[HN Gopher] A theory of the modern exclamation point!
___________________________________________________________________
A theory of the modern exclamation point!
Author : crescit_eundo
Score : 35 points
Date : 2024-01-10 19:37 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (annehelen.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (annehelen.substack.com)
| zelias wrote:
| Top of the Muffin to you!
| khazhoux wrote:
| Kudos on the deep Lippman reference!
| glial wrote:
| To channel Cormac McCarthy: Exclamation marks are for
| exclamations.
| Swizec wrote:
| As an ESL, my opinions in exclamation points are "shrug". But
| here's something about tone that grinds my gears: Why is clear
| writing considered aggressive?
|
| I often find it nearly impossible to understand coworkers because
| they couch everything in layers of fluff. Seemingly to avoid
| coming across as aggressive.
|
| Especially when giving feedback. Please just tell me what's wrong
| so I can fix it.
| _a_a_a_ wrote:
| Word.
| MengerSponge wrote:
| Skill issue. What you intend as "clear" has an aggressive tone.
|
| It may be related to power differentials: when talking to peers
| or superiors people tend to use more deferential and roundabout
| phrasing. When talking to an underling, communication can be
| much more terse.
| Detrytus wrote:
| > Skill issue. What you intend as "clear" has an aggressive
| tone.
|
| That's one of the things I find weird about English. Just
| saying what you want in a straightforward way is considered
| "rude" or "aggressive", and you have to add tons of those
| bullshit expressions like "please", "would you mind",
| typically at least two or three of them in a single sentence.
| What a waste of time....
| floxy wrote:
| I'd love an example (or two) of a single sentence using two
| or three of these "niceties".
| Detrytus wrote:
| I would love to give you some good examples, but if you
| could wait till tomorrow that would be great.
|
| Sorry for sneaky edit :-)
| floxy wrote:
| So maybe it is just overly flowery language in general?
| How would you like to word that?
|
| - Tomorrow.
|
| - I'll give examples tomorrow.
|
| - I have good examples to give you tomorrow.
|
| ...Do you find the "extra" language is equally required
| in speech and text? I also wonder if there is a certain
| conservation of syllables across languages, maybe related
| to how fast our brains can process speech? And in some
| languages the syllables are needed for comprehension, and
| in other language there are "filler" words?
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Your quote is one already; instead of saying "Give me an
| example or two", you don't even ask, you instead posit a
| problem, a thing you would like, without asking anyone in
| specific. It's indirect communication, and sometimes
| people get upset if their indirect question or their
| positing of a problem isn't responded with a "Here you
| go!".
|
| If you want something, go and find it. If you want
| someone else to provide it for you, ask. Or tell. But
| don't posit a problem and expect someone to fix it for
| you.
| trealira wrote:
| It's interesting for me to have this pointed out. I've
| read posts from English speakers trying to learn Japanese
| complain about Japanese culture being very indirect and
| subtle, but the same complaint can be applied to our own
| culture.
|
| As a teenager, I stayed in Spain for a month living with
| a host couple, and I remember the wife telling me that I
| said "por favor" too much (like asking "could you please
| pass the salt?" at dinner) asked for things too much, and
| generally acted overly polite. For example, it's
| apparently more common in Spain to order food at
| restaurants like "Give me a coffee (please)" and not "I
| would like a coffee, please". All this was in Spanish;
| I'm just translating what we said into English.
| CodexArcanum wrote:
| It's a silly that you list "please" as fluff. That critical
| word changes a demand into a request, which is very
| powerful.
|
| "Hand me that." An order, a directive, as one might issue
| to a servant.
|
| "Hand me that, please?" A question, a request, a favor, as
| you might ask of someone you respect.
| Detrytus wrote:
| But in sentences like: "Could you hand me that, please?"
| The word "please" seems redundant, "could you" already
| does the job of asking nicely. That is, from my
| perspective as someone speaking English as a second
| language.
| tnecniv wrote:
| In that case, it does not materially change the content
| but it does change the tone to indicate you would
| appreciate them responding in the affirmative . Adding a
| "please" to a request also doesn't make it harder to
| understand.
|
| You do have a point, though. Passive voice can be a lot
| more wordy / harder to parse, but people often use it to
| be more polite sounding.
| floxy wrote:
| >"Hand me that." An order, a directive, as one might
| issue to a servant.
|
| Do English speakers generally not use "please" and "thank
| you" with servants?
| happytoexplain wrote:
| Eh, language is complex. Maybe some people read too much
| into the absence of a please, but in English, imperatives
| are in fact intrinsically rude most of the time. If I say,
| "open the window", that's rude in 9 out of 10 contexts, as
| opposed to "could you open the window?"
|
| That said, I have absolutely seen people be excessively
| polite in a way that comes off as non-genuine, but they are
| always ESLs. I assume they just have a hard time seeing the
| line, so they try to play it safe.
| yaky wrote:
| Both my sibling and I experienced the same in the US corporate
| culture. Even non-confrontational phrases have to be wrapped in
| multiple layers of please / perhaps / would you kindly to not
| be considered "rude".
|
| From what I heard, this "corp-politeness" is somewhat of a meme
| in foreign software developer teams and is often mocked.
| kyrofa wrote:
| It seems overly simplistic to boil this down to sexism. You're
| really going to tell me that I'm sexist because I think emailing
| a paying customer with multiple sentences ending in multiple
| exclamation marks comes off as unprofessional? I should be able
| to have an opinion about messaging and tone without involving
| that person's gender.
| lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
| Not trying to comment on sexism but this sticks out to me:
|
| > I think emailing a paying customer with multiple sentences
| ending in multiple exclamation marks comes off as
| unprofessional
|
| Why?
| kyrofa wrote:
| Because we're providing a service. We're not buddies. We're
| not texting our bff. I don't like to see professional emails
| using "lol" either.
| floxy wrote:
| Not the OP, but seems like the typical used-car sales pitch,
| where they yell at you to pay attention. If what they had was
| so great, they wouldn't have to yell. But since these are
| used cars, not materially different from other used cars,
| they try to differentiate themselves by volume instead of
| value.
|
| I think Apple could put out an 15 second ad, with just a
| black background, where in the first second a white Apple
| logo fades in. And then a several seconds later, a date fades
| in below the logo. Maybe a soft ocean sound in the
| background. And people would be eagerly awaiting whatever
| mystery launch is happening. (Or maybe Apple (or someone
| else) already has run an ad like this?)
| MengerSponge wrote:
| Hey! You know what! In 2022 I am using exclamation points at the
| end of every email sentence! I don't care if it looks like I'm
| unhinged! I am! Warmest regards!!!
|
| https://twitter.com/kaitfeldmann/status/1480629739542888451?...
| nelox wrote:
| Being a question, it should read "You know what?" ;)
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| You know WHAT?!?!?!??????
| block_dagger wrote:
| It's the repeated exclamations (!!) that are the true offenders.
| TacticalCoder wrote:
| > It's the repeated exclamations (!!) that are the true
| offenders.
|
| A lawyer I know told me, about 25 years ago (before email was
| really common place everywhere), something I never forgot. I'm
| paraphrasing but it went like this:
|
| _" When a would-be client sends me a letter with some words or
| a sentence written in a size 16 font in bold red characters and
| ends the sentence with three exclamation marks, I refuse that
| person as a client. They're impossible to deal with. They're
| people convinced they're always right and you cannot make
| reasoned arguments to these people."_.
| yonisto wrote:
| Top of the muffin to you!!!
| justsomehnguy wrote:
| > If you think someone's written communication style is off, or
| wrong, or bitchy: see if it's possible to clarify their intention
| without asking them to change their tone.
|
| That works both ways, _girl_.
| trealira wrote:
| I don't understand what you're implying, and I'm a man. You're
| trying to be rude to demonstrate something, but I don't know
| what. What is it?
| floxy wrote:
| >There are very few situations in which I feel the need to be
| exclamation-free, and almost all of them involve a man who won't
| take no for an answer.
|
| Interesting. I would have thought the opposite. Save the
| exclamation for emphasis, especially for something like "No!".
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2024-01-10 23:01 UTC)