[HN Gopher] HaptX gloves provide high-fidelity touch feedback of...
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HaptX gloves provide high-fidelity touch feedback of virtual spaces
Author : PaulHoule
Score : 45 points
Date : 2024-01-19 21:29 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.freethink.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.freethink.com)
| dustincoates wrote:
| They look interesting technology-wise, but I think we'll just
| have to disagree on the "they look cool, too" part.
| LoganDark wrote:
| > For those hoping to add HaptX to their dream gaming rig, we
| have some bad news for you: The company is currently developing
| the technology specifically for industrial, manufacturing, and
| government. While the technology has a wide range of applications
| in these sectors, the biggest one is training.
|
| I want to buy one anyway, even if it's $20,000.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| Don't you want two? :-).
| Almondsetat wrote:
| Since this wasn't tested inside a USAF base I don't think it's
| the "most advanced in the world"
| SnazzyJeff wrote:
| I imagine a lot of things tested at the USAF base aren't the
| "most advanced in the world"--and frankly the assumption that
| they would be is somewhat odd. There's only so much throwing
| wads of cash at contractors can solve.
| haptic1216 wrote:
| Nah, HaptX genuinely is on the leading edge of this industry.
| No one else is as advanced or has the same quality of haptics.
| Which is why their price is so incredibly high.
| nonrepeating wrote:
| Nifty, but the article should have elaborated on the use cases.
| It suggested that training is the biggest one, but are these
| really a substitute for actually feeling real-world things? Seems
| like they'd have to be almost magically precise to, say, simulate
| the difference between quality and unacceptable fabric.
| ImPostingOnHN wrote:
| Imagine A/B testing physical user interfaces, like a cockpit.
| Or training on all the different planes with different cockpits
| using 1 setup.
| riversflow wrote:
| Yeah, if this article was more balanced and less sensational
| they might have touched on(heh) how _incredibly_ sensitive our
| sense of touch /proprioception in our fingers and hands is,
| especially if trained[1].
|
| [1] https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/amazing-
| sensitiv...
| throwaway27312 wrote:
| I work on VR, for training various types of mechanics and
| machine operators. I've tried every handtracking/glove/touch
| system under the sun, and tested integrating them with my
| product when possible. I've tried the HaptX gloves at various
| trade shows, and even had them to my office to demo their
| newest stuff personally.
|
| There is no use case for HaptX. They're not a substitute for
| anything. They're not magically precise. They're nothing.
| bane wrote:
| I've tried these before. They use directed air onto your hands
| hence the backpack. They do a pretty okay job at providing a
| sense of texture. So virtual objects have a surface feeling, but
| still no physical shape or resistance. The demo has a bunch of
| feely textured objects you can handle: steam, dripping water, a
| cat, a rope, etc. You still have to pretend that you "stop" at
| the volume of whatever object as the system still doesn't provide
| any physical resistance. Some of the demo surfaces were kind of
| "meh" but a few, like the rope felt spot on to what a rough hemp
| rope being touched through a glove might feel like.
|
| To me the biggest problem outside of that was that the system
| can't really provide the sense of touch of a static object. Like
| resting your hands on the thorns of a cactus. Because it uses
| streams of air bubbles, it has to be a continuously changing
| surface, so rubbing your hand or finger on something works
| better.
|
| Is it more immersive? Yeah, to a point. I personally think that a
| feedback system that let you feel the volume or shape of gripped
| objects would be better, but these are _very_ hard problems.
| jncfhnb wrote:
| Pretty much impossible problem imo.
|
| One can imagine fanciful solutions, but people tend to get hurt
| in VR space. It would be very, very hard not injure the humans
| in meat space with tech that is sufficiently rigid to let them
| also physically interact with vr objects.
| withinboredom wrote:
| I'm reminded of the description in "Rainbow End?" where the
| guy doesn't have a VR setup yet and sees people reaching out
| and touching shapes held in the air by mechanical arms.
| Basically, there are 'self-arranging blobs' that arrive 'just
| in time' to your interaction, changing their tactile surface
| to reflect what you expect. The user sees none of this, and
| only what they see in their interface.
|
| I can't imagine it working perfectly. Say, pulling a book out
| of a shelf should have exactly zero resistance (other than
| the force of gravity pulling the book down). Having near zero
| latency between action and the 'tactile interface' moving in
| exactly the right direction would be a very hard problem...
| jncfhnb wrote:
| Ok now you're running and your foot clips a rock. Think
| fast machine. Does a blob clip your foot and cause you to
| fall irl?
| withinboredom wrote:
| For some people, does the blob even need to be there for
| them to trip?
| vlovich123 wrote:
| Not sure how dangerous it has to get. Just having some basic
| motors that counteract the force you exert with a fast
| response time probably couldn't do much damage. An
| intelligent system to also check that you maintain your
| balance (or only doing this seated) probably takes away a
| bunch of risk.
| jncfhnb wrote:
| Objects in an immersive environment are not static and
| unmoving. Guy punches you in the face. What does the system
| do?
|
| Seated is kind of stupid imo.
| vlovich123 wrote:
| Well first are you wearing just haptic gloves or are you
| also wearing a mask? In the first case nothing would
| happen obviously. In both cases the system should be able
| to distinguish you exerting a force and matching a
| counteracting force to give a sense of pressure vs VR
| contact that can be simulated through significantly less
| force (eg a haptic buzz).
| skygazer wrote:
| I imagine a force-feedback exo-suit that turns you into a
| mime, but with sensation. It won't necessarily give you a
| punch in the face, but could afford resistance and virtual
| heft to some virtual objects, and would have been an
| interesting scene in an Iron Man movie.
| haptic1216 wrote:
| I work on gloves like this, and that's really not what we see
| in the real world.
|
| The active force applied to the fingers is actually pretty
| small. The geometry of a flexed hand gives huge mechanical
| advantage. The key is a large _holding_ force. It 's easy to
| prevent you from closing your hands further without needing
| to actually overpower you.
|
| You don't need to pull hard, you just have to be able to stop
| hard. No real risk there.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| See the seldon_mallow comment with the link to
| https://www.fluidreality.com/, they do this with small devices
| that don't need stored air. The "breakthrough" here feels like
| the connection between the haptic array and the software, if
| that is the case, then the implementation can be done in lots
| of ways.
| haptic1216 wrote:
| HaptX does have a force feedback system, maybe it just wasn't
| on that day?
|
| > the system can't really provide the sense of touch of a
| static object.
|
| Yeah, that's hard because of how you perceive weight. We'd have
| to be able to pull your forearm down relative to the elbow, and
| that's not exactly easy to do elegantly. I've thought a lot
| about it and haven't been able to come up with something that
| isn't a ridiculous exoskeleton for your arms and shoulders.
|
| > I personally think that a feedback system that let you feel
| the volume or shape of gripped objects would be better, but
| these are very hard problems.
|
| I agree! It really does make the interaction more convincing.
| I've been working on this problem for the last year or so and
| it is indeed quite hard. But we're nearly there. Maybe this
| year ;)
| mcoliver wrote:
| I was deep in this space for a while. For those interested in
| digging deeper, It's a few years old but one of the better and
| more comprehensive documents that came out at the time (2021) was
| this one. Not sure how much has changed since then
|
| A Systematic Review of Commercial Smart Gloves: Current Status
| and Applications
|
| (weblink) https://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/21/8/2667
|
| (pdf link) https://mdpi-
| res.com/d_attachment/sensors/sensors-21-02667/a...
| seldon_mallow wrote:
| This is the real future of the space in my opinion -
| https://www.fastcompany.com/90978057/this-groundbreaking-tec...
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| Interesting variation on the technique. From
| https://www.fluidreality.com/
| haptic1216 wrote:
| I work for a competitor, but I do know a fair bit about HaptX's
| system.
|
| The force feedback is driven with a complex exotendon (cable)
| system that can give dynamic resistance as well as just pulling
| on you.
|
| The tactile haptics are much more interesting. It's a grid of
| piston actuators in several places along the palm and fingers.
| They need the huge backpack and separate gigantic floor unit with
| a compressor to generate the pressure required to push those
| pistons fast and hard enough.
|
| They also have their own hand and finger tracking. It's actually
| a pretty cool system.
|
| As an engineer, I respect the hell out of what they're doing. The
| haptics really are the best thing on the market right now.
| Unfortunately the cost is so high and the use case so narrow that
| it just isn't worth it.
|
| So far, VR haptics has really only found use in training and
| simulation. There's real potential there, but it's a very small
| market right now. But we do see that it genuinely does help
| shorten training times when we convince someone to use it.
| modeless wrote:
| These are too complex and expensive for consumer use now and for
| the foreseeable future. However there is an important application
| where these may end up being key: teleoperation of robot hands to
| produce training data for neural nets.
|
| We will probably need millions of hours of data of robots doing
| everyday tasks to train our neural net models. Collecting that
| data might mean humans puppeteering robots very precisely but
| also very quickly. Without haptic gloves, human operators would
| be attempting tasks with no sense of touch at all, and their
| movements would be unnatural and inefficient, ultimately
| resulting in the trained robot moving inefficiently too.
|
| Tesla has a motion capture suit that can be seen here:
| https://youtu.be/XiQkeWOFwmk?t=33 In this video they aren't doing
| teleoperation but in this other video demonstrating teleoperation
| you can briefly see a hand in the bottom right corner which looks
| like it's wearing a haptic glove:
| https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1746964887949934958
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