[HN Gopher] Lee Kuan Yew on Malta
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Lee Kuan Yew on Malta
Author : valkrieco
Score : 68 points
Date : 2024-01-20 13:51 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.karlsnotes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.karlsnotes.com)
| arbuge wrote:
| Funny to see this on the first page of HN (I'm Maltese, although
| living in the US now).
|
| Lots of truth in what he said... Malta has not done badly at all
| since independence but Singapore is a tough one to compare to.
| Currently Malta's GDP per capita stands at $33k or so which is
| certainly nothing to sneeze at, but still around half of
| Singapore's.
|
| Interesting too that history repeats itself. Back then it was the
| Suez Canal crisis and now it's this:
|
| https://timesofmalta.com/articles/view/freeport-talks-client...
| thriftwy wrote:
| Then again, I don't think Malta has as many low paid temp
| workers as these ones Singapore imports from India, etc. Also
| the residences are likely not that tiny.
| throw_pm23 wrote:
| Yea, I'd prefer living in Malta to Singapore every day.
| Though I'd probably prefer today's Singapore to the one
| before Yew's times.
| thriftwy wrote:
| The one before Yew's times was still a British colony port
| overlooking a critical shipping route. I'm not sure how
| such arrangement may not result in significant economic
| development. Hong Kong didn't have Yew but it had
| significant quality of development.
| rayiner wrote:
| Bangladesh is also on critical trade routes. The Port of
| Chittagong is one of the few things from Asia on Greek
| maps from the 2nd century:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_of_Chittagong.
| Chalking up Singapore's success to geography is probably
| missing the point.
| gamex79 wrote:
| Singaporean here. What would you say is the point?
|
| My own tldr is that we severely lacked in a number of
| areas:land mass, natural resources, a defensible
| position, a meaningful economy.
|
| Geography was pretty much the only thing we had going for
| us. That and amazing leadership.
| rayiner wrote:
| I mean to say Singapore's success isn't some
| inevitability due to its geography (which is an idea that
| gets trotted around). Lots of countries have something
| going for it they could capitalize on--most of them fail
| to do so. I think Singapore could've stagnated without
| good leadership and also a populace that was ready to
| rise to the occasion.
| thriftwy wrote:
| I would say the opposite - most of countries are more or
| less on the development level that their culture and
| geographic location permits, few countries are
| significantly below this level and fewer still are
| significantly above this level.
|
| Singapore is exactly where it should be, given its
| culture, legacy, location, and _the fact that it is a
| city-state_. It would still be Singapore under your
| average ruler (of Chinese culture, not African). It has
| awesome hand so it does not take much skill to play it.
|
| I could not repeat enough the argument of city-states
| being different, and usually very rich, so that's what
| I'm going to do. You should never compare Singapore's GDP
| growth with any country which has, well, countryside.
| Still, Taiwan will give Singapore a run on its money
| while not even being a recognized country.
| kawaiikouhai wrote:
| These are very broad generalizations you're claiming with
| no evidence.
|
| > Most of countries are more or less on the development
| level that their culture and geographic location permits.
|
| So, given this assertion, no developing country should
| ever hope to join the ranks of a developed nation? Unless
| they change cultural variables or conquer new lands. Yet
| we see this playing out in Europe and East Asia and now
| Africa and India.
|
| > Taiwan will give Singapore a run on its money
|
| Singapore's GDP per capita is $70,000 while Taiwan's
| capital city sits at $35,000.
|
| Please cite your sources
| thriftwy wrote:
| Would Singapore be a genuinely worse place to live if its
| GDP per capita would be "just" $35,000 instead of
| $70,000?
|
| It would probably have slighly smaller population, less
| economic regulation and more sustainability. So the
| difference between Yew and "number two" is the difference
| between "Excellent" and "Great".
|
| Come on, is that so important? I'd rather read on about a
| leader who turned "mediocre" into "pretty good".
|
| Because most countries are not Singapore, they don't have
| what it takes to be even Taiwan.
|
| "When a Rhino looks at the moon, he wastes the flowers of
| his spleen", as neither Japanese nor Chinese say.
| notahacker wrote:
| Depending on how you define "city states", it might just
| be Singapore and a couple of petrostates. Slightly
| broader definitions give you Malta (average Mediterranean
| country) as discussed and some middle income Caribbean
| islands relying on tourists and tax avoiders. That isn't
| because being a city state is so amazing every city just
| wished it could shed its hinterland, it's because
| operating as an independent country with limited domestic
| food production capacity is hard (even without neighbours
| wanting to assimilate you)
|
| Sure, cities have higher per capita GDP than their
| associated agricultural regions, but Singapore's GDP in
| 1963 was low relative to the agricultural regions of many
| countries it's since overtaken, its institutions were the
| colonial power's and much of its population consisted of
| uneducated coolies performing manual labour and living in
| squalid conditions.
|
| The only thing inevitable about Singapore's growth path
| is that if its first government had bankrupted the
| country and begged to be British or Malaysian subjects
| again by 1970, people would have said this wasn't at all
| surprising given its Asian culture (not so highly rated
| for business acumen in the 1960s!) and geographical
| disadvantages...
| coldtea wrote:
| > _Geography was pretty much the only thing we had going
| for us. That and amazing leadership._
|
| The biggest asset, aside from being a port on a great
| location, was the right alliances, and foreign countries
| being the island being let mostly alone, and you not
| having valuable resources, plus the desire of the rich in
| countries around the area to use the island as a tax
| haven of sorts (and later, as their comfy home away from
| home).
|
| Yew would have been thrown out of office in a week and
| some "coup" would have been organized if some big foreign
| power has special interests in the area and wanted him
| gone.
|
| And if the island had resources like oil or such, it
| would have been invaded, occupied, "liberated" by some
| new traiting politician friendly to the outside, every
| second year.
| gamex79 wrote:
| > Yew would have been thrown out of office in a week and
| some "coup" would have been organized if some big foreign
| power has special interests in the area and wanted him
| gone.
|
| There was significant interest from foreign powers doing
| just that, look up Operation Coldstore and the history of
| communist insurgency in Singapore.
| CyberDildonics wrote:
| _That and amazing leadership._
|
| Amazing leadership according to the leadership that
| controls the news media and holds sham elections where
| other parties get no media coverage until a few weeks
| before the election.
| devilbunny wrote:
| It's a thinly veiled dictatorship, but OTOH it's stable,
| not particularly oppressive about non-political topics,
| takes good care of its citizens, and has done a hell of a
| lot to improve its citizens' lives while defusing, as
| much as possible, the various ethnic issues that have
| plagued other countries in the region.
|
| Don't forget, it was a _poor_ country at independence.
| Malaysia and Indonesia also face the Strait of Malacca,
| and I 'd rather live under Singapore's government than
| either of those.
| gamex79 wrote:
| Don't get me wrong. Democracy is a total joke in
| Singapore. That's why I left. My dad has never voted in
| his life because there aren't enough opposition
| candidates. The police actively harrasses members of the
| opposition (I had a friend who's husband was an
| opposition MP).
|
| But given all that _could_ have happened, I do stand by
| that assessment.
| boeingUH60 wrote:
| Many countries have key shipping routes and other
| geographical advantages, but corruption and stupid
| leaders/populace prevent them from succeeding.
| resolutebat wrote:
| In Chinese names the surname goes first, so it's Lee's
| times.
| Al-Khwarizmi wrote:
| I haven't visited Malta but Singapore would be one of my
| top choices if I had to migrate somewhere (if not the top).
|
| Big city but you can go anywhere at any time and feel
| extremely safe. Impressive public transport. Amazing food,
| probably the best among countries I've visited. Everyone
| speaks English but you can enjoy a mix of Chinese, Malay,
| Indian cultures. The people tend to be quite nice. Good
| economy. Feeling of growth, rather than decadence like in
| much of the West, every time I go there seem to be several
| new MRT lines. Sane politics (see public housing, etc.)
| Plenty of places to visit, activities and things to do.
|
| It's not perfect, maybe a bit too hot and I don't like
| their long working hours and exploiting of maids, but in my
| view it's top notch. On March I'll go to Malta, let's see
| how I compares, but I doubt I'll like it more (no offense
| to Malta, as I said, the think is that I really have a good
| concept of Singapore).
| zarzavat wrote:
| Having to be completely obedient to the state wears on
| the soul. All migrants experience this to a certain
| extent in any country but in Singapore it's turned up to
| 11. The fruits of capitalistic success might be enjoyable
| for a while, but it's a shallow existence. I think that
| Singapore is enjoyable in small doses.
| 55555 wrote:
| They could import them from north Africa if they wanted.
| kredd wrote:
| ~100k foreign temp workers in Malta to support the labour,
| about 20% of the population.
| andsoitis wrote:
| Singapore's financial success is indisputable and truly
| impressive given the very short timeline going from developing to
| highly developed.
|
| For me, life is not just about money and financial success;
| without freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of
| association, sexual liberty, etc. who cares about material
| riches?
| thriftwy wrote:
| The whole region was undergoing transition from developing to
| highly developed, Singapore just leads the way because it is a)
| very small and have nothing holding it back, and 2) has a great
| location and legacy.
|
| South Korea is way more impressive transition than Singapore.
| First of all, it is a large country with a local nation whose
| culture had to be preserved. Second, it was really poor, and
| after Korean war it was poorer than most of Africa.
| ergocoder wrote:
| > The whole region was undergoing transition from developing
| to highly developed
|
| From the said region. This is objectively no.
|
| Singapore and Korea are the only twos. Korea is not even in
| the region.
|
| Other countries are rampant with corruptions, political
| problems, and incompetence. Think of Trump and multiply it by
| 10. My prediction is that Thailand, Vietnam, Philippines ,
| Indonesia, Cambodia, Malaysia, and etc. will never become
| developed. These countries are too big to change and the
| legacy systems (that are insanely corrupted) are too
| powerful.
|
| Take Thailand for example. It's objectively bad to have
| military run the country. Apart from corruption, they are
| just incompentent; it's well known and blatant. Yet almost
| half of the country supports a military government.
| thriftwy wrote:
| Singapore's population was mostly Chinese with some
| europeans, so it was way closer to South Korea culturally
| than to Cambodia.
| kawaiikouhai wrote:
| Uh... No. Singapore's second largest native population
| are Malays then Indians, which IIRC are 13% and 7% of the
| population as of 2024.
|
| I do not think this was much different historically.
| Europeans are not very present in Singaporean society.
| mistermann wrote:
| It's hard to say for sure, but imho LKY is one of the most
| impressive leaders and orators I've ever encountered.
|
| https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM64SAoG7/
|
| https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM64SycPu/
|
| https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM64S6tBu/
| mc32 wrote:
| Also South Korea was a Japanese colony. Colonies are double
| edged swords: they benefit from the injection of foreign
| expertise (technology, administration, standardization, ties,
| etc.,) but suffer from lopsided resource extraction. I think
| overall there is a long-term benefit from this forced
| infusion, but for lots of people it's problematic.
|
| It's the age old complaint about the Romans by their
| conquered peoples as illustrated in the Life of Brian.
| boeingUH60 wrote:
| As someone who comes from a third-world country (Nigeria), I'll
| trade some liberty for safety, a stable society, and prosperous
| economy at any time.
|
| But I guess it's different for Westerners that already have a
| lot of liberties and material success to begin with.
| realusername wrote:
| On the other hand, Singapore is the only developed
| dictatorship in the world so while this trade could work,
| it's much more likely to fail. Usually, dictatorships go in
| hand with poor prosperity.
| rayiner wrote:
| > without freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of
| association, sexual liberty, etc. who cares about material
| riches?
|
| Who cares about them? Everyone who doesn't have material
| prosperity? You think the Chinese would trade their last two
| decades of growing material prosperity for greater speech and
| sexual freedom?
|
| Wealthy societies are able to afford those vices. But when
| America was developing, for example, the scope of those
| freedoms were sharply narrower than the way you probably think
| of them today. The Americans who made the country wealthy and
| prosperous today are not the post-1960s libertines that now
| enjoy the fruits of those efforts.
| iisan7 wrote:
| Heirarchy of needs: baseline level of "Freedom from" poverty,
| conflict, instability comes before "freedom to" act liberally.
| I'd agree that making that transition in priorities is
| important, and that a government allow society to liberalize,
| but if you read his book, he lays out the reasons that he felt
| Singapore should be slow to socially liberalize (racial
| conflict being a major one, and deeper differences he sees
| between Asian and Western values, make of that what you will).
| IIRC, he also argued that their press is free, just not free to
| lie or embellish, so they would face consequences for
| exaggeration or libel. He thought that was necessary to prevent
| incitement to riot or political subversion.
| bediger4000 wrote:
| Weird article. Ends with a big quote from Yew, no concluding
| analysis. Is this AI generated?
| pxue wrote:
| Alternatively, Lee was smart enough to NOT make generalized
| conclusion and to just leave it at an observation.
| waihtis wrote:
| ctrl + f "in conclusion"
|
| Nah, probably not AI generated.
| phantomathkg wrote:
| What Singapore did best is sit between China and US and try to
| benefit from both ends.
| hcmacro wrote:
| I'd say Japan (China followed Singapore in development).
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| Well, Singapore is a Chinese city at the tip of Malaysia. This
| is also why they split from Malaysia.
| gamex79 wrote:
| Singaporean here. This is a technicality but we didn't
| voluntarily split from Malaysia, we got thrown out.
| rayiner wrote:
| U.S.-China trade volume was negligible until well into the
| 1990s: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/05/more-
| than-30-years-of.... By 1995, Singapore's GDP per capita had
| already overtaken the UK's.
|
| Trade was obviously important to Singapore's development. But
| the idea that it was just because Singapore happened to be
| Singapore's location relative to China is anachronistic.
| Singapore's annual GDP per capita growth was already over 15%
| by the time Nixon went to China in 1972. It actually started
| slowing down by the 1990s when China's growth started picking
| up.
| pi-e-sigma wrote:
| Look at a map. Singapore is not on China-US maritime shipping
| lane so US-China trade is not relevant to Singapore at all.
| Jun8 wrote:
| Tangentially, I think Malta is a fascinating place. It's the only
| country in the EU, AFAIK, with a Semitic language. it's unique
| culture, the history with Hospitaller knights, ancient buildings,
| the fact that it's and island ... all are very interesting. I'd
| love to visit in this lifetime.
|
| HN'ers of Maltese origin: what are some interesting aspects of
| your country?
| mmahemoff wrote:
| Also interesting that English is one of their official
| languages, the other being Maltese, making Ireland and Malta
| the only EU countries with that status now. There's a big scene
| of English schools and young Europeans going there to learn
| English in summer, which translates to a lot of partying.
|
| I definitely recommend visiting if you get a chance. It packs
| so much in for a small country.
| arbuge wrote:
| For a long time we were pretty sure that we had the oldest
| free-standing structures (i.e. buildings) in the world:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalithic_Temples_of_Malta
|
| Apparently there's an even older contender in Turkey now, but,
| anyway you slice it, this stuff is old. The most recent of them
| (2500 BC) roughly equate in age to the oldest pyramids of
| Egypt.
| gamex79 wrote:
| Any Americans here retired to Malta? It came up on some lists
| of best places in the world to retire. Would love to hear your
| experience.
| chx wrote:
| I am not of Maltese origin but I am a resident now.
|
| How much Malta fucked up transit and transportation is really
| interesting. It's as bad as the United States despite unlike
| the US the distances are short and the population density is
| high (the whole thing is 17 mi x 9 mi, the density of the
| entire country compares to Bellevue, WA and the towns
| themselves are ten times more dense). Malta is #10 country in
| the world in cars owned per people leading to constant
| congestion https://i.redd.it/fnrrri2k1n8b1.png, some sections
| of the roads are impossible to walk, some transit connections
| are near impossible to make because of the lack of crossings
| and sidewalks. Buses are infrequent and notoriously unreliable.
| And buses are all there are, not even a trolley bus much less a
| tram or something.
|
| And they are not fixing this, I tried to do public transit to
| the nearest Lidl and the road was freshly rebuilt (not even
| fully complete yet) and they didn't add a sidewalk. The public
| transit mobile app is useless. This is not just me grumbling
| check https://timesofmalta.com/articles/view/people-use-bus-
| reliab... for more.
| purrcat259 wrote:
| Hi, Maltese here, always lived here since birth, my family is
| Maltese going back generations.
|
| Off the top of my head: 1. The country is constantly polarised.
| Politics and football especially. Voting based on your family's
| political legacy is very common. 2. The idea of being
| constantly ruled by someone else used to be s convenient excuse
| to steal from the colonists. The downside is that this attitude
| never left with the british, so tax evasion is rampant as if
| you're sticking it to the man by doing so... But in reality
| you're stealing from yourself. 3. While similar to Ireland in
| the sense that the economy grew very fast very quickly, it has
| the opposite problem when it comes to housing: massive supply
| is not managing to sate the massive demand, so housing prices
| are persistently astronomically high.
|
| Happy to answer more questions.
| rayiner wrote:
| I don't understand why political leaders don't look to LKY for
| insight the way business leaders look to Jeff Bezos or Steve
| Jobs. Singapore is the closest thing to a deliberate, systematic
| experiment in developing a third world country into a first world
| country.
| thriftwy wrote:
| Singapore as a British port city on a small island was never a
| third world country. Before WWII it was already known as a
| major leisure, high life spot (as evident by Verinsky's 1931
| "Magnolia"). It was surrounded by 3rd world countries like an
| American base may be surrounded by middle eastern shacks, but
| it is very different from them. If that base was to gain
| independence it would retain the QoL.
| TMWNN wrote:
| How separate was British Singapore from British Malaya? My
| understanding is that Lee Kuan Yew wept when Singapore was
| thrown out of Malaysia. Neither he nor anyone else expected
| that Singapore would become a first-world economy and
| Malaysia would, well, not.
| gamex79 wrote:
| Not separate at all. You are right that he did weep.
| rayiner wrote:
| Lots of former British colonies have posh enclaves surrounded
| by poverty. Singapore's GDP per capita in 1960 was similar to
| Guatemala: https://cepr.net/documents/publications/econ_growt
| h_2005_11_.... And as the article noted, 20% of that was
| British military spending which went away with independence
| in 1965. The UK's per capita gdp was more than 5 times
| higher.
| thriftwy wrote:
| Even in this table, you see Taiwan and South Korea with
| same impressive growth as Singapore, and then you see
| Thailand and Malaysia that fare very well. And they all
| have the handicap of _not consisting out of a metropolis
| entirely_ , since capitals are known to have high GDPs per
| person and countryside is known to be lagging.
| rayiner wrote:
| All of those countries were poor too. I'm not saying
| Singapore was the only country to develop. But lots of
| countries that were similarly situated to Singapore and
| Korea in 1960 didn't develop.
| kwere wrote:
| politics is more about ideology and appeasing the powerbase
| than developing the nation or reaching "targets".
| boeingUH60 wrote:
| Many political leaders along with their voters are frankly
| stupid and lack vision or competence.
|
| For example, most democratic African leaders are interested in
| clinging to power and stealing at the expense of the
| population...they still get continually voted in for some
| reason despite their mediocrity.
| pi-e-sigma wrote:
| As opposed to European or American leaders who don't cling to
| power and don't want to enrich themselves?
| boeingUH60 wrote:
| Corruption in Africa is extremely worse than in Europe and
| the US...denying this fact is almost akin to being a flat
| earther.
| pi-e-sigma wrote:
| You are mixing two things - everyday corruption
| experienced by an average citizen and the top of the
| government corruption which arguably is even worse in the
| US than in some African countries because it is made
| _legal_ and happens in plain sight
| boeingUH60 wrote:
| No, it's worse at the top levels in Africa. Show me where
| American and European legally steal public funds and
| siphon it to their offshore accounts..
|
| I really get tired of moral equivalence.
| sam_lowry_ wrote:
| Belgian here. We have political families stretching over
| many generations.
|
| Some 20 years ago a representative of such a family
| wanted to go for a second term with the slogan of adding
| 100,000 people to the job market. We then turned all
| house cleaning jobs from black market to official by
| paying 3x the value of house cleaning work in subsidies
| to select businesses.
|
| He is still lauded for the idea.
|
| Corruption is just smarter over here.
| boeingUH60 wrote:
| I wish my country was so good that this is what counts as
| major corruption..
| gamex79 wrote:
| I've reflected on this a lot over time. My conclusion is that
| it would be pointless. That would be akin to companies like
| Google and Walmart looking to a wildly successful mom and pop
| shop for business advice.
| bradleyishungry wrote:
| If you're talking about North American political leaders, they
| really can't. LKY had a lot more power than anyone can have in
| most countries political systems. If you're talking about
| political leaders in growing countries, a lot do take
| inspiration from him. Singapore had a lot of qualities to
| benefit from at the time that other countries don't, though.
| throw_pm23 wrote:
| Wasn't it an inspiration to China's development, in particular
| to Deng Xiaoping? If so, then it is a great example of
| developing a third world country following LKY's insights.
| FooBarBizBazz wrote:
| I think they do.
|
| 1. I think the establishment of Special Economic Zones by Deng
| Xiaoping was inspired in part by Singapore's success.
|
| 2. Rwanda, which now seems to be doing well in an economic
| sense, is led by Paul Kagame, who is frequently compared to
| (and may even be trying to model himself on?) LKY. (Personally
| though, with the genocide, and Kagame's military background,
| and Rwanda's continued involvement in Congo, I think the
| analogy may actually be strained.)
|
| 3. The Brexiteers (optimistically, or delusionally), spoke for
| a while of trying to create a "Singapore on Thames" (London). I
| suspect LKY would have been amused.
|
| The general theme is that comparisons to LKY seem to be more
| aspirational than truly legitimate. But the aspiration does
| exist.
| screye wrote:
| Lots of places have managed to get rich. Very few have managed to
| secure a good life its citizens through its riches.
|
| Singapore's 99 year lease allows its people to be well housed.
| Conscription keeps them healthy and they have among the best
| trained special ops. Public transportation and expensive car
| registrations allow for convenient transportation for all. Crimes
| are unheard of and the base population is the most productive of
| any nation in the region. Education is the best in the world. All
| from a nation that was nothing more than Marshes a few decades
| ago.
|
| Many city states/ small nations have had a top tier draw. Norway,
| Botswana, Emirates, Venezuela, Panama, Canada (erstwhile),
| Brunei....are all good examples.
|
| None have capitalized on it as well as Singapore. Credit where it
| is due.
|
| (they could have better work conditions and fertility rates)
| 55555 wrote:
| His book on developing Singapore is one of the most interesting
| books I've ever read. https://www.amazon.com/Third-World-First-
| Singapore-1965-2000...
|
| It's part (auto)biography, part business book (his country was a
| startup, and he had to do tremendous business deals, place
| winning bets on numerous trends, allocate scarce capital
| effectively, manage and lead and recruit and inspire a team, etc)
| part dictator/war/adventure book (he jumps from a page of
| business dealings to suddenly buying fighter jets and preparing
| for invasion, making alliances etc, then suddenly back to
| business), part travel/culture/life. You'd be hard pressed to
| find a man with a more eventful or interesting life. I highly
| recommend it. There's 3 books in total, but the one I linked
| takes you from the founding of the nation state to the modern
| era, and is the same book the linked excerpt is taken from.
| purrcat259 wrote:
| Ouch this hits home. Its still the case to today: many Maltese
| just depend on the government to figure it out for them.
|
| As a result: 1. The government is the biggest employer on the
| island.
|
| 2. There are mandatory cost of living allowance increases every
| year decided by the government. Its always too slow and slightly
| too low. For comparison, the last COLA increase had 5% of it
| shaved off within a few weeks because local milk prices rose as a
| result.
|
| 3. The government has been subsidising electricity since the
| start of the invasion of Ukraine to avoid rising bills
| (historically it was a political football). WTO, EC, and other
| institutions have repeatedly told the government to wind them
| down but its repeatedly ignored this because any government which
| does will likely collapse in a few months.
|
| Its a super frustrating cycle to see year after year and its not
| surprising to see that its been historically accurate too.
|
| Fwiw, I'm Maltese and in my early thirties.
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(page generated 2024-01-20 23:01 UTC)