[HN Gopher] Gas pumps freeze at Calgary gas stations [video]
___________________________________________________________________
Gas pumps freeze at Calgary gas stations [video]
Author : bilsbie
Score : 78 points
Date : 2024-01-14 14:02 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (calgary.citynews.ca)
(TXT) w3m dump (calgary.citynews.ca)
| aBioGuy wrote:
| Vehicular gas infrastructure is near 100 years of development and
| still has some edge cases.
|
| EV charging infrastructure is at about 10 years.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| The good news is we haven't forgotten all the lessons learned,
| many of which will be applicable.
| osigurdson wrote:
| In cold climates, EVs should absolutely include a propane tank
| to generate passenger heat and bring the battery into its
| proper operating range. Generating high entropy heat with low
| entropy electricity from a battery offends my sensibilities.
| declan_roberts wrote:
| As someone that drives an EV in cold weather, a propane tank
| for heat would be a huge improvement.
| audunw wrote:
| Most modern EVs have heat pumps. Not using heat pumps to
| generate heat - exploiting the larger than 100% efficiency
| you get in the process - offends my sensibilities.
|
| If we have propane, and want to use it for energy/heating,
| it'd be better to burn it at some large central efficient
| generator (perhaps supplying waste heat as district heating
| for nearby homes), and use the electricity to power heat
| pumps.
| bawolff wrote:
| Don't heat pumps stop working around -25C? That is
| obviously not going to be effective in alberta. (Current
| temp -36C [not including windchill])
| FredPret wrote:
| The windchill actually only affects humans - moist skin
| cools down faster in the wind.
|
| But -36 is enough to bring down heat pump efficiency a
| lot.
|
| This site [1] talks about heat pumps that work down to
| -30. Not good enough to trust your life to if you're an
| Albertan.
|
| [1] https://www.bchydro.com/news/conservation/2022/cold-
| weather-...
| kevin_nisbet wrote:
| > Not good enough to trust your life to if you're an
| Albertan.
|
| I believe the heat pumps intended for these climates
| provided alternatives for those cold days. If you want to
| stay all electric, it would include a resistive electric
| heater, but could be paired with some other fuel source.
|
| Personally, I'd seriously consider going ground source
| where temperatures like this are the norm, but that
| doesn't work for everyone either.
| osigurdson wrote:
| At -40C, the COP is only going to be 1.4. A natural gas
| fired cogen plant is 60% efficient so even without
| transmission losses this ultra complex arrangement is not
| more efficient at generating heat.
|
| You are conflating the efficiency of generating mechanical
| energy (where such arguments hold) with generating heat.
| bilsbie wrote:
| It could just be a secondary battery with cold compatible
| chemistry with just enough energy to warm up the main
| battery.
| osigurdson wrote:
| A 20lb propane tank is a 100 kWh battery (if only
| generating heat).
| pxeboot wrote:
| > In cold climates, EVs should absolutely include a propane
| tank to generate passenger heat
|
| I believe some EV buses are heated with propane or heating
| oil, so it would probably be feasible to add to personal
| vehicles as well.
| swader999 wrote:
| Propane freezes at about - 38.
| Plasmoid wrote:
| Liquefies. It's almost impossible to use at that temp
| though because you burn propane gas.
| speedgoose wrote:
| Good EVs can heat up their battery pretty fast using only
| electricity.
|
| I know someone who was using a diesel heater in its
| Mitsubishi I-miev, an old EV that had a terrible factory
| heating system. It did sound a lot less convenient than
| electric heating.
| bdcravens wrote:
| That's why I didn't get an EV until I bought my home.
| mmastrac wrote:
| As someone who lives in Calgary, a few random points:
|
| This is normal weather for us for a week or so every year. Some
| years we have longer snaps. Some years we have shorter snaps.
| When things get this cold, everything has a hard time
| functioning, including but not limited to infrastructure, people,
| vehicles and utilities.
|
| The electricity infrastructure in the province is poorly
| maintained and managed by the government and corporations that
| manage it. We have failed to invest in infrastructure that can
| handle both peak summer and winter loads.
|
| We received an emergency alert yesterday night describing how the
| grid was nearly at capacity. I wouldn't be surprised if we got
| another one today. The reason appears to be that both wind and
| gas generation are offline due to cold. Pool prices for
| electricity spiked to $1000/MWh (!).
|
| Electric vehicles would destroy the current grid because it's not
| even managed well enough to handle a barely electrified fleet of
| civilian vehicles. There's an argument that the EVs could act as
| a battery for the grid, but that would require significant
| technology investment that the province is not managed well
| enough to implement.
|
| There will still be arctic outflows even if the planet is warming
| up. Our winters will continue to suck despite the average global
| temps rising.
|
| Short story: the province is very cold, very badly managed, and
| there is not much anyone can do about it.
| hammyhavoc wrote:
| Wouldn't batteries have poor performance in these conditions
| anyway?
| voisin wrote:
| Probably not so bad in garages?
| hammyhavoc wrote:
| Looking at Canadian census data for AB, I'm not sure what
| the correlation of owning an EV and having access to a
| garage would be, but it's not going to be a super common
| combination.
|
| In those situations, how likely is someone to want to use
| potential vehicular range during a crisis and instead use
| it on juice for their home?
| klyrs wrote:
| I have a garage and an EV, but we haven't had the budget
| for the necessary electrical work to power the house.
| Teever wrote:
| You don't think that the kind of person who can afford an
| electric car can afford a garage to put it in?
|
| Most, if not all new builds have attached garages in the
| Edmonton area.
| hammyhavoc wrote:
| You're completely forgetting the demographics of people
| who rent, live in apartments, lease cars etc. You're also
| assuming everybody wants an EV or feels it is appropriate
| for the distances they need to travel.
| Teever wrote:
| Are there really that many apartment dwellers without
| access to a parkade in Alberta?
| sctb wrote:
| Low-rise apartment buildings without parkades are very
| common in Calgary and (I assume) Edmonton. Block heaters,
| extension cords, and high-quality ice scrapers are
| standard fare.
| Teever wrote:
| https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/as-
| sa/98...
|
| It looks like most Albertans live in a place where they
| have access to a garage for their car.
|
| I would imagine that many Albertans who live in an
| apartment also don't drive, or have access to a parkade.
| mmastrac wrote:
| I'm not an EV driver but from what I've heard from others,
| and at least with current battery technology, range is
| significantly reduced.
|
| I've seen a number of reports that Tesla ranges specifically
| are quite low at this temperature. I don't know if battery
| life rebounds when the weather improves.
|
| Gas engines also struggle to start in this weather and gas
| lines freeze, though they obviously throw off enough heat to
| eventually grudgingly function.
| kccqzy wrote:
| Yup range is reduced for all EVs. And of course range
| rebounds after the weather warms up; it's not like this
| temperature is enough to permanently damaging the battery.
|
| But on the other hand, heating the cabin is and remains
| much quicker than ICE engines. If you drive short distances
| the driver's experience is much better.
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| Depends on the model. All EVs are affected to some extent.
| But some models deal with this better than others. A 30-40%
| range reduction is reasonable to expect with most cars at
| very low temperatures. This is not a permanent loss. The
| other thing that happens is that cold batteries don't
| charge very well. Many modern EVs have battery management
| systems that manage the temperature of the battery for this
| reason. This improves both charging and range.
|
| Warming up the car of course costs some energy but it's a
| reasonable tradeoff. Some cars actually have heat pumps
| that make warming them up a bit more efficient. And of
| course a nice feature is that you can use an app to turn on
| the car so the car is nice and comfy by the time you get
| in.
|
| So, it's not that black and white and EVs are pretty
| popular all over Scandinavia (Norway especially) and in the
| arctic circle where they have some pretty extreme
| temperatures every winter. Teslas are pretty popular there
| and have been for many years.
|
| ICE cars also are affected by cold weather of course. You
| get range issues; maybe not as extreme as with EVs but
| 15-20% less efficiency is pretty normal. And they have all
| sorts of fluids besides fuel (brakes, coolant, oil, etc.)
| that can become problematic if it gets cold enough.
| Reliability is a much bigger concern than range with cold
| temperatures. And ICE cars have a lot more things that can
| fail when it gets cold.
| miohtama wrote:
| Litium ion and all mainstream battery technologies are fluid
| based and cannot operate in extreme cold.
|
| That's why EVs have a system to keep the battery pack warm.
| wcoenen wrote:
| The liquid electrolyte in EV batteries is typically a
| lithium salt + organic solvent. It doesn't freeze, and
| these batteries can actually operate in extreme cold. They
| just perform less well because the chemical reactions slow
| down.
|
| (My personal experience with EVs in the cold only goes down
| to -10C, with the vehicle parked outside overnight, no
| charger connected. I saw no issues expect for increased
| energy consumption.)
| capitainenemo wrote:
| The Albertan above was reporting a temperature of
| -32degC. Searching a few sites online, it was hard to
| find any data on that. -15degC meant 50% range. I'm
| guessing your car probably also has battery heating
| though. And so long as the grid was able to handle it
| (which does seem to be a problem from the comments above
| in Alberta even with their tiny EV fleet) most likely
| you'd just plug it in, and it would stay nice and warm
| all night with no range impact in the morning - at the
| cost of a bit of power..
| SoftTalker wrote:
| To be fair, a lot of petrol engines, and certainly diesel
| engines will have trouble starting at those temps unless
| they are in top condition. "Plug in heaters" are the
| solution there as well, to keep the engine block warm.
| Diesels will also need fuel treatement or fuel heaters to
| keep the fuel from turning to gel.
| speedgoose wrote:
| I drove my EV by -30 on Norway this month. Keeping about
| 19 degrees inside was using a lot of energy as cars
| aren't well insulated.
|
| The range is bad in winter but fast charging produces a
| lot of heat in the battery, you can see steam going from
| below the car while charging, that can then be moved to
| the cabin after. So long trips aren't that bad. But you
| spend more, for sure. And you need a good winter EV. A
| lot of EVs on the market are terrible winter EVs.
|
| Also, you don't keep the battery warm all night as it
| would waste too much energy, but you should pre-heat the
| battery if you want descent battery performances
| immediately after you drive. On my car, it takes a few
| minutes while connected to the wall. I can start it from
| the phone or program it.
| voisin wrote:
| Pretty crazy that the gas generation goes offline in the cold
| when part of Danielle Smith's rationale for a moratorium on
| renewables was "grid instability" requiring further study.
| Seems she panders to oil & gas, but the populace can't be happy
| with the price of electricity!
| mmastrac wrote:
| I don't think the population gets enough visibility into the
| price of electricity. Most of the population is on a fixed
| price plan and I don't understand the economics of it.
|
| I'm certain we'll hear about the "wind freezing" but nothing
| about why the gas plants were offline.
|
| Alberta is prime location for nuclear: remote, cold and
| environmentally stable. We could probably ween ourselves off
| gas plants in a few decades, build enough capacity for an EV-
| friendly grid and reduce emissions.
| FredPret wrote:
| Why is cold good for nuclear, getting rid of waste heat?
| Would that advantage not apply to all heat-based power
| plants?
| mmastrac wrote:
| I believe it comes down to the much more efficient
| cooling processes, and the fact that you don't need to
| maintain as much input resource infrastructure as with
| gas
|
| While a gas plant produces heat, the gas transport
| infrastructure may freeze, and you can have major cold
| start problems.
| sheepscreek wrote:
| Out here in Ontario, the electricity "distribution" costs
| often outweigh the cost of electricity itself.
| voisin wrote:
| Is that because the generation is nuclear and
| hydroelectric and so lower cost than natural gas like
| Alberta?
| tempest_ wrote:
| The base load is nuclear but it isnt necessarily cheap.
|
| The government tried to take away the hydro subsidies a
| couple years ago and a bunch of people who live in the
| middle of no where and use baseboard heating lost their
| shit so the government went right back to subsidizing it.
| Teever wrote:
| This is often the case in Alberta as well.
| respondo2134 wrote:
| this ispretty coomon in Alberta for all services. Right
| now electricity is epensive but natural gas was costing
| as much or more to get to your house as the actual gas
| itself. There are a lot of governments and government
| owned/associated companies all taking a flat fee and then
| a % of your usage.
| DwnVoteHoneyPot wrote:
| What do you mean? The emergency alert went out at 6:30pm when
| it was dark (no solar) and no wind (not windy and/or too cold
| for wind turbines to operate). Having more of grid rely on
| solar & wind wouldn't help. Replacing fossil fuel sources
| (which the NDP gov't paid $2B to do) has made situation
| worse. Gas generation going off line is a separate issue.
| sheepscreek wrote:
| Good points. Energy storage will be another big issue. Lithium
| batteries (and possibly others) lose capacity in colder
| weather. I think, since most batteries are developed for
| standard operating temps, maybe we need more research into
| developing a different battery chemistry that is primarily for
| use in colder climates.
| amatecha wrote:
| Indeed, such a chemistry already exists: Lithium Titanium
| Oxide (LTO) batteries charge & discharge normally down to
| something like -40 degrees
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-titanate_battery
|
| https://www.pv-magazine.com/2023/09/01/kstar-launches-all-
| in...
| matsemann wrote:
| Been quite cold in Norway last few weeks, and the news just
| loves to write stories about electric cars / buses having
| problems in that kind of weather.
|
| Of course it happens. But actually to a lower extent than ICE
| cars. The small 12v battery in an electric only needs to turn
| on the systems, and you're good to go with some reduced
| range. The 12v battery in an ICE will often have a hard time
| starting the motor in these temperatures. But that's not as
| news worthy..
| miohtama wrote:
| Last week a cold snap hit Finland. A lot of electricity supply
| was offline due to maintenance. The peak price at Nordpool,
| Internordic electronicity market, hit 2.5 eur/kWh or 2500
| EUR/mWh. This is 25x normal rate around 5c/kWh. The electricity
| demand flexed, being 30% under estimation/normal.
|
| As a retail electricity consumer you can choose between market
| rate (hourly) or a fixed price electricity. Despite cold snaps,
| market rate saves long term.
| hn_go_brrrrr wrote:
| Unless I'm misunderstanding youz it's 50x, not 25x:
|
| 2.5 EUR = 50 * 0.05 EUR
| sjs382 wrote:
| Exactly what happened in Texas in 2021.
|
| The parallels between Alberta and Texas always amuse me for
| some reason.
|
| Wishing you best luck during this event!
| bdcravens wrote:
| Just wait a couple of days and you might be saying Texas in
| 2024. We've made minimal changes to our grid since then.
| pixl97 wrote:
| Hopefully the duration and lack of significant snow during
| these events this year will minimize the chance of PTSD for
| us. We should only be seeing 3 to 4 days of below freezing
| temps where in 2021 we saw over a week.
| gonzo wrote:
| ERCOT seems to be well-prepared (pun intended) for this
| cold snap.
| jeffrallen wrote:
| It's the resource curse.
| thebruce87m wrote:
| > Electric vehicles would destroy the current grid
|
| I'm not convinced it's a simple as that.
|
| My EV chargers at night during low demand. The energy provider
| decides exactly when (they start and stop multiple times per
| night), and gives me a rate of 1/4 of the normal as a benefit.
|
| My usage pattern is to charge every night, but I only use about
| 10% during a normal day. So on average I am close to fully
| charged at any one time, and can therefore go a week without
| charging.
|
| There is also vehicle-to-grid as you described.
|
| My national grid had so many people making inaccurate
| statements about EVs that they made a page specifically to
| address them: https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-
| net-zero/ele...
| itsoktocry wrote:
| > _My EV chargers at night during low demand_
|
| Easy when EVs are 1% market share. If/when they are 25%+ you
| can't hide behind low demand at night time.
| thebruce87m wrote:
| I don't know all of the variables to calculate that
| properly, things like electricity savings from closing
| refineries and petrol stations are things I can't
| calculate. I do see a lot of people spreading FUD on the
| topic that don't know either so I'm interested in what your
| numbers are. What do you think the impact of 25% EV
| ownership would be?
|
| Edit, from my article:
|
| > Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we estimate
| demand would only increase by around 10%. So we'd still be
| using less power as a nation than we did in 2002, and this
| is well within the range the grid can capably handle.
|
| So let's say for 25% of people converting we would have a
| 2.5% increase in demand on a daily basis. If we spread that
| over a 6 hour period then we then get back to 10% uptick
| during that 6 hour period.
|
| Here is the total energy production in the UK over a week:
| https://electricityproduction.uk/total/?t=7d
|
| I can see that a 10% daily average (4 Gigawatt) bump at
| night would still put us much lower than daytime, so demand
| would still be considered low.
|
| Not sure of all my maths and assumptions, happy to hear
| other views.
| fasterik wrote:
| Grids are constantly adding capacity to keep up with
| demand. It's not going to go from 1% to 25% overnight.
| javawizard wrote:
| Right. From OP's comment I get the sense that the real
| problem is that Calgary's grid is poorly managed and may
| not be well placed to add the necessary capacity. For
| other, better managed grids in the world, you're almost
| certainly right.
| tamaharbor wrote:
| Better managed = more expensive. Are electric customers
| ready for that?
| thomasmg wrote:
| Better managed is not necessarily more expensive in the
| long run, specially when tanking into account secondary
| benefits such as improved economy because companies that
| care about stable grids build factories there. But yes,
| short term it is more expensive.
| caseysoftware wrote:
| It makes sense that we'd see temporary taxes, surcharges,
| and the like to upgrade the existing system. The question
| is: How long is "temporary"?
|
| In the US, a century is NOT out of the question for a
| "temporary" tax:
|
| > _The Spanish-American War has been over for more than
| 100 years, and now so is the tax imposed in 1898 to help
| fund it. As of Tuesday, all phone companies selling long-
| distance phone service are legally required to eliminate
| the 3 percent federal excise tax on long-distance
| service, which had been established in 1898 as a luxury
| tax on wealthy Americans who owned telephones._
|
| Ref from 2006: https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-
| industry/telecom-tax-imposed-...
| slavik81 wrote:
| If think skilled management is expensive, just wait until
| you see what incompetence costs.
| eldaisfish wrote:
| the HN crowd tends to be overzealous about the pace of
| change in several industries. Electricity here is a good
| example.
|
| No, the electric grid is not constantly adding power
| capacity. In fact, capacity expansions are planned on the
| timescale of decades. the previous comment is accurate -
| everyone switching to EVs even on a single, 80 home
| street can cause havoc for which we are unprepared.
| bushbaba wrote:
| Unprepared but solvable problem.
| thebruce87m wrote:
| The HN crowd is split across a lot of grids. Here are
| things my grid is doing:
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_Link
|
| https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2023/oct/09/worlds-
| larg...
| marcosdumay wrote:
| IMO, the helplessness of the US people when they talk
| about electricity distribution is hearth breaking.
|
| It's not even a "our society can't orchestrate this", but
| the opinion is usually "it's impossible for people to
| organize that way".
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| > it became operational on 1 October 2021 ... was first
| proposed in 2003
|
| Hardly disagrees with the "timescale of decades" remark
| parent is making.
| thebruce87m wrote:
| But it does show that it changes though. If there is a 10
| year pipeline with multiple projects in it then it's not
| static.
| eldaisfish wrote:
| My claim was that change on the electric grid is slow,
| moreso at the distribution level. No one is claiming that
| change doesn't happen so you are arguing against a
| strawman.
|
| If there is a ten year pipeline, design decisions are
| made years in advance. Hence my claim that even a single
| street switching to EVs will cause havoc.
| thebruce87m wrote:
| > No, the electric grid is not constantly adding power
| capacity.
|
| My strongest interpretation of this was you were saying
| that no capacity was being added. Any other
| interpretation doesn't make sense. Everyone already knows
| that grids don't have new capacity added on a constant
| basis, so nobody would say it. Even if it went through a
| growth phase, that would stop at some point for any
| number of reasons.
|
| I've done some calculations elsewhere in the thread that
| ( I think ) show that a 25% uptake of EVs in the UK all
| charged during the same 6 hour off-peak period would
| still not meet peak day demand. Even without those
| calculations I don't see how you can claim a streets
| worth of EVs would cause havoc.
| jstsch wrote:
| Here in NL there are continuous upgrades. Yes, the grid
| is stretched, and there are spots where commercial (or
| even additional residential) capacity is not available.
| But at the same time, the grid is upgraded on all levels,
| from street to international connectivity. It takes time,
| but EV's are no issue. Excess solar around noon is.
| petre wrote:
| NL is smaller than West Virginia and very densely
| populated.
| tedivm wrote:
| This entire thread started with a comment talking about
| how the grid hasn't been upgraded to keep up with demand.
| We've also all seen what happens in places like Texas
| during cold periods. Even beyond just demand, look at how
| California has a utility that regular burns down entire
| cities due to poor infrastructure and maintenance.
| tensor wrote:
| The entire thread started with a comment claiming that
| the cold ruins everything and the province is mismanaged
| so that's that there is no solution.
|
| But that's not that, clearly there is a solution, and
| that's to start improving the grid and increase the use
| of EVs. When every house has a battery backup system and
| charging infrastructure, and they build more power
| generation capabilities, nuclear or green, then you will
| see a hugely more robust grid and cars that will actually
| work well in even the coldest months.
| JeffSnazz wrote:
| > that's to start improving the grid and increase the use
| of EVs.
|
| Notably, one of these needs to occur before the other.
| refulgentis wrote:
| Sure, but, we're responding to someone in Calgary
| describing an overloaded electrical system in a
| relatively poor province, exceeding capacity during the
| coldest weeks of the year, as gas pumps freeze. Today.
|
| On a long enough timeline, setting aside money, sure, we
| can add:
|
| - add a backup battery to each house
|
| - add charging infrastructure to each house
|
| - build more power generation (nuclear or green)
|
| I don't think that's in dispute, and I'm not sure what to
| call it. Not off-topic, but...just sort of ramming
| forward describing something obvious, but as if it
| addresses something topical.
| rfrey wrote:
| Just a note that Alberta is not a poor province, and in
| fact has the highest GDP per capita of all the Canadian
| provinces. (Nunavut and the NWT have higher GDPs due to
| their large mining sector combined with tiny
| populations.)
|
| We also have the highest electricity bills of any
| Canadian province.
|
| The issue in Alberta is corporate grift and a hegemonic
| government that has a revolving-door arrangement with oil
| and gas companies.
| respondo2134 wrote:
| the provincial government has halted new wind and solar
| projects for at least a period of time, while the federal
| government continues to clamp down on any attempts at new
| fossil fuel plants, hydro takes decades and nuclear is a
| non-starter. Your first sentence is categorically false
| here, when discussiong near-term demand increases.
| kazinator wrote:
| Adding capacity to a grid is not like getting another
| rack of hard drives in server room.
| delfinom wrote:
| That's not really true. US electrical consumption is down
| 30% since the 1980s. You can thank significant
| advancements in electronics and electrical equipment.
|
| Many capacity projects are simply to replace aging, no
| longer economical plants.
| quickthrowman wrote:
| LED lighting and VFDs have reduced demand quite a bit,
| particularly the variable frequency drives since 50% of
| all electrical use is powering induction motors.
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| Works fine in Europe where we have percentages like that
| already. The mistake people make is assuming that cars are
| charging all the time when they are at home. The reality is
| that average day to day behavior cause that to be more like
| once a week for many drivers and that drivers can pick the
| moment when they charge. On any given day you might only
| use a few kwh. Mostly the collective charging behavior
| spreads out a little.
| kencausey wrote:
| I'm curious about this consistent claim that electricity is
| at low demand at night. Perhaps this is less true of areas in
| the winter with electrically provided heat?
| thebruce87m wrote:
| Here is the electricity production for the UK over the last
| week: https://electricityproduction.uk/total/?t=7d
|
| Not sure how it is for other parts of the world. Maybe
| places with heat pumps like Norway are different? We have a
| lot of gas for heating.
| citrin_ru wrote:
| The UK is heavy reliant on gas heating currently so only
| a small fraction of electrical energy on this graph is
| used for heating. With the switch to heat pumps and other
| forms of electrical heating the picture will change.
| thebruce87m wrote:
| The switch to heat pumps will be glacially slow. I've had
| a look at doing it on my property and my mums and gave up
| due to the need to change the pipes and radiators. I
| suspect only new-builds will go that route for a long
| time.
| zdragnar wrote:
| In Calgary, the overnight temp is -27 F for tonight.
|
| When the weather gets that cold, insulation and heating
| have a hard time keeping up.
|
| Homes that have natural gas furnaces draw so much that
| utility companies have a hard time keeping the lines at
| full pressure.
|
| People start using space heaters more and more, which moves
| the pressure to the electric grid.
|
| The problem with the cold is that it is worse at night, so
| there's less spare capacity overnight than normal.
|
| At least, this is what we went through in the upper Midwest
| a few years back. Right now it's -8 and things are running
| smooth as usual.
| grumple wrote:
| Do any houses use wood for heating, or at least as a
| backup for times like this? My brother had a wood stove
| with fireplace that is somehow installed in a way that it
| heats his ~2000 sqft, 2 story house. I think the system
| was expensive to install, but it's cheaper for him to use
| wood than the gas furnace. Granted it doesn't get nearly
| as cold here in Philly as it does in the midwest or
| Canada... lowest temp on the 10 day forecast is 14
| degrees as a overnight low. Having a backup heat source
| that is completely independent of the grid is reassuring
| imo.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| If I lived someplace where temperatures went that low I'd
| certainly want to have backup heat, regardless of what my
| primary heating system was. Either wood stove or at least
| a kerosene space heater and a supply of fuel.
| zdragnar wrote:
| Outdoor wood boilers are somewhat popular (don't help
| much without power though), but I'd hazard a guess that
| more homes than not just have a small backup generator
| rather than rely on any kind of wood heat.
|
| Might be different elsewhere; propane is cheaper than the
| national average where I live, so my experience might be
| skewed.
| 1000100_1000101 wrote:
| Ottawa, ON, Canada: https://hydroottawa.com/en/accounts-
| services/accounts/rates-...
|
| I can choose my rate plan. Regular:
| 7PM-7AM+weekends = 8.7c/kWH 11AM-5PM =
| 12.2c/kWH 7-11AM, 5-7PM. = 18.2c/kWH
| UltraLow: 11PM-7AM = 2.8c/kWH
| W/end 7AM-11PM = 8.7c/kWH W/day
| 7AM-4PM,9PM-11PM = 12.2c/kWH W/day 4PM-9PM =
| 28.6c/kWH Tiered: First 1000kWH =
| 10.3c/kWH Over 1000kWH = 12.5c/kWH
| dtgriscom wrote:
| Does it matter? If the utility can control EV charging
| times, then all that is necessary is that non-EV demand
| varies significantly. I haven't heard anyone claim that
| electric demand is anywhere near constant.
| eldaisfish wrote:
| One correction - Alberta's wind turbines aren't generating
| power because the wind speeds are low, not because of cold.
| Wind speed around Edmonton yesterday was under 5 m/s and today
| as well. Most of Alberta's wind farms are around Pincher Creek
| where wind speeds are forecast to be below 5 m/s for the next
| few days. 5 m/s is important because it is around these speeds
| where most wind turbine start generating power.
|
| Most wind turbines will run just fine at temperatures of -30 C
| with a few internal heaters for fluids and some electronics.
| ilrwbwrkhv wrote:
| Canada as a whole is a badly managed failing country with the
| worst conditions out of all other developed nations. They hang
| on to a thin thread of "we are not like the US" but fail to
| understand that having real estate and mining resources cannot
| sustain a country forever. You need entrepreneurship,
| competition and risk taking.
| fifteen1506 wrote:
| And $500 a month health insurance, otherwise you are milking
| the States' investment in developing new medicine,
| essentially making Americans pay for the world's research.
| jedberg wrote:
| Amusingly, us Americans then turn around and get our drugs
| from Canada because it's cheaper. Presumably because it's
| subsidized by your tax dollars.
|
| It's a weird symbiotic relationship.
| tensor wrote:
| And yet objective studies of things like quality of life [1],
| access to medicare [2], and other metrics, always seem
| completely at odds with claims like yours. We may not be the
| top in all metrics, but we are far from the "the worst of all
| developed nations." Data sure is inconvenient when we're
| spreading hyperbole and misinformation on the internet!
|
| [1] https://www.usnews.com/news/best-
| countries/rankings/quality-... [2]
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5595214/
| ilrwbwrkhv wrote:
| data lags tremendously.
| refulgentis wrote:
| This isn't remotely true on any measure, but I'm definitely
| interested in seeing _anything_ that led you to this
| conclusion. And I love tweaking Canada! I grew up in Buffalo!
| Tiktaalik wrote:
| > Electric vehicles would destroy the current grid
|
| If only the government wasn't openly hostile to new energy
| projects. Alas.
| gonzo wrote:
| So Texas / ERCOT isn't alone, and PG&E isn't an anomaly.
|
| This is everywhere.
| anonuser123456 wrote:
| I think you are misattributing "doesn't work the way I want"
| for "very badly managed".
|
| Investment has costs. Maybe not everyone wants to pay those
| costs, consumers included.
| handoflixue wrote:
| If you don't pay the investment costs, then you pay "Pool
| prices for electricity spiked to $1000/MWh" costs. It's
| certainly possible there are math-illiterate people who can't
| work out which path is better, but that doesn't mean it's not
| "very badly managed"
| bawolff wrote:
| I'm confused by all this. I grew up in alberta (fort mcmurray
| which is north of calgary). I don't live there now. While
| obviously this is cold, it is not abnormally cold weather.
| Growing up we had weather on par with this or maybe a little
| colder at times. I dont remember gas pumps ever freezing. What
| gives?
| giantg2 wrote:
| Maybe the ethanol blend, especially if it has water in it?
| FredPret wrote:
| I'm from a hot place and moved to Calgary a couple of years ago.
|
| I'll never forget my first time driving in a cold snap like this.
| It was -35C and I forgot to plug in my gas powered car. It
| started the second time, but it drove so weirdly for half an
| hour. I think the various transmission fluids and lubricants
| must've been frozen or extra viscuous.
|
| But at least it worked! Would not want to be stuck in the
| mountains in an EV unless it had a propane tank or 800km range or
| something.
| BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 wrote:
| Yep, even with a manual transmission in neutral you can feel
| the lubricant viscosity bringing up the clutch at -30C. My
| car's outside temperature display doesn't show temperature
| below -30 and it takes time for the radio to start working.
| Seat warmers are really appreciated as you don't need to wait
| for the engine to warm up enough to heat the interior.
|
| Block heaters run about 400W. It helps a lot to have a garage.
| When it's this cold, I also run a battery charger as living in
| a walkable neighborhood, I can go several days without using my
| car and the battery sags in the cold.
| Klonoar wrote:
| ...did you drive it immediately after staring it? Barring any
| emergencies I always wait minimum 10 minutes in cold weather to
| let the fluids warm up and cycle through.
| jacquesm wrote:
| I had a Honda Hybrid in Northern Ontario and it took a lot of
| planning to keep that car working during the coldest period of
| the year. Usually the dash would completely fail even if the
| engine would run and it took 1/2 hour or so for the car to
| properly warm up. I ended up keeping it indoors and only to
| roll it out just prior to a drive (and let it warm up outside
| to avoid CO2 poisoning).
| autoexec wrote:
| If you haven't already seen the video don't bother. There is no
| interesting visual of frozen gas pumps, just stock footage of gas
| pumps and people using ones that aren't frozen while a voice over
| says that some were freezing and that nothing could be done but
| to wait for them to unfreeze. The video adds nothing.
| andrewinardeer wrote:
| I could hear the significant apathy in the gas station
| attendent's voice even though their comment was narrated by the
| presenter. That was nice.
| Panino wrote:
| > just stock footage
|
| > The video adds nothing
|
| This seems to be the case more often than not. Who is the
| intended audience for these videos and what's the motivation?
| Usually they don't contain ads, and just suck bandwidth and
| take money to cobble together, so I don't see how _anyone_
| benefits.
| kccqzy wrote:
| It's originally meant for TV broadcast, so they need some
| kind of footage even if they have nothing relevant.
| pxeboot wrote:
| In some arctic locations, they keep the gas pumps fully enclosed
| and heated, with only the hoses accessible from the outside. You
| need to go in a little shed to swipe your card and select the
| grade.
|
| One example:
| https://www.go2moon.com/image/DaltonHwy/Dalton-S3.html
| jacquesm wrote:
| That's a clever solution!
| fleventynine wrote:
| A reddit thread with anecdotes from EV owners during this cold
| snap:
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/Calgary/comments/194yg8x/how_are_yo...
|
| General consensus was that while some models lost ~40% of their
| range, the cars were more than adequate for getting around the
| city, even when parked on the street overnight.
| canucker2016 wrote:
| from CBC, https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/ev-
| cold-nort...:
|
| ====
|
| In 2023, Seattle-based firm Recurrent measured range loss in
| EVs at temperatures between -7 C and -1 C, and found 18 popular
| models had an average of 70 per cent of their range in freezing
| conditions, though there was a wide discrepancy depending on
| the vehicle.
|
| Starting with a full charge, Vejvoda's long-range 2020 Tesla
| Model 3 predicted he'd get to McBride with five to 10 per cent
| charge remaining.
|
| Instead, he said, the vehicle did better than expected and had
| about 25 per cent when he reached the charging point.
|
| He said the vehicle had about a 40- to 50-per-cent loss in
| efficiency.
|
| [stuff deleted]
|
| "That just goes to show that these cars have come a long way
| ... but [this loss] would be the worst-case scenario," he said,
| adding he's only seen eight per cent loss during regular city
| use in -20 C weather.
|
| "The highway is not where an EV shines to begin with ... and
| it's going to have more trouble because of the air flow under
| the battery being so cold."
|
| Rowell says it's important to note gas vehicles also lose
| efficiency in cold weather as frigid temperatures can affect
| fuel economy.
|
| ====
| rkagerer wrote:
| Gasoline itself freezes at -75degC/-103degF.
|
| I gather the temperature in Calgary is around -30degC. So I
| presume it's the pump infrastructure that can't handle the cold,
| not the fuel itself freezing (which would also impact vehicles).
|
| I used to live in Ottawa where it got that cold at least once a
| year (I remember skiing in Tremblant once at -40degC) and their
| pumps still generally managed cope - at least before they started
| getting LCD screens.
| pi-e-sigma wrote:
| Gasoline can freeze well above -75degC/-103degF, it all depends
| on the actual composition and various additives. And even if
| it's not frozen it can be so sticky (viscous) that you can't
| use it anyway
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Or it could have water in it. There's always some water in
| retail fuel. The pumps have filters to capture it, but if
| they freeze the fuel can't flow.
| jacquesm wrote:
| The water tends to pool at the bottom of the tank due to
| gravity. Source: former gas station owner. At -40 C the
| bigger issues are: pump lubrication, metal becoming
| brittle, shrinkage of parts made of different metals
| causing friction and wear (but this does tend to heat up
| the mechanism!), electronics malfunctioning. That's why we
| had very old pumps without any electronics at all and those
| functioned very well in deep winter, as long as we had
| power (for which we had a backup diesel generator). Not a
| single lost day of business in the four years that we owned
| that station. Far more modern stations nearby on highway 17
| were doing much worse.
| Tiktaalik wrote:
| Wild stuff.
|
| We often read concern trolling about how BEVs will fail and
| struggle in winter climates but the reality is that ICE vehicles
| need a fair amount of special care in the winter as well, and the
| infrastructure is also fragile. This story here a remarkable
| example of that.
|
| Was chatting with my Dad about all this and he brought up his war
| stories of trying to get an ICE car to start in a Winnipeg
| winter.
|
| God help you if you didn't plug in the block heater.
| jacquesm wrote:
| God help if you did get your car running but ended up stranded
| by the roadside somewhere. Road travel in Canada in deep winter
| is a serious exercise in risk management, your life may well be
| on the line.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2024-01-14 23:01 UTC)