[HN Gopher] Disney unveils the HoloTile floor
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Disney unveils the HoloTile floor
        
       Author : wallflower
       Score  : 453 points
       Date   : 2024-01-27 15:41 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.ign.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.ign.com)
        
       | metadat wrote:
       | Direct link to the goods: https://youtu.be/68YMEmaF0rs?t=203
        
         | danmaz74 wrote:
         | For the lazy, from minute 3:28
        
         | bawolff wrote:
         | Everyone in the video looks like they are walking funny, which
         | kind of makes me wonder if it works if you walk normally?
        
           | huhtenberg wrote:
           | It's a tech demo. It's not quite there yet.
        
           | tasty_freeze wrote:
           | It is impressive tech, but you are right, it looks like the
           | person has sh*t their pants and are gingerly trying to get to
           | the bathroom.
        
             | mastersummoner wrote:
             | Burst out laughing so hard I startled my baby, thanks for
             | that
        
           | colordrops wrote:
           | It looks like it's limited in speed.
        
           | hgs3 wrote:
           | It looks like their shuffling not walking.
        
           | smegger001 wrote:
           | Quiet possible a balance issue. When walking you are moving
           | you mass forward this pushes your feet backwards I would
           | imagine that if not carful it could cause you to fall
        
           | thomastjeffery wrote:
           | Walking normally would probably result in you falling
           | forward.
           | 
           | This is basically like walking on ice, except you slip more
           | slowly, and you also un-slip (your feet are actively moved)
           | occasionally to recenter.
           | 
           | That limits both the speed you can pretend to walk, and the
           | speed at which you can be moved back to center; because both
           | relative movements are working against your natural balance.
           | 
           | You will never be able to work with or against the inertia of
           | your body weight. That is the core limitation of any
           | treadmill.
        
           | coffeebeqn wrote:
           | If you walked at normal pace and stride I bet you'd just walk
           | straight off the mat
        
       | huytersd wrote:
       | Oh that's nice. Would love to see someone put it through its
       | paces though. Like really try to run. It would be amazing to see
       | something like this that you can't physically get off of no
       | matter how hard you try. That would be the pinnacle of what this
       | thing can be.
        
         | rahkiin wrote:
         | I wanted to see the same but I think it might bring havoc to
         | your balance control without training.
        
         | judge2020 wrote:
         | While the walking demos show slow, methodical movement, the one
         | demo with the chair ( https://youtu.be/68YMEmaF0rs?t=269 ) is
         | definitely much faster. Maybe it can't handle automatically
         | moving the human if they walk too fast and suddenly change
         | direction (improvable with better software), maybe they don't
         | want to overpromise what it can do.
        
           | gimmeThaBeet wrote:
           | Yeah the 'force' movement was really cool. Maybe this is the
           | other way you could do the Jamiroquai video for Virtual
           | Insanuty?
           | 
           | I've never really used VR stuff but I wonder what does it
           | feel like in your head when your legs move and your view
           | moves but your body doesn't?
           | 
           | And then the edge case is extreme but topologically, can
           | something like this work for running where you can lose
           | contact with the ground and your body is sort of compensating
           | for momentum?
           | 
           | I guess treadmills work without people flying off them, so is
           | it just a matter of getting the impulse right?
        
             | Nevermark wrote:
             | > what does it feel like in your head when your legs move
             | and your view moves but your body doesn't?
             | 
             | That could be fixed with some active tilting of the whole
             | platform to create dynamic lateral forces.
             | 
             | Those little wheels will need to be strongly controlled &
             | grippy to avoid real and perceived slippage.
        
       | djhope99 wrote:
       | John Carmack pointed out on X that there is a fatal flaw in this
       | design:
       | 
       | "I am skeptical of something like this making an impact for
       | consumer VR, but it should be possible to integrate the sensor
       | input at the OpenXR level, allowing it to work with all apps
       | without needing per-app specialization.
       | 
       | However, it probably doesn't "solve" motion sickness, because the
       | vestibular system still won't think you are going forward. The
       | bouncing around motion of walking does have a masking effect that
       | will help some."
       | 
       | I personally could not get over the awful bout of motion sickness
       | after I played my first "walking around" game on VR.
        
         | mlyle wrote:
         | Calling this a fatal flaw is silly.
         | 
         | It may not fix everything with movement wearing a HMD, but one
         | can imagine a whole lot of use cases without HMDs, and it might
         | improve a lot of HMD use cases.
        
           | djhope99 wrote:
           | Sure but I think that Disney is likely to be presenting this
           | as a potential consumer use case and if it can't make
           | traction there it seems pretty fatal if they can't find a way
           | to make money from it.
           | 
           | We see a lot of POCs like this that never make it anywhere.
        
             | hibikir wrote:
             | I think it's far more likely that this will be used in the
             | parks division: Selling to consumers involves far more
             | variables than creating a VR enhanced ride. Only if it's
             | successful as a ride, with time to get the problems figured
             | out and the prices low enough, they will consider retail.
        
               | djhope99 wrote:
               | As it stands though VR motion sickness is an even bigger
               | problem for a park ride, sometimes you can get used to
               | the sickness but if you're doing it for a one off ride.
        
               | easton wrote:
               | The video mentioned stage shows as an application, which
               | makes total sense. It's like the turning platform from
               | Hamilton x1000.
        
         | judge2020 wrote:
         | Motion sickness in VR is not universal. Many do just fine
         | playing unoptimized, stuttering games/apps at 50fps including
         | when using smooth locomotion.
        
           | kranke155 wrote:
           | It's a problem most people experience, having worked in VR
           | for years, I am still very sensitive.
        
         | bilsbie wrote:
         | I don't know why he's saying that. Treadmills solve motion, why
         | wouldn't this?
        
           | djhope99 wrote:
           | Have you tried a treadmill with a VR headset on? It's not the
           | movement that's the problem it's combining it with a VR
           | headset.
        
         | bilsbie wrote:
         | Even if it didn't solve motion sickness, I think it would
         | dramatically help with immersion for me.
         | 
         | Artificial movement brings me out of it more than anything.
        
         | xg15 wrote:
         | I think it depends how it's supposed to be used. If you try to
         | use it like a treadmill in a tiny room then no - and I'm
         | sceptical it would work at all, because the motors would
         | probably be overpowered by any kind of decent sprint or jump.
         | 
         | However I could imagine this to be able to expand the abilities
         | of venues that already have enough space to let you walk
         | around: You could have people move on their own as long as
         | there is space, but then "stealthily" move them around when
         | they think they're standing still, allowing either much larger
         | geometries than would even fit in a hall or let you play around
         | with non-euclidean geometries, etc.
         | 
         | But yeah, in general I agree, I don't see how this will enable
         | some kind of VR breakthrough or even just move us in the
         | direction on one: Even with this tech working perfectly, you'd
         | be restricted to scenarios where you walk on flat ground and
         | never touch anything. Even a basic hike in the woods has more
         | complex interactions than that, not even starting with the kind
         | of over-the-top acrobatics that we're used to from non-VR
         | videogames.
         | 
         | So yeah, you could probably do the Stanley Parable in VR with
         | this (without the staircases and the drops), but I don't see
         | much else.
        
           | Nevermark wrote:
           | > you'd be restricted to scenarios where you walk on flat
           | ground
           | 
           | I don't think it's either surprising or discouraging that
           | flat walking surfaces get worked out before dynamic surfaces.
           | 
           | It might take a while, but it is inevitable.
           | 
           | A rolling wave, with a grippy active surface, could keep you
           | centered while you perceived an upward slope. Seeing and
           | feeling a vista of uneven slopes in VR would be fantastic. I
           | would love Skyrim as a health app!
           | 
           | Also, simple tilting could provide the force feedback of
           | changing speeds.
        
           | thfuran wrote:
           | I wonder how quickly you can spin someone while they're
           | walking without it being perceptible. If you have a large
           | area, you could use sneaky rotation to constrain movement
           | while minimizing the amount of sliding people around you have
           | to do. Though I'm not actually sure that'd be less noticeable
           | at practical sizes.
        
       | hanniabu wrote:
       | But how does it work?
        
         | mlyle wrote:
         | Little rolling elements that have a wheel in them. It knows
         | where you are, and treadmills you back to a starting point as
         | you move.
         | 
         | The idea is simple, but the details to make it usable, safe,
         | work well, etc, are tricky.
         | 
         | edit: Reading more, it looks like it's mostly tilting, with
         | perhaps high frequency vibration being used to modulate the
         | amount of friction on each tile.
        
           | willcipriano wrote:
           | Wouldn't that feel like you are about to fall on your face
           | the entire time?
        
             | airstrike wrote:
             | Isn't that the same as walking?
        
               | Nevermark wrote:
               | > Wouldn't that feel like you are about to fall on your
               | face the entire time?
               | 
               | > Isn't that the same as walking?
               | 
               | You feel like you are falling on your face when you walk?
               | I think you are referring to snowboarding!
               | 
               | Can't wait for all of that, but I think really really
               | impressive tech demos are going to be all we get for some
               | time.
        
               | willcipriano wrote:
               | Walking on a sheet of oil perhaps. Walking typically
               | moves you forward, not backwards.
        
           | pxmpxm wrote:
           | There are no rolling elements / wheels that I can see - it
           | looks like low friction pucks that angle and raise/lower to
           | push the objects laterally by having them slide to towards
           | the lower pucks
        
       | Roritharr wrote:
       | So, from looking at the video, it looks like these are wheels
       | that can be angled so they make contact with whatever is on top
       | of them more than the wheels next to them, applying a tiny bit of
       | momentum in the desired direction to then angle out of the way
       | while another wheel takes over. This is a really cool solution,
       | but I can't imagine it not feeling very weird while walking since
       | it's not you being moved with your entire contact surface area
       | instead of some parts of your shoe getting dragged somewhere. In
       | general the unexpected inertia must also feel really weird.
        
         | bsza wrote:
         | The same is true for a treadmill, and that doesn't feel really
         | weird to walk on. Though omni-directional treadmills for VR
         | have been tested before, and IIRC it's the starting and
         | stopping that feels weird.
        
           | rafaelmn wrote:
           | > and that doesn't feel really weird.
           | 
           | Seeing people step on a treadmill for the first time I'd say
           | it definitely does. You get used to it but the feeling is
           | very different from regular walking/running.
        
             | bsza wrote:
             | If it's running at a constant speed, it shouldn't be _any_
             | different according to Newtonian mechanics. Perhaps seeing
             | the environment stand still is weird, but in VR (which I
             | understand would be the main application here) that's a
             | non-issue.
        
               | tshaddox wrote:
               | It also needs to be sufficiently low-latency in its
               | reactions to your change in speed. That's not an issue
               | when you're walking or running outside. I think the need
               | to maintain a very consistent speed is one of the
               | difficulties in using a treadmill for the first time.
        
               | armchairhacker wrote:
               | My issues with a treadmill is that there's this wall
               | right in front of me I run into if I run too fast, so
               | it's hard to run fast (even if I don't run into the
               | wall); the tread is narrow so I can't move too far to the
               | side (which makes it harder to run even if I don't move
               | to the side, I also find it a bit harder to run on a
               | narrow sidewalk than a wide one); and of course I can't
               | run too slow or I'll fall off. Seeing everything around
               | me completely still as I run makes me nauseous, but
               | that's much less of an issue. The main issue, having to
               | consciously constrain how I run (even if I actually run
               | at a constant speed in a very straight line outside, so
               | in theory it wouldn't be necessary), makes running
               | outside significantly easier and faster.
               | 
               | VR should stick to bike trainers. Making an immersive
               | bike that can simulate hills and turns and feel natural
               | seems achievable today and is relatively a piece of cake.
        
             | malfist wrote:
             | It's weird, but it's not "learning a bike" weird
        
           | jayd16 wrote:
           | > IIRC it's the starting and stopping that feels weird.
           | 
           | Well sure. You can't feel absolute velocity, you only feel
           | acceleration.
        
             | bsza wrote:
             | Oh, right. Feeling no force feedback when you stop. Yikes.
             | Must feel like trying to walk on ice.
        
               | hgomersall wrote:
               | Just reverse the inertial dampers to simulate the
               | sensation.
        
         | btbuildem wrote:
         | I wonder how that interacts with being visually immersed in a
         | VR environment. The walker will have no momentum, but still go
         | through the motions of walking -- the visual feedback won't
         | align with that of the inner ear.
         | 
         | Maybe the next step is to put the rolly floor on a platform
         | that can be dynamically angled away from horizontal,
         | effectively creating a pitch that makes the person feel like
         | they're leaning (well, they would be leaning) and that might be
         | enough to fool the inner ear? Gravity and acceleration are
         | pretty interchangeable after all.
        
         | c0pium wrote:
         | If you actually read the article you will see it works in an
         | entirely different manner.
        
         | micromacrofoot wrote:
         | oddly it's vibration and tilting rather than wheels, it reduces
         | the friction using this method so it might be more like walking
         | in place on ice
        
       | mfwit wrote:
       | Over my head, but heres the patent (pdf): https://image-
       | ppubs.uspto.gov/dirsearch-public/print/downloa...
        
       | sebastianconcpt wrote:
       | And how does it perform when rotating, starting or stopping fast?
        
       | bilsbie wrote:
       | Does anyone know how it actually works? I can't tell on the
       | video.
       | 
       | They don't look like wheels.
        
         | cma wrote:
         | Tilted cylinders that rotate around the main cylinder axis to
         | push you along the tangent of the outer lip of the raised
         | portion, and rotate along global up axis to change where the
         | raised portion is, changing direction.
         | 
         | It acts like a roller on its side that can be rotated to change
         | direction, but probably has advantages mechanically or with not
         | crushing your toes or sucking in your shoelaces or something,
         | or just less friction from the direction rotation change.
        
         | jasonjmcghee wrote:
         | Top comment lists the patent, you can read it. Many comments
         | are making up answers and adding a bunch of technical jargon to
         | sound legit
        
       | nytesky wrote:
       | Community did it first.
       | 
       | https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z4FGzE4endQ
       | 
       | (Fixed link)
        
         | jasonjmcghee wrote:
         | VR treadmills were a thing long before they did it
        
       | bilsbie wrote:
       | One idea for VR is to hold these static and let you walk around
       | normally but anytime you stop walking they move you back to the
       | center.
        
         | huhtenberg wrote:
         | You'd feel that.
        
           | dymk wrote:
           | Maybe not if you do it slowly. One hack that room-scale VR
           | systems do to make you feel like you're in a larger space is
           | subtly curve the direction you're walking, so you end up
           | walking in a large arc but you "see" you're walking in a
           | straight line. It's subtle enough for most people to not
           | notice.
        
             | pi-e-sigma wrote:
             | Can you link to a pic of such a room? The idea seems
             | interesting
        
       | mistersquid wrote:
       | This is totally a bit of speculation, but given Disney is one of
       | the majors (only major?) with an app for the launch of Apple
       | Vision Pro, [0] I can't help but wonder what is coming from the
       | NDA discussions between the teams working on HMD technology.
       | 
       | If the dais/stage/platform of the HoloTile product Lanny Smoot
       | demos is a true prototype, it's likely miniaturizable (as well as
       | scaled up) for implementation in both court-sized and
       | entertainment room-sized versions.
       | 
       | The future gets closer and closer.
       | 
       | [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy94Ezsj9NE
        
       | tommoor wrote:
       | It's the human-scale version of these parcel sorting devices
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRS0Uj2WdpA
        
         | xg15 wrote:
         | That was the first thing that came to my mind as well.
         | 
         | Given that those things already exist for some time, I wonder
         | if Disney actually used them as a base and then made their own
         | version of them or something.
        
           | mtillman wrote:
           | Used to be a ride at Coney Island:
           | https://youtu.be/9Wz5vZmU8Dc?t=221
        
         | ethbr1 wrote:
         | See some comments up top -- the patent is for a fundamentally
         | different source of friction control. Ultrasonic, not
         | mechanical/directional.
         | 
         | Which should make it more amenable to higher-frequency control
         | than mechanical systems would be able to shift at (given
         | they're limited by mass).
         | 
         | That said, having seen high-throughput parcel sorting, the
         | modern tech is amazing and the reason we have flow-through
         | logistics and 1-2 day delivery.
         | 
         | They've got it slowed _way_ down in that video.
         | 
         | Here's a system at closer to full-speed:
         | https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nPWTfT9sO2Y&t=26s
         | https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JzURbt0qlqk&t=1m52s
        
           | thfuran wrote:
           | It may also make pets hate it.
        
             | dylan604 wrote:
             | purrfect. they won't be trying to get under foot while you
             | can't see them in your VR set up.
        
           | mickdarling wrote:
           | The patent folks are pointing to is not what this Holotile is
           | made of. The Holotiles are slanted disks that can both rotate
           | around the vertical axis and the slanted axis, with control
           | motors for each tile. The Ultrasonic stuff is for a different
           | use case, though could be integrated into this, it is not the
           | primary motive mechanism.
        
       | jncfhnb wrote:
       | I usually shit on VR but this looks kind of cool. I can't help
       | but notice the people are basically shuffling around on it so I
       | doubt it will scale effectively, but it's cool.
        
       | BiteCode_dev wrote:
       | It's very cool, but the guy answer sounds so corporaty that the
       | only thing I hear is: patent, proprietary platforms, restricted
       | use cases, we'll make lots of money and sue anybody even drawing
       | it. Have fun! We mandate it!
        
         | steve1977 wrote:
         | So, a typical Disney product then?
        
           | Towaway69 wrote:
           | Typical capitalistic product?
        
             | bigfishrunning wrote:
             | Better then the alternative (no product, starvation)
        
             | aleph_minus_one wrote:
             | > Typical capitalistic product?
             | 
             | Quite the opposite: patents are artificial monopolies
             | issued by the country - thus the actual opposite of free
             | markets.
        
               | rpmisms wrote:
               | They are nice for a reason, though. They're a temporary
               | monopoly in exchange for open access to the patented
               | mechanism. They're far better than copyright, basically.
        
               | felipeko wrote:
               | Yet most patented inventions are pretty obvious on how to
               | copy without the need to look at the patent, same with
               | this case.
               | 
               | So we have no benefit of "open access to the mechanism"
               | but with the deleterious effect of the "temporary (1/5 of
               | a long human life) monopoly".
        
               | Towaway69 wrote:
               | Are we speaking of patents or the product made from those
               | patents? Are we speaking of how capitalism enforces
               | permanent growth and profit requirements upon us so that
               | most anything that can be monetised will be monetised.
               | 
               | Even feeding the homeless is monetised by the state[1] -
               | in the form of fines.
               | 
               | I for one can no longer distinguish between capitalistic
               | greed and profiteering via patents, food, housing,
               | warmth, freedoms, user data, ....
               | 
               | [1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-
               | news/2023/aug/04/texas-volunt...
        
               | orwin wrote:
               | Free market = liberalism.
               | 
               | Capitalism is about owning the means of exchange and
               | production, and how to distribute the generated capital.
               | 
               | [edit] which is fine, but rely a bit much on the
               | 'benevolent dictator' trope recently.
        
               | theK wrote:
               | I think the problems with IP rights startend when the law
               | allowed companies to be treated as persons, from there on
               | it was just downhill. Instead of protecting the inventor
               | we started weaponising IP rights.
        
               | throwaway-blaze wrote:
               | You know the latin root for the word 'corporation' is
               | 'corpus' meaning 'body'. A corporation in English common
               | law is literally a fictitious person created for the
               | purpose of performing business activities independent of
               | its shareholders.
               | 
               | The fact that corporations inherit many of the legal
               | abilities of people in our system (including property
               | rights like intellectual property) is a good thing.
        
               | theK wrote:
               | > The fact that corporations inherit many of the legal
               | abilities of people in our system is a good thing
               | 
               | In general I agree with this. But on the specific case of
               | intellectual property I do not.
        
               | elmomle wrote:
               | It is worthwhile to distinguish between capitalism and a
               | free market. A free market engenders capitalism, which
               | (with sufficient accumulation of wealth and creeping
               | market and regulatory capture) creates forces that oppose
               | the free market.
        
               | jdksmdbtbdnmsm wrote:
               | Capitalism is literally defined by the ability to
               | exercise capital to accumulate more of it, which is
               | literally the only way for a monopoly to exist. By
               | definition, capitalism has nothing to do with so-called
               | "free markets".
        
               | jazzyjackson wrote:
               | And "free markets" are the results of showing up with a
               | Navy to help negotiate a trade deal.
        
               | mensetmanusman wrote:
               | Patents solve the first mover disadvantage in game
               | theory. If you come up with a better solution, please
               | share.
        
               | aleph_minus_one wrote:
               | I don't claim that I have an easy solution for this
               | problem (at best, I have some fragmentary ideas). I just
               | claim that patents (and copyright) are actually quite the
               | opposite of free markets.
        
               | mensetmanusman wrote:
               | They are like stop signs and stop lights. It prevents you
               | from driving like you want, but makes everyone more free
               | to get to where they want to go.
        
           | BiteCode_dev wrote:
           | Today's Disney.
           | 
           | If you looked at the video from the studio showing off tech
           | decades ago, you could hear, see and feel the passion.
        
             | CharlesW wrote:
             | You can definitely hear, see, and feel the passion of Larry
             | Smoot in the video on that page.
             | 
             | Also, Disney has patented their inventions since the
             | beginning: https://patentyogi.com/technology/celebrity-
             | patent-walt-disn...
        
               | BiteCode_dev wrote:
               | That's a good example.
               | 
               | Look at the video showing off this exact tech:
               | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdHTlUGN1zw
               | 
               | You feel like you are part of the family while watching
               | this.
               | 
               | It's a completely different vibe.
               | 
               | Honestly, I feel vaguely threatened by the HoloTile Floor
               | demo tone. The way he answers the question about what's
               | it's going to be used for feels like a parent that
               | doesn't want to reveal something to a child.
        
               | CharlesW wrote:
               | > _You feel like you are part of the family while
               | watching this._
               | 
               | Fair enough! I'd just note that Walt was pioneer of
               | content marketing, and I'm sure that was the goal. (This
               | segment was broadcast in the television series
               | _Disneyland_ (1954-1959) in the episode,  "Tricks of Our
               | Trade".)
               | 
               | > _Honestly, I feel vaguely threatened by the HoloTile
               | Floor demo tone. The way he answers the question about
               | what 's it's going to be used for feels like a parent
               | that doesn't want to reveal something to a child._
               | 
               | This one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68YMEmaF0rs
               | Agreed, it's terrible -- overscripted, artificial,
               | inauthentic -- and a failed simulacrum of what Walt's
               | Disney did above. The only honest part is 2:15-3:00,
               | marred only by the terrible reading of the pretend guest.
        
               | daniel_reetz wrote:
               | I worked in that very lab, side by side with Lanny Smoot
               | for four years straight.
               | 
               | The man is 100% passion and 110% invention.
        
               | nytesky wrote:
               | Read his Wikipedia, wow he is amazing. Can you post a
               | thread about his inventions and what it was like working
               | with him?
        
               | daniel_reetz wrote:
               | I'm not in a position to discuss, unfortunately. For now,
               | I'll just say he's the real deal, and I'm proud of him
               | and Disney Research.
        
               | BiteCode_dev wrote:
               | Oh I don't doubt the man, the invention itself is so
               | amazing anybody working on it must be incredible.
               | 
               | I'm saying the message format sucks, which for a company
               | specialized in medias, is ironic.
               | 
               | When I watch the video, I don't see the Disney family
               | friendly that I used to love.
               | 
               | I see the corporation that seems to be uncomfortable to
               | invite me to the party they are trying to sell me entries
               | to.
        
         | bongodongobob wrote:
         | Yeah what a piece of shit for inventing something completely
         | new and novel and wanting to make money off of it. He should
         | create a bullshit AI startup instead.
        
           | jimmydddd wrote:
           | Best comment! He's almost as bad as that jerk who was paying
           | for surgeries to cure people's blindness. :-)
        
           | BiteCode_dev wrote:
           | Valve makes plenty of money out of a proprietary platform,
           | and still manages to be the good guys.
           | 
           | It's possible.
           | 
           | But disney has lost the friendly vibes for a long time.
           | 
           | They still got talent, and that's not nothing.
        
             | 4ggr0 wrote:
             | fish stinks from the top, doesn't it?
        
         | endisneigh wrote:
         | Would you prefer if this didn't exist at all, like before this
         | things creation?
        
           | BiteCode_dev wrote:
           | No, hence the "this is cool".
           | 
           | I just have the reflex of clinching my butthole now every
           | time I hear that kind of speech.
           | 
           | It's not the speech of the people that invented the machines,
           | it's a speech written by the lawyers, sellers and executives.
           | 
           | Even Nintendo, which is one of the worst offender in
           | obsessive legal actions manage to actually have creators
           | sharing their vision in their voices about their games.
           | 
           | This video is the opposite of that.
        
         | makk wrote:
         | This feels shortsighted. The patent holder gets exclusive
         | rights for a limited amount of time in exchange for publishing
         | how the thing works. Eventually, and not long from now,
         | everyone can make use of it without restriction. And maybe
         | after reading how they do it someone has a better idea.
        
           | thfuran wrote:
           | >and not long from now
           | 
           | That's not quite how I'd describe the terms of patents
        
             | dylan604 wrote:
             | Especially with Disney. They'll figure out how to redraw it
             | and extend the patents for another 75 years. (of course I
             | understand the diff between copyright & patent)
        
           | luke-stanley wrote:
           | Considering how Disney extended copyright law for so long, I
           | can't blame the person you're replying to for suggesting it.
        
           | BiteCode_dev wrote:
           | While I'm not a fan of patents in general, it's more about
           | how you manage your IP that matters.
           | 
           | And honestly, this videos feels like they show it off because
           | they have to, but have so many restrictions to do so that
           | they must weight every single word.
           | 
           | It doesn't look like they want us to have fun with it.
           | 
           | It looks like it's something they hope to sell us.
           | 
           | If I enter a restaurant, I know they want to sell me food,
           | but I want to think about the food, not the bill. And I
           | appreciate a passionate chef.
        
             | dylan604 wrote:
             | They won't sell very many of them if people are not having
             | fun with it. That's such a twisted bit of logic on your
             | part. They don't have an actual retail type product, so
             | it's just a tech demo for now. But it's Disney, so once
             | there is a reatail product, you think their PR department
             | will be showing people _not_ having fun with it?
        
               | BiteCode_dev wrote:
               | See the other comment about older tech videos by Disney.
               | 
               | You'll see they used to know how to make you feel excited
               | and happy about it.
        
             | derefr wrote:
             | > It doesn't look like they want us to have fun with it. It
             | looks like it's something they hope to sell us.
             | 
             | Well, yeah; they (Disney Research) are a tech company, not
             | a product company, and this is -- essentially -- a B2B
             | presentation for those big partner companies of theirs who
             | might want to license this technology. They're not talking
             | to consumers; they're talking to businesses who could build
             | this thing _into_ a product of theirs that is then sold to
             | consumers.
             | 
             | When this is in an actual _product_ , they won't be talking
             | about the _tech_ of it at all. Disney Imagineering (the
             | department that builds Disney 's theme park rides) tries to
             | make the tech as invisible to the experience as possible. A
             | PR piece about a new Disney ride that used this system,
             | likely wouldn't even mention the floor. It'd just mention
             | that they have "high-fidelity VR immersion" or something
             | like that -- and would let guests explain what that
             | _entails_ in their reviews of it.
        
               | BiteCode_dev wrote:
               | See the other comment on old tech videos by disney.
        
       | eggdaft wrote:
       | For a long time I thought we were on a solid track to full VR,
       | which would be indiscernible from reality. Recently I've realised
       | that I was very wrong, and this is why. The visual element of VR
       | is pretty much solved. Audio no problem. But the movement in
       | space is intractable I now believe, and it is an absolutely
       | critical issue that scuppers the whole idea.
       | 
       | Tricks like this can give you a better approximation but I don't
       | think it'll ever be good enough. You want to jump, spin, crouch,
       | crawl, lie down. And interact with others.
       | 
       | I think AR is going to be massive and Apple Vision Pro will be a
       | big hit by gen 3 or 4, but VR is something likely to be "Human-
       | Brain-Interface complete".
       | 
       | Given HBI success will likely arrive on or after the time we
       | reach AGI, I don't really know how that's going to work out. I
       | think headsets will be really fun for a while, but we're not
       | going to get the full experience.
       | 
       | Unless we can suspend people in some kind of viscous fluid with
       | respirators, and ummm people think that's acceptable... suspend
       | them on cables and blow compressed air at them? Google glass no
       | longer looks so embarrassing...
        
         | holmesworcester wrote:
         | One thing I was thinking recently is that if we get
         | sufficiently good at humanoid robots, perhaps it will be within
         | reach to build a robot around a human that can put arbitrary
         | pressure on different parts of the body sufficient to create
         | the feeling of soccer, jujitsu, or even sex. This is probably a
         | 10-100x harder robot to make than a humanoid robot. But it
         | seems more straightforward than a HBI capable of full VR.
        
           | lanewinfield wrote:
           | Feels like it might be easier to get direct access to the
           | brain and simulate those feelings at the source
        
           | imiric wrote:
           | You mean like a suit?
           | 
           | I find current HMDs strapped to my head very uncomfortable,
           | and that they're a major hurdle for mass VR adoption. In
           | general, people want to be _less_ physically absorbed by
           | technology, not more. I can't imagine anyone would want to
           | use an exoskeleton robot suit for increased VR immersion. If
           | anything, you would be less immersed because of the suit
           | itself.
           | 
           | I think this level of physical immersion is not feasible.
           | It's likely that we'll prefer brain-computer interfaces
           | instead, and the stimulation would be done directly on our
           | nervous system.
        
             | Jcowell wrote:
             | > In general, people want to be _less_ physically absorbed
             | by technology, not more.
             | 
             | I've found this to not be true. If you were to give people
             | the ability to get mantis blades, they would probably get
             | mantis blades
        
           | coryrc wrote:
           | You can't physically stimulate inner-ear response without
           | actually accelerating and moving. You'd need to find some way
           | to mask those signals so you actually feel like you're
           | moving. Would also be the only way I could use VR due to
           | awful motion sickness.
        
             | xgkickt wrote:
             | So back to Aerotrims?
        
         | Swizec wrote:
         | > You want to jump, spin, crouch, crawl, lie down
         | 
         | I played Squid Game VR at one of those whole room VR places
         | recently. It was great! We could run, crouch, jump, spin, and
         | interact with others. It all worked. It was even part of the
         | games to do these things.
         | 
         | Felt surprisingly immersive. You forgot you were in some dark
         | room in the basement.
        
           | armada651 wrote:
           | I'm surprised something like The Void never caught on. We've
           | had laser tag arenas for decades, just rent a warehouse and
           | construct an arena where any wall in VR is represented in
           | real life. For hygiene you mandate people buy a face gasket
           | from you or bring the one they've used previously.
           | 
           | No treadmills needed and you can actually touch and lean on
           | surfaces in VR.
        
             | micromacrofoot wrote:
             | it's not a great business model because it's a big space
             | with a small number of people at a time... and the games
             | are fun but more arcade like due to needing to get people
             | in and out of there
             | 
             | with laser tag (also not a huge money maker) you can have
             | many more people in the space, like 5x easily
        
         | Wowfunhappy wrote:
         | With a sufficiently large version of this, why couldn't you
         | jump, crouch, crawl, and lie down? The system would move you
         | back towards the center between jumps.
         | 
         | A remaining missing piece is possibly some type of Galvanic
         | Vestibular Stimulation system. Tell me if I'm totally off-base
         | on this, but this seems like a technological achievable
         | problem.
         | 
         | I'm not saying it's perfect (you can't simulate scrambling over
         | a rock, for example), but it would enable a pretty wide range
         | of movements.
        
           | bear141 wrote:
           | Yeah it seems like people are assuming the person engaging
           | with the floor would be kept completely stationary. It seems
           | to me if the floor were covering a larger area and therefore
           | required less manipulation to keep you stationary then it
           | could use minimal inputs to keep you within the borders and
           | still allow your inner ear to receive most of the inertial
           | inputs required to feel realistic.
        
         | kthejoker2 wrote:
         | Yeah it seems like it will be much easier to create an AR
         | environment that uses pneumatics, robotics, lighting, AI, maybe
         | technology like this to manipulate the environment around you
         | into an actual physical "playscape" (e.g. creating virtual
         | landscapes with real physical obstacles, hiding spots, ladders,
         | sportsball, etc) while you still retain your sense of balance,
         | motion.
         | 
         | Maybe you'll even get an exoskeleton so you can Hulk out :)
         | 
         | But yeah AR has a much brighter "active" feature, and VR will
         | be relegated to "passive" reality.
        
       | smusamashah wrote:
       | A tile with ultrasonic array of transducers are provided as in
       | the assembly to provide instantaneous friction control for any
       | objects contacting or supported on the contact/upper surface. [1]
       | 
       | So that's what these tiny tiles are, something ultrasonic, not
       | tiny wheels.
       | 
       | EDIT: Found some more explanation in a reddit comment. [2]
       | Ultrasound vibration makes it slippery, then it has an X-Y
       | pistons underneath. So it makes itself slippery when it wants to
       | reset position, then makes itself sticky again when it wants to
       | move you back into position. Now repeat this process to fast for
       | you to tell anything is happening.
       | 
       | [1]: https://image-ppubs.uspto.gov/dirsearch-
       | public/print/downloa...
       | 
       | [2]:
       | https://www.reddit.com/r/BeAmazed/comments/19eef29/comment/k...
        
         | pxmpxm wrote:
         | They must be vibrating the surface of those picks with
         | ultrasound to modulate the friction. Pretty clever.
        
         | eastbound wrote:
         | Sorry but if I input energy into the system by walking, and the
         | holotiles input energy by producing ultrasound... how is this
         | energy dissipated?
        
           | fizx wrote:
           | heat
        
           | dymk wrote:
           | Heat, and not very much
        
         | mrtksn wrote:
         | Interestingly, on the video it appears as rotating wheels that
         | change inclination:
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68YMEmaF0rs&t=203s
         | 
         | From the close-up shots, you can clearly see them rotating and
         | changing inclination.
         | 
         | By changing inclination they can control the contact surface of
         | the rotating wheels and as a result control the direction of
         | your movement. Very clever and simple but might be
         | dangerous(you wouldn't want to have your pinky stuck between
         | load bearing rotating wheels) and prone to tear and wear due to
         | the high dynamic friction.
         | 
         | However, if there's actually a way to make it sticky or
         | slippery with ultrasound then you can get away with a partial
         | rotation back and forth while turning it sticky in one
         | direction to push the objects in that direction and turn it
         | slippery to reset its own position and get ready for another
         | push. This probably will make it quite safe.
        
           | smusamashah wrote:
           | That's what I am still confused on how these discs look like
           | wheels to people because lots of comments are saying that.
           | All I see is discs changing angles and can't see them
           | rotating like rotating wheels.
        
             | mrtksn wrote:
             | At 3:33 there's a close up and you can see dirt stuck on
             | the edge of some wheels and it clearly goes around.
             | 
             | Maybe, the part that goes from slippery to sticky with
             | ultrasound is beneath the rubber disks and when there's no
             | load they just rotate freely?
        
               | thrdbndndn wrote:
               | It looks to me that they're spinning than rotating; in
               | other words, rotate around an axis that is perpendicular
               | to the ground, instead of parallel to the ground.
               | 
               | And because of this, the person above is stepping on the
               | "spinning surface" (the "base" surface of a cylinder) of
               | these tiny disks, instead of the curved surface like a
               | normal wheel or some industrial conveyor wheels (as
               | someone linked below,
               | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRS0Uj2WdpA ).
               | 
               | So in a sense, they're not "rotating like rotating
               | wheels" despite being wheels/disks.
               | 
               | BTW, it looks like they also can adjust its axis angle
               | slightly (less than 30 degree), which I imagine is also
               | crucial to how it works.
        
               | mrtksn wrote:
               | That's what I mean. Rotating around their axis, which is
               | spinning. Like the world rotates or spins. And by wheels
               | I also mean disk, probably disks is more precise just as
               | the spinning but really don't see why anyone would be
               | confused when there's a video.
               | 
               | But anyway, thanks for improving my English.
        
               | thrdbndndn wrote:
               | (Text here is removed due to bad wording.)
               | 
               | To mrtksn: yeah I think your original post is pretty
               | clear. But there are indeed other comments in this thread
               | that are confusing the two.
        
               | mrtksn wrote:
               | Yeah probably but there's a minutes long video with close
               | ups.
               | 
               | In my mental model its wheels attached in different way
               | that rotate around an axis perpendicular to the ground. I
               | call in wheels because moves the things around.
               | 
               | I'm really confused by the confusion. Isn't it obvious on
               | the video that its cylindrical objects that can be
               | considered thick disks and wouldn't all disks rotate on
               | the round surface around the axis?
        
               | bear141 wrote:
               | I also found the close up video to be self explanatory
               | but I understand the confusion. People are thinking of it
               | as multiple tiny treadmills that change direction rather
               | than the spinning disc it actually is.
        
               | smusamashah wrote:
               | English isn't my first language but if it people were
               | referring the motion as spinning instead of rotating and
               | discs instead of wheels it wouldn't be confusing.
        
               | spyder wrote:
               | Yep, and by tilting the spinning discs/cylinders you can
               | have omnidirectional control by changing which part of
               | the edge of the rotating cylinder is in contact with the
               | surface above it. You don't need the ultrasound thing
               | posted in the other comment, that patent may be a
               | different path they've also tried.
        
         | gimmeThaBeet wrote:
         | That's pretty gnarly. So the discs are basically doing little
         | inchworming steps back and forth but never has to break contact
         | by modulating the friction? Very much a bit of cleverness
         | turned magic.
         | 
         | The one thing that I notice is item 726/Fig 7./PDF pg 10, it
         | has "with the soles and attached/embedded ultrasonic
         | transducers". Is that maybe a different or older envisioning of
         | this system? His shoes seemed totally normal.
         | 
         | Just trying to wrap my head around how much the friction can be
         | changed by vibration, like a solid-ish state fluidized bed.
         | Don't know it both contact surfaces need to be vibrating.
        
           | Animats wrote:
           | That's a cute system.
           | 
           | Moving stuff around with controlled vibration is known.
           | There's a cute trick where you drive a flat horizontal plate
           | in three axes (X, Y, and rotate about Z). Sawtooth waveforms
           | will move things around; the slow part of the sawtooth
           | produces motion, and the fast part yanks the plate back to
           | the starting point, breaking from static friction to weaker
           | sliding friction. It's even possible, by using combinations
           | of translation and rotation, to move multiple objects in
           | different directions. The original research was funded by
           | United Parcel Service. They wanted to take a table full of
           | boxes, separate them, align them, and send them to a
           | conveyor. Didn't work well enough, although someone did a
           | chessboard demo where multiple pieces were moved around
           | separately.
           | 
           | This is a similar idea, but at a finer scale.
           | 
           | > "with the soles and attached/embedded ultrasonic
           | transducers"
           | 
           | That suggests doing this in the shoe, instead of in the
           | floor. Different system. Disney might license that to Nike.
           | 
           | I can't see it for theme park customers. This system can make
           | people fall down.
           | 
           | Performers, though...
        
             | gimmeThaBeet wrote:
             | Oh, okay, I see, in that alternative system, the tiles
             | still move, but your shoe with transducers is used to
             | adjust the friction.
        
       | baerrie wrote:
       | Until there is tech that makes a 3D feeling surface that can
       | create corners, people, anything, vr will feel hollow. At this
       | point, a full body suit that creates haptic responses to simulate
       | feeling an object seems more feasible than a static exterior
       | surface like this that fulfills the other half of the vr
       | illusion.
        
         | thfuran wrote:
         | This is basically the opposite of haptics. It's trying not to
         | be noticeable while solving a problem essentially unrelated to
         | perception.
        
       | ARandomerDude wrote:
       | It's a treadmill that attaches to a phone you can strap to your
       | face. Neat, I guess.
        
       | graiz wrote:
       | You can read the patent here:
       | https://patents.google.com/patent/US20180217662A1/en
        
       | akamoonknight wrote:
       | One thing my mom (an occupational therapist) brought up when
       | seeing this was the potential applications for therapy. I'm not
       | sure of the nuances, but one concept that comes to mind is that
       | you could increase force on a user such that you can get a
       | persons strength increasing without them even noticing it.
       | 
       | I'm not really sure what types of solutions currently exist in
       | these spaces, and I'm sure that this would be a very expensive
       | solution for this topic, but future thinking possibilities of
       | this type of thing seem like they could have applications outside
       | of just VR.
        
       | kevindamm wrote:
       | "inching" being the key term here
        
         | dymk wrote:
         | The demo of him sitting on a chair and being moved around shows
         | IMO impressive acceleration. It's probably dependent on how
         | much surface area is contacting the floor, but it certainly
         | looks responsive enough for real usecases.
        
       | jdksmdbtbdnmsm wrote:
       | Is there a contest for the most stuffy and uncomfortable product
       | reveal?
        
       | BryanLegend wrote:
       | John Carmacks take:
       | 
       | I am skeptical of something like this making an impact for
       | consumer VR, but it should be possible to integrate the sensor
       | input at the OpenXR level, allowing it to work with all apps
       | without needing per-app specialization.
       | 
       | However, it probably doesn't "solve" motion sickness, because the
       | vestibular system still won't think you are going forward. The
       | bouncing around motion of walking does have a masking effect that
       | will help some.
       | 
       | Source:
       | https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1750557236798148613
        
         | lttlrck wrote:
         | Perhaps headsets that manipulate the vestibular system via
         | ultrasonic are in our future.
         | 
         | (a entirely uneducated conjecture)
        
           | modeless wrote:
           | Unfortunately physics can't be fooled. Your limbs will still
           | move according to the laws of inertia, and when that motion
           | doesn't match your sense of balance your brain will likely be
           | just as confused. But more importantly, you will
           | _immediately_ fall over if your sense of balance doesn 't
           | match reality exactly. Then you'd have to be supported by a
           | harness. Obviously constantly being prevented from falling
           | over by leaning on a harness is not going to feel like the
           | natural movement that people want these systems to achieve.
        
             | __MatrixMan__ wrote:
             | I don't know, humans are pretty adaptable. I'm imagining
             | spending a day "running" around in VR and then running in
             | IRL and having all of this unexpected momentum causing me
             | to fall over whenever I want to stop.
        
             | Izkata wrote:
             | > Then you'd have to be supported by a harness.
             | 
             | Single-person omnidirectional treadmills for VR already
             | exist, and as far as I know all of them use just such a
             | harness: https://www.virtuix.com/
        
               | modeless wrote:
               | Yes, I know and I've used several types. They remain
               | extremely niche exactly because they _don 't_ achieve
               | anything like the natural walking feel people imagine
               | these systems would provide.
        
           | moffkalast wrote:
           | Or perhaps it can be solved the same way as going from
           | teleporting-only nonsense to normal joystick movement was -
           | people just got used to it. We can adapt to just about
           | anything if we do it for long enough.
        
             | derefr wrote:
             | The majority of people did _not_ adapt; and instead are
             | currently assiduously avoiding VR for simulation-sickness
             | reasons until it solves these problems.
             | 
             | (My hypothesis is that the minority of people who _did_
             | manage to  "adapt" to movement in VR, are people who have
             | lived for years with inner-ear problems that have
             | essentially made their vestibular sense deaf.)
        
         | wolverine876 wrote:
         | > the vestibular system still won't think you are going forward
         | 
         | Why not? Movement is relative, of course, and I'm moving
         | relative to the floor and relative to what I see. What does the
         | vestibular system detect that isn't happening?
        
           | jschlesser wrote:
           | Your legs are moving but your head / vestibular system isn't
           | experiencing acceleration that it expects with those leg
           | movements. Think of it this way, if you are holding a
           | pendulum and take a normal step forward, the pendulum will
           | start to swing. If you take a step forward on the magic floor
           | tiles, your legs move normally but since your body stays in
           | the same place, the pendulum is motionless.
        
             | leereeves wrote:
             | > Your legs are moving but your head / vestibular system
             | isn't experiencing acceleration that it expects with those
             | leg movements
             | 
             | That's also true on a treadmill. I think the bigger problem
             | would be that the world appears to be moving (unlike a
             | treadmill) and you don't feel any acceleration.
        
               | Ringz wrote:
               | So can I use the Disney system to simulate running on a
               | treadmill?
        
               | maximus-decimus wrote:
               | But on a threadmill you're going in a straight line and
               | usually at constant speed. A constant speed, you don't
               | have acceleration.
        
               | leereeves wrote:
               | Exactly, you don't have acceleration, and the world
               | around you isn't moving relative to you, so there's no
               | mismatch.
               | 
               | The treadmill shows that performing the walking movements
               | without acceleration doesn't generally cause motion
               | sickness.
        
               | c0pium wrote:
               | > you don't have acceleration
               | 
               | If you actually use a treadmill, or watch motion capture,
               | you'll see that this isn't the case. It's a lot of slight
               | accelerations and decelerations. The variation change
               | from person to person, and more experienced runners are
               | able to minimize them, but they're still present.
               | 
               | Edit: this study is peripherally related
               | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8160945/
        
               | leereeves wrote:
               | > It's a lot of slight accelerations and decelerations
               | 
               | Isn't that always true? If I pay attention to it, I
               | notice a lot of tiny movements of my head, as I just sit
               | here typing.
               | 
               | "You don't have acceleration" is just talking about the
               | big accelerations from 0 mph to roughly 3 mph to 0 mph,
               | not implying that you're completely motionless as if
               | frozen in ice.
        
               | 93po wrote:
               | You don't get motion sick on a treadmill because you're
               | not wearing a VR headset. There's no forward motion of
               | your head captured with your eyes to mismatch what your
               | vestibular system is feeling.
        
               | dr_kiszonka wrote:
               | To add to your point, there is a somewhat unpleasant
               | sensation once you get off the treadmill, i.e., even if
               | you are standing in place, it feels like you are moving
               | forward.
        
               | c0pium wrote:
               | This is incorrect. You don't get motion sick on a
               | treadmill because the small accelerations and
               | decelerations match what your eyes are seeing. There is
               | motion.
        
           | derefr wrote:
           | The simplest thing is air resistance / drag -- you can feel
           | yourself moving _through_ air (or any other fluid.)
           | 
           | But a sufficiently-clever mechanical VR system could blow air
           | at you as you move, so let's ignore that one.
           | 
           | Your inner ear is literally an accelerometer. When you
           | accelerate (or rotate your body around relative to a
           | gravitational pull), the liquid in your cochlea sloshes
           | around, and the hairs in it (which aren't just on the bottom
           | surface, but all around the sides and top as well) feel the
           | liquid as it passes by them and build an image of your
           | position and acceleration in space. (It's oddly similar to
           | how the wires in an old-school mercury tilt-switch
           | accelerometer interpret the mercury sloshing around. Just
           | with a lot more pairs of wires!)
           | 
           | Also, you've got an _interoceptive_ sense: your organs are
           | somewhat free to move inside your body; and so, as you
           | experience g-forces, your internal organs continue to move a
           | bit after your body is stopped -- and you experience this
           | relative displacement of your organs as a _familiar and
           | intuitive_ "lurching" sensation.
           | 
           | When your inner-ear accelerometer signal fails to cohere with
           | your overall computed sense of motion, you get the feverish-
           | dizzy, lacking-air, mentally-induced-nausea feeling of
           | carsickness.
           | 
           | When your interoceptive signal fails to cohere with your
           | overall computed sense of motion, you get the _bad_ kind of
           | "lurching sensation" -- which, if it happens enough times,
           | causes a unique kind of acute "body load" nausea purely
           | localized within the gut (something common among riders of
           | rollercoasters with negative-g-force moments.)
        
             | nickthegreek wrote:
             | I almost always put a fan on me in in VR. It helps keep me
             | cool and I use it to know which direction I'm facing.
        
               | chungus wrote:
               | +1, honestly essential. Allows me to go for hours playing
               | Jet Island
        
             | crazygringo wrote:
             | So here's the first thing I thought of: remember those
             | "spaceship" amusement park rides that sat about a dozen
             | people, with the space adventure playing on the front
             | "window", and it tilted front/back and side/side to
             | simulate the effects of acceleration and deceleration.
             | 
             | And I don't think there's any way of actually telling
             | whether you're accelerating or tilting, as long as you keep
             | the forces within a certain limited range?
             | 
             | Which immediately makes me wonder -- what if you put this
             | HoloTile floor on top of a platform that can tilt on both
             | axes? What if the moment it starts to detect you walking
             | forwards, it tilts "uphill" in the direction you're
             | walking? When you suddenly stop walking, it tilts backwards
             | slightly for a split second, then resets to level.
             | 
             | Because this actually matches what our body experiences on
             | a sidewalk -- when we walk forwards we actually tilt our
             | body slightly forwards as we accelerate, and tilt it
             | backwards briefly to stop. (Same as a Segway does, if
             | that's easier to picture.)
             | 
             | So if the floor tilts... would that be good enough to
             | complete the illusion, and send the right signals to the
             | inner ear? Because the liquid in your cochlea is now
             | sloshing around in the right way? The interoception is
             | matching as well?
        
           | codexb wrote:
           | Movement is relative, momentum is not. Run as fast as you can
           | and then come to a screeching halt where you lean backwards.
           | You can't do that on treadmill. You might be able to simulate
           | the screech and the lean by moving you on the treadmill, but
           | the rest of your body can feel that relative motion.
        
       | namuol wrote:
       | When it comes to VR, for theme park use it's hard to see how this
       | would be more cost effective than a large open space, maybe with
       | many floors stacked to maximize throughput. For home use this
       | seems like it will never be cheap enough to be worth it. It's
       | very cool tech, though.
        
       | alex_young wrote:
       | The videos make this floor look slick as ice. I wouldn't want to
       | walk around on something like that with a vr headset on. Sounds
       | like a recipe for a broken arm.
        
       | mellosouls wrote:
       | This really doesn't seem that new, just a neater implementation
       | of prior competitor products like KatWalk and Virtuix Omni
        
       | samstave wrote:
       | What would happen if the interior of a tube was lined with these,
       | could they move an object cylinder through the tube?
       | 
       | What if you have the exterior covered in these, could they move
       | (easily) a donut surrounding it?
       | 
       | What happens if you have these face each other?
       | 
       | can these be use for super slippery loading sled-tracks in ships,
       | planes, trains? Whats the weight limits?
       | 
       | Can they be scaled down really small and basically put around a
       | cable-line to slide things along like a zipline?
        
       | dudeinjapan wrote:
       | Its nice to see Disney doing something other than destroying the
       | movies, cartoons, and comics I loved as a kid.
        
       | derefr wrote:
       | This is neat and all, but it seems to be yet another attempt to
       | solve the (to me less-interesting) problem of how to have people
       | use their feet as _input_ for navigation in VR, while keeping
       | them stationary; rather than an attempt at actually creating any
       | high-fidelity sensation of _moving through space_ in VR,
       | according to your own human  "internal accelerometer". (I.e. the
       | sense you have that combines inputs from your inner ear, wind
       | against your skin, interoception as g-forces smush your organs
       | around, etc.)
       | 
       | I presume that doing the latter would necessarily involve
       | allowing you to _actually move away from center_ within a bounded
       | space -- and then subtly re-centering you whenever you 're _not_
       | moving.
       | 
       | Has any company ever put effort into developing a VR floor
       | technology that works more like that? One that allows you to
       | actually feel like you're moving?
       | 
       | I bring this up, because it seems like the technology on display
       | here _could_ actually be made to do something akin to this, with
       | a few more tweaks:
       | 
       | 1. build a large room covered in this surface;
       | 
       | 2. configure the surface to _not_ actively slide you around while
       | you 're moving, but instead, to only begin "re-centering" you
       | when you stay still (or when you are walking slowly enough that
       | your "internal accelerometer" isn't receiving much input anyway);
       | 
       | 3a. design the VR experiences consumed through such a platform,
       | so that you'd _mostly_ only have reason to walk, with  "free-
       | roam" areas where running would _make sense_ only lasting a few
       | seconds at a time, broken up with dialogue  / interactions / etc.
       | to give the floor time to re-center you.
       | 
       | 3b. Or, if these are VR _games_ , then as another option, use a
       | stamina system in the game that depletes as you run in real life
       | (bonus if your character's stamina drains exponentially the
       | further you get from the center of the floor); and have the
       | player wear a force-feedback resistance system (i.e. a TENS unit
       | on their legs) that effectively cripples you physically from
       | doing any more running, for as long as your character is out of
       | stamina. (Verisimilitude!)
       | 
       | 4. Either way, you probably still need a fallback if you manage
       | to get near the edge of the room somehow. Like if you're
       | completely ignoring what's happening on-screen and just running
       | in a scene where your character is supposed to be stationary +
       | talking to someone. So have the floor _actively_ re-center you,
       | like is shown here, only when you get near the edge -- and
       | hyperbolically, with more force as you get closer to the edge.
       | 
       | 5. Some impetuous people will run full-tilt just to see if they
       | can overcome the floor. So make sure to pad the walls. :)
       | 
       | That being said, while I think that kind of set-up might
       | _work_... the real trouble with it is that a passive system doesn
       | 't prevent people from bumping into one-another. Which is fine if
       | players' real-world positions are meant to correlate 1:1 with
       | their in-game positions (or if, like in the demo video, there's
       | no true per-individual "VR", just a shared wraparound screen in
       | the room.) But it probably means that for true "immersive VR
       | worlds" (i.e. a hypothetical VRMMO), you'd need one huge room
       | _per player_. And that 's a bit impractical, price- and space-
       | wise!
        
       | furstenheim wrote:
       | So annoying, it detects where I'm connecting from and redirects
       | changing the language
        
       | jnsie wrote:
       | Super cool but I'm guessing a long way to go. Notice that nobody
       | lifts their feet when walking on this. I'm not sure if it's fear
       | (those small careful steps conjure images of people ice skating
       | for the first time) or if the tech doesn't work well in that
       | scenario.
        
       | pmcf wrote:
       | Beyond the VR thing. I keep thinking this could have more
       | immediate impact on manufacturing and logistics. Imagine a
       | delivery truck with this on the floor that could optimally
       | organize packages dynamically.
        
       | Ringz wrote:
       | What if I could now tilt the platform - on which the HoloTiles
       | are mounted - in all directions?
        
       | crystaldecanter wrote:
       | now do climate change
        
       | mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote:
       | This is really neat.
       | 
       | Although in Star Trek, holodecks never had such a feature.
       | Instead the simulation would use trickery to make sure you're
       | never lead into the wall. E.g it would use illusions to trick you
       | into thinking you're walking straight, but you're actually
       | walking in a circle.
        
         | vlovich123 wrote:
         | In Star Trek holo decks used whatever convenient plot device
         | that was necessary for the story.
        
         | AuryGlenz wrote:
         | That explanation totally falls apart when you have a bunch of
         | people in the holodeck at once, unless each person was being
         | shown something different.
        
           | mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote:
           | True, but I also don't get why you'd want multiple people in
           | the same holotiled room if they're just wearing headsets and
           | staying in the same spot(due to the holotiles) anyway.
        
         | tempestn wrote:
         | Something like this could be considered such an illusion,
         | explained in layman's terms.
        
       | searealist wrote:
       | Nobody walks like that. I guess it only works if walk like a
       | teenager sneaking out of the house late at night.
        
       | dubeye wrote:
       | Control immersion is massively overated. WASD won for a reason
        
       | jedberg wrote:
       | In the video they ask, "where do you see this tech being used"
       | and then seconds later show us someone moving a file cabinet with
       | their mind.
       | 
       | I'm guessing the first place we will see this is in some live
       | action Star Wars show to make things move with the Force.
        
       | jorvi wrote:
       | Disney researches / develops some really cool stuff. Their Disney
       | Research Hub channel is a goldmine.
       | 
       | One of my favorites is Touche. The world becomes your
       | touchscreen: https://youtu.be/E4tYpXVTjxA?si=Sbh97JURR9NGdeiS
        
         | Etheryte wrote:
         | This is really cool tech, but the first application concept is
         | hilarious [0]. If you hook a cereal bowl up to this device, you
         | can have it make a loud sound if your child puts their hand in
         | the bowl as opposed to using a spoon? That's simultaneously
         | funny and utterly dystopian.
         | 
         | [0] https://youtu.be/E4tYpXVTjxA?si=5XEqcynBDerfpQ6P&t=173
        
       | thih9 wrote:
       | But what about inertia? Is there a way to eliminate that?
        
       | darepublic wrote:
       | Very cool but the killer app, watching someone sprint in place
       | with a blindfold on is not seen
        
       | imwillofficial wrote:
       | When did IGN become a ad riddled hell hole?
        
       | undotoday wrote:
       | Outside of VR, there's some other future uses (with the big
       | assumption it will be easy & cheap to implement some years in the
       | future) that are interesting if you have a floor that can direct
       | people/objects.
       | 
       | Somewhere of course like a Disney theme park or an airport where
       | you choose your destination and you're shuttled to your gate with
       | your luggage following.
       | 
       | Or perhaps a secure room/floor in a building that if you don't
       | have authorization to you simply cannot walk into without being
       | pushed out of it.
       | 
       | If we go dystopian, imagine a business suspects you of
       | shoplifting and simply doesn't let you leave, or shuttles you to
       | security automatically.
        
       | golemotron wrote:
       | Nice but Teamlab put Disney behind a while ago. They have no
       | answer yet.
        
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       (page generated 2024-01-27 23:00 UTC)