[HN Gopher] The Miele Dialog: cook a fish in ice without melting...
___________________________________________________________________
The Miele Dialog: cook a fish in ice without melting the ice
Author : mckn1ght
Score : 54 points
Date : 2024-01-18 19:38 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (reviewed.usatoday.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (reviewed.usatoday.com)
| Qelmo wrote:
| I hate pages like this.
|
| It literaly doesn't tell you how they do it.
|
| But i lost interest at the price tag of 9600
| mckn1ght wrote:
| Yeah, I too was annoyed that they don't talk about the how at
| all. It's a really long page, about 3x longer than it needs to
| be.
|
| My guess is infrared, but I was hoping someone more
| knowledgeable could chime in.
| mrguyorama wrote:
| The worst part is that it is 3x longer than it needs to be
| because every claim they make is repeated, nearly identically
| and without further elaboration, at least 3 times. It's like
| watching the same exact commercial 3 times
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| Not too many possibilities.
|
| Perhaps constructive inyerferences in microwaves so that the
| power, and thus heating, is precisely focused within a specific
| volumetric location.
|
| Oven beamforming.
|
| Or another highly directive radiation source, again to target a
| specific location.
| throw310822 wrote:
| The question is more... ok, target a specific location
| _where_? Does it actually know where the different food items
| are on the tray, where is their center and where is their
| surface, and how each should be cooked separately?
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| Marketing material always makes it extra fancy but it's
| quite possible that the actual manual says that _you_ must
| make sure that what you want to heat is at the centre
| because that 's where the energy will be focused.
| throw310822 wrote:
| Also possible, though I got the impression that it was
| actually directing energy to specific places. And I was
| already fantasizing about microwave oven with CT-scanner
| :)
| alfalfasprout wrote:
| $9k isn't too bad for a high end oven tbh.
| nathancahill wrote:
| Yeah, they're going to sell some many of these if the
| marketing is somewhat close to reality. Instant buy for
| anyone outfitting a high-end home.
| webstrand wrote:
| 9600 might be worth it, but the fact that it's tied to the
| internet and an app, I have no interest.
| tptacek wrote:
| If it works well, the price will plummet over the next 10
| years.
| gwern wrote:
| https://reviewed.usatoday.com/ovens/features/we-tried-an-ove...
| is a much better writeup.
|
| It seems to be a directional microwave, where it monitors how
| much microwave gets reflected back as a proxy for how much is
| being absorbed by the food in each spot, so it can ramp up/down
| the power as necessary to deliver the requested amount of energy.
| Pretty neat.
| yetanotherloser wrote:
| that has some weird parallels with modern military radar.
|
| Also, I didn't want one when I read their marketing page, but
| now I'm intrigued.
| evilduck wrote:
| It ought to, microwave ovens have roots to obsolete military
| radar too.
| JaggedJax wrote:
| Reading their copy and looking at the photos I was pretty sure
| it was microwave based since that was the only thing that fit
| with it heating "evenly throughout," the bland colors, and lack
| of any burning or charring. Given this, I wonder how the flavor
| will turn out in these dishes. Traditionally microwaving fish
| and steak aren't the tastiest ways to prepare them, but maybe
| the improved control solves that problem somewhat?
| jfengel wrote:
| Microwaving is bad for steak, since steak really benefits
| from a browned exterior.
|
| It's actually an OK way to prepare many fish, though. Many
| fish have a delicate flavor that would be overwhelmed by
| browning, and also a delicate texture that would fall apart
| in most applications that would brown them.
|
| Poaching is a common way to gently raise the temperature of
| such fish until just cooked through, and you can emulate that
| in a microwave. Put them in a glass pan, add some water and
| flavorings (herbs, lemon, etc), and nuke until cooked
| through.
|
| That's applied mostly to smaller, whiter fish, and to salmon.
| The bigger and redder fish like tuna, shark, etc. are more
| likely to be cooked the way steak is -- often not just rare,
| but raw in the center.
|
| Anyway... I dunno if a $10,000 fancy microwave would be worth
| it as a glorified fish poacher.
| mherdeg wrote:
| Was this the premise of the pilot episode of 30 Rock? The
| trivection oven?
| wefarrell wrote:
| "The truth is, it's actually difficult for any microwave oven
| to melt ice. That's because solids tend to transmit, rather
| than absorb microwaves, and because the hydrogen bonds in ice
| are stronger than (and harder to induce vibration/heating in)
| those of liquid water"
|
| Interesting
| CoopaTroopa wrote:
| >That's because the Dialog's underlying technology is based on
| medical devices used to reheat donated organs that are kept
| cold for transport.
|
| The first guy to make the jump from heating donor organs to
| heating your food probably got a couple of weird looks. I
| wonder if there was any viewing the Silence of the Lambs before
| the connection was made.
| dang wrote:
| Ok, we've changed to that URL from
| https://www.miele.com/brand/en/revolutionary-
| excellence-3868.... Thanks!
| wkdneidbwf wrote:
| this revolutionary microwave will cook a fish in ice while
| simultaneously draining your wallet to completion.
| blovescoffee wrote:
| I love cooking and science. I cannot figure out why anyone would
| want to cook a salmon in ice? even if it's possible, what's the
| actual value?
| nsxwolf wrote:
| Wondering the same thing. Is this a culinary technique, or just
| a way to show off some novel directed energy cooking
| technology?
| lifestyleguru wrote:
| Showing off to other rich obnoxious people.
| FpUser wrote:
| This, except "obnoxious". Nice uninformed person could still
| fall for it
| lifestyleguru wrote:
| They have no interest to befriend nice non rich people.
| drewcoo wrote:
| Which presumably sells more ovens!
| bombcar wrote:
| A surprisingly large number of these high end ovens are
| sold into houses where they are literally never used. I'm
| talking touring a ten year old house and I open the oven
| and the original manual is still taped to the grill.
|
| At least in this case it might be shown off as a party
| trick.
| lifestyleguru wrote:
| It made one wife once very excited though.
| hammock wrote:
| The frozen outer layer seals in moisture and flavor, preventing
| the food from overcooking or drying out during the cooking
| process
| aacid wrote:
| don't we have more effective ways to seal in moisture and
| flavor than freezing fish in block of ice?
| hammock wrote:
| Yes. But not more effective ways of demonstrating this
| technology
| blovescoffee wrote:
| If this technology is actually worth $10k, there should
| be a demonstration of an actually valuable cooking
| process with it. This contrived demo makes it feel less
| valuable than it might be (I don't really know if it's
| actually valuable...)
| itishappy wrote:
| Scroll down. This is the first of ten examples.
| thfuran wrote:
| Doesn't not overcooking it also prevent overcooking?
| mrkeen wrote:
| Let's say I've got a cooked fish sitting in ice, scales &
| eyeballs included, how do I get that to a state where I could
| serve it? Is there a recipe where already-cooked frozen fish
| is an ingredient?
| bagels wrote:
| You serve the whole fish, it's not that uncommon in some
| cuisines. I can't imagine why you'd want raw fish skin and
| cooked meat though (there has to be some heat gradient due
| to the ice touching the outside of the fish)
| Ekaros wrote:
| Now I wonder about process of freezing fish inside block of
| ice. Does that affect the fish texture?
| thfuran wrote:
| Surely it makes the fish crunchier.
| blovescoffee wrote:
| Freezing is often worse than non-frozen but is actually
| fine for preserving freshness of fish. But actually putting
| a whole fish in an ice-block - I don't think anyone does
| that.
| dekhn wrote:
| Modern fishing frequently does on-ship flash freezing and
| the results are often better than fresh fish. At least one
| reason is that the freezing kills parasites. But also the
| fish will stay viable longer.
|
| The important detail is the method of freezing. Just
| tossing a fish into a regular freezer doesn't work. Flash
| freezing doesn't create large ice crystals which mess up
| the tissue.
| blovescoffee wrote:
| But then I would just vacuum seal and cook sous vide with an
| immersion circulator which would cost 1/20th the price of
| this oven
| brokencode wrote:
| I don't think there's a reason for it, it's just really cool.
| blackbear_ wrote:
| Oh, I thought this was one of those fancy consulting interview
| questions with a twist.
| dingnuts wrote:
| I'm a fan of Miele but isn't this just an ad? Couldn't the HN
| post be a link to something interesting about the technology
| instead of an advertisement?
| webstrand wrote:
| Yeah, I'm torn. The oven _is_ interesting, but the article is
| not.
| mckn1ght wrote:
| A better link was surfaced in
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39046841, but I can't edit
| the URL. Maybe dang will come along and help with that.
| hammock wrote:
| Miele's new Dialog oven is technically a combi
| microwave/convection/steam oven (similar to what Starbucks heats
| up your food in), but uses longer wavelength radiation than a
| standard microwave. Longer wavelengths can penetrate food more
| deeply.
|
| It's called RF solid state cooking. It uses radio frequency as a
| heat source. It allows for much higher precision (compared to
| traditional speed cooking methods that combine microwave
| technology and traditional oven elements) due to the RF signals
| providing a feedback loop. They respond back and help the oven
| understand and target specific zones within the cooking cavity.
|
| Hence the name: "Dialog"
|
| By regulating the oven's heat in one place, you can cook the fish
| while the ice stays frozen. Another such example is making cooked
| and raw salmon at the same time, by focusing the oven's action at
| specific areas of the salmon
| resolutebat wrote:
| Ok, that's the marketing spiel, but how does this differ from a
| regular microwave?
| londons_explore wrote:
| I suspect it uses phased array antennas to:
|
| * Direct microwaves at different parts of the food
| differently. That way you can cook some stuff lots while
| leaving other parts cold.
|
| * Detect which parts of the food are cooked - by watching the
| absorption of microwaves across a broad range of frequencies,
| you should be able to detect chemical reactions that happen
| at certain temperatures - eg. ice turning to water, or raw
| egg becoming cooked egg.
|
| Combine these two things, and you can cook food far 'better'
| - and get all of your meat to the perfect temperature while
| overcooking none.
| londons_explore wrote:
| Notably, I don't think you _need_ phased array antennas to
| do this. A few bits of spinning metal to scatter microwaves
| in random directions could instead be controlled by servos
| and lots of maths to send microwaves in very specific
| directions.
|
| And as long as you make sure you have feedback, you can
| realtime adjust the microwave power every few microseconds
| to do all the same things.
| joshspankit wrote:
| My intuition says phased arrays are the more reliable way
| to do this. Less moving parts and more control. As well,
| it feels like phased arrays in general are at a really
| good maturity to be used for this kind of application.
| vosper wrote:
| Because a regular microwave can't do what was described in
| the comment you're replying to? A microwave just heats
| everything - maybe irregularly, but not intentionally
| irregularly
|
| > By regulating the oven's heat in one place, you can cook
| the fish while the ice stays frozen. Another such example is
| making cooked and raw salmon at the same time, by focusing
| the oven's action at specific areas of the salmon
| zebracanevra wrote:
| https://youtu.be/wMwjHnspohU?t=585
|
| The oven knows how to cook the food. It knows this because it
| knows how much energy has been put in to the oven, and how
| much energy was not put in to the food. By subtracting how
| much energy was put in, from how much came out, it obtains
| the kilojoules of energy the food absorbed, or the Gourmet
| Unit.
|
| Does Miele also design missiles?
| hammock wrote:
| >Does Miele also design missiles?
|
| The technology comes form a company called Goji Food
| Solutions. This is the founder - he has a bunch of other
| patents, mostly focused in the medical devices, biotech and
| healthcare spaces:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Ben-Haim
| bombcar wrote:
| It's a reference to
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZe5J8SVCYQ
|
| > The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows
| this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting
| where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from
| where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a
| difference, or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses
| deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the
| missile from a position where it is to a position where
| it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it
| now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now
| the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the
| position that it was, is now the position that it isn't.
| FpUser wrote:
| >"The frozen outer layer prevents the food from overcooking or
| drying out during the cooking process."
|
| Other cooking tech does this as well. Wrapping in leaves and
| clay for example.
| the_mitsuhiko wrote:
| They have a pretty extensive introduction including the tech on
| YouTube. https://youtu.be/wMwjHnspohU
| marssaxman wrote:
| Ironic that the text is almost content-free, while the useful
| information is buried in a video.
| glitchc wrote:
| I stopped reading at "longer wavelength radiation than a
| standard microwave."
|
| A microwave do not irradiate your food. Rather, it uses an
| oscillating magnetic field to induce dipole heating (in mainly
| water molecules but also other dipoles that may be present in
| the food).
| aceki wrote:
| ...electromagnetic radiation?
| glitchc wrote:
| Edit: I stand corrected.
| mckn1ght wrote:
| Huh, TIL. So is this the same principle used in an
| induction stove top to heat the pan, just applied to
| water molecules instead of metal?
| Terr_ wrote:
| > [No electromagnetic radiation] whatsoever in a
| microwave.
|
| WTF!? Is this leaking out of some kind of weird
| electromagnetic health conspiracy theory subculture?
|
| Any trivial web search provides an avalanche of results
| explaining otherwise--that your microwave oven definitely
| uses electromagnetic radiation--including the EPA and
| FDA.
|
| Or is your thesis that everybody else is wrong about
| wave-particle duality and photons aren't real?
| bagels wrote:
| Magnetic fields radiate. It's radiation. It's just that it's
| not ionizing radiation.
| ramraj07 wrote:
| Isn't it true that ice does not heat up in even a regular
| microwave though?
| londons_explore wrote:
| Yes, but few people know that, so this still sounds
| impressive.
|
| I suspect I could do that 'cook fish in ice' demo in my home
| microwave after a few practice runs. The trick will be having
| the whole block of ice at -1C so the ice is solid, but the
| slightly salty water within the fish's body is not frozen,
| and therefore absorbs microwaves really well.
|
| Adding a little gelatine to the water will probably make it
| work even better, because then convection currents won't eat
| away at the ice so quickly.
| ugh123 wrote:
| Thanks! Thought this whole thing was a joke/prank until I read
| your explanation
| lifestyleguru wrote:
| ...and that's why you're not getting payrise this year. Rich
| people want cooked fish in ice.
| rpmisms wrote:
| I wonder if you could replace a sous vide bag with this...
| atentaten wrote:
| The strangeness of cooking a fish in ice made me think of another
| strange thing people do with fish -- Ying Yang Fish:
|
| https://www.odditycentral.com/foods/yin-and-yang-fish-a-cont...
| jahnu wrote:
| Truly disturbing!
|
| > First, the scales of the live fish were carefully removed
| without hurting it;
|
| That's a bold claim
| dangoodmanUT wrote:
| Was waiting for it to have AI
|
| Thank god no AI
| gumballindie wrote:
| The new corpo mantra is: "put ai in it and make it lame".
| arsome wrote:
| The GE Trivection oven again? Really?
| expazl wrote:
| Thank god, finaly! I was getting so annoyed at my ice melting
| when cooking fish and the beeswax melting when cooking
| tenderloin. Why didn't anyone think of this before? /S
|
| When you have a product you think is cool but you don't yet have
| a sales pitch. Wait until you figure out your sales pitch to
| release it. This might be a great oven, but the material just
| makes it seem like a really random gimmick that no one needs
| outside of filming TikToks about how random it is.
| cpr wrote:
| So it's like the DEW weapons that can cook half a car in the twin
| towers parking lot and leave the other half perfectly intact...
| joshspankit wrote:
| > The new M Chef cooking method utilises energy in form of
| _Gourmet Units_. The appliance maintains a _constant dialog with
| the ingredients_ to cook dishes in their entirety, until
| achieving the desired result.
|
| (emphasis mine)
|
| Personally I'd take this paragraph out of the marketing
| altogether. Making up your own units sounds suspicious, and
| making up ones that are generic + high concept sounds even more
| suspicious.
|
| The rest of the marketing tells me they might have a product
| that's truly new and interesting. Those (presumably real, and
| we'll find out when the public can test it) pictures are
| excitingly wild.
| dang wrote:
| Original URL was https://www.miele.com/brand/en/revolutionary-
| excellence-3868.... Readers may want to look at both.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2024-01-18 23:00 UTC)