[HN Gopher] I'm sorry, but omnidirectional treadmills can't work...
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I'm sorry, but omnidirectional treadmills can't work and here's why
Author : modeless
Score : 48 points
Date : 2024-01-28 10:09 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (james.darpinian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (james.darpinian.com)
| 2024throwaway wrote:
| I think this take is correct and lacking a "jacking in" to your
| neural cortex a la Neuromancer or The Matrix, true VR will remain
| a pipe dream.
| metadat wrote:
| As stated in TFA, what if the holodeck space were larger, e.g.
| 5-20 meters? The centering adjustments can then take place
| gradually (unless you flat out sprint straight like Usaine Bolt).
| It kind of irks me this is a valid solution which is half glossed
| over to make room for a clickbait headline.
|
| This could ostensibly function as a thorough bypass to compensate
| for the sensitivity of the human vestibular system, at the cost
| of TAM (Total Addressable Market, due to size constraints).
|
| Personally I'd be up for going to a Lazr-Quest like place to
| experience a real-ish holodeck. Would make for a great
| destination for a venue in SF.
|
| --
|
| Related submission from yesterday:
|
| _Disney unveils the HoloTile floor_
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39156444 (288 comments)
|
| And the direct link to the goods:
| https://youtu.be/68YMEmaF0rs?t=203
| oatmeal1 wrote:
| Then you have to find someone to make/modify your favorite
| action game that's compatible with this, which is no easy task
| in and of itself. Ladders and clambering you experience in game
| will still be a matter of pushing a button on the controller in
| your hand.
| metadat wrote:
| This is a problem for once the thing is working ;)
|
| No doubt there'll be other constraints coming. This isn't
| _The Ultimate Solution_ , rather a significant incremental
| improvement over the stated hurdles with existing designs
| optimized and marketed towards fitting into 3'x3' space in
| front of your television, bed, or desk.
| NickM wrote:
| The article addresses this exact question.
| tempestn wrote:
| Though it also addresses using boots instead of an external
| device, and then doesn't consider that in the context of the
| arguments against a larger space.
| heads wrote:
| Tilt it? That is to say, to some extent, could you repurpose
| gravity to give a sense of acceleration?
| crazygringo wrote:
| Copying a comment I made on the HoloTile thread yesterday,
| because this article doesn't address whether this is a possible
| solution:
|
| ---
|
| Remember those "spaceship" amusement park rides that sat about a
| dozen people, with the space adventure playing on the front
| "window", and it tilted front/back and side/side to simulate the
| effects of acceleration and deceleration?
|
| And I don't think there's any way of actually telling whether
| you're accelerating or tilting, as long as you keep the forces
| within a certain limited range?
|
| Which immediately makes me wonder -- what if you put this
| HoloTile floor on top of a platform that can tilt on both axes?
| What if the moment it starts to detect you walking forwards, it
| tilts "uphill" in the direction you're walking? When you suddenly
| stop walking, it tilts backwards slightly for a split second,
| then resets to level.
|
| Because this actually matches what our body experiences on a
| sidewalk -- when we walk forwards we actually tilt our body
| slightly forwards as we accelerate, and tilt it backwards briefly
| to stop. (Same as a Segway does, if that's easier to picture.)
|
| So if the floor tilts... would that be good enough to complete
| the illusion, and send the right signals to the inner ear?
| Because the liquid in your cochlea is now sloshing around in the
| right way? The interoception is matching as well?
| tempestn wrote:
| There are ways to tell (you can't have more than one G total
| acceleration via tilt, for one thing, and there's the
| rotational acceleration of the tilting itself), but that's
| still an intriguing idea. Maybe something like that could
| indeed get you closer.
| lisper wrote:
| +1. This is definitely worth investigating. It sounds very
| plausible to me.
| rzzzt wrote:
| I think you are talking about the Venturer simulators. It looks
| like it lives on as two-player cabins named Venturer S2 for the
| arcade; I can't find what the model number for the "bus sized"
| version (could hold 14 people) was. Both the small and the
| large model uses 3 pistons arranged in a triangle.
| eastbound wrote:
| > And I don't think there's any way of actually telling whether
| you're accelerating or tilting
|
| The moment the machine moves the frame to make you feel like
| it's accelerating, it generates a rotation. A gyro would prove
| it. The body would feel if the machine tried to generate fast
| transitions.
| jackcosgrove wrote:
| Is there a way to control the pitch and yaw of the treadmill to
| simulate an acceleration change? If the vestibular system is
| expecting a deceleration, make the treadmill have a slight upward
| slope along the axis where we would expect to slow down?
| khazhoux wrote:
| I find it _extremely_ disappointing, when a group is attempting
| to innovate on a problem that is very clearly difficult, and
| someone comes along to say "I'm sorry, but this can't work."
|
| The researchers are obviously aware of the challenges and working
| to overcome them. No one is confused to think that an
| omnidirectional-treadmill can capture the true physics of
| walking. The researchers are working to get it as close as
| possible.
|
| Naysaying, in cases like this, is not a virtuous skill.
| jackcosgrove wrote:
| I don't even think this is the biggest problem in VR, and it's
| mostly solved.
|
| I used a Quest 2 for the first time the other day. It was a
| very simple environment, a single room you could walk around
| in. There was a desk in the middle. I tried to lean my elbow on
| the desk and almost fell over :/
|
| So kudos to the Disney team.
| forrestthewoods wrote:
| Strong agree. It's boring, lazy, and wrong.
|
| The Apollo program is notorious for inventing all kinds of
| technologies as part of the effort. We should celebrate
| ambitious "moon shot" (or loon shot) efforts.
|
| It's awesome when companies support ambitious and crazy
| efforts. These projects often pay all kinds of unexpected
| dividends. In both technological development and people
| development.
|
| Was landing on the moon useful? Not really, no. Was the effort
| to land on the moon useful? Hell yeah it was. Kudos to all the
| companies that fund bonafide research.
| mft_ wrote:
| One could construct a spectrum, from outright pessimism through
| 'naysaying' and 'reasonable skepticism', ending up somewhere in
| the region of constructive challenge and helpful pressure-
| testing discussion.
|
| Would all stations on this spectrum be disappointing to you, or
| is there a line to be drawn? And if so, how would you explain
| your reasoning?
|
| ---
|
| (I ask this not to be awkward, but because I've often mused
| over something similar myself, when frustrated by the knee-jerk
| challenge offered by some folks to new or positive ideas.)
| bee_rider wrote:
| I think they are talking not to Disney Research, but to the
| people excited by Disney Research. I'm of the opinion that we
| should just let people be excited about things, but I can see
| the mindset that doesn't want people to be set up for
| disappointment.
| Karellen wrote:
| People Who Say It Cannot Be Done Should Not Interrupt Those Who
| Are Doing It
|
| https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/01/26/doing/
| Invictus0 wrote:
| This is the "stick my head in the sand" techno-optimist take.
| The physics of our world defines what is possible, and no
| amount of "trying to innovate" can overcome, for instance, the
| poor economics of the Hyperloop or flying cars. This author
| makes a compelling argument that the physics underlying the
| human vestibular system is unable to handle the Omni treadmill,
| even with a technically perfect implementation. You can't just
| "innovate" past physics.
| jeffbee wrote:
| I like how even in the advertisement in the video it is perfectly
| obvious that the act of walking on this thing must be quite
| unnatural. The person using it looks like he is half way though
| the first day of walking school.
| causality0 wrote:
| I find it very sad that someone thought about this long enough to
| write an article without considering "What if you just get used
| to it?" Like fuck me, people train to put their bodies in an
| enormous variety of physical circumstances. If a human being can
| learn to drive a car at a hundred miles per hour, can learn to
| fly a wingsuit, can learn to exist in zero-G, they can probably
| damn learn to walk on an omnidirectional treadmill without
| falling over or throwing up.
| crazygringo wrote:
| You make a good point -- basically, our brain could understand
| that our body is fixed in space, and that when we "walk" we're
| actually sliding the environment around with our feet. And just
| quickly get used to it.
|
| It's not clear that this would work, but it's not implausible
| either. Maybe it'll make us nauseous, or maybe it'll feel
| different but still work fine.
| masfuerte wrote:
| The penultimate paragraph addresses this point.
|
| > [...] Maybe we can still use them unnaturally. If you train
| yourself, maybe you can learn to do the strange movements that
| are required to change speed and direction on the treadmill.
| [...]
| crowcroft wrote:
| Probably wouldn't be the first that can't happen that's happened.
| kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote:
| We even have a saying for it:
|
| There's a first time for everything.
| seabass-labrax wrote:
| I think there might be a problem with calling these new VR
| systems are 'holodecks', a term used both by journalists and
| sometimes the technologies' inventors themselves. Just because we
| haven't yet reached a USS Enterprise level of refinement, in
| which you can run, climb and interact with objects naturally,
| doesn't mean that omnidirectional treadmills don't have a huge
| amount of potential. After all, I for one don't feel any less
| impressed by ground-penetrating radar or X-ray scanners just
| because they won't fit in a pocket-sized Star Trek tricorder. All
| that will come in time, probably within my lifetime. That's
| already a century or two ahead of their fictional schedule :)
|
| We could use omnidirectional treadmills right here and now, the
| vestibular confusion issues notwithstanding, for all kind of
| entertainment and education purposes. Consider that a lot of
| popular video games don't actually involve as much complex
| movement as you might assume from the critiques of VR: the main
| activity in most tactical first-person-shooter games is crouching
| behind walls! Virtual reality museums and art galleries will be
| great with omnidirectional treadmills; here, walking is not the
| point, it's just a natural and intuitive way of navigating in a
| virtual environment without having to learn the controls
| beforehand.
| taneq wrote:
| Those that say a thing is impossible should stop interrupting
| those who are doing it.
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