic
| Park with full size dinosaurs etc. Blending our reality with an
| overlayed real time rendering is a massive benefit over
| straight VR.
| pests wrote:
| Its not true AR though. Its "record reality then display in
| VR". You're never looking at the world. Always through
| screens.
| losvedir wrote:
| That could just be an initial limitation of technology,
| though. The Apple Vision "spatial computing" line could
| move to glasses eventually.
|
| That said, I think the "you're looking at a digital
| reconstruction of the world" aspect pretty interesting
| since it means, in principle, everything can be changed as
| you'd like. Why not turn day to night, night to day,
| redecorate, block out ads on billboards, re-paint your
| house, hang paintings, add an extra window to your wall,
| etc?
| cyberax wrote:
| To completely reproduce the reality you need to be able
| to manipulate the phase of light of individual pixels.
| Basically, make a dynamic hologram.
|
| Without that, you'll be looking at an artificially
| "crisp" version of the world.
| ThatMedicIsASpy wrote:
| You're looking at reality with half of the colors your eyes
| can see, a reality with a limited field of view, a reality
| which looks much worse as the surroundings become darker.
| Nothing I've seen is impressive. I'm impressed by the lack
| of things more than what this thing actually offers.
| pests wrote:
| Yeah, but that's our reality we know and love.
|
| Why not just get a few projectors or more screens if you
| want digital environments?
| matwood wrote:
| It's clear from the commercials I saw that AR is Apple's
| vision. How long the hardware takes to match that vision is
| an open question.
| ahmedfromtunis wrote:
| It _is_ VR, though.
|
| Sure, Apple built the headset so that it mimics AR devices,
| but it definitely is not one itself.
|
| The technology to build an AR device with the capabilities
| that Apple boasted is simply not here yet. I'm sure that
| Apple top-talent is hard at work trying to break the barrier
| (if it didn't yet), but that'll be for a future version, just
| not this one.
| CharlesW wrote:
| When you say "AR devices" I think you specifically mean AR
| devices that do optical compositing vs. AVP's digital
| compositing, yes?
|
| > _I 'm sure that Apple top-talent is hard at work trying
| to break the barrier (if it didn't yet), but that'll be for
| a future version, just not this one._
|
| To me, it feels like AVP is the final nail in the coffin of
| the optical compositing evolutionary branch of HMDs. Even
| if it's someday possible to do well, devices would still
| need the same realtime subsystem necessary for digital
| compositing in order to do 3D mapping, object detection,
| environmental lighting integration, etc.
|
| I understand that in the short-term, camera sensors and
| displays don't exceed what the human eye can perceive, but
| those seem straightforward (if not easy) to address.
| crooked-v wrote:
| Same here. If there's some breakthrough they're not going
| to ignore it, but I would bet anything that current Apple
| far-forecasting plans for the "Vision 10" amount to
| current Vision Pro functionality in oversized wraparound
| shades, relying entirely on the camera passthrough for
| vision.
| OrvalWintermute wrote:
| I'm going to be much more buy these AFTER they announce the
| virtual slim & fit function on personas
| matsemann wrote:
| > _Still, there's something great about capturing photos and
| videos without using your hands, and that means connected
| eyewear._
|
| Does it? What about gopros or similar action cams, being used for
| over a decade, and for less than a tenth of the price?
| gfodor wrote:
| People don't wear those all day. A scenario where people have
| cameras on their face all day yields a totally different kind
| of ability to capture serendipitious moments, etc. That's not
| to say this value proposition is high enough to warrant it, or
| that we should expect this technology to actually succeed mass
| adoption, but it is not the same value proposition as what
| you're talking about.
| matsemann wrote:
| True, but the quote I'm discussing was in context of filming
| while being in the slopes.
| baby wrote:
| I think the rayban meta glasses are a better example
| dottjt wrote:
| The thing I don't get about spacial computing is: why?
|
| I feel like being able to see everything open at once would be
| incredibly distracting. I like how I can swipe between app
| screens on my desktop so that I'm only focusing on one app at a
| time.
|
| Of course I imagine there are some applications where it's
| useful, but to me it just feels like the Apple Vision Pro is just
| a very large screen and they haven't quite figured out what to do
| with it.
| joshstrange wrote:
| It's the same reason (some) people love multiple monitors and
| don't find it distracting. In fact, I feel extremely limited on
| just 1 or even 2 monitors. I'm hoping that the 4k virtual
| monitor in AVP will suffice and with windowing tools I think it
| will since it can be so much larger.
| jccalhoun wrote:
| I've been a skeptic of VR/AR since Occulus launched. I'm still
| skeptical after reading the reviews.
| tomjakubowski wrote:
| > I like how I can swipe between app screens on my desktop so
| that I'm only focusing on one app at a time.
|
| You can shove the app into a corner of your room, out of your
| view, and it will be there when you walk over to that corner
| later. That's part of the idea of "spatial computing" - if we
| can associate computer objects with real locations in space,
| maybe we can better harness spatial memory and stuff like that
| when we interact with them.
| zemo wrote:
| am I hearing things or at 6:28 does she call her dog "Browser"
| jkubicek wrote:
| Yeah, that's her dog's name. In addition to being a dog, he's
| also a published author: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-dumb-
| delightful-world-of-pe...
| devit wrote:
| It seems that a lot of basic information is missing in the
| review:
|
| 1. How does it compare to an high-end monitor for text
| editing/programming, web browsing, watching non-VR video, playing
| non-VR games? Is it better or not?
|
| 2. Is the resolution, latency, FoV and lack of color fringing
| good enough for it to be indistinguishable from reality in both
| passthrough and VR modes? If not, how exactly far is it?
|
| 3. Can you run VR games on a PC with multiple desktop GPUs and
| stream to it? How does it compare to current high-end and ultra-
| high-end VR headsets?
| robin_reala wrote:
| On number 3, definitely not.
| zeusk wrote:
| You can always make an app to stream H265 content from any
| device :)
|
| Windows even has support for IndirectDisplayDevices - I'm not
| sure how openXR or SteamVR handles those, however.
| robin_reala wrote:
| That gives you a flat video presumably, not a VR game.
| jhatax wrote:
| This review from TheVerge answers some of your questions:
| https://www.theverge.com/24054862/apple-vision-pro-review-vr...
|
| I recommend the video review as well. Seeing the video call
| between Nilay, Joanna, and MKB shows how much the tech has
| advanced but also how much it still needs to evolve to be at
| the level of FaceTime Video.
| MBCook wrote:
| I'm excited about the Vision Pro but I now see why some
| reviewers called the FaceTime "Personas" creepy.
|
| They're like talking paintings in the Haunted Mansion ride
| with bunch of blur and depth of field. It's way too weird.
| Joanna's looks a bit like she's been stuck as the replacement
| person in the Mona Lisa.
|
| A static picture of you or maybe your Memoji (remember
| those?) would be far preferable.
|
| I'm surprised Apple is shipping Personas.
| crooked-v wrote:
| I'd rather have just a VRChat avatar. Hook up the eye
| tracking and the mouth visemes and it'll probably be more
| likable than the Personas are.
| willis936 wrote:
| They've also shipped memojis.
|
| Facebook has also shipped meta.
|
| All the money in the world can't buy you an understanding
| of your market.
| layer8 wrote:
| They look like the 3D version of police drawings.
| whycome wrote:
| > "Apple sent zeiss lens inserts for reading glasses, but I
| just used my soft contacts and it was fine."
|
| lol what kind of review says that. It would be like someone
| who doesn't even use any kind of vision correction saying "I
| just used it without glasses and it was fine."
|
| (edit: the review is actually quite good. but that line was
| bizarre)
| layer8 wrote:
| Apple said that contact lenses might interfere with eye
| tracking (or maybe with the iris scanning). So it's a data
| point if he says he had no problems with soft contacts.
| billiam wrote:
| Nilay's video review is just fantastic-one of the best
| consumer technology reviews in written or multmedia form
| ever. Walt would be proud.
| jsheard wrote:
| For #3 the question is how you're going to _control_ the games,
| when the overwhelming majority of existing VR games are built
| for dedicated VR controllers rather than hand tracking.
|
| Streaming games from a PC to a standalone headset over WiFi has
| been proven to work with the Quest, but that has proper
| controllers.
| crooked-v wrote:
| I feel like the simple hacky solution there is to use Joycons
| connected directly to the PC for the buttons/thumbsticks.
| Attach the control inputs to whatever virtual tracking points
| the vOS app is supplying and voila.
| jsheard wrote:
| Joycons don't have absolute positioning, only relative,
| they're not good enough for VR. There is one way you
| _could_ do it, if you have a Valve Lighthouse setup then
| you could use Index or Vive controllers, but that would
| require manually calibrating the two independent tracking
| systems to align with each other and it 's not exactly a
| cheap solution if you don't already have the gear.
|
| It's a very niche setup, but a few people already use it in
| order to combine Lighthouse-based body trackers with a non-
| Lighthouse headset.
| crooked-v wrote:
| > Joycons don't have absolute positioning, only relative,
| they're not good enough for VR.
|
| The point would be that you don't use them for
| positioning at all, just buttons/thumbsticks. If you've
| using a Virtual Desktop-like app on the headset then it's
| already got positioning from the hand tracking.
| jsheard wrote:
| Oh right, I get you. Yeah that could kinda work but it's
| putting a lot of faith in the accuracy of the hand
| tracking.
|
| I suppose an ambitious implementation could try to fuse
| the hand tracking data with the IMU data from the Joycons
| for better resolution.
| ericmcer wrote:
| It does read well as a non-technical review though, where a
| user would only make note of those things if they were lacking.
| If the passthrough looked artificial and weird you would
| imagine that would have come up.
| joshstrange wrote:
| I know it's v1, I know it's expensive, I know it's limited but I
| cannot wait to get my hands on it this Friday.
|
| Even with just 1 4k floating screen I think it would be a winner
| for me but I'm also really excited to see what people come up
| with in VisionOS itself. I think for a while the sweet spot (for
| me) with be using a virtual monitor and a handful of VisionOS
| apps as well. Eventually I hope to be able to pull macOS windows
| out of a fixed box and arrange them wherever I want but I'm fully
| aware that might not be this year or even next year.
| dmix wrote:
| Its coming out on Friday?
| joshstrange wrote:
| Yes, February 2nd, this Friday.
| wombat-man wrote:
| Well it's QHD not 4k.
|
| I don't think you'll be able to pull windows out of the mac
| screen, but apps you might need are in vision OS anyway like
| safari or messages.
|
| I think my dream would be dual 4k monitors, or maybe a double
| wide?
| joshstrange wrote:
| Yeah, I think long-term I'd want a "confluence mode" (a la
| Parallels) or a large curved screen. Dual/Tri-screens would
| be fine too but I feel like we can do better with an infinite
| canvas (though "monitors" might make macOS apps play nicer).
| beanjuiceII wrote:
| what i am wondering about these devices is, my eyes get tired and
| strained from VR. I can only game on VR for limited amounts of
| time, I am a pretty fit person but i sweat a TON, de-fogging
| these devices has been a gigantic pain point.. does apple vision
| pro innovate in these areas ? I just felt the occulus devices as
| oppressive 30+ minutes of use.
| joshstrange wrote:
| > Q: What if I wear glasses?
|
| > A: The Vision Pro wasn't designed to be worn with glasses.
| Instead you have to order prescription Zeiss optical inserts for
| $99. The two monocle-looking pieces snap right into place.
|
| It's $99 for readers (non-prescription) and $149 for a
| prescription. Very odd that she would have gotten that detail
| wrong since it's so easy to check and it's been repeated so often
| in coverage of the AVP.
| jsheard wrote:
| Not to excuse that mistake but FWIW there are third party
| manufacturers which sell prescription lenses for various
| headsets for as little as $50, so there will probably be
| cheaper options once they start making them for the Vision Pro.
| The cost to actually manufacture the lenses depends on the
| strength of the prescription, and most VR lens manufacturers
| reflect that in their pricing, but Apple appears to be charging
| everyone the worst-case price and pocketing the difference when
| you order a weaker prescription.
| sgt wrote:
| Also, you might be able to take your previous pair of
| glasses, remove the lenses and grind until they fit. I did
| something similar to make my own prescription sunglasses
| (glued in the lenses).
| delfinom wrote:
| I await the day that Apple adds authentication chips to
| lenses and locks out 3rd parties.
|
| Basically it wouldn't be them to pass up a accessory sell
| opportunity.
| wharvle wrote:
| _Looks around desk at non-Apple monitor, keyboard, mouse,
| USB hub, and cables_
|
| Yeah, uh, they definitely always do that. It "wouldn't be
| them" to ever not.
|
| (Hell, the monitor even supports True Tone--and it didn't
| at first, that arrived in an OS update, from _Apple_ )
| csmiller wrote:
| Sounded in Gruber's review like they have something that
| sort of incidentally does that
| https://arc.net/l/quote/wgcwgxod
| miohtama wrote:
| Can you use Vision Pro with contact lenses?
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Sounds like only if you don't also need readers for close
| focus.
| dang wrote:
| Also: _Apple Vision Pro review: magic, until it 's not_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39190506 - Jan 2024 (226
| comments)
| aloer wrote:
| It is interesting how many here are excited about this for
| productive computer work. It's also what Apple advertises with.
|
| But what is the account situation like?
|
| For years I've been complaining that I can't easily use my
| private iPad with my company Mac because they have separate Apple
| IDs. Things like sidecar for a quick virtual whiteboard are
| basically impossible.
|
| AirPods have gotten better over the years where today I can
| freely switch between devices belonging to different Apple IDs
| with the same AirPods.
|
| But is the Vision Pro like that as well? It would seem weird to
| exclude the not-so-small group of people working from home but
| with company MacBooks
| ildjarn wrote:
| I think Apple want to discourage sharing to increase device
| sales. It's a great question though.
| wharvle wrote:
| Its wireless operation seems to depend on Hand Off in some
| capacity. Most companies probably wouldn't want to grant a
| personal device access to that on a work laptop, and I bet
| there are some thorny questions about what to do with
| incoming Hand Off data from multiple accounts.
| Fauntleroy wrote:
| The entire screen sharing setup they demo'd in the original
| Vision Pro demo reels always made me laugh. They've had years
| to get Sidecar right, and have failed miserably every time. How
| am I going to believe that they'll get wireless display
| transmission to work perfectly for this thing?
| mthoms wrote:
| I haven't used it in quite a while so I'm wondering what the
| current issues with Sidecar are?
| kemayo wrote:
| I haven't used the Vision Pro, so I can't say how well it
| works in practice... but with macOS 14 this year they redid
| their screen sharing app to, presumably, use whatever
| technology is underlying the Vision Pro display-sharing. It's
| really good. Vast improvement over the previous tech
| (presumably VNC?).
|
| Assuming the Vision Pro screen sharing works using the same
| stuff, I have high hopes.
| parhamn wrote:
| I have this issue in a consumer single tenant setting too. I
| couldn't figure out how to remove photo access from AppleTV.
|
| Ended up creating a new account that was part of my family.
| pmarreck wrote:
| If your company Mac is locked down to the point where you
| couldn't just create a separate account on it that is tied to
| your iCloud account, then it is also unlikely that they would
| allow you to hook up another device to their network and your
| work computer in order to have this convenience.
|
| (My partner is corpo; I'm startup, but have worked at corpos.
| No thanks.)
|
| Better to keep it all owned by the company, in my opinion, and
| have them issue you an iPad for this express purpose.
| aloer wrote:
| There's plenty of reasons why you would want to have a
| separate Apple ID for a company Mac that have nothing to do
| with overly restrictive permissions from IT.
|
| The main one being a complete separation of calls, messages,
| calendar, notes and reminders. For my own sake more than for
| my employers sake.
|
| And many employees with company phones already have that
| separation. iPhone and Mac is not that uncommon to provide
| for employees. But an iPad on top? I think that's gonna be
| much harder to find
|
| And edit: a Vision Pro on top...
| kccqzy wrote:
| Sure you can create a separate account on your company Mac.
| But there's no assurance that whatever work resources needed
| would be available on that second separate account.
|
| If your work is on the traditional model of perimeter
| protection and trusted intranet, a non-work device can't join
| the network as you have correctly pointed out. If your work
| is on the newer BeyondCorp style model, switching to a second
| account on your computer is going to invalidate the device
| trust needed to access work resources.
| vismwasm wrote:
| I thought I was the only one bothered by that! I'd love to use
| my private iPad with my work Macbook. And at least in my case
| preventing that definitely won't increase iPad sales: My
| company won't provide me a work iPad and even if it did it
| wouldn't work as there are no iCloud accounts attached to our
| work Macbooks.
|
| Locking you customers into your ecosystem? Fine, whatever. But
| even within the ecosystem restricting usage in such a way!?
|
| It's been said for years but the iPad could be so much more
| than a mere media consumption device if it weren't for short-
| term-profit driven design decisions.
|
| Maybe they do better with the Vision Pro.
| dwaite wrote:
| Basically the business and education group is about selling
| to businesses and schools, so they give them the tools they
| say they need. This means you wind up having configuration
| options which sound good to operations, but which break
| ecosystem support - and on BYOD break personal usage.
|
| Literally the only cloud drive product I know of which
| doesn't work on my corporate laptop is iCloud Drive, because
| the EMM gave a checkbox to set a flag. As a result, a huge
| portion of built-in collaborative features and apps just
| don't work. I have paid seats in other products only to
| regain functionality lost by that checkbox.
| travem wrote:
| > For years I've been complaining that I can't easily use my
| private iPad with my company Mac because they have separate
| Apple IDs.
|
| I have a similar complaint with my Apple Watch and my corporate
| issued laptop. When I am using my own computer (mac mini) I
| love how easy it is to use my watch to login, use it to approve
| actions, etc. However when it comes to my company laptop I have
| to type my password in repeatedly. It would be awesome if the
| watch could be linked to both IDs to make this much more
| seamless.
| miohtama wrote:
| Apple's solution is that your corporate should buy you a
| second watch.
| crooked-v wrote:
| On the upside, once somebody figures out how to use
| smartwatches for VR haptic feedback, nerds will have a
| reason to wear six watches.
| rideontime wrote:
| Four limbs, two nipples. Math checks out.
| kccqzy wrote:
| No security-conscious corporation is going to allow you to
| approve any actions with security implications using an Apple
| Watch secured by a four-digit passcode, rather than an
| alphanumeric password on a Mac.
| ehsankia wrote:
| > But is the Vision Pro like that as well?
|
| It's actually far worse. There's a single user and a "guest
| mode", but for AR/VR to work with, there's a calibration step,
| which means that the guest has to go through that step every
| single time they want to use the device. It might be fine for a
| real guest using it once, but it would be basically impossible
| to share the device with someone else. Having to setup the
| device every single time you use it sounds absolutely terrible.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Of course. They want to sell them locked to a user so that
| every employee or family member needs their own, and can't
| use the same one at work and at home.
| layer8 wrote:
| The only reason the guest mode exists is to incite the
| "guest" to also purchase an AVP after having experienced it.
| dwaite wrote:
| > For years I've been complaining that I can't easily use my
| private iPad with my company Mac because they have separate
| Apple IDs. Things like sidecar for a quick virtual whiteboard
| are basically impossible.
|
| This is kinda what Managed Apple IDs are for - the work 'owns'
| the Apple ID it puts into its management profile and can set
| policy. Apps write into a separate storage container which the
| company could remote wipe, without affecting the rest of your
| personal data. If they want to disable things like sidecar,
| they can do it.. for the corporate apps/accounts/web domains.
|
| I'd' generally assume the multi-user aspect is worse (because
| face shields and prescriptive inserts) so generalized multi-
| account is pretty low on the priority list.
| 38 wrote:
| > AirPods have gotten better over the years where today I can
| freely switch between devices belonging to different Apple IDs
| with the same AirPods.
|
| What the fuck. The fact that an apple ID is even involved is
| absurd. Should be able to just Bluetooth to any device.
| dwaite wrote:
| You can just bluetooth to any device.
|
| However, pairing an audio device is an exchange of settings
| and encryption keys, and Apple will sync that pairing that to
| your entire account. Hold your AirPods near your Phone and
| tap the button to create the initial pairing, and they start
| working with your Mac and Apple TV.
| 38 wrote:
| that doesn't explain the previous status quo, which appears
| to be that previous (and maybe current) incarnations cant
| Bluetooth pair without an apple ID.
| crooked-v wrote:
| You can.
|
| The "freely switch" here is referring to the W-chip multi-
| device support that will on the fly switch between any number
| of Apple devices based on what's actively being used at the
| time, without needing to do any manual connection stuff.
|
| Other non-proprietary Bluetooth devices will generally do 2
| devices at most, and getting that to work right with
| microphone input settings can be kind of a nightmare.
| threeseed wrote:
| > But what is the account situation like?
|
| These devices are going to have your sweat, makeup, odours etc
| on them.
|
| So you're really not going to want to share a device with
| anyone else.
| skeaker wrote:
| Sure you will. Plenty of families share a single VR headset.
| jsheard wrote:
| The facial interfaces are just held on with magnets, so it's
| not unrealistic to think that people might swap them out
| regularly depending on who's using it. The interface is sized
| for the user so hygiene aside you'd probably want to swap it
| for a different one anyway.
|
| Unfortunately Apple is charging $200 per extra facial
| interfaces though.
| astrange wrote:
| The part that touches you comes off and is personally fitted
| anyway, so you just don't share that.
| oflannabhra wrote:
| I really like Joanna Stern, and how she approaches reviews like
| this. I've watched her review, The Verge's, and MKBHD's unboxing
| video.
|
| However, the best review I've found that actually transmits what
| is possible and what it is like to use is Brian Tong's 55 minute
| review video: https://youtu.be/GkPw6ScHyb4
|
| I'm not familiar with him, but unlike other reviews I've seen, he
| spends less time evaluating or summarizing, and more time trying
| to actually use the device. I didn't even realize that you can
| seamlessly use your Mac to control your visionOS apps, for
| example.
| npunt wrote:
| Good review. Most interesting part was at 43:00 discussing the
| ergonomics and weight, which is the real question for everyone
| hoping to make this a daily driver.
|
| He said he could wear it _45 mins_ before needing to take it
| off, that it was overstimulating so you need to slow down how
| quickly you use apps and move things on screen, and that
| gestures also were fatiguing. You could tell he was trying to
| be fair but positive.
|
| Headsets just haven't cracked this nut yet, and tho tech may
| advance somewhat, they may be limitations inherent to the form
| factor. Even if it gets really light weight, the issues of
| overstimulation, headaches, and the amount of neck movement
| implied may keep these products in a niche. (I say this as
| someone super excited about AVP)
|
| For everyone used to using their computers all day long wanting
| to do it in a headset, don't throw your macbooks away just yet.
| crooked-v wrote:
| I've regularly done 2+ hours of light activity (e.g. mini
| golf, social hangouts) with my Quest 3 without issues, though
| I will note this is with a third-party head strap
| specifically designed to be way more ergonomic and
| comfortable than anything first-party from Meta or Apple [1].
|
| [1]: https://www.bobovr.com/products/bobovr-m3-pro
|
| A lot of the physical downsides here are basically self-
| inflicted by companies trying really hard to hide the "nerd
| factor" necessary for comfort, to the detriment of the actual
| user experience.
| npunt wrote:
| Yeah industrial design and ergonomics tend not to have the
| same goals. Personally I was able to use a Quest 2 for ~1hr
| without too much issue, but it's not something I'd want to
| do on the regular.
|
| The big product marketing question is what niche do
| headsets fit in, and thus whats the ideal single session
| and daily usage goal for a headset?
|
| If it's about replacing laptops or another high usage
| scenario, that's a pretty high bar, definitely too high for
| the next 1-2yrs. I imagine some people at Apple wore dummy
| see-through goggle ergo tester units of varying weights
| around all day to get at these numbers :) Wonder what they
| came back with. Even still, that only gets at weight vs the
| perceptual ergonomics, skin-feel, etc.
|
| The issue I see with headsets is that there may not be a
| lot of improvement possible without compromising durability
| or other factors necessary when going to market. E.g. what
| if they can't get it below ~400g (making AVP ~40% lighter),
| but to make the headset comfortable for most people for the
| usage scenario that makes them mass market (e.g. 2h+
| sessions daily) requires ~250-300g?
| ijhuygft776 wrote:
| Why is it so expensive? is it that much better than Meta's
| devices?
| KolmogorovComp wrote:
| For me the two takeways from the various reviews are that:
|
| - The Vision Pro is the best VR set that can be done today, with
| massive investment (rumoured 5e9 USD) and competent staff, and
| hefty price. It is miles ahead of the competition.
|
| - It's still not enough for most if any practical use, apart from
| films maybe. The technical requirements for a _really_ useful VR
| are still largely out-of-reach, and will be for at least the next
| 5-10 years.
| GeorgeTirebiter wrote:
| what does "5md USD" mean? I assume USD = US Dollars but "5md" ?
|
| Thank you.
| KolmogorovComp wrote:
| Oops, fixed. I meant 5 billions (5e9), USD is indeed US
| Dollars.
| Bluecobra wrote:
| My guess is that the OP meant to say "5bn USD". I frequently
| see billion abbreviated to "bn" in UK newspapers such as the
| Financial Times.
| spaer wrote:
| Maybe milliard (billion)
| guybedo wrote:
| probably billions. "md" would be "milliard" and "milliard" is
| french for billions.
| ghc wrote:
| I was confused as well, so I checked various European
| languages for what their word for billion is. I suspect they
| are french, using an abbreviation for milliard, the French
| word for billion.
| H8crilA wrote:
| Not just French, also for example German and Polish.
|
| Milion, Miliard, Bilion, Biliard = Million, Billion,
| Trillion, Quadrillion
|
| (neither are justified because neither start at the
| beginning, that is at a thousand :) )
| wilg wrote:
| Except its the worst VR set if you want to play games.
| kevinak wrote:
| It really isn't 'miles' ahead of the competition. If anything
| it is way behind. For example, look at Varjo:
| https://varjo.com/products/xr-4/
| Eric_WVGG wrote:
| is that page supposed to scroll or have clickable links or
| basically anything?
| kevinak wrote:
| Yes? Not seeing any issues on Safari, Chrome or Firefox on
| MacOS. Maybe you have some extension that's acting up?
| crooked-v wrote:
| The XR-4 is already 665g as a tethered headset. I imagine it
| would be (literally) painfully heavy as a standalone device.
| testmasterflex wrote:
| Just give me MacOS in goggles so I can work on a plane with a
| wireless keyboard and intermittently watch something. I could pay
| 3k for that.
| pedalpete wrote:
| I'd like to understand how this compares to something like XReal
| with better UX (I'm assuming the software for XReal isn't great,
| I've never tried it).
| llm_nerd wrote:
| The most disappointing aspect to the reviews I've seen is that
| the cameras -- the things that facilitate the AR -- are not
| great. They're good, but far from great. In this the example
| video of a low light situation is terribly noisy, and she
| complains that she can't read small print because of pixelation.
| Given that the display itself is very high resolution, this has
| to fall on subpar cameras.
|
| And the battery life is brutal. Extremely first generation.
| kplex wrote:
| Have been waiting on Norman Chans review over at Tested, he's
| been a consistent and reliable reviewer of VR/AR for years now.
| That plus Adam Savage++
| andy_ppp wrote:
| I haven't heard much about motion sickness yet, how long can we
| expect to be in AR before this happens?
| throwaway71271 wrote:
| The complexity of our systems has increased a lot, and I dont
| think the tooling has caught up yet.
|
| Its sad that the fastest thing we have now is
| log.Printf("asdasdf") and grep the logs on the pod :)
|
| Debugging multithreaded application is as difficult as it was 50
| years ago, maybe VR debuggers will allow us to debug complex
| interconnected systems or models in a more intuitive environment.
|
| Also I think having hundreds of chats with some llms to
| investigate specific part of the code/docs fits very nicely with
| infinite screen space, and using your eyes to focus instead of
| alt+tabbing
|
| I have my fingers crossed for some insane tooling advancements in
| the next years.
|
| Does anyone know of any re-inventing the IDE in VR projects that
| are worth following?
| jackschultz wrote:
| How much talk is there about how these headsets are going to be
| used to talk to AI models? I don't see comments about that, but
| that's what I imagine they'll be used for. Models will be
| quicker, more efficient, and be able to capture audio, and able
| to be run on self owned GPUs. Take a google thing, throw a fake
| looking person and some type of voice on top and presto, you're
| talking to models.
|
| I feel like that _has_ to be why all major companies are pushing
| hard on vision products like this. They know AI is coming and
| need to be there first so their glasses are efficient and adopted
| where models will be easy additions.
| perryizgr8 wrote:
| Is the vision pro like iphone or like mac when it comes to device
| ownership? Can you be root on the system? Can you compile and run
| programs on it? Or do all apps have to be installed via an app
| store?
| arctac wrote:
| 7x the price of Quest 3 which does exactly the same, no thank
| you.
| stephc_int13 wrote:
| I quite often have buyer impulse when seeing the newest high-end
| Apple products. Even if I don't like the brand monopoly, even if
| I find their design language mostly boring and bland, there is
| often something weirdly appealing in their marketing.
|
| But in this case, I would probably try this device during half a
| day if someone gave it to me, but I feel zero desire to own or
| use one.
|
| It does not enable anything that I can't do better with a real
| computer, a TV or a smartphone.
| hoistbypetard wrote:
| I find it interesting that they include the archive.ph link on
| the front page.
|
| Also, it's hard not to enjoy any review that includes the word
| "bejeezus."
|
| The thing I most want to know about this device that went totally
| unmentioned is:
|
| how sharp is the text? Or, how many windows of code can I
| comfortably see at once and is it more or less than my
| 30-something-inch monitor?
|
| TBH, that's what will sway me one way or the other on this... my
| current monitor might have been $3500 nearly 20 years ago. It was
| $1000+ when I bought it in 2012. If this (or one of its near term
| successors) could replace it in a way that is better, I'm kind of
| interested.
| rubyn00bie wrote:
| It's definitely a bit niche, given the price of the Vision Pro,
| but I really think Apple needs to invest in first-party "gaming"
| simulators along with allowing the corresponding hardware support
| to easily connect to it (likely via a Mac or dock).
|
| From my experience with VR, the only thing I've been absolutely
| and definitively blown away by was sim racing. Before getting a
| PSVR2 I had played roughly 70 hours of Gran Turismo 7, now I'm at
| over 500 hours in the five months I've had a PSVR2. I want to buy
| a PC-compatible headset to get access to better pedals, wheels,
| and simulators (games) than I can get on the PS5. It's quite easy
| to sink many thousands of dollars into the experience. I believe
| the margin requirements are there for Apple (eventually) when
| considering the potential for professional training solutions.
|
| But! Without taking ownership of _something_ , creating some IP
| (intellectual property) to provide a killer app, and inspire
| other segments, they're going to be hard pressed to make inroads
| and get this to scale.
| zmmmmm wrote:
| Lots of surprises on the downside from all the reviews. Pass
| through much more limited in quality with motion blur,
| pixelation, distortions, limited color and dynamic range. The eye
| tracking driven input method which was seen as holy grail turns
| out to be annoying after a while because people don't naturally
| always look at what they want to click on. Personas straight up
| aren't ready. The lack of AR features is the biggest surprise.
| They tried hard to avoid it being a VR device but all the actual
| high quality experiences, especially the ones people are
| impressed by are the VR ones.
|
| For me the biggest issue though is that it can't fulfil it's
| primary use cases:
|
| Want it for productivity? it can't run MacOS applications and if
| you want to use your actual Mac it can't do multiple monitors.
|
| Want it for entertainment? people want to enjoy photos, videos,
| movies _with other people_ and it can 't include them. Even if
| they have a Vision Pro, I haven't yet seen any sign of ability
| for multiple people to do these things together.
|
| All up, it all seems far more immature and dev-kit stage than I
| was expecting.
| crooked-v wrote:
| > I haven't yet seen any sign of ability for multiple people to
| do these things together.
|
| The reviews haven't mentioned it, but SharePlay [1] is OS-level
| functionality and the press releases mention using it with
| movies, music, and games.
|
| [1]: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2023/10087/
| MuffinFlavored wrote:
| I wonder given all this... what the expectations are at Apple
| from a higher up/board/executive standpoint are
|
| Most of Apple offerings are good:
|
| Watch
|
| iPad
|
| Mac
|
| iPhone
|
| services
|
| Are they really expecting this to just be a hard problem
| initially that they get better at over time? When is the last
| time they launched a "so so" product?
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| Tim Apple reportedly overrode the design team on launching it
| prematurely relative to their typical standards in order to
| enter the market and begin iterating before waiting too long.
| It's the first new product category made under his leadership
| and he's eyeing retirement, as context.
|
| Btw, don't forget visionOS 2.0 is just 18 weeks away.
| Wingy wrote:
| The watch is a new product category under his leadership
| isn't it?
| BOOSTERHIDROGEN wrote:
| Watch still under Steve, put it in other way, it's last
| product under his supervision.
| george_perez wrote:
| Doesn't look like it.
|
| > Ive began dreaming about an Apple watch just after CEO
| Steve Jobs' death in October 2011. He soon brought the
| idea to Dye and a small group of others in the design
| studio.
|
| https://www.wired.com/2015/04/the-apple-watch/
| pulisse wrote:
| AirPods, too.
| zmmmmm wrote:
| > It's the first new product category made under his
| leadership and he's eyeing retirement, as context
|
| I've been wondering how much this is part of the context
| here. He may feel some pressure that he hasn't really
| launched a new _major_ product category from scratch in all
| his time as CEO and if this has been running 10 years as a
| project now, that it would be a blemish on his legacy to
| not get it out the door before he leaves. Perhaps without
| him there it would even be binned which would be even more
| pressure to deliver it.
|
| Contrary to all that he really seems a bit ambivalent about
| the device himself, having never allowed himself to be seen
| publicly using it.
| epolanski wrote:
| The first two iWatches were borderline pointless/bad.
|
| The first two iPhones weren't as innovative as they make
| them,just more polished than other symbians with cameras and
| internet, it took off with apps really in third iteration.
|
| I think visionpro has lots of opportunities in the next
| iterations, early users will provide feedback this gen.
| checkyoursudo wrote:
| Are current watches good? I genuinely don't know and am
| interested. I hadn't gotten one because I was an early
| iPhone adopter (Gen 1), but haven't been willing to be an
| early adopter since then. But I would like a watch, if they
| are good now.
| freeone3000 wrote:
| If you want a very small cell phone on your wrist, they
| are good at that. I'm nit sure what they're good _for_ ,
| but they can be that.
| TillE wrote:
| > The first two iPhones weren't as innovative as they make
| them
|
| Yes they were. Multi-touch in particular was a revelation.
| Making a big screen with one physical button is a simple
| idea, but making it work _well_ was the hard part that
| nobody else had figured out.
|
| Those first iPhones were dog slow, sure, but they
| absolutely defined how smartphones work ever since.
| electroly wrote:
| Apple Maps falls in that category. Maps was bad when it came
| out but after years of effort (and a lot of money), it's
| pretty good now. That was no small feat given how good Google
| Maps already was when Apple Maps started.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| In my area (Long Island), Apple Maps works great (better
| than Google Maps). I hear that it falls down, in rural
| areas, though.
| Twisell wrote:
| The watch first 1-3 generations were clearly "so so".
| outofpaper wrote:
| Newton and to a much much lesser extent the first iPod and
| iPhone. But really the Newton while a product that I love and
| a super profitable line was the last time Apple created
| something that had so many rough edges.
| lambdasquirrel wrote:
| So-so in what way? This product is clearly a toy. Which is to
| say that it is _genuinely_ new. Maybe like how the Apple II
| was when it first came out. PCs were quite expensive back
| then too, if I remember correctly. This really will take
| time. All the important technological things were toys before
| they became tools.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| The first iPhone was pretty terrible. I couldn't get my
| Marketing peers to take it seriously (which they came to
| regret).
|
| The first Watch was awful. I love my Series 8.
|
| Don't get me started on the first Mac...
| JacobThreeThree wrote:
| >The eye tracking driven input method which was seen as holy
| grail turns out to be annoying after a while because people
| don't naturally always look at what they want to click on.
|
| This has always been the case and this technology has been
| around for a while. I'm surprised Apple would have chosen to
| use it for user input.
| deadbabe wrote:
| It's my understanding that eye tracking isn't great as an input
| method, it should be used more for stuff like rendering or NPC
| interactions.
| risho wrote:
| i generally agree with the sentiment of this post. it does
| appear to be a beta/dev kit. i will say that the productivity
| criticism is a BIT unfair. It may be the case that you can only
| have 1 MACOS display, but you can have many non macos apps
| running right alongside the 1 macos display. You could have
| your macos display doing things that only macos can do, and
| then run the vision pro version of discord or teams or safari
| or whatever else you would use that has an ipad/vision version
| as floating windows separate from the macos display.
| throwanem wrote:
| > Living room a stress-inducing mess? Go full virtual reality
|
| Or, I dunno. Clean the living room? You can even watch a movie
| while you do that!
| genman wrote:
| The question is - can you run Linux on it?
| subsubzero wrote:
| I could see this taking the place of a TV screen in some
| households, (smaller ones of course unless you want to spend $15k
| for the whole family to all watch TV in a living room!). I think
| a killer feature for this is to pair it with a treadmill and
| project trails and famous city scapes while you run. That last
| bit for me might be a reason to buy it as if its winter and icy
| where you live running on the thread mill is a forced indoor
| exercise.
| Erratic6576 wrote:
| I'm looking forward to learning about geography from a huge
| atlas
| graypegg wrote:
| The weight would be a major problem there, and needs to be
| improved before they can honestly pitch cardio with it on.
| GlickWick wrote:
| With a good head strap i have no issues pushing 165 bpm for
| 45 minutes or so on the Quest 3. It works well for cardio
| already.
|
| Honestly headset weight is more of an issue for 4+ hour
| working sessions than exercise.
| hendersoon wrote:
| Apple failed to make a compelling argument for purchasing their
| device. Where's the "killer app"? The original iPhone was a
| better _phone_ , and a general computing device with a web
| browser to boot.
|
| Is it to watch movies on a 100" screen on an airplane? The xReal
| weighs 75 grams and does that for four hundred dollars. It has a
| HDMI port too, so I can play my steam deck or switch.
|
| Where are the cool AR apps? Where is the contextual data popping
| up as I drive my car? None of that exists!
| layer8 wrote:
| I found the details interesting, like how she couldn't really see
| if pepper was coming out of the pepper mill. Or the cooking app
| recommending not to actually wear the AVP during cooking due to
| (presumably) safety reasons.
|
| The spatially placed timers are one of the most compelling use
| cases I've seen so far, but I wouldn't want to wear 1.3+ pound
| goggles plus battery for that.
| karim79 wrote:
| I'm a bit puzzled as to why they did not include at least one
| HDMI output. Given that it has a fairly impressive hardware spec,
| it's not hard to imagine someone buying this as a device which
| could be an face computer when desired, and also for it to double
| as something like a Mac Mini.
|
| I'm sure it supports Airplay, but being able to plug it in to a
| real monitor with a wire, wouldn't that make the purchase a bit
| more appealing?
| phelm wrote:
| Seems fun that most of the huge engineering effort seems to have
| gone into making the device feel as if its not there,
| Passthrough, Persona, EyeSight, and most of the downsides in the
| review comes from the fact that the device is still there.
|
| The device is a simulation of the dream device that can overlay
| UI on top of your vision without you looking any different to
| those around you, I wonder how far away that is.
| mattigames wrote:
| I don't think it needs to be 100% not-there to reach full
| popularity, in the shape of glasses or a hat would be good
| enough, or perhaps something you can put on top of your regular
| glasses.
| cortexa4 wrote:
| One of the most mind-blowing use cases of spatial computing was
| using the Vision Pro while cooking. You could create timers for
| different activities and place them in the locality of the object
| that you are tracking. This way you can track the recipe
| throughout its different stages with these virtual timers over
| different pots, pans, ovens etc.
| wkirby wrote:
| This seems like a prank. I simply cannot fathom wanting this even
| if it were free --- and I own and have used multiple VR headsets.
| The idea that I'd want to live any significant portion of my day
| in one seems like absolutely madness.
| oglop wrote:
| I thought my watch was overpriced and sold under a lie, which
| then cost me serious money to basically buy the same product
| again. It works fine, but I will always hate it since I had to
| buy it twice.
|
| The Macbook went from an amazing piece of tech to a useless piece
| of RSI inducing crap. You have to buy from system 76 to get
| anything like the old macbooks.
|
| The phone, well, I was forced into an upgrade this year (as part
| of the watch fiasco above) and was amazed how underwhelmed I was.
| I went from an X to a 15 and as far as I can tell, the camera is
| better and it's a little lighter. That's not enough for the money
| I had to shell out.
|
| All in all, the company has seemed to be going downhill to me for
| at least 5-8 years. But, I'm just one consumer of many. Other
| people seem very amazed by these things which just do nothing for
| me.
| aenis wrote:
| It'll be a flop. Noone with a pretty face would be caught dead
| wearing this, and fashion trends are set by pretty people. Its
| creepy.
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