[HN Gopher] ESP32-C61: Delivering Affordable Wi-Fi 6 Connectivity
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ESP32-C61: Delivering Affordable Wi-Fi 6 Connectivity
Author : adolph
Score : 89 points
Date : 2024-01-12 15:21 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.espressif.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.espressif.com)
| jauntywundrkind wrote:
| Unclear to me how this is different from an ESP32-C6?
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26758050
| https://www.espressif.com/en/news/ESP32_C6
| IshKebab wrote:
| Looks like it's an performance/cost upgrade:
|
| > boasting optimized peripherals, improved connectivity, as
| well as expanded memory options.
|
| You're right it does sound almost identical though.
| adolph wrote:
| I think it is more like a C3 with Wifi6 than a C6. It has the
| same clocked RISCV processor and lacks the C6 low power
| processor and Zigbee baseband/mac. It has more peripherals than
| C3 but fewer than C6. It has an interestingly named "Power
| Glitch Detector" unlike the C6's and C3's "Brownout Detector."
|
| https://www.espressif.com/sites/default/files/documentation/...
|
| https://www.espressif.com/sites/default/files/documentation/...
| osrec wrote:
| Out of interest, has anyone successfully used an ESP32 on a
| commercial project, or are these intended primarily for
| hobbyists?
|
| Also, what would be considered the go-to chip for commercial
| applications?
| codexfons wrote:
| This is a niche, but commercial product using ESP32:
| https://lectronz.com/products/pow-u-han-port-reader-for-m-bu...
|
| I use it and it's crazy how much it can do with close to no
| power.
| magicalhippo wrote:
| My "smart" water heater[1] has an ESP32 in it.
|
| [1]:
| https://www.hoiax.no/produkter/varmtvannsberedere/smartbered...
| bmicraft wrote:
| My dryer too
| epcoa wrote:
| > are these intended primarily for hobbyists?
|
| They're not really intended at all for hobbyists. The espressif
| products are in countless IoT devices.
|
| https://www.espressif.com/
|
| This is not marketing aimed at hobbyists.
|
| Further I think most of the people using ESPHome and the like
| are reflashing commercial products.
|
| > the go-to chip for commercial applications?
|
| For a pacemaker, a Mars rover or a video game console? What
| exactly do you think unifies "commercial application" that
| would allow narrowing down in such a way.
|
| If you're talking about low cost IoT, there are a handful of
| vendors including Beken, Realtek, SiLabs, ST, TI, nRF. For this
| super low cost WiFi/BLE consumer niche espressif is not the
| only player but they are dominant along with nRF and Beken.
| zwieback wrote:
| One concern is supply chain and working with a Chinese
| company. If you build something that has to guarantee a 10 or
| 20 year supply some companies might balk at the ESP32. I
| think Espressif has jumped over into the "reputable" pool but
| it could still be a concern.
| moffkalast wrote:
| On the other hand when someone like TI prices their parts
| at like 30x the cost (e.g. ESP32-WROOM $3, TI CC3235SF $73)
| you can probably afford to build up a 10 year supply,
| especially with volume discounts.
| zwieback wrote:
| I don't know about this particular comparison but yes,
| lifetime-buys can be a good strategy.
| tredre3 wrote:
| Espressif is usually very good with both pricing and
| availability if you wish to buy in bulk.
|
| I bought 1000 ESP32-S2 chips (not modules) for a project,
| it cost me a grand total of 1200 bucks as a nobody.
| During the height of the shortage from most western
| manufacturers too!
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| > If you build something that has to guarantee a 10 or 20
| year supply
|
| Consumer products routinely drop support after 3/5 years,
| Android phones being exhibit A, Sonos speakers are exhibit
| B, and Google in general being in the corner of shame.
|
| While I applaud any efforts at product longevity, I am not
| getting the impression that it's a first-priority concern
| at present.
| adolph wrote:
| Products based on the Makerbase spindle/laser engraver, like
| all the inexpensive 3018 CNCs, all use an older ESP32.
|
| https://github.com/makerbase-mks/MKS-DLC32
|
| Many/all of the Sonoff smart home things use various ESP chips:
|
| https://www.cnx-software.com/2022/06/17/sonoff-pow-elite-esp...
| zwieback wrote:
| We started an ESP32-based design but for internal R&D purposes,
| within our inkjet manufacturing division. In that sense it's
| not commercial but uses professional toolsets and contract
| manufacturing etc., assurance of supply and supply chains.
|
| In the past we mainly used STM32 both because it's a great chip
| and because we have a tight relationship with ST. However, some
| of the younger employees we recently brought on are big fans of
| the ESP32 and we thought "why not give the youngsters a
| chance".
|
| It's looking really promising, the ESP32 nicely fills the niche
| between low-level Arduino-like micros and Linux-based larger
| boards like the Pi.
| coupdejarnac wrote:
| I always get a chuckle when people asked if these are used in
| commercial projects.
|
| The answer is yes, they are in millions of devices.
| bmicraft wrote:
| Not just millions, apparently they some a billion chips
| (according to their website)
| stockhorn wrote:
| We're building an iot product based on the esp32c6. The rust
| support is fantastic, making it a good choice to write stable
| firmware for it.
| wildzzz wrote:
| My dad has a little gadget for his big green egg that monitors
| and adjusts the temperature by controlling a small fan at the
| air intake. You can check the temperature over WiFi either
| through their app or on a very basic webpage the device serves.
| I peeked inside once and it's definitely a basic ESP8266 module
| mounted to a board. It's the perfect module for this kind of
| application. An ESP32 would be a little bit of overkill for
| this kind of application unless you wanted to add a display or
| some other extra processing load to the hardware. A module from
| Nordic would also be appropriate.
| lozaning wrote:
| Traegerdoesn't even bother changing the OUI on the espressif
| module they put in their wifi connected smokers.
| bierjunge wrote:
| Yes, I've used it in a commercial product with 10000+
| deployments. It was the only chip with BLE and WiFi, so there
| was no other option at the time. If the requirements were
| different, I would use something from Nordic Semiconductors [0]
| or some ARMv8 chip.
|
| The hardware itself is fine, but the biggest pain was getting
| stable WiFi and BLE connections simultaneously, because of only
| one antenna/radio. RAM was also a problem, it would be great to
| have at least 512kb. The SDK from Espressif is sometimes a
| little bit weird, but usable and bugs are fixed quickly. The
| build system is ok, nothing special.
|
| [0] https://www.nordicsemi.com/
| mardifoufs wrote:
| I think the more recent esp32s3 have 512kb of ram, with
| support for 32mb of external ram on the board! Makes it easy
| easier to work with
| tredre3 wrote:
| The original ESP32 also has 512KB of RAM but some is
| reserved for instruction and flash cache. So on both the OG
| and the S3 you end up with about 350KB usable. Wifi is
| manageable but bluetooth will use most of it.
|
| That said both the original ESP32 and the S3 support
| external PSRAM (4MB* for the og, 32MB for the S3).
|
| You can buy modules with such RAM already (which you would
| likely do for most deployment), but if you really need a
| single chip solution they also sell the ESP32 chips with
| that "external" RAM embedded in it (albeit in smaller qty,
| like 2MB).
|
| * The OG actually supports 8MB but only the first 4MB is
| directly addressable, you have to handle bankswitching
| yourself to access more.
| mardifoufs wrote:
| Oh I think I got confused with the ESP32s with integrated
| "external" ram. And yeah, I think I was comparing them to
| the esp8xxx, which obviously have less ram. Still, the
| esp32 hasn't changed that much since the first version
| then I guess. I mean except for all the peripherals!
| brk wrote:
| Not yet (in development), but there are literally 10's of
| millions of these powering common commercialized devices at
| this point.
|
| I have several controllable LED light bulbs that are all ESP-
| based, bought on Amazon. Lot's of sensors, and general business
| and consumer oriented stuff using ESP8266 and ESP32 chips.
| r3dey3 wrote:
| Yoto Mini (https://us.yotoplay.com/yoto-mini) is based around
| an esp32
| 0x000xca0xfe wrote:
| AFAIK Shelly is the biggest customer of ESP32 chips. They sell
| cheap but relatively reliable smart home WiFi devices with a
| local web server that are really popular.
| slau wrote:
| I've designed a few boards with ESP32s on them. Sometimes as a
| secondary system to provide wifi/ble, sometimes as the main
| microcontroller. One example was a commercial display using
| these P4 panels to display an 8-bit themed animation, and
| another one where a bunch of old small green CRTs were wired
| together to display the same "command prompt"-style text
| displaying the opening hours and other information.
|
| STM32 would be the other big family of microcontrollers. And if
| you can get your hands on them, and need the vastly more
| powerful capabilities, the i.MX series can be interesting.
| odiroot wrote:
| The even lower powered ESP8266 is used in countless WiFi smart
| plugs and bulbs.
| stavros wrote:
| Sonoff devices use the ESP8266 extensively.
| leptons wrote:
| I'm not sure why this keeps coming up. Why _wouldn 't_ ESP32 be
| used in commercial products??
|
| >Also, what would be considered the go-to chip for commercial
| applications?
|
| ESP32, if it fits the product needs.
|
| There are as many types of microcontrollers as there are needs
| for specific functionality. ESP32 fits practically any
| application that needs a microcontroller and wifi or bluetooth.
| That's the description of quite a lot of IoT products.
| paradox460 wrote:
| Don't sonoff products use esp32
| magicalhippo wrote:
| > or are these intended primarily for hobbyists?
|
| Cheap ICs and hobbyists-only do not go together. Cheap
| hobbyists ICs are almost invariably cheap because there's
| substantial commercial volume, and someone figured they could
| work for hobbyists as well.
| chpatrick wrote:
| There are thousands of commercial products on AliExpress based
| on ESP32.
| londons_explore wrote:
| Note how this might be "Wifi 6", but it's still 2.4Ghz only and
| as far as I can see still single antenna (making most mimo
| functionality useless). Target Wake Time looks like the only
| feature that might be useful (reduces battery consumption
| substantially), but few applications can make use of that yet
| because your product still needs to work if the user has an old
| router which doesn't support it.
|
| Other ESP32's in the range don't get more than about 20Mbps
| throughput under ideal conditions, so it probably isn't exactly a
| beast in the wifi performance department.
|
| In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't the same silicon
| with an upgraded firmware to enable this new functionality.
| bmicraft wrote:
| Shouldn't the fact that it's WiFi 6 mean it uses much less air
| time? I thought WiFi 6 was designed for this scenario with many
| clients. 2.4GHz is a bonus for low bandwidth iot devices where
| range trumps throughout.
| lxgr wrote:
| As long as there isn't any other stuff on 2.4 GHz, it can
| indeed be beneficial.
|
| But if there are any legacy 802.11 (especially pre-802.11n)
| or non-802.11 transmitters nearby, it can be catastrophic for
| throughput, both because you need protective measures when
| transmitting (so that older 802.11 versions can reliably
| detect your transmissions as occupying the carrier) and
| because some of them just don't cooperate well with 802.11 at
| all (e.g. Bluetooth, which will just happily transmit over
| 802.11 without any regard for CSMA/CA fairness at all).
| DiabloD3 wrote:
| Yes, 802.11ax added all the technology required to allow
| subchannel slicing in both the time and frequency domains.
|
| Lets say you had a 5ghz 8x8 160mhz AP (maximum allowable by
| spec): if all you had were 1x1 20mhz clients, you could
| theoretically have 64 different clients concurrently
| communicating with the AP without any real problems.
|
| 2.4ghz does not have 160mhz channels, but allows up to 40mhz.
| Ignoring the fact that 2.4ghz is incredibly congested, and
| you will never achieve peak performance, you can still
| achieve a theoretical maximum (again, with 1x1 20mhz clients)
| of 16 concurrent clients.
|
| That said, I'm more interested in 802.11be: MIMO across
| bands. Instead of hard disabling 2.4ghz (which I 100%
| recommend all people do: this cures all Wifi ills; and if you
| have a building that eats 5ghz, either move or spam APs), the
| AP will dynamically use 2.4ghz as a possible MIMO band.
|
| Theoretical maximum configuration of 802.11be is 40+160+320
| (one 40mhz 2.4ghz channel, one 160mhz 5ghz channel, 1 320mhz
| 6ghz channel), and 802.11be devices will simultaneously
| communicate across all of them; maximum MIMO configuration
| has also been increased to 16.
|
| In other words, the future is an AP that looks like a
| hedgehog, and has 10gbit port.
| franga2000 wrote:
| > if you have a building that eats 5ghz, either move or
| spam APs
|
| The insanity of moving just to get better wifi reception
| aside, do you mean move to North America where houses are
| built out of cardboard and sticks? Most other countries
| build walls out of solid materials and 5 GHz isn't getting
| through more than maybe one of those.
|
| As for spamming APs, I really wish it were that simple.
| Apple devices cling to their AP until speeds drop to the
| dialup days and other platforms aren't much better. How did
| we figure out GSM roaming in the 90s but WiFi roaming is
| still a disaster 30 years later?
| timschmidt wrote:
| If you've set up many APs already, and find client
| devices sticking to them too strongly, this is a sign to
| turn down transmit power on the AP in question. Most ship
| set to "Max" which is terrible for SNR and spatial
| separation. Turning down transmit power will cause the
| client to switch sooner, non-intuitively providing more
| bandwidth due to better utilization of spatial
| separation.
| averysmallbird wrote:
| The ESP32-C5 is supposed to have 5Ghz.
| https://www.espressif.com/en/news/ESP32-C5
| Fb24k wrote:
| I don't know what happened to the C5 - still vaporware 18
| months after announcement.
| londons_explore wrote:
| The lack of 5Ghz in all their products is... surprising...
|
| There are plenty of home users with 5Ghz _only_ networks,
| which in turn means anyone designing an IoT device will get
| user complaints and returns from all these users.
| notatoad wrote:
| >There are plenty of home users with 5Ghz only networks
|
| really? is this a configuration that some ISPs are
| shipping in their routers, or how is this happening? i've
| never heard of anybody with a 5GHz only home network.
| tredre3 wrote:
| It's certainly somewhat common for more tech savvy folks
| to go out of their way to ensure their devices use 5Ghz
| when compatible.
|
| But ISPs? Router manufaturers? No way in hell, why would
| they self-impose additional support burden by preventing
| the customer from connecting their 4-5yo old low-end
| laptop or their shiny new smart bulbs or their brand new
| Amazon Kindle?
| stefan_ wrote:
| That's an odd configuration, because having a 2.4 GHz
| network that all the shitty IoT devices can be on is one
| of the best remaining uses of that band.
| kimixa wrote:
| 2.4 is still the best choice for range and penetration
| (through walls etc.) if you don't _need_ the speed of
| 5ghz. I 'm honestly surprised if they're shipping 5ghz-
| only consumer access points.
| declaredapple wrote:
| > The lack of 5Ghz in all their products is...
| surprising...
|
| Is it? Are there any competitors in the class have 5ghz
| support? Most of the radio MCUs I've seen are all 2.4ghz
| which includes thread/zigbee/wifi/etc.
|
| Every IOT device I've ever seen is 2.4ghz
| kbumsik wrote:
| I suppose it would drain far much more battery if it supports
| 5Ghz, multiple antenna, and wider bandwidth.
| KeplerBoy wrote:
| So be it. That would still be fine for some applications.
| lxgr wrote:
| Sure, but apparently not for the ones targeted by this
| chipset.
| londons_explore wrote:
| Indeed - the target of this device is lowish cost IoT.
|
| Things like $20 "wifi doorbell"'s.
|
| The esp8266 range is for ultra low cost wifi - things
| like $5 "wifi bulb"'s
| KeplerBoy wrote:
| There's also room for mains powered ultra low cost wifi
| appliances. Think about fans or air humidifiers.
| vetinari wrote:
| In this class of devices, I would be interested in 1024 QAM and
| OFDMA support, not MIMO.
| lxgr wrote:
| > single antenna (making most mimo functionality useless)
|
| Can't the AP still use MU-MIMO even for single-antenna clients?
| That's still a significant improvement every time more than one
| STA is active, especially in the super-busy 2.4 GHz band.
| outworlder wrote:
| Not many access points even bother with Wifi6 @ 2.4GHz. I know
| of only enterprise and a handful of small business access
| points.
|
| If your network does have the capability, it should be able to
| make much better use of airtime, more so if you have lots of
| them in your network.
|
| It's a bummer that it's not 5Ghz. Even at lower data rates it
| would be great.
| 0x457 wrote:
| To be fair, such devices would prefer 2.4Ghz any other Wi-Fi
| frequency cries at a view of a single wall.
| jve wrote:
| Just yesterday was looking at ESP32 custom board used to
| open/close gates which has super weak signal even when access
| point is only few meters apart... I found that there is empty
| place where external antenna connects - I think I can solder the
| connector and connect the antenna.
|
| Is there any article out there that would help me do it? As I
| understand there needs to be some resistor that should be
| desoldered or existing link to on-board antenna cut.
| BizarroLand wrote:
| That's about it. Antennas aren't anything but wire or a small
| sheet of metal, all you need is something to increase the
| amount of metal exposed to the signal.
|
| This is a quick & dirty diy "solder on some more metal & an
| antenna" tutorial:
|
| https://community.home-assistant.io/t/how-to-add-an-external...
|
| Solder mask might have been a better cover than the one shown,
| but the hot glue would do in a pinch.
|
| Also, as far as resistor goes, there is no spec for the
| resistor. It's a jumper, that's all.
| jve wrote:
| Excellent article! This is what I was hoping to find. Luckily
| I have some solder mask and UV light laying around :)
|
| Thank you.
| Havoc wrote:
| While I'm glad there progressing I suspect I'll continue to buy
| 2.4ghz wifi 5 ones. I park all my IOT stuff on that to keep 5 and
| 6 ghz clean for key device.
| slau wrote:
| This is 2.4
| 0x000xca0xfe wrote:
| I wonder what RISC-V core they are using, a custom design?
| ipython wrote:
| I will start by saying I am not an embedded engineer. Given that
| I am but a consumer of about a dozen different IoT devices, I
| would love it if embedded wifi chipsets didn't suck so much. I
| don't care if it's WiFi 4, just make them not suck.
|
| Each manufacturer seems to have their own little quirks you need
| to work around: one device only works well on 2.4 channel 1,
| another will aggressively roam to other access points (even
| though it and the ap are stationary, and the closest ap has <
| -60dbm signal). Even the most relatively well behaved modules
| will disconnect and reconnect constantly (average connection time
| is ~10 minutes to an hour, mind you the device is constantly
| connected to mains power). God forbid you enable any 802.11
| extensions on the radio servicing those devices, then you're
| really in for a world of hurt.
|
| Then when you complain to the manufacturer, you get super helpful
| advice like "factory reset your router" and "open the following
| 28 ports through your nat gateway to our device" (sooooo... and
| if I have two of your devices, what then?). It's a total
| shitshow.
| fusslo wrote:
| As an embedded engineer, I also wish wifi chipsets didn't suck
| so much
|
| Back when I was working on homekit smart products, we would
| test our products against a huge swath of wifi routers,
| including apple's.
|
| There was a handful of conformity tests we'd run, including
| Bonjour, DHCP, arp, etc.
|
| I don't think a single router passed every test, including
| Apple's.
|
| So our wifi stack was pretty good, but we also had to watch out
| for all these corner cases of different vendors and how they
| don't behave to spec.
|
| Its been about 6 years since I was full time in wifi, and I
| hope we've progressed, but I doubt it
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| I'd like to read something about the naming scheme behind the
| ESP32 series, it seems... interesting.
| squarefoot wrote:
| I wonder if the lack of 5GHz band could be to avoid being forced
| to become DFS compliant.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_frequency_selection
| phoenk wrote:
| I would assume it just isn't a requirement in the majority of
| IoT projects, and omitting it saves on cost.
| nevi-me wrote:
| They should have named it C8, the have will be confusing. It also
| doesn't feel like much of an upgrade to the C3.
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