[HN Gopher] PinePhone review after a month of daily driving
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       PinePhone review after a month of daily driving
        
       Author : yaky
       Score  : 91 points
       Date   : 2024-01-26 18:05 UTC (4 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (yaky.dev)
 (TXT) w3m dump (yaky.dev)
        
       | Aachen wrote:
       | > To install an OS, you flash an image to an SD card, put it in
       | the PinePhone and turn it on. That's it. You can swap OSes by
       | changing SD cards
       | 
       | That's really cool actually!
       | 
       | Also think of making backups: just plug the sdcard into your
       | laptop and copy the data.
       | 
       | But then also this..
       | 
       | > [...] repeated, unpredictable problems both placing and
       | receiving calls [...]
       | 
       | > _Notifications_ TLDR: Only calls and SMS notifications are
       | truly real-time.
       | 
       | So the only way someone can reliably reach you is via SMS, which
       | basically means sending an explicit money-costing notification to
       | me whenever I'm not already online and hoping I hear the single
       | ping.
       | 
       | That suits a pocket computer, but not for a phone :(
       | 
       | The keyboard descriptions are also interesting: no suggestions
       | makes it basically unusable unless it comes with a physical
       | keyboard or you want to have typos in every sentence. I've got a
       | "hacker keyboard" enabled on my android as well, but only turn it
       | on when doing terminal things. I tried typing normally on that
       | and I don't think it would reasonably work after a lot of
       | practice either
        
         | jsheard wrote:
         | > That's really cool actually!
         | 
         | Cool on paper but SD cards have abysmal write endurance, as any
         | Raspberry Pi user will attest to.
         | 
         | Unless you trust the entire software stack to keep writes to a
         | minimum I wouldn't trust the SD card to last.
        
           | Aachen wrote:
           | I had this issue, presumably because I ran a Debian userspace
           | below Android with a file on the sdcard as filesystem. Every
           | ~3 years, the sdcard would just drop dead. (Other people
           | seemed to upgrade faster than every 3y or don't use sdcards
           | at all, so idk if it was just me.)
           | 
           | It hasn't happened anymore recently, and I feel like there's
           | more awareness/support for this type of usage pattern with
           | the higher-end sdcards that are somewhat recent (like,
           | introduced in the last ~8 years, so after the lifespan of an
           | old cheap sdcard, I'm still on my first new-style one and I'm
           | not yet sure it's not randomness that keeps it alive)
        
             | jsheard wrote:
             | If you _must_ use an SD card then there are industrial-
             | grade ones which use pSLC NAND and are meant to endure a
             | ton of abuse, but they 're very expensive compared to an
             | equivalent amount of reliable eMMC/USB/NVMe storage. IME
             | commodity SD cards are still a crapshoot.
        
           | nonrandomstring wrote:
           | Not so bad, SD cards can be robust. It depends on the file-
           | system and how much work the controller does to catch errors,
           | mark bad cells, etc.
           | 
           | I have a few portable handy recorders, a Zoom, a Tascam and a
           | Sound Devices, and all of them handle the same SD cards for
           | years, rarely complaining about format errors or losing
           | files.
        
         | squarefoot wrote:
         | > That's really cool actually!
         | 
         | It's cool but it's wrong: SD cards are unreliable.
        
         | zilti wrote:
         | Is there really any carrier that still charges for SMS?
        
       | d--b wrote:
       | > Verdict: PinePhone is a great mobile Linux device. I would use
       | it as my daily driver, and probably iron out some issues I ran
       | into, but for me, it failed at... being a phone. I had repeated,
       | unpredictable problems both placing and receiving calls, and I
       | could not resolve them. See below for details.
       | 
       | Yeah.
        
       | Tade0 wrote:
       | > Compare to Android, which involves unlocking the bootloader,
       | flashing recovery, booting into recovery, flashing an OS image,
       | and possibly patching the image to get root.
       | 
       | During the holiday break I installed Lineage OS on my father's
       | 10-year-old Motorola Moto G. Turns out in order to unlock the
       | bootloader you have to fill an online form and get a code that
       | unlocks it via email.
       | 
       | Additionally initially no custom recovery would install due to an
       | outdated bootloader. I managed to patch it using a script some
       | lone developer wrote for personal use.
        
         | charcircuit wrote:
         | >Turns out in order to unlock the bootloader you have to fill
         | an online form and get a code that unlocks it via email.
         | 
         | This is to combat groups of people who flash malicious OS
         | builds to phones and resell them to innocent people who have no
         | clue the phone they got is compromised.
        
           | okanat wrote:
           | Also many frequency bands that modern phones use are
           | regulated, especially heavily with LTE and later due to
           | mixings with the military and public service frequencies. The
           | baseband chips have modifiable software that can be stored in
           | the same flash memory.
           | 
           | The companies are trying to avoid the blame by creating a
           | paper trail, if someone modifies a phone to illegally
           | broadcast protected frequencies.
        
       | bhpm wrote:
       | So what is the bar for being a "great mobile Linux device" if it
       | doesn't include "reliably making phone calls"?
        
         | tekla wrote:
         | 1) Boots 2) Doesn't immediately crash.
         | 
         | My Pinephone seems to still have an issue with crashing
         | randomly all the time.
        
         | linmob wrote:
         | I think it's that software is not all bad. ;-)
        
         | yaky wrote:
         | 1. Great community
         | 
         | 2. It's mobile
         | 
         | 3. It's Linux
         | 
         | It did not reliably make phone calls *for me*. There are plenty
         | of people on forums and Reddit who use it.
        
       | cevn wrote:
       | Sadly I had a similar experience. Actually had the Pro too, which
       | was even more of a pain, IIRC because of having to press a reset
       | button to boot with a pin, it was really bad. The OG Pinephone
       | eventually would freeze every time I ran apk update on
       | Postmarketos, I think the internal mmc went bad after a year.
        
         | linmob wrote:
         | The eMMC issue sounds like really bad luck - mine is still fine
         | after more than three years (although I have moved on to other
         | mobile Linux devices a year ago, since they are faster).
        
       | Almondsetat wrote:
       | I don't know what to make of the fact that 2005 Nokia or
       | Blackberry feature phones had orders of magnitude better software
       | and performance than the PinePhone.
       | 
       | Mine is still sitting in a drawer. I take it out twice a year to
       | update it and see if the lock screen (a static image with a text
       | field) still lags and misses inputs
        
         | ParetoOptimal wrote:
         | > I take it out twice a year to update it and see if the lock
         | screen (a static image with a text field) still lags and misses
         | inputs
         | 
         | Yeah as soon as I got my pinephone and the lag on the lock
         | screen happened I had a sinking feeling it wasn't going to be
         | that great.
        
           | halcek wrote:
           | That's just a matter of software, not hardware. You can try
           | different UIs, SXMO's quite fun, for example.
        
             | ParetoOptimal wrote:
             | Well... you don't _know_ that until you go to the trouble
             | of installing different software which can be a significant
             | time investment if you haven 't done it before.
             | 
             | Also, I tinker with many of my devices but it would be
             | perfectly valid if the pinephone I purchased I wanted to
             | just work out of the box, at least to the extent where the
             | first screen doesn't lag on keyboard input.
             | 
             | That's a huge sign of immaturity at least in the QA process
             | (if one even exists).j
             | 
             | Mind you, I really want things like Pinephone to work and
             | be a viable alternative to the general ad/spyware infested
             | crap on the market.
        
             | em-bee wrote:
             | it is also the hardware.
             | 
             | my budget for a phone is about $150. i have been thinking
             | about getting a pinephone (with a keyboard) but that would
             | have been twice my budget, and after i saw a friend with
             | that having trouble getting the keyboard working, i passed
             | on it. before i had a fairphone 3, which i had received as
             | a gift, but its performance was worse than the $150 phone i
             | had before that. now however i got a very good deal
             | (slightly over my budget) on a refurbished 3 year old
             | oneplus nord that new would have cost $400. and boy, i have
             | never had a phone that was that good. not only is it much
             | faster, the battery lasts longer too.
             | 
             | i can now understand why people like to spend money on a
             | high end phone. i still won't spend that much but thanks to
             | refurbishing services i don't need to.
             | 
             | i really appreciate what fairphone and pinephone are doing.
             | we need these alternative phones. i had my share of them,
             | firefox phone, geeksphone. a sailfish based phone from
             | india, a samsung phone running tizen. i even got a second
             | hand openmoko very cheap because the owner was unsatisfied
             | with it. and i can really see the evolution.
             | 
             | the problem is that these phones are a few years behind the
             | curve and that the apps are written for high end phones.
             | (the fairphone was really struggling to run wechat)
             | 
             | so actually, in theory you should be right. there should be
             | software that is snapping fast even on these phones. i mean
             | even the openmoko had usable apps. but in practice, sadly
             | the hardware is simply a limitation.
             | 
             | perhaps in a few years phones will reach the same state
             | that desktop and laptop computers have now. they can only
             | speed up by adding more cores, and individual applications
             | can't really go any faster, so a 7 year old computer still
             | performs fine, even for my kids as a gaming device.
        
         | vdaea wrote:
         | >I take it out twice a year to update it and see if the lock
         | screen (a static image with a text field) still lags and misses
         | inputs
         | 
         | There are some people who do not notice things like this. Or
         | they don't give them importance. Fill your team with them and
         | get prepared for the shitfest.
        
         | yaky wrote:
         | On one hand, it's disappointing. On the other hand, most of the
         | PinePhone software has been developed, adapted, and patched by
         | enthusiasts. Many applications were never intended to work on
         | mobile devices in the first place. And no top-down direction.
         | Android and iOS have been around for 10+ years, and it would be
         | interesting to compare early Android to PinePhone now.
         | 
         | I believe PinePhones ship with Manjaro and Plasma Mobile, which
         | is notoriously slow and unstable, and is part of the reason why
         | I went with Phosh.
         | 
         | For a more feature-phone experience, there is an ongoing
         | project to put NuttX RTOS on PinePhone [0].
         | 
         | For a very performant and customizable but unusual (button
         | navigation, terminal-based) experience, there is SXMO [1]
         | 
         | 0: https://lupyuen.github.io/articles/pinephone2
         | 
         | 1:https://sxmo.org/
        
           | tetris11 wrote:
           | Phosh is amazing. I'm currently running it on an Alcatel Idol
           | 347 (2015) with 1.9GB using PostmarketOS, and it's just
           | snappy and responsive as any Android UI, using ~ 300MB in RAM
           | with the desktop. Very happy with it.
        
           | Muromec wrote:
           | SXMO was basically the only thing that didn't lag on
           | PinePhone for me. Which makes sense, as it's basically sway
           | with dmenu for phone interface. I was very excited about the
           | whole thing and even made the same scripts work for my
           | desktop sway with baresip, but then decided to just use a
           | normal reliable feature phone that looks cool.
        
         | rchaud wrote:
         | 2005 phones weren't running anything close to a desktop OS. A
         | more reasonable parallel would be the barely-released Nokia N9
         | from 2011 running MaemoOS. It was abandoned upon launch because
         | the company had already agreed to go exclusively with Windows
         | Phone OS.
         | 
         | With that said, I think 3GB RAM feels very low for a device
         | running this kind of software. Even the Nokia N9 had 1GB RAM.
        
       | Aachen wrote:
       | > UNLIMITED POWER!
       | 
       | > The "killer feature" of PinePhone is that you can SSH into it
       | as any other Linux machine
       | 
       | OP, you might be interested in Android I think. It runs a Linux
       | kernel, you can enable root access, and then use something like
       | Linux Deploy to install a distro of your choosing that runs as
       | though it's a normal app. I've been using that since my first
       | Android device and have been able to ssh into my phone "just like
       | any Linux machine" this whole time.
       | 
       | Indeed, I find it a killer feature and don't understand not more
       | people want to access their DCIM folder via sshfs (bookmark it in
       | the file manager for easy access, never get your phone out of
       | your pocket anymore to send a photo to PC) or make full-system
       | backups via something like restic. I also use qalc as calculator
       | on the command line whenever I need more than simple
       | multiplication. Fully recommended.
       | 
       | (Do use ssh keys instead of a password to avoid needing to type
       | some super strong password on the phone to connect to localhost,
       | since phones get taken into all sorts of untrustworthy WiFi
       | networks)
        
         | squarefoot wrote:
         | On one of my old tablets (Android 4 or 5) years ago I put and
         | configured Syncthing so that it would sync automatically all
         | user data to the home NAS running Nas4Free (now XigmaNAS).
         | Didn't make much use of it, but it worked.
        
         | cristoperb wrote:
         | Yes. Even without enabling root, you can install Termux[1] and
         | have a full Linux cli environment with ssh.
         | 
         | > don't understand not more people want to access their DCIM
         | folder via sshfs
         | 
         | I agree. I sync my camera folder with Syncthing[1], so as soon
         | as I take a photo it is available on my laptop.
         | 
         | 1: https://termux.dev/ 2 https://syncthing.net/
        
           | hmottestad wrote:
           | I can also recommend the Apple ecosystem. My phone and
           | MacBook keep, messages (and sms), contacts, calendar,
           | clipboard and also photos in sync.
        
             | alan-hn wrote:
             | Why not just recommend nextcloud. You can host it yourself
             | and it backs up and syncs your photos, calendar, contacts,
             | and other files automatically
             | 
             | And you get to own your data instead of relying on Apple
        
               | COGlory wrote:
               | Yeah I use NextCloud. It syncs contacts, calendars,
               | tasks, notes, news, podcasts, recipes(!), photos, and any
               | arbitrary files. If you don't want to self host, just get
               | a Hetzner storage share for $4/mo or whatever it is.
        
             | yaky wrote:
             | I disliked iOS for specifically being absurd about photos.
             | They are not considered "files" and therefore cannot be
             | synced by Mobius / Syncthing. I don't want to go through
             | the hassle of hosting Nextcloud to get photos from my phone
             | to my laptop when both are located on the same network.
             | 
             | (Not really relevant anymore since I don't own any Apple
             | devices)
        
               | hackmiester wrote:
               | This app is what you want. It can push the photos to NFS
               | or Samba over the network. https://www.photosync-app.com/
               | Maybe it will help someone who still uses an iPhone.
        
             | darkwater wrote:
             | Considering this is a post by and for Free Software
             | enthusiasts, I don't think they would.
        
             | asimovfan wrote:
             | I would definitely not recommend that ecosystem as you
             | can't even plug it into a computer and take things out of
             | it / put things in.
        
               | sodality2 wrote:
               | I can access my photos by plugging my iPhone into my
               | Linux or Windows PC.
        
         | xattt wrote:
         | I don't understand how the author can say KILLER FEATURE if
         | using the killer feature is impeded by a fundamental feature
         | (crappy screen).
         | 
         | I, too, had a stage where I was obsessed about some electronic
         | thing that had significant usability issues in day-to-day life.
         | 
         | In my case, it was a tri-band EU phone that could only do
         | GSM1900 on a North American network with shitty indoor
         | reception, and cost a pretty penny compared to what was on the
         | market at the time. Never again.
         | 
         | Edit: I misread the parent comment, and didn't realize the SSH
         | part.
        
           | heleninboodler wrote:
           | Maybe I'm misunderstanding you... how does the crappy screen
           | affect your experience when you're ssh'ing into it?
        
             | xattt wrote:
             | I misread the comment...
        
         | yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
         | > OP, you might be interested in Android I think. It runs a
         | Linux kernel, you can enable root access,
         | 
         | On average, that's not really true. Android uses badly modified
         | and unmaintained versions of Linux (the kernel), and both root
         | access and the ability to install a replacement operating
         | system are immensely variable depending on the vendor and the
         | exact model. Pine products typically maintain some degree of
         | downstream patches, but they are _trying_ to run mainline Linux
         | and do actually keep up with kernel updates, while also giving
         | the user root access out of the box by default, no caveats.
        
         | powersnail wrote:
         | > don't understand not more people want to access their DCIM
         | folder via sshfs
         | 
         | The thing is that, despite owning rooted Androids, pinephones,
         | and jailbroken iPhone (old days), I have found no real use
         | personally for all the unlocked potential of those devices,
         | beyond the fun and coolness of tinkering.
         | 
         | I need to access some photo from PC maybe once every year. I
         | don't edit photos, or categorize them, and if I were to share
         | them, it's likely that the channel already is on the phone.
         | 
         | Writing programs on the go? I have installed vim and emacs and
         | set up a lot of crazy stuff on phones, but at the end of the
         | day, I'd rather just carry a laptop. It's too hard to type on
         | the phone regardless of what program you install, and if
         | connected to a external keyboard, the screen is too small. I
         | just don't have a scenario where I want to write programs while
         | not able to bring a laptop.
         | 
         | In other words, the hardware and form factor is so limiting,
         | that I don't find unleashing the software to be much of a use,
         | even after spending a lot of time setting them up. I hope I can
         | find some practical reasons, because I really like the
         | tinkering, but I haven't.
         | 
         | (This is, of course, highly personal. A lot of people might
         | find many practical use cases.)
        
           | graphe wrote:
           | I used to set an 80% battery limit and want root for adblock
           | and backing up apps. With a desktop chrome equivalent it
           | becomes very useful even without root today.
           | 
           | The iPhone gets better and better but I jailbreak for a
           | clipboard that isn't a single paste.
        
         | kaanyalova wrote:
         | You can also use Kde Connect for file sharing using sshfs if
         | you don't want to configure it manually. The feature is called
         | "Filesystem Expose".
        
       | bonton89 wrote:
       | I wish there were more options for phones with hardware switches
       | like this.
        
       | WesolyKubeczek wrote:
       | > but for me, it failed at... being a phone.
       | 
       | Unfortunately, true for any "pure Linux" phone out there since
       | forever.
       | 
       | I used to have a Nokia N900 and root for it very very much, but
       | the dialer freezing and that infamous kernel bug when lots I/O
       | could make everything sluggish made it a necessity to also carry
       | a feature phone with my primary SIM around, too, just in case.
        
         | fsflover wrote:
         | >> but for me, it failed at... being a phone.
         | 
         | > Unfortunately, true for any "pure Linux" phone out there
         | since forever.
         | 
         | Not true for Librem 5, which is my daily driver. See also:
         | https://forums.puri.sm/t/librem-5-daily-driven-in-profession...
        
         | zilti wrote:
         | I was really hoping for the Astro Slide. Then the fxtex. Both
         | turned out to essentially be a scam. All other "pure Linux"
         | phones out there have hardware that is so laughably bad that I
         | almost take it as a personal insult.
        
       | spieglt wrote:
       | I haven't turned on my PinePhone in a long time because none of
       | the OSes was usable for more than a week at a time. Maybe I
       | should try postmarketOS again.
        
       | singpolyma3 wrote:
       | > Verdict: PinePhone is a great mobile Linux device. I would use
       | it as my daily driver, and probably iron out some issues I ran
       | into, but for me, it failed at... being a phone. I had repeated,
       | unpredictable problems both placing and receiving calls, and I
       | could not resolve them. See below for details.
       | 
       | Sounds like exactly what I want. It has been well over a decade
       | since I used my cell radio for anything but data.
        
         | nomel wrote:
         | For me, it is almost exclusively used for some sort of an
         | emergency, the last being a couple weeks ago, where I had to
         | call in for roadside service with a rental. You're not getting
         | through to customer service from the web. Most of my received
         | calls are also some sort of emergency.
         | 
         | I suppose if you have some reliable VoIP setup, it might work.
         | 
         | Regardless, it's shoddy, dumb, and shouldn't be celebrated.
        
           | lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
           | I've put a fair amount of thought into the decision to not
           | carry a phone everywhere I go and this beast always rears its
           | head. Obviously, there was a time when people didn't have
           | phones but society's more or less moved on; people generally
           | expect others to have one and social services reflect that.
           | 
           | Anyway, I think reading this comment kinda gave me my answer:
           | be selective about when I take my phone. Kinda the inverse of
           | the murderer not taking their phone when they go to hide the
           | body (I'm not planning to murder anyone); I just don't take
           | my phone unless I plan on being in a situation where there
           | will not be a good alternative to having my own means of
           | communication, e.g., a road trip or vacation. Traveling
           | within my city of residence will likely be feasible,
           | especially if I try to do so primarily with a vehicle smaller
           | than a car.
           | 
           | But yeah, if one has this idea, keep in mind that people
           | started taking their phones everywhere because they're useful
           | in many situations.
        
             | brnt wrote:
             | I had a Palm PDA and have kept using smartphones for
             | productivity apps, calendring, musical, photos as of the
             | beter part of a decade. The fact that it van place and
             | receiver calls really doesnt matter to me, but PDAs dont
             | exist anymore, and so, why not installatie a basic sim?
             | 
             | My 'phone' has been really useful to me so I take it
             | basically always with me, unless I specifically know I
             | don't need it (such as going for a swim). I don't take
             | calls if I don't feel like it, but very few people call me.
             | 
             | Do you not use you phone for other things than
             | communication?
        
               | lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
               | I do use my phone for other things but I could use a
               | "mobile Linux device" just the same and without the
               | snooping from cell towers, which is my primary concern
               | (for trivial, self-inflicted reasons to be fair). In
               | practical terms, my phone stays in my pocket until I'm
               | home anyway. To disincentivize me from using it outside
               | my home, I turn off mobile data, which has made it
               | obvious to me that I never use it in public and only
               | carry it around for fear of some emergent situation which
               | would otherwise be trivialized by the ability to
               | communicate over a long distance.
               | 
               | Also, something weird happened when I regained the
               | ability to avoid looking at a device in my hands: I
               | started to see that everyone is addicted to their phone.
               | Used to be that any time I had to wait for any length of
               | time, my first instinct was to pull out my phone. Now I
               | just look around and see everyone else do that. The
               | decision to leave my phone at home (with exceptions) is
               | an extension of that change in my habits.
        
             | bluGill wrote:
             | When people didn't carry a phone with them there were pay
             | phones all over that mostly worked. Not nearly as
             | convenient as a phone in your pocket and in rural areas
             | hard to find, but could count on one at every gas station,
             | fast food restaurant, and other such places: so they were
             | common. Today they are hard to find at all (and probably
             | don't work if you see one). Thus if you don't have a phone
             | with you, you will run into a worse time than in the past.
             | (OTOH, most people didn't use a pay phone ever - they were
             | expensive)
        
         | awestroke wrote:
         | Until you have to call 911 or equivalent and it doesn't work
        
           | bluGill wrote:
           | You can flag down someone to call 911 if it is an emergency.
           | Most people will be happy to help once you get their
           | attention. of course if it really is an emergency seconds
           | count and flagging down someone may cost a minute.
           | 
           | 911 is a free call, no sim needed. So if that is your only
           | concern a phone that you don't pay for may be fine.
        
             | soupfordummies wrote:
             | If you're at the point where you're flagging down a
             | stranger to call 911 in an emergency, why not just fully
             | "cut the cord" (no pun intended) and stop carrying a phone
             | at all?
        
             | earthling8118 wrote:
             | Flagging someone down to call for you isn't a workable
             | solution. For one, you could easily be nowhere near a city
             | and need to call from the middle of nowhere. For people in
             | the US (and I'm sure elsewhere), the cities are car centric
             | and you could easily be nowhere near anybody out walking
             | around.
             | 
             | A regular phone without a sim could work though
        
               | bluGill wrote:
               | The places so remote you cannot flag someone down are
               | also so remote that you don't have cell service. Most
               | roads that look untraveled still get a fair amount of
               | traffic and so someone will be along soon.
        
         | smt88 wrote:
         | You can easily configure an Android phone so that it _doesn 't_
         | make calls, but it's insane to have a phone that _can 't_ make
         | calls.
        
       | asah wrote:
       | I'd be ok with a phone-form-factor device that lacks cellular and
       | just uses apps over wifi for calls and messages. Kinda like the
       | old iPod Touch.
        
         | cesarb wrote:
         | A smartphone minus the cellular modem is just a PDA. Or rather,
         | the modern smartphone could be viewed as the fusion of the PDA
         | form factor and a cellular phone; this can be more clearly be
         | seen in early smartphones like the Treo 650. Before then, it
         | was common to have both as separate devices, and use Bluetooth
         | (or even IRDA!) to connect both so that the PDA could use the
         | cellular phone as a modem.
         | 
         | Unfortunately, like the current "smart TV" situation, it's
         | going to be hard to find a PDA-like device without a built-in
         | modem, since most people do want the built-in modem. There are
         | tablets, but even them seem to be gaining built-in modems
         | nowadays.
        
         | rchaud wrote:
         | I got the Onyx Boox Palma for this. Phone-size E-ink screen (no
         | SIM slot), Android + app store support under the hood.
        
           | xu_ituairo wrote:
           | How are you finding it?
        
       | delijati wrote:
       | I can recommend droidian or ubuntu touch (uborts.com) and if need
       | (for me it is) use waydroid to run android apps
       | https://docs.waydro.id/usage/install-on-desktops#ubuntu-debi...
        
       | system2 wrote:
       | For a promising phone, they have one of the most garbage websites
       | out there.
        
       | autoexec wrote:
       | All the open/pro-privacy/pro-consumer cell phones I've seen
       | (pinephone, Fairphone, Librem) never go far enough (non-open
       | cellular modems/wireless chipsets) while also being either
       | insanely priced, unobtainable, barely functional, scammy, broken,
       | or some combination of those things.
       | 
       | I _really_ want a product like that to succeed, but I 'm just not
       | seeing anything reasonable being produced.
        
         | NoboruWataya wrote:
         | Probably because developing and making those things is
         | extremely expensive. The "traditional" smartphone manufacturers
         | have far lower per-unit costs because of economies of scale and
         | because they externalise many of the production costs by using
         | low-paid labour and environmentally destructive practices.
         | (Some "open" phones probably externalise these costs as well,
         | but Fairphone in particular is so expensive because it tries to
         | avoid doing that.) Not to mention that those lower production
         | costs are then further subsidised by the manufacturers' efforts
         | to extract value from the user in other ways.
         | 
         | Every time someone tries to make an open/pro-privacy/pro-
         | consumer phone and doesn't produce a perfect product they get
         | heavily criticised, but I think they are up against some fairly
         | fundamental limitations. The fact that there isn't really a
         | satisfactory option out there despite numerous attempts
         | suggests to me that the problem is not with the specific
         | products or companies but something more fundamental. I don't
         | think it will ever be feasible for ethical phones to compete
         | with non-ethical phones on cost.
        
           | autoexec wrote:
           | I'll agree that major smartphone manufacturers will probably
           | always be able undercut them on price. I'd be more forgiving
           | on cost if they actually delivered a quality product,
           | especially one with open chipsets.
        
         | jancsika wrote:
         | > (non-open cellular modems/wireless chipsets)
         | 
         | > barely functional
         | 
         | > insanely priced
         | 
         | > I'm just not seeing anything reasonable being produced.
         | 
         | It's not reasonable to offer an affordable phone that also runs
         | an open source baseband OS that has been tested to work
         | reliably with the most popular carriers.
        
       | filmgirlcw wrote:
       | Things like the PinePhone and the Librem 5 are cool on paper but
       | if you can't use it reliably as a phone, it can't reliably work
       | in standby, the camera sucks, the battery life is anemic,
       | notifications suck, you can't stream music from it, and the best
       | thing you can say is "I can ssh into it," which is cool for sure
       | but I can do that (albeit with limitations) using iSH on iOS and
       | is possible to enable on a number of Android distros.
       | 
       | And I fully understand that that isn't the point. The point is
       | the hard work that has gone into this and the selective-amounts
       | of "freedom" (if we convince ourselves that the modems and
       | firmware in these things being absolutely not free software or
       | open doesn't to a certain extent obviate the entire thought
       | experiment) you get versus another platform. I get it. I'm glad
       | people are working on this stuff and having fun.
       | 
       | And at $200, the Pine Phone is at least cheap enough to try out
       | as a toy if you're into that kind of thing (I think I'd rather
       | jailbreak an older iPhone or use a modified Android device
       | running an alt-OS, but that's me). The Librem 5 is either $1000
       | or $2000 depending on what option you get, and that is to me,
       | only for people who either enjoy setting their money on fire or
       | who have been brainwashed by the marketing that it can do what it
       | cannot do for 99.99999% of the population.
       | 
       | I dunno. I don't like being a hater but I don't see the real
       | point of having a mobile phone that isn't a usable phone and that
       | is really only usable if plugged into power all the time and used
       | as a stationary mini computer (and thus, no longer mobile), of
       | which a person could build something much more powerful using a
       | Raspberry Pi or other single-board computer or a used NUC.
        
         | Hackbraten wrote:
         | > The Librem 5 is [...] only for people who either enjoy
         | setting their money on fire or who have been brainwashed by the
         | marketing
         | 
         | Mind that a huge chunk of the $1000 price point is due to cost
         | of mobile-friendly userspace development (e.g. phosh, phoc,
         | libhandy, libadwaita), driver development, and mainlining
         | drivers.
         | 
         | Paying for this is absolutely justified because it's important
         | work, and it benefits the mobile Linux community as a whole,
         | not just L5 owners.
        
       | qa_acc wrote:
       | My opinion is different: I had one and I found it a poor
       | platform, construction quality if sufficient to be generous.
       | Then, I had hardware problems and the assistance was a Kafkaesque
       | nightmare. I got rid of it and I took an old Pixel 3A on which I
       | installed Ubuntu Touch: I'm not totally satisfied but, waiting
       | for better Linux platform, IMHO it's another planet.
        
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