[HN Gopher] LG washing machine sending 3.7GB of data a day
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       LG washing machine sending 3.7GB of data a day
        
       Author : monkburger
       Score  : 115 points
       Date   : 2024-01-13 21:11 UTC (1 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.tomshardware.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.tomshardware.com)
        
       | monospaced wrote:
       | > In a follow-up post a day after his initial Tweet, Johnie noted
       | "inaccuracy in the ASUS router tool." Other LG smart washing
       | machine users showed device data use from their apps. It turns
       | out that these appliances more typically use less than 1MB per
       | day.
        
         | monkburger wrote:
         | Ah! I should have read a little further. I apologize!
        
         | seanalltogether wrote:
         | If these devices are designed to upload "automatic diagnostic
         | reports" to a central tracker, it's possible this machine is
         | stuck in a failure state that is generating massive amounts of
         | error logs.
        
         | cratermoon wrote:
         | A megabyte a day still seems excessive.
        
           | dgrin91 wrote:
           | If you agree to some form of anonymous tracking for
           | diagnostics I can see 1mb being reasonable. This would be
           | periodic update on things like usage levels, part quality,
           | etc.
           | 
           | Most likely that tracking acceptance is buried in some 500
           | page eula, but thats a separate issue.
        
             | solardev wrote:
             | Why do you need an entire megabyte for that? Even if you
             | did laundry five times a day, it shouldn't take more than a
             | few bytes to store a few metrics.
             | 
             | Even if you're lazy and uploaded an uncompressed JSON array
             | of objects, that shouldn't be more than a few kB. Way less
             | if you compress it.
             | 
             | A megabyte is a LOT of data.
        
               | crazygringo wrote:
               | I could easily see it measuring the forces and weight on
               | the drum every 5 seconds (or even every 10 ms) during the
               | whole wash, to be able to produce charts of vibration
               | patterns, that engineers could use to correlate with
               | failure. Remember -- when you're spinning at high speed
               | to wring out the water, it's actually some pretty crazy
               | strong forces.
               | 
               | Or other things measured every ~second, like stuff
               | related to the motor, temperatues, humidity, etc. and
               | other diagnostics.
               | 
               | Seems _really_ easy to generate a megabyte if you
               | consider time series. Even easier if it 's in XML or JSON
               | rather than a CSV.
        
           | jstummbillig wrote:
           | It seems completely inconsequential
        
             | Brian_K_White wrote:
             | It seems completely inexplicable.
             | 
             | I don't care if it's a small percentage of my symmetric
             | gigabit fiber, I only care why they supposedly need it and
             | where it ends up.
             | 
             | A phone number or a timestamp is a tiny amount of data.
             | 
             | In the quaint olden days, you had to go out of your way to
             | volunteer to be a part of some study to have any aspect of
             | your activity recorded every few seconds 24/7 to be
             | collected and analysed like that.
             | 
             | It also doesn't matter that my washing machine usage might
             | not seem like sensitive info. It's wrong by default rather
             | than OK by default. You need a compelling need to justify
             | it, not the other way around. It needs to be necessary to
             | prevent one dead baby every day or something, not the other
             | way around. No one needs to produce any convincing example
             | of harm for that kind of collection to be wrong.
             | 
             | But even so, it's easy to point out how literally any data
             | can end up being sensitive. Washing machine usage could
             | lead to all kinds of assumptions like, this person does not
             | actually live where they say they do (which impacts all
             | kinds of things), or this person is running an illegal
             | business, or housing too many people for the rating of the
             | dwelling or allowed by the lease, etc, or just another data
             | point tracking your movements in general. Or even merely to
             | get out of 10% of warranty claims.
        
           | gberger wrote:
           | It's 12 bytes per second, or less than 1kB per minute.
           | Doesn't seem like much.
        
             | poisonborz wrote:
             | For telemetry on a washing machine, it is enormous.
        
               | jethro_tell wrote:
               | That's WiFi/Bluetooth signal strength mapping amounts of
               | data.
        
         | ParetoOptimal wrote:
         | Other users having low data usage doesn't prove they also have
         | low usage?
         | 
         | Are people so uncomfortable saying "we don't know" that they
         | use such loose reasoning to "get the answer"?
         | 
         | I'll re-read the article/tweets, maybe I missed something.
        
         | yakz wrote:
         | My Ubiquiti UniFi UDM is not good at device identification.
         | It's kind of annoying because I have this big list of devices
         | on the network and it's peppered with devices that I know don't
         | exist. I'd appreciate it if it said something like "Maybe iPad
         | Air", instead of just "iPad Pro 2nd Gen" when I know no such
         | device is on my network.
        
           | stock_toaster wrote:
           | ios devices (unsure about android) use random MACs on
           | wireless networks by default.
           | 
           | https://support.apple.com/en-us/102509
        
             | vsgherzi wrote:
             | Random aside for this, I believe this functionality existed
             | for many years but actually hasn't worked until recently.
             | (Take this with a grain of salt)
        
           | NelsonMinar wrote:
           | The traffic stats my UDM shows are complete fiction. The data
           | it presents makes no sense.
        
       | boringuser2 wrote:
       | A couple of notes:
       | 
       | 1. If you must have an IoT device, favor zigbee.
       | 
       | 2. Put your IoT devices on a segmented network that you've
       | throttled. IoT devices neither need nor deserve privileged
       | network access.
       | 
       | 3. Probably don't use a consumer grade router if you know how to
       | monitor network traffic.
       | 
       | 4. That all being said, it feels unlikely that an IoT device
       | would be exposed on a properly configured router to anything
       | beyond vendor spyware.
        
         | globular-toast wrote:
         | It shouldn't even need internet access. IoT is a stupid name.
         | It's just networking.
        
           | boringuser2 wrote:
           | Uhhh, alright.
           | 
           | Anyhow, many devices require network access for useful
           | functionality.
           | 
           | That network is ideally zigbee.
           | 
           | (It's also possible for Bluetooth to make up for some of the
           | lost featureset for non-realtime applications, so I'd favor
           | Bluetooth smart devices over wifi smart devices.)
        
             | globular-toast wrote:
             | Yes, Zigbee is the way to go. But the point is there
             | shouldn't be any internet involved. Using the internet
             | protocol on wifi is the stupidest way to do this kind of
             | stuff and leads to dumb crap like your washing machine
             | phoning home.
        
               | boringuser2 wrote:
               | I mean, it's obviously a pretty good product in terms of
               | effortlessly providing networking to a device in a way
               | that an average home user can manage. Everyone has wifi.
               | 
               | That being said, a better architected device would
               | probably just use Bluetooth and your smartphone as a
               | controller. I don't think many average home users could
               | tell the difference.
        
         | jrockway wrote:
         | I disagree with some of these points:
         | 
         | 1. Z-wave is better, but Wifi can be fine in the right
         | environment. Like, my weather station uses Wifi because it
         | sends a few bytes of data to a server once a minute. No need
         | for an additional protocol going on that interferes with
         | everything else on 2.4GHz anyway. I also use Wifi for a sensor
         | I put in my box that stores 3D printer filament to measure its
         | humidity, so I know when to recharge the desiccant. An ESP32
         | wakes up every half hour, measures the humidity, and sends it
         | over HTTPS to an InfluxDB instance in "the cloud". Its tiny
         | lithium polymer battery lasts a year. It took me maybe an hour
         | to design the hardware and write the software for it. Why do
         | anything more complicated? Why bother with an esoteric protocol
         | when you just want to use the Internet?
         | 
         | 3. Consumer grade routers are great these days. I have a 10G
         | WAN, 10G LAN, and Wifi6e on the router that Verizon provides
         | with my service for free. To buy something like that myself,
         | I'd be spending 700 or 800 dollars so that I can pretend to be
         | a sysadmin on my day off. Why bother?
        
           | boringuser2 wrote:
           | 3. I don't think you're understanding what the contentions
           | about consumer grade routers are.
           | 
           | Make no mistake: consumer grade routers are a massive
           | security risk, and continue to be to this day.
           | 
           | They have no incentive to respond to and mitigate CVEs.
           | 
           | They frequently have hardwired credentials.
           | 
           | They don't have robust networking tools.
           | 
           | They are common targets for hacks for these reasons.
           | 
           | Regarding throughput, yes, 10gb is quite a bit. It'd probably
           | be somewhat troublesome to get a home router with those kinds
           | of physical ports (though CPU throughput would be trivial,
           | see Intel's latest offerings. The n100 range can saturate any
           | reasonable connection, including IPS, which you don't have).
           | 
           | It's just not necessary, though. I am a power user, software
           | engineer, hosting ~50 docker containers, many with custom
           | code on 300mbps. No slowdown. No saturation.
           | 
           | Furthermore, a cheap enterprise AP from eBay, even on wifi 5,
           | is vastly superior to your Verizon AP.
           | 
           | I'm not a networking professional. I installed OpnSense and
           | connected a ruckus AP. Done.
           | 
           | 1. If you had a decent AP, zigbee interference wouldn't be an
           | issue, wink emoji.
        
       | hamandcheese wrote:
       | I'm not opposed to smart homes, I love being able to turn my
       | lights on and off from across the room. But I don't know if I
       | understand the use case for a networked washing machine.
        
         | t-writescode wrote:
         | Progress tracking, diagnostics, temperature tracking, load
         | unevenness alerting, remote disable if broken, etc.
        
         | Analemma_ wrote:
         | I could imagine a situation like, "I will be out all day and
         | only return in the late evening - if I start the wash cycle
         | when leaving, it will sit wet in the machine all day. But if I
         | start it when I return, I will have to stay awake to put it in
         | the dryer. I'd like to start it on a timer so the wash cycle
         | finishes just as I return." But that's both pretty contrived
         | and most non-smart washing machines can do that with a timer
         | anyway.
        
         | nomel wrote:
         | I get significantly cheaper electricity at night ($0.12 vs >
         | $0.50/kwh, stupid California). Being able to schedule saves
         | money, not that WiFi is necessarily required.
        
           | dzhiurgis wrote:
           | Did you check how much power your washer uses? Mine uses 0.4
           | kwh so you'd be saving 15.2 cents per load. Not really worth
           | the hassle IMO.
        
             | yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
             | The dryer is more interesting
        
           | Eisenstein wrote:
           | How much electricity is your washing machine using?
        
           | HPsquared wrote:
           | A lot of washing machines remember their previous state when
           | the power goes out.
           | 
           | You can use this to your advantage using a smart switch:
           | start the wash cycle, turn off the power straight after. When
           | you turn the power back on at a scheduled time (using the
           | smart switch), the washing machine will pick up where it left
           | off (at the beginning of the cycle).
           | 
           | Also a lot of them just have a timer built-in anyway.
        
         | cmckn wrote:
         | When I was in college, the machines in my dorm building's
         | laundry room would send you an SMS when the cycle finished. It
         | was super handy, and would be awesome to have if your home is
         | multi-level (or the machine is tucked away where no one can
         | hear it scream)
        
           | NoZebra120vClip wrote:
           | So we have three laundry rooms here where I live, and they
           | were all managed by CSC ServiceWorks until recently. When I
           | first moved in, CSC had an amazing system setup, whereby you
           | could go to their website and see a real-time animation of
           | all the machines in the room, their current status, and their
           | remaining time. This page updated very rapidly and always
           | showed accurate information, including any machines that were
           | out of service.
           | 
           | Therefore, it was very easy for me to put together some
           | laundry loads, and then navigate to that website and see
           | exactly whether I'd be able to go downstairs and start my
           | loads immediately, or how long I'd need to wait until
           | machines were freed up for my purposes.
           | 
           | Then they enshittified it. They took away the central payment
           | kiosk and installed individual card readers on each machine.
           | These card readers had some unholy mix of Bluetooth and WiFi
           | on them and the new app was completely incompatible with the
           | Android tablet I had at the time. Apparently it was mandatory
           | to have both Internet and BT access before you could even
           | start a machine anymore. To add insult to injury, they
           | deprecated the public status website and walled up the status
           | reports inside the app. In fact, you couldn't even get a
           | report until you'd paid to start one of the machines, thus
           | invalidating my old strategy of proactively checking for
           | availability.
           | 
           | Then there was a protracted battle between landlady and CSC
           | whereby there were many malfunctions and accusations about
           | whose responsibility it was. The pandemic struck, and there
           | was some third-party disinfecting service that was supposed
           | to be sanitizing machines, but left huge gobs of lint and
           | detritus behind them all anyway.
           | 
           | Eventually it came to a head, and the landlady severed their
           | contract with CSC and brought in a new service company. They
           | have apps and cash preloading and whatever and you know what?
           | I stopped using the laundry room entirely. Now I bring my
           | clothes to a Wash & Fold service, and have it professionally
           | cleaned, because doing laundry is too strenuous for me
           | anymore. Problem solved!
        
         | mft_ wrote:
         | I'm totally with you, except a notification that it's finished
         | would actually be really helpful.
         | 
         | It's apparently possible to track a washing machine's progress
         | with a smart switch that monitors power draw; I've got one
         | lying around so might try to implement that soon, to complement
         | my hacky RPi-Ring-doorbell-announcer :)
        
           | sroussey wrote:
           | My Miele washer and dryer send me notifications when done.
        
             | kioleanu wrote:
             | That is, I think, the only valid use case. I have an AEG
             | washer that does some voodoo to decide wash times and only
             | shows the estimate at the start, then it weighs the
             | clothes, looks at how dirty they are and so on. The washer
             | is two floors down and I never know when it's actually
             | done. As a side note, I think my washer is "smart" ready,
             | meaning it has all the electronics already in and the panel
             | has the lights already installed, just that it's not
             | activated because a didn't pay another 100 euros for it.
             | 
             | I guess another use case would be measuring water and
             | energy consumption but I doubt that people paying top
             | dollar for these appliances are the type to keep an eye on
             | such things.
        
           | dzhiurgis wrote:
           | Siri set a timer for *looks at washer screen* minutes
           | 
           | That's it. But tbh wish my smart speakers would learn all the
           | appliance chimes instead.
        
             | krallja wrote:
             | My dryer will straight up lie to me and say "20 minutes"
             | for anything between 0 and 60 minutes. I think it realizes
             | the clothes are still too damp and just keeps running, but
             | whatever differential equation it's using to predict time
             | remaining seems flawed.
        
             | DebtDeflation wrote:
             | My dryer timer is reasonably accurate, but on my washing
             | machine the last two minutes are like the last two minutes
             | of a football game.
        
               | mft_ wrote:
               | Yep - ours seems to take 0-10 minutes longer than it
               | predicts at the start.
        
             | varjag wrote:
             | You are still dependent on a smart gadget but with less
             | quality.
        
           | lloeki wrote:
           | > It's apparently possible to track a washing machine's
           | progress with a smart switch that monitors power draw;
           | 
           | Can confirm, it's what I do. I can even detect which part of
           | the cycle it is in using plain Home Assistant template
           | sensors.
           | 
           | It's crude but it works. Detecting washing vs not is trivial,
           | but I went the extra mile, looking at the power history and
           | analysed the thing visually to get the general profile of
           | each part, taking into account peaks, throughs, noise to have
           | some unambiguous rules. Some are wrong if taken in isolation
           | but taking the order of priority into account, flattening the
           | result with if/elif in a single state sensor it becomes
           | correct. That strategy is also very easy to debug visually
           | with a entity history list in the dashboard.
           | 
           | I could probably also detect error states (which I had a few,
           | like filter clogged with lint preventing water drain) as in
           | this case the panel stays lit with the error code basically
           | forever VS a normal cycle has it lit but ultimately it shuts
           | down to deeper sleep states once it's done.
           | 
           | I really enjoy making dumb devices smart, it's a nice
           | decoupling too and means I can just change e.g washing
           | machine if it dies, adjust a few values below, and be all the
           | merrier.
           | 
           | (nixos config, but it's a 1:1 to YAML and you get the idea)
           | services.home-assistant = {         #...              config
           | = {         #...           template = [             # washing
           | machine             # 5-6W: on (idle, panel lit)
           | # 4-5W: off (sleep after on, panel unlit)             #
           | 0.1-1W: off (deep sleep)             # 2100-2200W: water
           | heating             # noisy 8-100W, trough 10W: washing
           | # ramp-up 15-500W, plateau 300-500W, noisy 100W: spin dry
           | # 1300-1500W, trough 40W-150W: tumble dry             #
           | 7.5-8W 240s, peak 95-105W, 20-25W 30s: cooldown             {
           | sensor = [                 {                   name =
           | "washing_machine_power";
           | unit_of_measurement = "W";                   state_class =
           | "measurement";                   state = "{{
           | states('sensor.shellyplusplugs_80646fc7bb4c_switch_0_power')
           | }}";                 }                 {
           | name = "washing_machine_state";                   state = ''
           | {% if is_state('binary_sensor.washing_machine_heating', 'on')
           | %}                                                 heating
           | {% elif is_state('binary_sensor.washing_machine_drying',
           | 'on') %}                       drying                     {%
           | elif is_state('binary_sensor.washing_machine_spinning', 'on')
           | %}                       spinning                     {% elif
           | is_state('binary_sensor.washing_machine_cooling', 'on') %}
           | cooling                     {% elif
           | is_state('binary_sensor.washing_machine_washing', 'on') %}
           | washing                     {% elif
           | is_state('binary_sensor.washing_machine_idle', 'on') %}
           | idle                     {% elif
           | is_state('binary_sensor.washing_machine_sleeping', 'on') %}
           | sleeping                     {% elif
           | states('sensor.washing_machine_power') | float(default=0) <
           | 0.01 %}                       off                     {%
           | endif %}                   '';                 }
           | ];               binary_sensor = [                 {
           | name = "washing_machine_active";                   state = ''
           | {{ states('sensor.washing_machine_power') | int(default=0) >
           | 30 }}                   '';                   delay_on = {
           | minutes = 2; };                   delay_off = { minutes = 2;
           | };                 }                 {                   name
           | = "washing_machine_heating";                   state = ''
           | {{ states('sensor.washing_machine_power') | int(default=0) >
           | 1900 }}                   '';                   delay_on = {
           | seconds = 5; };                   delay_off = { seconds = 10;
           | };                 }                 {                   name
           | = "washing_machine_drying";                   state = ''
           | {{ states('sensor.washing_machine_power') | int(default=0) >
           | 1000 and states('sensor.washing_machine_power') |
           | int(default=0) < 1600 }}                   '';
           | delay_on = { seconds = 5; };                   delay_off = {
           | seconds = 120; };                 }                 {
           | name = "washing_machine_washing";                   state =
           | ''                     {{
           | states('sensor.washing_machine_power') | int(default=0) > 30
           | and states('sensor.washing_machine_power') | int(default=0) <
           | 150 }}                   '';                   delay_on = {
           | seconds = 120; };                   delay_off = { seconds =
           | 45; };                 }                 {
           | name = "washing_machine_spinning";                   state =
           | ''                     {{
           | states('sensor.washing_machine_power') | int(default=0) > 150
           | and states('sensor.washing_machine_power') | int(default=0) <
           | 500 }}                   '';                   delay_on = {
           | seconds = 5; };                   delay_off = { seconds = 5;
           | };                 }                 {                   name
           | = "washing_machine_cooling";                   state = ''
           | {{ states('sensor.washing_machine_power') | int(default=0) >
           | 6 and states('sensor.washing_machine_power') | int(default=0)
           | < 30 }}                   '';                   delay_on = {
           | seconds = 90; };                   delay_off = { seconds =
           | 60; };                 }                 {
           | name = "washing_machine_idle";                   state = ''
           | {{ states('sensor.washing_machine_power') | int(default=0) >
           | 1 and states('sensor.washing_machine_power') | int(default=0)
           | < 6 }}                   '';                   delay_on = {
           | seconds = 1; };                   delay_off = { seconds = 1;
           | };                 }                 {                   name
           | = "washing_machine_sleeping";                   state = ''
           | {{ states('sensor.washing_machine_power') | float(default=0)
           | > 0.01 and states('sensor.washing_machine_power') |
           | int(default=0) < 1 }}                   '';
           | delay_on = { seconds = 1; };                   delay_off = {
           | seconds = 1; };                 }               ];
           | }           ];
        
           | erinnh wrote:
           | Definitively possible. It's what I do with my dumb washing
           | machine. Just have your home automation tool of choice notify
           | you if power draw moves below 5w or something.
        
             | Moru wrote:
             | We live in a smaller appartment building with a shared
             | laundry room with two machines. They both say exactly how
             | many minutes the laundry has left so we just set our timer
             | for the last machine. They take between 35 and 55 minutes
             | per run. We can run 6-8 machines in the five hour slot we
             | can book. Since they slowly get desynced depending on what
             | program you run, there is no need to get a notification.
             | You have 20 minutes to sit until the next machine needs
             | taking care of :-)
        
           | jliptzin wrote:
           | This is the best approach, if you can do it. Keep the devices
           | dumb and add in whatever modules you need on top to make them
           | as "smart" as you want them to be.
        
             | whstl wrote:
             | Some Ikea stuff does it halfway. Local-only Zigbee, so it's
             | not exactly dumb, but if you want to go online you can buy
             | a gateway.
        
           | urdbjtdvbg wrote:
           | Wait an hour. It's done.
        
             | mft_ wrote:
             | Our washing machine offers various programs between 30
             | minutes and 2 hours and 40 minutes.
             | 
             | Yes, it's not hard to set an alarm, except the timing on
             | the washing machine is unreliable (I've lost count of how
             | many times I've set an alarn with a few minutes extra and
             | still had to wait longer.) It would just be nice to have a
             | little notification - making that chore 1% pleasanter. :)
        
               | poisonborz wrote:
               | They all make a sound when done, you could set up a SoC
               | with a microphone to listen to it. Or monitor power draw.
               | Many ways to do it externally.
        
               | noirbot wrote:
               | My worry would be that you'd have to do some diagnostics
               | on the audio to determine the actual sound. The loudest
               | noise my washer makes is the spin/rinse cycle, which is
               | right before the sound it makes when it's done. You can't
               | just key off of "loud noise" and I don't know how hard
               | setting up to listen to specific frequencies for alerting
               | is.
        
           | dist-epoch wrote:
           | NSA filters the power to sensitive computers.
           | 
           | You can exfiltrate encryption keys if you can monitor power
           | usage.
           | 
           | https://www.securityweek.com/platypus-hackers-can-obtain-
           | cry...
        
         | XorNot wrote:
         | I have a smart plug on my washing machine and dryer which I use
         | to try and identify when the cycles have finished.
         | 
         | It doesn't work great, I'd much prefer a direct API to send a
         | notification when the machine says it's actually finished.
        
           | kioleanu wrote:
           | You can buy smart vibrations sensors for that. No vibrating
           | should mean it's done, unless it lets the clothes soak- I
           | have no idea, washed clothes hundreds of times but I've never
           | looked to see what the washer actually does
        
         | daveoc64 wrote:
         | I have an LG Washer/Dryer with smart functions.
         | 
         | As others have said, the notifications are useful, but you can
         | also track the wash/dry cycle and see what it's done so far,
         | what is left and the estimated remaining time.
         | 
         | I like it because the smart features are optional and are
         | genuinely useful.
        
           | RajT88 wrote:
           | My sister has such a smart washer and funds these same
           | features useful.
           | 
           | I had to helo her get it connected to wifi - it would not
           | stay connected. Turns out she was on the same channel as
           | literally all her neighbors.
        
       | mmastrac wrote:
       | I created a wifi network for most of the smart appliances at
       | home. It's nice that Unifi hardware lets you choose some of the
       | higher-level wifi protocol options per-network, so I have a
       | modern roaming-enabled 802.11 5GHz network for most devices, and
       | the legacy 2.4GHz one for the fridge and stove to make use of.
        
         | HPsquared wrote:
         | Most routers have a "guest network" - that's where all my smart
         | devices live.
        
           | account-5 wrote:
           | If I even connect them.
        
       | jbverschoor wrote:
       | New: data-efficient washing machine. Only 90Gb per load!! Buy
       | now!
        
       | amelius wrote:
       | Well it's still better than a Chinese robotic vacuum cleaner with
       | a bunch of cameras doing it.
        
         | dotancohen wrote:
         | iRobot, the robotic vacuum cleaner company that leaked photos
         | of people on the toilet as viewed from the vacuum cleaners'
         | cameras, is an American company. If I'm not mistaken they grew
         | out of MIT.
        
           | quitit wrote:
           | That's rather cherry-picked.
           | 
           | The information you left out:
           | 
           | 1. Those were test units, not purchased devices used by
           | customers.
           | 
           | 2. For consumer Roomba devices that include a camera:
           | photographic data is not sent to iRobot for processing.
           | 
           | 3. The test data for the images you mentioned was leaked by a
           | 3rd party based in Venezuela.
           | 
           | 4. These test devices were operated by employees and
           | volunteers in exchange for rewards. They were aware that
           | their image was being taken.
           | 
           | 5. The devices also contained additional monitoring hardware
           | attached to the device which is not present in the consumer
           | models.
           | 
           | If anything this fiasco demonstrated:
           | 
           | (i) one of the weaknesses of outsourcing,
           | 
           | (ii) individuals taking part in testing should be mindful of
           | their privacy,
           | 
           | (iii) test units should have user-purgeable test data (if
           | this was not already included)
           | 
           | (iv) the importance of reading beyond a headline
           | 
           | Refs: (1) https://www.businessinsider.com/roomba-photos-
           | recorded-bathr...
           | 
           | (2) https://homesupport.irobot.com/s/article/31056
           | 
           | (3) https://homesupport.irobot.com/s/article/964
        
             | dotancohen wrote:
             | I read a headline, chose a position, and remember only the
             | grossest of one-sided arguments with no chance for the
             | other side to respond. Am I not now entitled to hold a
             | strong opinion and try to influence others in the matter?
        
         | rvba wrote:
         | It probably sends just sounds all the sounds
        
         | Towaway69 wrote:
         | China is cheaper than making it in the USA with an onboard NSA
         | chip. The assumption that China is spying on us is based ... I
         | dunno but why buy it if you are worried?
        
       | redbell wrote:
       | > An LG washing machine owner and _self-confessed fintech geek_
       | has asked the Twitterverse why his smart home appliance ate an
       | average of 3.66GB of data daily.
       | 
       | What about non-techies?! How would they notice and react to such
       | data harvesting behaviors in their homes' appliances, computers,
       | phones, gadgets? I believe there must be a bare minimum of self-
       | awareness to deal with the ever-evolving digital world we live
       | in.
        
         | userbinator wrote:
         | Awareness is the last thing the companies who create these
         | things want users to have.
        
       | H8crilA wrote:
       | Why hasn't anyone mentioned a botnet yet? Those devices are
       | perfect targets for Mirai clones.
       | 
       | (yes, you still cannot run a mailserver at home, currently
       | because we live in the age of Internet of Shit).
        
         | WhyNotHugo wrote:
         | This was the first thing that came to mind. Imagine a fleet of
         | laundry machines each sending 3.7GB of data. That's the perfect
         | way to run a DDOS, and nobody will ever notice.
        
           | account-5 wrote:
           | For some reason the scene in the mall from The Mitchell's Vs
           | the machines popped into my head:
           | 
           | > delicates, fluff n fold, carnage!
        
       | codeulike wrote:
       | 3.7GB seems like a lot, but modern appliances are highly
       | efficient, a lot of those bits just circulate between the laundry
       | and the router to cool down between wash cycles ... people just
       | don't understand how much data they use when hand washing
       | clothes, sloshing gigabytes down the drain...
       | 
       | (after https://twitter.com/meekaale/status/1744807035454079079 )
        
       | aidenn0 wrote:
       | Is anyone else surprised at the ~70GB per day usage (assuming
       | 3.7GB is 5% of total usage)? That would exceed the 1.28TB data
       | cap on my ISP.
        
       | ChrisArchitect wrote:
       | [dupe]
       | 
       | More discussion here with even the person who reported it
       | posting: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38930507
        
       | jakderrida wrote:
       | Stupid laundry machine spends all day on reddit downvoting my
       | jokes and memes.
        
       | tkems wrote:
       | While I get the appeal of having networked devices that you can
       | access from anywhere, I want local control for everything. Sure,
       | a cloud option on top is nice, but local first!
       | 
       | I feel that the current solution to "control from anywhere" is
       | the laziest and most privacy invasive. Also, when XYZ company
       | shuts down there service in 2 years and abandons your product,
       | you might not even be able to use it anymore. What a waste.
        
       | dist-epoch wrote:
       | The software was replaced by an AI, and it's watching YouTube
       | videos on how to do it's job.
        
       | freitzkriesler2 wrote:
       | If I recall correctly, his washer was mining Bitcoin.
        
         | evan_ wrote:
         | you do not recall correctly
        
         | Tommah wrote:
         | The newest form of money laundering.
        
       | userbinator wrote:
       | Assuming I'd be stupid enough to have a "smart" washing machine,
       | in this case I would've immediately started capturing packets to
       | determine what's going on. Apparently it was a misreporting(!) in
       | the router's firmware, but the opaqueness of modern technology
       | (and the ignorance it tends to perpetuate) can be very
       | infuriating.
       | 
       | Meanwhile my washing machine has zero electronics and is
       | completely predictable and obvious in operation.
        
         | account-5 wrote:
         | Zero electronics? What are you using? A washboard and a mangle?
        
       | tzs wrote:
       | For those who do not want WiFi on their appliances you still can
       | get highly rated reasonably priced washing machines without WiFi,
       | even from the companies that are putting WiFi in nearly
       | everything.
       | 
       | E.g., I recently bought an LG WM3400CW washing machine for $650.
       | On Consumer Reports it is tied for 3rd on the front loader
       | ratings list. The LG 3900 and 4000 are tied for #1 with overall
       | scores of 87, then the 3400, 8900, and 3600 tied for #3 with
       | overall scores of 85.
       | 
       | Nearly every LG has WiFi nowadays, but not the 3400. Consumer
       | Reports says it does but I think they probably got confused
       | because it has LG's "Smart Diagnosis" which lets you get
       | diagnostic information via LG's mobile app.
       | 
       | On models with WiFi Smart Diagnosis does indeed use WiFi.
       | 
       | On models without WiFi it uses sound. The washing machine plays
       | sounds that sound similar to the sounds that acoustic modems made
       | back in the pre-broadband internet days. Their mobile app listens
       | to those and extracts the diagnostics data.
        
         | notpachet wrote:
         | > On models without WiFi it uses sound. The washing machine
         | plays sounds that sound similar to the sounds that acoustic
         | modems made back in the pre-broadband internet days. Their
         | mobile app listens to those and extracts the diagnostics data.
         | 
         | That's actually pretty cool! I think we should use this for
         | more stuff to help usher in the R2-D2 future.
        
           | f1refly wrote:
           | There was a company called chirp who offered an sdk for this,
           | they also had fun proof of concept apps where you could share
           | arbitrary data to people around you via sound. They
           | eventually got bought by sonos and their offerings
           | vanished...
        
         | lukasb wrote:
         | can't you just plug it in and never configure the wifi?
        
       | chillingeffect wrote:
       | Title clickbait. Please remove article.
        
       | simonblack wrote:
       | It's the Russians.
       | 
       | They've run out of their own washing-machine chips to re-use in
       | their missiles, so they've found a way to hack into washing-
       | machines all over the world and use those millions of chips to
       | guide their missiles instead.
        
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