[HN Gopher] AMD 8000G APUs launch Jan 31, $329 8700G competes wi...
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AMD 8000G APUs launch Jan 31, $329 8700G competes with desktop
GTX1650 in gaming
Author : nateb2022
Score : 54 points
Date : 2024-01-08 20:16 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (videocardz.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (videocardz.com)
| confident_inept wrote:
| I had an AMD APU setup that I used for a while as a light gaming
| rig. I'm impressed to see these chips continue to grow in
| capability and be offered at reasonable prices.
|
| I'm curious how the FOSS video driver for these fares on Linux.
| The newest discrete cards have random full system lockups and
| driver crashes that make them unusable for anything that stresses
| the GPU.
| nateb2022 wrote:
| I currently have a 3 year old 5800H APU from 2021, which
| replaced a 2400G (2018) I had before it. I've generally had no
| issues at all with the integrated graphics.
| sylware wrote:
| The AMD APU you can find in the steam deck running valve FOSS
| 3D drivers had lockups?
| Aleklart wrote:
| Green screen of death indeed. Had them on 4800h laptop
| regularly. Laptop worked fine on Windows. AMD already dropped
| support for vega igpu so I guess these will never work in
| Linux. May be RDNA drivers is better because Valve using them
| in Steam Deck. Still AMD can break it at any release as they
| did many times.
| Scramblejams wrote:
| Can you point me to resources regarding these lockups? I
| regularly game on Linux using the FOSS amdgpu driver (kernel
| 6.5) with a 7900 XTX, which is relatively recent (i.e. RDNA3),
| and I haven't seen any yet.
| saltcured wrote:
| I have had a Ryzen 7 Pro 3700U based Thinkpad T495 since 2019,
| running Fedora.
|
| I can't remember many full system lockups, but there may have
| been a few. I ran Steam games on it for a year or two before
| switching those to a different system. But I ran a number of
| Linux native or Proton-based games and it was the best
| performing system I had for a while.
|
| What I do recall is that OpenCL barely worked and could get
| into strange "stuck" states only resolved by rebooting. I could
| still use the windowing system for a bit, but some kernel calls
| seemed to begin hanging. It was very disappointing, as I knew
| this machine had a lot of FLOPS I could have put to use if the
| OpenCL drivers worked.
|
| One quirk I never resolved in Linux is that the mouse pointer
| would seem to jump around sometimes while typing. I haven't
| seen this on any other Thinkpad and it seemed to persist across
| multiple different Fedora installations. No adjustments to the
| "mouse" controls menu seemed to make a difference.
|
| I recently started using a Ryzen 7 Pro 7840U based Thinkpad
| P14s. It doesn't seem to have either of these two issues, but I
| haven't used it for very long. I find it to be an impressive
| machine so far.
| seanw444 wrote:
| I have a dual-GPU setup, with a 6900 XT passed through to a
| Windows VM for games. So I guess I can't say anything about new
| cards having issues. But the amdgpu drivers are fantastic on
| the RX 570 that Linux _does_ touch.
| mjevans wrote:
| I'm still a little sad they aren't at least allowing 90W parts.
| More power breathing room and maybe another 4-8 GPU CUs would
| make for a compelling entry tier gaming rig.
| treprinum wrote:
| What kind of LLM inference performance can we expect if we pair
| it up with 192GB of DDR5?
| Aleklart wrote:
| abysmal, as it ~100 times slower than A100
| rbanffy wrote:
| Still, it's possible to test/validate on your desktop and
| then move to the big machines.
| rbanffy wrote:
| This was, until a short while back, Apple's exclusive terrain.
| cced wrote:
| Can you expand on this? What is the current co tender for LLM
| inference that is ~on par with Apples offerings?
| smoldesu wrote:
| It entirely depends on workload. This blog has a diligent
| mixed-model comparison of the M3 laptops lined up against
| the Titan RTX (2019) and Tesla V100 (2017):
| https://www.mrdbourke.com/apple-m3-machine-learning-test/
| weebull wrote:
| LLM? Probably ok. Image diffusion? Not so hot, but better than
| CPU.
| stevenhuang wrote:
| You got that switched around. Text generation is harder than
| image generation.
| lostmsu wrote:
| It is also memory bandwidth bound for non-batched cases.
| aurareturn wrote:
| Very poorly as the GPU is weak and bandwidth is low.
| sylware wrote:
| 300euros for the 8700g, perfect for a mini-PC to play dota2 on my
| custom linux distro.
|
| I would push the envelop for a dirt cheap motherboard, without
| network or audio chips, only many USB-C high-speed ports (and
| dongles for those). I guess the power supply or battery pack will
| be the most expensive component after the APU and before the RAM.
|
| We are talking <500 euros serious gaming mini-PC.
| Aaronstotle wrote:
| I'm more interested in the custom linux distro part, was it
| hard to setup?
|
| I used to dabble a lot with Linux and its how I got my career
| in tech actually.
|
| Closest I got to something like that was a gentoo distro,
| although I think I messed something up because I wasn't able to
| boot into it after all that setup.
| sylware wrote:
| I have 2 decades of linux system dev programming.
|
| Most of open source SDKs are abominations and code is being
| literaly brain fucked by ultra-complex syntax languages like
| c++, rust and similar. I am disgusted, to a point for me,
| open source software is now hardly less worse than msft or
| apple trash.
|
| I have open source software only because I can still
| customize it enough to let me bear with it and it is free as
| in free beer.
|
| That to say, the amount of insane and broken knowledge you
| need to properly maintain a fully custom linux distro (very
| custom) is obscene.
|
| I am trying to find ways out of some of the critical issues
| for myself, basically trying to move a mountain with a spoon.
| toast0 wrote:
| Audio and ethernet are probably cheaper onboard than with
| whatever you need to enable usb-c and an external dongle.
|
| The real way to get a cheaper board is going chipsetless;
| something knoll3 like this [1], but without the fancy bits.
| Single 1g ethernet, no ipmi, no oculink, and the price probably
| comes way down. Although, I do see there's a MSI PRO A620M-E
| Micro ATX out there for $75, so maybe we can have a chipset
| after all.
|
| [1]
| https://www.asrockrack.com/general/productdetail.asp?Model=A...
| sylware wrote:
| We don't need a chipset at all: we have the APU USB and NVMe
| disk. RAM slots, PCIE slots, M.2 slots and a bunch of usb-c
| connectors, power connectors, an UEFI bios, and we are good
| to go.
|
| But for the normal users, yeah, an audio chip and a Gbits
| network chip would be appropriate (probably routed directly
| to some APU PCIE pins).
| pedrocr wrote:
| These parts could also be interesting for NAS and other home
| server setups if the monolithic die leads to better idle power
| usage and they haven't lost ECC support. Unfortunately getting
| verified ECC support in AM5 seems to be quite difficult. In AM4
| it was easy but ECC on APUs was only enabled on the PRO parts
| which were only sold to OEMs.
| zamadatix wrote:
| It's worth noting AMD already included minimal GPUs in the
| desktop line for the Zen 4 generation, including video
| encode/decode. These, with the exception of the 8300G model,
| simply have larger GPUs but smaller cache and this might not be
| a good trade off for a NAS. The exception is the 8300G which is
| a good budget option having only 4 cores and no parallel in the
| desktop line.
| pedrocr wrote:
| AM5 has iGPU in all parts which makes it easier to use as
| server indeed. But normal AM5 parts are chiplet designs so
| they idle at relatively high power. These are monolithic dies
| from the laptop line so they have that going for them.
| According to the AMD website ECC support is enabled in these
| too:
|
| https://www.amd.com/en/product/14066
|
| It seems AM5 motherboards are back to having ECC confirmed in
| the specs after AMD AGESA updates:
|
| https://www.asrock.com/MB/AMD/B650M%20Pro%20RS/index.asp#Spe.
| ..
|
| So pending some benchmarks 8700G+B650+ECC sounds like a good
| home server that should idle at low power.
| zamadatix wrote:
| Oh wow I thought they abandoned the monolithic APUs in
| newer generations as well. I guess that does help then.
| whitepoplar wrote:
| What's the easiest way to cheaply get ECC on AM5 working w/
| separate GPUs nowadays? I currently have an ASRock B450 AM4
| motherboard + ECC memory + Ryzen 5 3600 and while I _think_ ECC
| works, I 'm not certain.
|
| I with there were a "cheap ECC on <AMD newest socket>" guide
| where the components and settings were validated by a reputable
| party.
| MrFoof wrote:
| As someone with four Ryzen 7 PRO 5750GEs, I'll say I'm looking
| forward to whenever the Ryzen 7 PRO 8750GEs exist. :)
|
| In raw CPU performance, I found the 5750GE was 90-92% of the
| CPU performance of a 5700X, but capped out at a total package
| power of just 39W. 5750GEs made for fantastic home server CPUs,
| so here's hoping there'll be an 8750GE later this year _(plus
| some ASRock Rack mATX motherboards with ECC support and BMCs)_.
|
| I agree the OEM only was a pain. I had to get my 5750GEs
| through mostly disassemblers/recyclers, though some boutique
| shops like QuietPC buy a half tray of them at a time to sell
| directly to end users, so keep on the lookout!
| pedrocr wrote:
| Seems like there's no need to wait for the PRO versions as
| the 8700G has ECC support:
|
| https://www.amd.com/en/product/14066
|
| Power can probably be limited in the BIOS to whatever level
| you prefer.
|
| There's also already AM5 ASRock Rack with ECC support in the
| specs:
|
| https://www.asrockrack.com/general/productdetail.asp?Model=B.
| ..
| MrFoof wrote:
| There are reasons for folks to wait for the PRO.
|
| * First are the EPYC memory protection features. No other
| Ryzen SKU has them. I _actually_ care about these
| protection and isolation features.
|
| * Second are the GE variants. Think similar to Intel's T
| and TE variants. These are super binned for extra low power
| consumption. An 8750GE will be binned to actually be at max
| performance at a 35W TDP. Yes, you could set a G to Eco
| Mode or whatever, but I've done those experiments with
| 5700Gs and 5700Xs, and the performance nor power
| consumption is not quite there compared to the GE versions.
|
| * Last is AMD DASH support. Think Intel vPro IPMI without
| needing a dedicated BMC _(just an onboard NIC that supports
| DASH)_. Non-PRO Ryzen SKUs do not support DASH.
|
| I won't be waiting regardless as my 5750GEs are good for
| many more years still, but the PRO variants genuinely have
| real differentiating features.
| rbanffy wrote:
| What is the performance for number crunching (rather than polygon
| pushing) compared to similar APUs in the same price range?
| imran0 wrote:
| There are no similar APUs in the same price range. Unless you
| consider regular i5 CPUs as APUs, which they technically are.
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| Am I the only one disappointed in AMD for still not releasing a
| proper PC gaming APU and instead they keep trickling down these
| lukewarm parts to us like it's the best thing since slice bread
| when they already have the monster X86 Ryzen-RDNA APU from the
| PS5 and Xbox released 3 years ago, which slap these new PC APUs
| into oblivion at gaming.
|
| So why can't they just strip the proprietary Sony/Microsoft IP
| from the silicone and release a PC version of those APUs?
|
| They're still just bog standard Ryzen-RDNA parts with more
| graphic CUs and higher TDP than what they sell for the PC, and
| the PC motherboards can take higher TDPs of the PS5/Xbox APUs
| anyway. So what gives AMD? Why you playing us like that?
| Sparkyte wrote:
| It's more complicated it isn't that they can't. Desktop memory
| is still behind GPU memory in bandwidth. So making a GPU
| greater than a certain footprint looses efficiency. However you
| could probably achieve low-midrange dGPU performance.
| mirsadm wrote:
| Apple seems to be doing a pretty good job, AMD can figure it
| out.
| kevingadd wrote:
| Apple's SoCs aren't running against consumer DDR5 slapped
| into slots on a motherboard
| smileybarry wrote:
| That's the point, though. Apple are doing a pretty good job
| because they're using unified memory on the same chip. When
| AMD gets the same opportunity -- e.g.: PS4/PS5 and XBO/XSX
| APUs, Steam Deck APU, Z1 Extreme, etc. -- they get good
| results because they control the memory layout, capacity,
| and speeds. (And end up deploying VRAM as chip RAM,
| essentially)
| aurareturn wrote:
| What exactly is "good results"?
| smileybarry wrote:
| The fact that the PS5 and Xbox Series X have a great GPU,
| despite being an APU, merely because they can package the
| RAM along with the chip and not rely on slot-in DDR5?
| Look up the benchmarks and compare to dGPUs.
| aurareturn wrote:
| Dedicated desktop GPUs are significantly more powerful
| than PS5 and XSX chips - even GPUs released in the same
| year.
|
| Nvidia's Ampere series released in 2020.
|
| You might not see the huge difference in performance
| because games are optimized around consoles. But in terms
| of raw specs/tflops, dedicated GPUs are much more
| powerful.
|
| That said, PS5 and XSX take the cake in cost/perf. But
| that's only because they are subsidized.
| aurareturn wrote:
| Because PS5/XSX SoCs are way too power hungry for laptops and
| too impractical for desktops. They're designed to be cheap to
| produce for a console which means they use fewer transistors
| and run in high clock speed leading to higher power and cooling
| requirements than laptops can handle. Discrete Nvidia GPUs
| blows it out of the water on desktop. So do standalone desktop
| CPUs.
|
| Furthermore, they use unified GDDR RAM which has high bandwidth
| but also high latency. The CPU would not be competitive. This
| is unlike Apple Silicon which takes the more expensive route by
| using LPDDR5 with many channels.
|
| I think what you want is an efficient SoC with a very large
| GPU. Basically an M3 Max. But Apple is way ahead of AMD at
| making mobile SoCs. It would also cost $3000+ starting - which
| brings us back to the territorial of Nvidia GPUs having more
| value if you're a gamer.
|
| With that said, I think chip makers were woken up by Apple or
| caught with their pants down. I do think we will see bigger
| GPUs in SoCs on laptops and desktops. Nvidia is rumored to be
| making an Apple Silicon Competitor. Qualcomm is with their
| Nuvia based chips. AMD and Intel are putting bigger and bigger
| GPUs into their SoCs.
| Stevvo wrote:
| >So why can't they just strip the proprietary Sony/Microsoft IP
| from the silicone and release a PC version of those APUs?
|
| They could, but it would run like shit. DDR4 is way too low
| bandwidth for video memory. Zen2 was a pretty slow architecture
| to begin with; the ancient 14nm Intel CPUs are faster.
| daveguy wrote:
| For those keeping score: consoles are getting behind AMD's
| current tech -- a generation behind on the memory (DDR4 vs
| 5), _10 nm behind_ on the CPU fab (14nm vs 4nm), and two
| generations behind on the zen architecture (Zen 2 vs Zen 4).
| I guess that means we are due for a new console generation in
| the next year or two? Which will probably be based on this
| faster, better 8000G series (or the next one).
| throwawaytruck wrote:
| I believe they never release good APUs because they would cut
| into the market for video cards... So the best APU has to be
| inferior to a mediocre GPU combo.
| ranger207 wrote:
| I don't know that there's much of a market for a desktop APU.
| People who don't care about graphics can use the CPUs with
| built-in graphics; most people who do care about graphics are
| likely going to prefer a dedicated card, possibly from Nvidia
| anyway. There just aren't a lot of people looking for a non-
| upgradable desktop
| sosodev wrote:
| The 8700G should be roughly as powerful as an Xbox Series S.
| These modern APUs have come a long way. I suspect they don't
| bother making them much more powerful because the
| cost/performance ratio can't compete with the standard CPU+GPU
| combos.
| jauntywundrkind wrote:
| These are pretty beastly APUs, imo.
|
| To go further, iGPUs need much more ram throughout than they
| have now.
|
| I'd love love love to see an m1 style on-package ram, but I
| don't think it's likely. What is happening though - if things
| go ok - is Strix Halo.
|
| This announcement today is a desktop _Hawk Point_ (same specs
| but higher power than existing mobile Hawk Point: 8c Z4, 16MB
| L3, 12 CU 780m GPU). Next APU due end of year or early next
| year is _Strix Point_ , on Zen5+??. The real excitement though:
| there's supposed to be a "big" Strix Point called _Strix Halo_
| coming out a bit after that is alleged to boast a double wide
| 256b DDR5 memory interface. That doubled-up memory bandwidth
| should provide the headroom to go from good to great!
| arprocter wrote:
| It'd be interesting to benchmark this against say a 5600 with an
| actual 1650 (cost of both combined's about 300 bucks at current
| prices)
|
| My first build was on an APU - if all you wanted was 'a working
| computer' it was fine, but I soon switched to a normal CPU and
| GPU
| andrewstuart wrote:
| More interesting to benchmark the same CPU with an actual 1650.
| arprocter wrote:
| True - I was just going for 'around the same price'
|
| I went 3400G -> 1600 Super -> 5600X, and performance with the
| latter was much better (other than being 2 gens behind, the
| older APUs had half the cache of the non-G variants)
|
| Depending on the state of iGPU transcoding this'd probably
| make a nice chip for a Plex box
| noelwelsh wrote:
| Most interesting to me is the built-in NPU / "AI Accelerator" /
| Ryzen AI / XDNA. While descriptions of the chip are relatively
| easy to find, I haven't yet found out how the thing is
| programmed. Hetergeneous programming across APU, GPU, and NPU is
| going to be interesting.
|
| Update: https://ryzenai.docs.amd.com/en/latest/
| aurareturn wrote:
| It's basically an NPU, which has been shipping on phones for 5
| years already.
| Aleklart wrote:
| Nothing to praise AMD about: 1. Same greedy strategy to sell 8
| cores with top igpu while put heavily cut down igpu to 4 and 6
| cores. Nobody need 8 cores for this little gpu performance. In
| fact you have to disable half of cores to get better fps and most
| users of RDNA handhelds already did it. Steam deck have 4 cores
| for the same reason. 2. 780M is rebranded 680M released 2 years
| ago with same performance. Before it, AMD had been rebranding
| vega for 3 years. 3. Intel igpu is already on pair in laptops. 15
| gen will have same igpu performance and same cuts as AMD while
| having cheaper 2 and 4 cores for casual players. 4. AMD drivers
| still awful and most gamers switch to Nvidia just because of it
| and never look back. 5. "Insane gaming performance " is equal to
| performance of 8 years old 1060 that can be bought for 30 euros.
| New parts like 6500, A380 or 1650 GDDR6 are available for 100-150
| euro. Gaming PC for kids with performance of 300+ euro 8700g can
| be built for 100 euro (chinese LGA 2011-3 Xeon + RX 570 refab).
| 6. Non gamers have no reason to buy APU at all. It will stay as
| niche of SFF and corporate boxes.
| Yizahi wrote:
| Press F to doubt(c)
|
| It says that highest SKU has Radeon 780M (12 CU) inside. That's
| exactly the same GPU as in 7940HS/7840HS and it scores slightly
| below 1060-3Gb cards in 3dmark.
|
| The only difference between 7840HG and newer APUs is addition of
| the (useless?) NPU unit which functions are unclear to me. Train
| neural networks on a 35W APU?
|
| I've entertained an idea of buying 7840HG SBC as a mini travel PC
| for 1080P. Still thinking :)
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