[HN Gopher] Higher Order Derivatives of Transforms
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       Higher Order Derivatives of Transforms
        
       Author : nosferalatu123
       Score  : 72 points
       Date   : 2024-01-29 06:44 UTC (16 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (nosferalatu.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (nosferalatu.com)
        
       | shiandow wrote:
       | Don't think I'll ever get used to stars in LaTeX when someone
       | means simple multiplication.
       | 
       | The preceding blog post[1] seems to contain the more interesting
       | parts though. This is just (d/dt)^n e^At x = A^n e^At x, which is
       | kind of obvious from the definition of e^At.
       | 
       | [1]: https://nosferalatu.com/DerivativesLogarithmsTransforms.html
        
         | cycomanic wrote:
         | The article (even more the previous article) really misses a
         | reference to matrix exponentials [1]. Everything about X(t) =
         | X^t becomes a bit clearer. Also I think using the term
         | transform is a bit loose here. IIRC Matrix exponentials only
         | work with linear transforms that are represented by a square
         | matrix.
         | 
         | [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_exponential
        
       | magicalhippo wrote:
       | The previous post in the series[1], helpfully linked to in the
       | introduction, has a lot more details of the underlying concepts.
       | 
       | It also set my mind wandering to the not-technically-related
       | functional derivatives[2], where you vary the function slightly
       | rather than the argument value.
       | 
       | I'm not great at math, but I do love this what-if exploration you
       | can do in math. Due to the various proofs underlying it all it
       | seems sometimes more fruitful than similar exploration in
       | programming, where one might quickly stumble upon obscure
       | compiler errors or similar obstacles.
       | 
       | [1]: https://nosferalatu.com/DerivativesLogarithmsTransforms.html
       | 
       | [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_derivative
        
         | abhgh wrote:
         | If you're looking for interesting derivative-adjacent ideas, I
         | would also recommend Clarke derivatives [1]. They occasionally
         | show up in ML papers, e.g., [2], [3]. Unrelated bu tangential,
         | another place where you need derivatives but don't have access
         | to them (standard or otherwise) is in the area of black-box
         | optimization. Within this area, Bayesian Optimization
         | (BayesOpt) has picked up quite a bit, which I've successfully
         | used quite a bit in my work - I've an introduction here [4].
         | There is also a good book available online for free on the
         | topic [5].
         | 
         | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke_generalized_derivative
         | 
         | [2]
         | https://proceedings.neurips.cc/paper/2021/file/70afbf2259b44...
         | 
         | [3] http://proceedings.mlr.press/v202/lee23p/lee23p.pdf
         | 
         | [4] https://blog.quipu-strands.com/bayesopt_1_key_ideas_GPs
         | 
         | [5] https://bayesoptbook.com/
        
       | c32c33429009ed6 wrote:
       | What is meant by a Transform in this context? The author doesn't
       | seem to give a definition.
        
         | magicalhippo wrote:
         | They give a brief statement in their previous post (see link at
         | start of post), essentially it's a linear transformation also
         | known as linear map[1].
         | 
         | [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_map
        
           | c32c33429009ed6 wrote:
           | I read their previous post, and nowhere do they explicitly
           | say "a transform is a...". One might assume that it is indeed
           | a linear transformation, as you suggest, but it shouldn't be
           | up to the reader to do detective work just to understand the
           | objects the author is talking about.
        
             | magicalhippo wrote:
             | What I meant was that based on what they said in their
             | previous post ("[g]iven a transform T and a point x, we can
             | find the transformed point with T*x") and the interactive
             | graphics, I felt certain they meant a linear map.
             | 
             | I agree it's sloppy, at least a reference or something
             | should be given if one doesn't want to spend time on the
             | full definition.
        
               | makerdiety wrote:
               | Maybe the author could have used a more general notion,
               | then, if omission and brevity were going to be present?
               | Like, instead of a linear map or transform, he could have
               | said an operator or something.
               | 
               | I don't know what is the general form of a transform or
               | linear map. I think it's something like operator, though.
        
               | magicalhippo wrote:
               | True, however I don't know how well versed the author is.
               | Back in my late teens when I was deep into 3D graphics
               | and ray tracing, I knew a lot about that specific math
               | but not much beyond it. To me, "transform" was crystal
               | clear to mean some kind of linear transform, and I hadn't
               | yet learned of the more general operator notion[1].
               | 
               | So I can see myself writing something similar thinking it
               | was clear.
               | 
               | [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operator_(mathematics)
        
         | dimatura wrote:
         | In robotics, it's pretty widely used to refer to a 6-degree of
         | freedom pose or relative pose in space, for example it's widely
         | used in ROS, a de facto standard https://docs.ros.org/en/melodi
         | c/api/geometry_msgs/html/msg/T.... Not sure if there they're
         | just using it as an example in the graphics.
        
         | nosferalatu123 wrote:
         | I meant a "transform" as a linear map. I'm using the word as it
         | is used in computer graphics (my background), so it's something
         | that translates, rotates, scales, etc. other things (such as
         | points). That is often a 3x3 or 4x4 matrix, although it can
         | also be a vec3 translation and a quaternion, or just a
         | quaternion. I think "Transform" is clear in the context of
         | computer graphics, but I see what you mean about it being
         | vaguely defined in my blog post.
        
       | dimatura wrote:
       | I like this summary of Lie theory in the context of robotics:
       | https://arxiv.org/pdf/1812.01537.pdf
        
         | tnecniv wrote:
         | I like this tutorial because it doesn't get too bogged down in
         | abstractions and has numerous examples. When I've tried to
         | learn differential geometry in the past, standard texts get
         | very abstract very quickly and it's hard for me to envision
         | what the generalization is doing for me.
        
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