[HN Gopher] The question of poverty vs. instability
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The question of poverty vs. instability
Author : paulpauper
Score : 54 points
Date : 2024-01-21 17:36 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.robkhenderson.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.robkhenderson.com)
| psynister wrote:
| It's disheartening to see such drastic disparities between foster
| kids and their peers in terms of both education and incarceration
| rates. It really highlights just how important having a stable
| home life is to shaping the future outcomes for kids and how big
| of a disadvantage it is for those who don't have this privilege.
| Sad that we live in a society where we can't provide a healthy,
| stable environment so many kids.
| meiraleal wrote:
| > It really highlights just how important having a stable home
| life is to shaping the future outcomes for kids
|
| It also highlights the lack of investment to support those kids
| having a better future. It is just a matter of priority and
| resource allocation, after all.
| Sevii wrote:
| The way foster care works children will be placed with foster
| parents for a few years, then be returned to their parents,
| then be placed back in foster care with a different family,
| over and over again. The system is not setup to prioritize a
| stable environment. The reality is that to provide a healthy
| stable environment for these kids, we would have to effectively
| eliminate their parents from their lives. We'd basically have
| to say, "It's great you are off drugs and have a house and job
| now, but you don't get to have your kids back ever because they
| need stability". In general we prioritize getting kids back
| with their families over a healthy or stable environment.
| pizzafeelsright wrote:
| I am curious where people cannot provide a healthy and stable
| environment.
|
| I grew up poor, somewhat stable. My children are going to be
| growing up in a stable and healthy environment because of my
| choices. This is course has a cost. The wife doesn't have a
| full time job. Income is limited to one earner. Vacations
| aren't as extravagant.
|
| I am in the middle of becoming a foster family. Loads more
| sacrifices and paperwork. The families that lose their children
| are really screwed up. There's neglect, abuse, and no blood
| related that are available to help.
|
| The State is not any better at parenting because their interest
| doesn't align with the child's best interest. The State
| essentially contracts out parenting. The problem is parenting
| is essentially its own religion. Naturally that means the State
| will be in conflict with the Parenting.
|
| Foster children are protected by the State so disciplining
| methods aren't always accepted. A child of any age without
| effective discipline will be subject to natural consequences
| which are often more severe that a loving parent with patience,
| grace, understanding, and attention to desired outcome.
| Xeoncross wrote:
| The same is true of adults.
|
| Not having a loving support network is not good for humans. We
| don't do as well.
|
| The benefits of a network is well known in the business world.
| Being a "force-multiplier" is more important than being a lone
| "rock-star".
| pattmayne wrote:
| Yep, humans are social creatures.
| shermantanktop wrote:
| And sometimes they are antisocial creatures, which is also
| rooted in the same impulse, at least for some people. Being
| truly asocial--attaching zero positive or negative value to
| social connection--seems very rare.
|
| (That's my own invented definition of "asocial", which I
| think is more neutral than the dictionary version)
| harveywi wrote:
| Better yet, be a force multiplier who is willing to relocate.
| Then when times get tough you have your abelian group to lean
| on.
| dash2 wrote:
| The article gives some very good counter-examples to the
| overinterpretation of twin studies to claim "family environments
| don't matter". (Self-promotion: I and a friend wrote something
| similar here - https://wyclif.substack.com/p/no-wait-stop-it-
| matters-how-yo....) Still, it is fair to say that some of the
| underlying differences captured by being in foster care may be
| genetic.
| firesteelrain wrote:
| This article presents intriguing research on how poverty and
| instability in childhood impact future outcomes. It finds that
| while poverty itself isn't significantly linked to negative
| outcomes, environmental unpredictability during childhood is.
| This is evident in the reported correlation (r = .40, p < .01)
| between early instability and adult criminal behavior. This
| challenges common perceptions about poverty's role in shaping
| life trajectories.
| pattmayne wrote:
| That's really interesting. I had poverty and instability
| growing up, and I tend to treat the instability as an effect of
| the poverty. And I blame many of my adult problems on that
| poverty. But in truth, if I had to get rid of one then I would
| keep the poverty and get rid of the instability.
|
| Except for one thing: poverty forced us to live in the forest
| because we couldn't afford to live in town. That social
| isolation was hands-down the worst and most long-term harmful
| thing that I ever experienced. Poverty can also be poison.
| firesteelrain wrote:
| It does seem that families that are impoverished are more
| likely to be unstable. At least to a degree
| loganfrederick wrote:
| I have no direct connection to Rob Henderson but he's one of my
| favorite writers just from his Twitter and Substack because he
| dives into issues that are very close to my heart and life
| experience.
|
| I've written past comments on HN about how I was raised by a
| father who was a professional con man who committed credit card
| fraud, drove family into bankruptcy, then ghosted on my mother
| and I. The depths of that process was deeply chaotic and
| disruptive at a formative time in my life (high school and
| college).
|
| I've ended up having a solid career, but I have no doubt I'd have
| been able to make a bigger impact if the family drama hadn't
| dragged on my time and focus for years (basically in supporting
| my mother through the experience). Society's answer (at least in
| America) is basically to say "you could cut out your family if
| they're destructive" but that goes against one of the strongest
| aspects of human nature (to have a family). Choosing between
| chaos and isolation is a terrible dichotomy and a big job of
| society should be to ensure individuals have other warmer
| options.
|
| Also identifying earlier and stopping those chaos agents like my
| father is an area of study that is under-researched compared to
| the upside for society in solving that problem. There are folks
| like the Mind Research Network (https://www.mrn.org/) working on
| this but IMO should be getting 10x the funding they currently do.
| mrangle wrote:
| Authors should stay away from data statistical interpretation,
| generally. Its usually an s-show.
| cheschire wrote:
| You've had the thought of, and conveyed the thought to others,
| the intent and meaning of the phrase "shit show", so why shy
| away from writing it?
| mrangle wrote:
| The same reason that anyone might choose another phrase or
| word short of one considered to be a less-mannered.
| pattmayne wrote:
| If you don't want to type "shit show" you can just say
| "dumpster fire."
|
| "An s-show" is extra crass because it draws attention to the
| fact that shit is dirty enough to avoid. Most of what we see is
| your avoidance.
| MathMonkeyMan wrote:
| What would a shit show even look like?
| thatguysaguy wrote:
| The point about twin studies only showing heritability in
| reasonably well-off families is one I haven't seen discussed
| before. That seems like a huge asterisk on all the claims based
| on twin studies I've seen.
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