[HN Gopher] The Hawai'i Seaglider Initiative: A new approach to ...
___________________________________________________________________
The Hawai'i Seaglider Initiative: A new approach to travel between
the islands
Author : lisper
Score : 117 points
Date : 2024-01-23 04:49 UTC (18 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.hawaiiseaglider.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.hawaiiseaglider.org)
| hackernewds wrote:
| all this "Hawaii environment is fragile fly with us" hullabaloo
| to fly a 2 seater plane?
| ako wrote:
| Looks like there are other models that vary more than 2:
| https://www.regentcraft.com/
| mkl wrote:
| 12-seater, zero-emission: https://www.hawaiiseaglider.org/what-
| is-a-seaglider
| beaeglebeached wrote:
| Wonder if power generation in emissionless on the islands. I
| think sailboat handily beats this thing environmentally.
| gregman1 wrote:
| Wow, this technology is quite fascinating! It's possible that
| they might consider updating it to a more established version
| with greater capacity, which has been known and is operating
| since 1961.
|
| https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BE...
| Zanni wrote:
| You've linked to a hydrofoil boat, which is quite different.
| The Seaglider is _much_ faster, up to 180 mph (vs. the
| hydrofoils 77 kph / 48 mph).
|
| https://beatofhawaii.com/hawaii-seaglider-flies-forward-with...
| margalabargala wrote:
| OP may have been thinking of the Russian ekranoplans, which
| are similar nautical ground effect vehicles capable of 400+-
| mph.
| zh3 wrote:
| Perhaps you meant the "Caspian Sea Monster" [0] or similiar
| Ekranoplans? [1]
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_Sea_Monster
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-effect_vehicle
| greesil wrote:
| Is this like an Ekranoplane EV?
| andrewflnr wrote:
| Looks like it to me, too.
| petre wrote:
| Yes, this is the craft, the Regent Viceroy sea glider: 12+2
| crew, 3500 lbs payload, up to 156 nm range, 156 kt. It can fly
| an hour, might be okay for island hopping.
|
| https://www.regentcraft.com/seagliders/viceroy
| Animats wrote:
| When I go to the web sites of some of their "customers",
| there's no mention of this thing. Regent's own site says
| "Seagliders have 160 nautical mile range with existing
| battery technology (upgradeable to over 400 nautical mile
| range with next generation battery technology) and will enter
| service by 2025. Full-scale prototypes will begin human
| flight trials by 2024. Specifications and configuration are
| subject to change, images may not reflect the final vehicle
| design."
|
| I wonder what new battery technology they plan to use that
| they think will provide a 250% range increase. The 180mph top
| speed is impressive, but you're not going to be able to
| operate at that speed around other sea traffic.
|
| You need just the right situation for this thing - docks not
| too far apart, but far enough apart that an ordinary ferry is
| too slow. An area with so little sea traffic that it can go
| full speed. Long Beach to Catalina Island is out; you can't
| zip these things across a major shipping lane full of
| container ships. Wall Street to the Hamptons has the same
| problem. Not sure about inter-island in Hawaii. Probably more
| useful in areas with lots of small populated islands. East
| Asia, maybe.
|
| This thing is certainly buildable, but it seems to be more in
| the private jet category than a major transportation system.
| petre wrote:
| I know it's possibly vapour but I wish they build the craft
| and find a market for it to make it commercially viable. I
| was thinking Hawaii, Canary Islands, Azores, Balearic
| Islands, crossing between Sardinia and Corsica and from
| around Messina Sicily to mainland Italy, Japan, South Korea
| (eg. Wando-Jeju), NZ (eg. Wellington area to Waikawa or
| Picton). You don't need shipping port or ferry
| infrastructure for it, a smaller port or a marina with good
| acces to electricity might be enough. For the rest of SE
| Asia it might be too expensive, but it might be useful in
| the Philippines and Indonesia.
| brigade wrote:
| Hawaiian:
| https://newsroom.hawaiianairlines.com/releases/regent-
| announ...
|
| JAL: https://press.jal.co.jp/en/items/uploads/7bd1bf3e9623f
| 0ade78...
|
| Mesa: https://www.mesa-air.com/regent
|
| Mokulele (owned by Southern) links to news report about it
| on their home page: https://mokuleleairlines.com
|
| The investments are real, but at least some of them might
| be more about the optics of investing in zero emissions
| planes rather than actually expecting these to enter
| service
| krisoft wrote:
| > The 180mph top speed is impressive, but you're not going
| to be able to operate at that speed around other sea
| traffic.
|
| > you can't zip these things across a major shipping lane
| full of container ships.
|
| Why not? At the speed this thing is flying the container
| ships are almost stationary. If we take the Long Beach to
| Catalina Island example the flight time would be on the
| order of 10 minutes. If you take the full speed of a
| container ship they can travel around 5 miles under that.
| If you plot a course which avoids them by that much they
| can't jump in front of the plane even if they try.
| ugh123 wrote:
| This is where EVTOLs should have more prevalence in testing low-
| altitude runs, like 10s of feet, not 100s, where safety can be
| increased. Also regulation might be different for very low
| altitude flights.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| > _A preliminary survey of Hawai'i residents showed they are
| concerned that seagliders will only be affordable to the affluent
| and may result in an increased tax burden on Hawai'i's residents.
| The survey also showed that residents are concerned that
| seagliders may produce some form of ecological damage either near
| shore or in the areas surrounding the harbors. Others expressed
| their concern about how seagliders can potentially impact
| communities through an increase in visitors. All of these
| concerns are important to the Hawai'i Seaglider Initiative, and
| will be addressed as seagliders move forward in Hawai'i. We
| believe seagliders should bring the community together, not
| divide us. The goal of the Hawai'i Seaglider Initiative is to
| move forward with an open heart and mind as a unified community._
|
| so all the concerns are accurate and nothing will be done to
| create a different reality. understandable. cant wait to visit!
| ako wrote:
| Seems like the usual "all change is bad" reaction you see
| around most initiatives. All the alternatives have similar
| downsides or worse.
| hawaiianbrah wrote:
| pricing was projected to be pretty cheap compared with
| interisland flights today
| rtpg wrote:
| Wasn't there a ferry transportation service that got canned due
| to environmental concerns? Seems hard to imagine planes doing
| better on that front.
| thatfunkymunki wrote:
| It was canned because of lobbying by the local airlines and car
| rental joints which were way more established.
| anewhnaccount2 wrote:
| It's electric, whereas most boats still use pretty dirty fuel
| sources, however the damage possibilities from direct collision
| with wildlife are real.
| m-ee wrote:
| Wrong kind of environmental concerns from what locals have
| told me. The issues were more about increased traffic from
| Oahu to the less populated islands and people taking things
| that have been made more or less extinct on Oahu like opihi
| or the lava rocks used for cooking kalua pig.
| hawaiianbrah wrote:
| I thought the problem with the ferry was not doing the
| underwater environmental review
| taylorfinley wrote:
| The GP's post tracks with my recollection from the time.
| On the return leg of one of the very first trips to Maui
| three pickup trucks were found with beds full of lava
| rock, allegedly collected without permission or permits.
| This was the inciting incident that seemed to confirm the
| neighbor islands' residents fears that the Superferry
| would lead to plundering of cultural resources en masse
| (not to mention making existing overcrowding worse). On a
| subsequent trip to kauai a large number of protestors (or
| protectors I suppose, depending on your view) paddled out
| on surfboards and blocked the ferry's path at Nawiliwili.
|
| Here's a contemporaneous report about the lava rocks from
| an independent journalist: http://www.islandbreath.org/20
| 07Year/09-access&transport/070...
|
| The rocks weren't the direct cause of the Superferry
| shutting down, but in my recollection they sure charted
| the course that way: people who might have seemed to some
| like they were just fighting change to fight change
| suddenly had irrefutable evidence to confirm their fears.
| There were of course other legal challenges that actually
| led to the shutdown, bankruptcy, and subsequent
| abandonment of the vessels. But at the time, on the
| neighbor islands, it sure crystalized the opposition.
| rtpg wrote:
| So then the question becomes: does a theoretical "boat with
| electric motor" succeed more or less with energy efficiency.
| I say theoretical, but I feel like you could take any ferry
| and replace the motor with an electric one? Maybe that's not
| true.
| blkhawk wrote:
| its a ground effect plane - they can be a bit more efficient vs
| traditional ferries and airplanes especially in a role were it
| just relatively short hops between islands.
|
| Also since its effectively float-able by design it has the
| potential to be very safe even if its propulsion breaks during
| the trip. you could just send another plane to take the
| passengers off then take the broken plane home pulled by a
| ship. This capability should be designed in.
|
| The limited trip length might even lend itself to concepts that
| are fully or partially battery powered.
|
| one downside is that the plane might not be able to be used in
| rougher weather.
| hawaiianbrah wrote:
| It's all electric, yes
| rtpg wrote:
| Can a ground effect plane really be more efficient than a
| ferry or a hyperfoil? It just seems like a boat that can
| carry cargo etc would be useful infrastructure instead of a
| fast taxi service. Pour que no los dos perhaps...
|
| To be clear, what I read about the ferry service being shut
| down made it sound like Hawaii has some dysfunction
| preventing good and normal things from happening, just sounds
| like this would be less feasible
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| Efficiency is not the only metric here. Water has a lot of
| friction. That's why boats are relatively slow and use a
| lot of fuel or electricity. A ferry with hundreds of miles
| range would need a huge battery. With distances between
| islands being tens to hundreds of miles (depending on the
| route), the speed also matters. For cargo that matters less
| obviously.
|
| This thing is electric and flies over the water. So it uses
| way less power per mile than if it was a boat in the water.
| And likewise because it flies in ground effect, it has an
| advantage over electrical planes as well. Hydrofoils might
| be close enough but still use more power and are probably
| also a lot slower.
|
| The cost of the electricity is less of a concern here since
| electricity is cheap. The main efficiency related concern
| is the impact it has on range as batteries are expensive
| and heavy. Distances in Hawaii are not enormous but long
| enough that you'd have to worry about this. So, given that
| this thing has the needed range, it should be quite
| attractive as an alternative to planes. Cheaper and cleaner
| to operate (presumably) and quick enough that the
| difference doesn't matter. And a lot faster than ferries or
| hydrofoils.
| zardo wrote:
| > And likewise because it flies in ground effect, it has
| an advantage over electrical planes as well.
|
| It better be able to fly out of ground effect as well, or
| service would have to be suspended whenever the sea state
| doesn't allow it.
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| That's true for ferries and hydro planes as well.
| Generally flying in rough weather is also not great.
| bink wrote:
| The channels between the Hawaiian islands can be very rough.
| I'd be curious how well these things would do if they lost
| power.
| henrikschroder wrote:
| The superferry was canned because of lobbying by airlines and
| car rental companies.
|
| Currently, the only way to travel between the islands is by
| actual airplanes, through airports, with all the annoyances
| that comes with that, TSA, security, bag checks, prohibited
| items, and a gazillion other rules. That's what this thing will
| compete against, and it's pretty much a slam dunk.
|
| Unless it will be lobbied to death like the predecessors.
| fallingknife wrote:
| Why would the rental car companies care?
| Cerium wrote:
| As with many ferries, the Superferry could let you bring
| your vehicle with you on the trip. The rental car companies
| would care because that would reduce their business as many
| locations in Hawaii are best accessible via private
| vehicle.
| ghaff wrote:
| Though aside from Honolulu (I assume, haven't been there
| specifically), most of the airports in Hawaii are pretty
| small, laid-back affairs. They're really not a big deal to
| fly in and out of.
|
| There were also a lot of environmental protests against the
| Superferry that I doubt can all be chalked up to car rental
| and airline lobbying.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii_Superferry
| beaeglebeached wrote:
| TSA afaik isn't even required for intrastate flights as
| intrastate travel isn't fed jurisdiction. In Alaska they
| don't even metal detect for weapons intrastate last time I
| flew.
|
| If they're keeping TSA for intrastate flightd it's just as
| a fed funded voluntary jobs program for low IQ
| undereducated people to not have to rely on state welfare .
| ghaff wrote:
| Your elitist commentary aside. The issue is probably more
| that at small Hawaii airports that have both service back
| to the mainland and inter-island flights, they just don't
| bother to separate the two pools of passengers.
|
| I have done an inter-island flight from smaller small
| prop plane terminal in Kona adjacent to the main (but
| still small) terminal and I'm guessing I didn't have a
| security screening in that case.
| whalesalad wrote:
| I lived there right as the superferry got announced/released.
| Then in the same time span, almost overnight, it was shut down.
| Absolutely insane. It was a great solution.
|
| The fact that you could bring your car to another island was
| epic. These planes cannot do that.
| laborcontract wrote:
| This is so cool, I hope they try to coral a diverse collection of
| local stakeholders because these things in hawaii tend to die by
| the hand of protestors who are a very vocal minority.
| freitasm wrote:
| Something also planned for New Zealand too:
| https://www.oceanflyer.co.nz/
| mkl wrote:
| Neat! I couldn't see where they intend to run it (though it may
| be hidden in an article). They give a 300km range, which is
| almost exactly Christchurch-Wellington, so I wonder if that's
| possible.
| slyall wrote:
| A bit more information here:
|
| https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/128397643/transport-
| revolut...
|
| "Ocean Flyer's seagliders would be able to fly people between
| Wellington and Lyttelton in an hour for $60 a seat, or
| between Auckland's Viaduct Harbour and Whangarei in 30
| minutes for $30, Aslam forecast."
|
| Feels pretty speculative
| phire wrote:
| Christchurch to Wellington is a bit of a stretch for the
| range.
|
| It's too far to use the Harbour infrastructure at either end.
| You would have to build a pier on the southern side of
| Wellington (say Island Bay) and then use New Brighton pier.
| That works out to about 295 km.
|
| With only 300km range, it's hard to find good routes in NZ.
| mkl wrote:
| According to
| https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/128397643/transport-
| revolut... they do intend to do Christchurch-Wellington.
| Possibly only with the bigger 100-seater ones they've
| ordered though.
| rgmerk wrote:
| Pretty sure it's the same vehicle (plane? boat?) proposed for
| this one.
| Animats wrote:
| It's an ekranoplan. The USSR made several. The actual vehicle is
| from a company called Regent.[1] They do have a quarter-scale
| prototype, and a video. This web site is from some group trying
| to get funding for a service.
|
| The current Regent ekranoplan, not yet shipping, is a 12
| passenger model. That seems small for an inter-island ferry. It
| would be faster than a ferry, but since the existing inter-island
| ferry routes only run about an hour, more speed may not be worth
| the trouble.
|
| Probably just a tourist attraction.
|
| [1] https://archive.is/CkcJI
| Simon_ORourke wrote:
| The Ekranoplan, or so-called Caspian Sea Monster, was truly
| massive, and could no doubt fit several of these puny tourist
| versions in its hold. For these kind of endeavours you'd really
| want to go big or home - there's a limited enough tourist
| market if all you're planning to transport is some sightseers
| without any luggage!
|
| Something that could take a few shipping containers,
| automobiles, passengers etc. however, you'd think there would
| be a greater demand for something like that.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > The Ekranoplan, or so-called Caspian Sea Monster, was truly
| massive,
|
| Ekranoplan is a class of vehicles; the "Caspian Sea Monster"
| was an individual experimental ekranoplan (the Lun-class was
| a later large combat ekranoplan, with a short career.)
|
| > For these kind of endeavours you'd really want to go big or
| home
|
| I don't know, I think for commercial ventures without
| bottomless military funding backing, starting small makes
| sense, there's lots of places small tourist ekranoplans could
| find a market.
| bink wrote:
| Which inter-island ferry are you referring to? Hawaii doesn't
| have them.
| XEKEP wrote:
| see Maui to Lanai ferry https://go-lanai.com/
| bink wrote:
| Interesting. That's only the very short trip between Maui
| and Lanai though. Still an improvement over the zero
| ferries that existed back when I lived there.
| noduerme wrote:
| I'm not sure where you're getting this. There are no inter-
| island ferries anymore in Hawaii, except for the short tourist
| hops from Maui to Lanai and Molokai. Much longer trips between
| the big island, Maui and Oahu were possible for a couple years
| up until 2009 on the Superferry, but it closed after years of
| legal wrangling over environmental issues.
| pinot wrote:
| Big Island never got superferry. Back in the 70s there was
| Seaflite on Boeing hydroplanes that was short lived as well.
| johnwalkr wrote:
| Not sure why the Boeing 929 was a failure in so many
| places, but you can still ride them in Japan and Hong Kong.
| The experience is fun --they are fast, security is light
| and the vessels are retro-futuristic. I rode one from Tokyo
| to Izu-Oshima and it was 1:45 vs 6:00 for the normal ferry.
| bruce511 wrote:
| >> Probably just a tourist attraction.
|
| Yes and no. One the one hand, absolutely a tourist attraction.
| Its projected to be cheaper than flying, and hopes to be a lot
| less hassle. (Expect pushback from the airlines. )
|
| However small capacity, cheap, accessible transport is a boon
| for islanders living in archipelago. For starters you're not
| bound to islands big enough for an airport.
|
| Given that the vehicle is electric, and hawaii has abundant
| solar energy, it could end up being very cost effective.
|
| So what starts small, and touristy, might end up being
| mainstream and useful in lots of similar (ie island) contexts.
|
| On the environmental front I expect the usual "complain about
| anything new" crowd, coupled with push-back from existing
| operators. But it's hard to see how this does more
| environmental harm than planes or boats.
| eesmith wrote:
| > for starters you're not bound to islands big enough for an
| airport.
|
| The competition for that space is seaplanes, including both
| floatplanes and flying boats, which have been around for a
| century. Electric versions of those exist, like
| https://harbourair.com/corporate-
| responsibility/goingelectri... , and https://el-fly.no/ wants
| to build an electric amphibious flying boat.
|
| Yes, a ground-effect vehicle has better wing efficiency than
| an aircraft. However, it has disadvantages, like how it
| handles waves. A flying boat, for example, only needs to
| worry about the waves at the departure and arrival locations,
| which may be in a protected harbor or channel, while a GEV
| must deal with larger waves between the islands.
|
| See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-
| effect_vehicle#Advantag... for additional comparisons.
|
| > So what starts small, and touristy
|
| I flew on a seaplane between the US and the Bahamas, https://
| en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalk%27s_International_Airlin... . It
| was a fun touristy thing, but not touristy enough to maintain
| a commercial seaplane service.
|
| > On the environmental front I expect the usual "complain
| about anything new" crowd
|
| Thing is, this isn't new. Ground effect vehicles have been
| around for decades, the technology is pretty mature, and the
| problems also pretty well known. If someone cracks that nut -
| great! - but a lot of people have tried and failed to extend
| its use outside of some niche areas. That history of failure
| tends to dampen enthusiasm.
|
| > But it's hard to see how this does more environmental harm
| than planes or boats.
|
| That calculation is not easy. If you want to minimize
| environmental harm the most, switch to sailboat. Cook used no
| fossil fuels to travel to and around Hawaii, and neither did
| the Polynesians who discovered the place.
|
| If you want to minimize CO2 emissions, ban all inter-island
| flights and switch to ferries -
| https://ourworldindata.org/travel-carbon-footprint says
| ferries emit about 1/7th of the CO2 as short-haul flights.
|
| And there are electric ferries these days, like
| https://www.electrive.com/2021/03/02/worlds-largest-
| electric... , though that's not ocean going. See
| https://electrek.co/2023/01/17/worlds-largest-electric-
| ferry... for one in the works.
| bruce511 wrote:
| >> The competition for that space is seaplanes, including
| both floatplanes and flying boats
|
| Airplanes operate in a hostel environment where the penalty
| for failure is severe. The translates into a lot of (good)
| regulation which makes planes expensive to make, and
| expensive to maintain.
|
| Ground effect vehicles are more in the car/boat space when
| it comes to mechanical failure. Sure I'm not saying it can
| be made of some wire and duct tape, but the necessary
| mechanical standard is a -lot- lower (ie cheaper.)
|
| >> . If you want to minimize environmental harm
|
| Sure. Or stay home. There's always something better. But
| that wasn't the hypothesis. The statement was that its
| better than planes or (motor) boats.
|
| Frankly, if an electric craft is charged from solar or
| wind, its already as good as a sailboat.
| eesmith wrote:
| > which makes planes expensive to make, and expensive to
| maintain
|
| Understood. Though as the comparison link mentions,
| there's another important cost - "limited utility has
| kept production levels low enough that it has been
| impossible to amortize development costs sufficiently to
| make GEVs competitive with conventional aircraft".
|
| I don't pretend to have more than a surface knowledge
| about topic, but when the idea has been around decades,
| developed and promoted for decades, and is still only a
| niche mode of travel (along with hovercraft, hydrofoil,
| and flying boats), that tells me the doubts aren't simply
| from those who "complain about anything new".
|
| > The statement was that its better than planes or
| (motor) boats.
|
| Sure. My comment was to point out how complicated the
| full calculation was, because it should include the
| electric ferries that becoming available, and not limit
| itself to motor boats.
| Animats wrote:
| > Ground effect vehicles are more in the car/boat space
| when it comes to mechanical failure.
|
| Not quite. This thing depends on dynamic stability. If a
| wingtip touches the water at speed, it will probably
| flip. It has to turn without banking. So it has many of
| the stability and control problems of an aircraft at
| landing, plus some of the wave problems of a seaplane.
| It's not like a big, wide hovercraft, where, if you lose
| power, you just settle down into boat mode.
| brigade wrote:
| The airlines are the ones already investing and planning on
| operating these, first as an alternative to their Cessnas and
| other <30 seat commuter planes. The real question is whether
| these actually materialize or if Regent goes the way of
| basically every previous aviation startup.
|
| Certainly claiming these could be in service next year is a
| _tad_ over optimistic.
| jessriedel wrote:
| > It's an ekranoplan. The USSR made several.
|
| No, this is a combination ekranoplan and hydrofoil. I think
| whether it's classified as the "world's first" is going to
| depend on what counts as operational, but it's certainly much
| less common than ekranoplans.
| magicalhippo wrote:
| As an aside, rctestflight over on YouTube has made a number of
| attempts[1] at making a good RC ground-effect vehicle. Due to
| physics this is a lot harder for smaller vehicles.
|
| [1]:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3heh9swH2Zw&list=PLXvxJNOIXB...
| wkat4242 wrote:
| The USSR one in your link isn't even the craziest ekranoplan :)
| This one was huge and used 8 jet engines:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lun-class_ekranoplan . It looks
| to me like a failed Kerbal Space Program experiment (moah
| engines!) but curiously enough it was in actual operational
| service.
|
| The one in the link actually looks fairly sane, it's smaller
| and powered by only 1 turboprop by the looks of it (edit: nope
| it has 2 turbofans in the nose too).
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-90_Orlyonok
|
| Edit: oops I see it was already mentioned sorry. I was reading
| on mobile.
| happyopossum wrote:
| > but since the existing inter-island ferry routes only run
| about an hour, more speed may not be worth the trouble
|
| What inter-island ferry routes? There aren't any, and when
| there were many of the routes were muuuuuch longer than an
| hour. The I harbored portion of the island chain is almost 300
| miles long - a trip from Hilo to Honolulu would be ~240 miles.
| chipsa wrote:
| The small size is actually the point? One of the big problems
| with the Superferry was the places the ferry went, didn't want
| to have a bunch of people showing up at once cheaply for...
| NIMBY reasons.
| eru wrote:
| Thank the Jones Act for making travel between the islands (and
| between the islands and the US mainland) harder than it should
| be.
|
| See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Marine_Act_of_1920
| gottorf wrote:
| Doesn't this not apply in Hawaii, since there's a state law (or
| multiple laws) that effectively forbid ferries between the
| islands? IIRC it was to avoid environmental cross-
| contamination.
| throw0101d wrote:
| Seems that attempts at ferry service failed commercially:
|
| * https://old.reddit.com/r/geography/comments/175un38/why_doe
| s...
|
| > _Ferry operations were suspended in March 2009 after the
| Hawaii Supreme Court ruled that a state law allowing the
| Superferry to operate without a second complete environmental
| impact statement was unconstitutional.[2] The company went
| bankrupt as a result of these actions preventing service in
| Hawaii.[3] On July 2, 2009 a Delaware Bankruptcy Court
| granted the company 's motion to abandon both the ships
| Alakai and Huakai, ending all possibilities that the company
| might return to Hawaii;[4] the ships were bought by the US
| Maritime Administration in 2010.[5] The United States Navy
| eventually purchased the craft for a total of $35M, a small
| fraction of their original $180M cost.[6]_
|
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii_Superferry
| pavon wrote:
| I can definitely see the big negative impact on transportation
| of goods to/from Hawaii as a result of that law, as foreign
| ships can't stop at Hawaii to offload (and or pickup) goods and
| then continue on to the continental US.
|
| But I'm not seeing why it would be bad for a local ferry. The
| sailors operating the ferry are going to be living on the
| islands, so requiring them to be legal permanent residents
| doesn't seem too onerous. And these don't have enough range to
| be traveling to foreign islands so that complication doesn't
| apply.
| jongjong wrote:
| What happens if the hydrofoil hits a large dolphin, shark, whale
| or other large sea creature?
|
| Sea animals collide with motor boats occasionally but this
| Seaglider would be even more likely to do so because:
|
| - It doesn't produce as much underwater noise as a motor which
| would normally serve to alarm sea animals.
|
| - It goes a lot faster, giving sea animals less time to react.
|
| Then there is the concern about what a collision would cause to
| the Seaglider itself if the hydrofoil broke off or worse, didn't
| break off and caused the Seaglider to plunge, nose first, into
| the ocean.
|
| The other thing to be concerned about are sub-surface rocks. If a
| boat goes over a rock that's hidden just below the surface, it
| can badly damage the boat and motor and can cause death, but
| again, the faster you go, the more damage can be done.
| jouleshey wrote:
| That's my concern too. A whale at high speeds can't be safe
| gilbertbw wrote:
| It's only hydro-foiling on take-off and landing, in flight it's
| a plane in ground effect flying just above the sea.
| jongjong wrote:
| Tell that to the dolphins which swim along the shore line
| where the take offs and landings will be occurring.
| gilbertbw wrote:
| My point is that the lower risk for the majority of the
| journey will offset (partially or fully I do not know) the
| increased risk on take-off and landing. I would guess that
| the overall risk will end up lower for a WIG craft than a
| traditional high speed foiling vessel.
|
| Also rocks are only a concern in a small area of ocean
| around the takeoff and landing areas, which will presumably
| be fairly well surveyed.
| tlb wrote:
| The aerodynamic benefit of flying in ground effect is fairly
| small, and the disadvantage is that rogue waves can just randomly
| splash that high.
|
| The current plane's wingspan is 65 feet, which probably means it
| flies about 32 feet (half a wingspan) off the water. Rogue waves
| can easily be that high in mild weather, and hitting even a small
| amount of water at 200 mph (claimed cruise speed) is bad.
|
| Lots of sea birds too, presumably, at that altitude.
| defrost wrote:
| Seriously good fun as a garage home build though:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ILbQHnHPnY
| pelagic_sky wrote:
| Watching that demo video was terrifying to me. The water is
| unpredictable and this thing wants to be close to it at full
| speed. It would have to be perfect conditions to get me into
| one of those.
| danans wrote:
| > The aerodynamic benefit of flying in ground effect is fairly
| small
|
| It's small compared to regular flight, but it's far more
| efficient than a regular boat hull pushing the water. A lot of
| that efficiency is achieved in hydrofoil mode, but lifting into
| ground effect mode should be even more efficient than hydrofoil
| (albeit as you say at some loss of stability).
|
| There are already several electric hydrofoil pleasure boats
| available that have remarkable range, i.e. Navier and Candela.
| trhway wrote:
| >The aerodynamic benefit of flying in ground effect is
|
| the certification of the craft as a ship instead of a plane. I
| think it'd be very easy to build today a flying boat like the
| ones from 30s
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_314_Clipper), yet
| certification cost of it makes it unfeasible as a business
| endeavor.
|
| In general, if I remember correctly, the cheap inter-island
| transportation isn't really wanted there as it is expected to
| bring homeless/etc. to the otherwise affluent islands.
| jauntywundrkind wrote:
| Is this actually a problem?
|
| This feels like something that an automated system could pretty
| easily detect, up to the range of visibility, and raise the
| seaplane up if this happens.
|
| Further, this is an inter-island route. Adding dedicated
| monitoring seems imminently doable.
|
| Yes, this is a concern. No, it's not hard to deal with.
| mock-possum wrote:
| Isn't the deal with rogue waves that they're _rogue_? They're
| not just big waves that slowly and predictably approach you
| from the horizon, then continue on their way past you in the
| opposite direction - they arise suddenly, unpredictably,
| without warning. One minute everything is smooth sailing,
| peaks and troughs of a few feet, and then suddenly the sea
| drops out from under you and now you're in a 30 foot trough,
| or the sea just bunches up and you're facing a 30 foot wave -
| maybe it grows out of nowhere, with you on top of it.
| jauntywundrkind wrote:
| It seems like if it is a nodal-point/interference issue,
| the probability has to be so small because it's a small
| area & momentary.
|
| You're probably right. But it also makes me think this
| might be a fantastically unlikely problem. I wonder where
| we'd get data on the likeliness of rogue waves of what size
| around Hawaii. It also stirs wondermemt about
| wavelength/periodicity of wave systems.
| worik wrote:
| > nodal-point/interference issue, the probability has to
| be so small because it's a small area & momentary.
|
| Not necessarily, especially around costal islands in the
| ocean
|
| The confluence of wind and tide around islands causes
| unpredictable ant violent sea conditions
|
| Costal sailors know this
| ryanisnan wrote:
| In my experience, rogue waves are like any other wave, they
| just aren't a part of a normal "set".
| happytiger wrote:
| It's always cool to see a new contender trying to throw in their
| hat and get started.
|
| Don't know about giving grants though. They should be able to
| drum up enough business to make it work if it's going to be
| viable long term. Lot of inter-island hopping in Hawaii.
|
| The competitor to this is a boat, traditional airplane (including
| electric).
|
| Hawaii airlines is the "traditional way" to get between the
| islands: the main airline taking people between islands for a
| long time now. Southwest is also now a pretty formidable
| competitor to them. So really, any service just needs to compete
| with them, because that's what everybody takes. I guess there is
| also Mokulele, Makani Kai and Lanai too for the four seasons
| crowd and I think there is a boat to Lanai from Maui too.
|
| I know people sometimes jump helicopters for way out. That's
| expensive but there are a lot of places that are super hard to
| get to otherwise. I think there's a real use case for a vtol taxi
| service.
|
| You'll know this company is getting serious if after starting up
| (presuming they do) they start a rewards program with someone
| like Costco. That's the best way to get local people using your
| service. Free points trips compensated by Costco purchases will
| put asses in seats in the islands for sure. Busiest Costco in the
| world is in Oahu.
| causi wrote:
| Something about the fact they're using twelve tiny propellers
| instead of a few big ones tells me this is going to fail.
| duxup wrote:
| These ground effect craft are super cool but I fear that these
| will also fail for the same reasons they have historically,
| reliability, unpredictable downtime due to being very sensitive
| to weather / ocean conditions.
|
| I suspect efficiency in what looks more like traditional air
| travel will be the way to go.
| dghughes wrote:
| The Seaglider would be great for my region of South-east Canada.
| There are four islands and two other areas each with at least
| three sides facing water. It wouldn't be open ocean so wave
| height shouldn't be too bad.
|
| The big thing here now is Right Whales ships bash their heads in
| since they seem to always be in the way of ships. Cruise ships,
| cargo ships, fishing all have to slow down to a crawl if whales
| are spotted.
|
| Flying would be far faster than ferry some take 8 hours others 1
| hour. Although flights here are ridiculously expensive $800 to
| $1,000 one-way to go 150km.
| mproud wrote:
| Last I in "Hawai'i" should be lowercase.
| tokai wrote:
| Why not HSCs? They work great for fast passenger travel between
| islands.
| throw0101d wrote:
| Meta: it seems like Hawaii (Hawai'i) would be a pretty good place
| to be able to do public transit, given the not-huge distances
| involved on any particular island, but AFAICT, it's not very good
| there.
|
| Also it seems like it's not very bike / cycling friendly either:
|
| * https://www.civilbeat.org/2022/07/keona-blanks-when-it-comes...
| ghaff wrote:
| You do have to separate Honolulu from pretty much everywhere
| else in the islands.
|
| Most of the small town/cities/resort communities are quite
| walkable once you get there. Everything else is extremely
| spread out--rural for the most part by any reasonable measure.
| Also often difficult terrain.
| jauntywundrkind wrote:
| This suggests to me that there's a perhaps even better
| application for an eco-friendly high-speed water transport:
| _intra_ -island transport!
|
| Rather than try to build and maintain difficult overland
| transport at land-speed, we could seaglider between coastal
| villages.
| upofadown wrote:
| > _What are some concerns that have been expressed about the
| Hawai'i seaglider system?_
|
| >A preliminary survey of Hawai'i residents showed they are
| concerned that seagliders will only be affordable to the affluent
| ...
|
| So the fares might be too high.
|
| [...]
|
| >Others expressed their concern about how seagliders can
| potentially impact communities through an increase in visitors.
|
| So the fares might be too low.
| gnicholas wrote:
| Would the person at the helm be a pilot or a captain?
| QuadmasterXLII wrote:
| Ground effect vehicles, tesla valves, and laminar flow: the
| horsemen of hacker news's grasp of fluid dynamics
| Aaronstotle wrote:
| How does it ride over large waves
| joshuaheard wrote:
| I like the concept. This is how pelicans flow low over the water.
| However, I have sailed between the Hawaiian islands. The air and
| water are turbulent due to trade winds and currents getting
| pushed through gaps in the islands, especially between Oahu and
| Maui, the most popular route. I looked at the video on their
| website and it didn't appear stable enough in flight to withstand
| a big puff pushing it down into a double-size wave. It would
| probably only work in a narrow weather window.
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