[HN Gopher] Copilot key will eventually be required in new PC ke...
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Copilot key will eventually be required in new PC keyboards
Author : kens
Score : 97 points
Date : 2024-01-05 17:31 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (arstechnica.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (arstechnica.com)
| melagonster wrote:
| guess I miss a lot of news of Copilot...when is it becoming a
| personal assistant?
|
| what happens when I click Copilot button but I don't have money
| in Microsoft account?
| stonogo wrote:
| It falls back to launching Windows Search:
| https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2024/01/04/intro...
| kotaKat wrote:
| Another copy of Candy Crush gets automatically installed.
| throw1234651234 wrote:
| And they said the antichrist isn't real.
| yoyohello13 wrote:
| 1 social demerit.
| jjordan wrote:
| The way Microsoft is pushing AI literally everywhere now feels
| reminiscent of circa 2001 when literally everything was branded
| '.NET'. Eventually they scaled it back, but it was complete
| overkill and diluted what the brand was supposed to represent.
| tenebrisalietum wrote:
| What is Microsoft suppsed to represent? I'm not sure their
| brand has ever been anything more concrete over its total
| existence other than BASIC/MS-DOS in the beginning, a few long
| running products (Windows, Office, Xbox, Azure) and that it is
| involved with user-facing technology.
| jen20 wrote:
| The brand in question there was ".NET" not "Microsoft".
| bbor wrote:
| Microsoft represents a solid, stable, enterprise-friendly,
| conservative, but still somewhat "innovative" (whatever that
| means) company. Or at least that's their brand. Given that a
| huge part of their value is their long term sales
| relationships, I'd say they are an extremely brand-reliant
| company.
| lallysingh wrote:
| You could argue the same for bic (the pen/lighter company).
| Solid, stable, enterprise friendly (100 packs!) and still
| somewhat innovative (new kinds of pens, white out, etc).
| edgyquant wrote:
| There are lots of companies you could say this about
| antisthenes wrote:
| I think at this point MS is really representing the
| enterprise/corporate Office suite as well as being
| exceptionally annoying with their Browser strategy.
|
| But that's just my IMHO.
| blibble wrote:
| > What is Microsoft suppsed to represent?
|
| unreliable software combined with abusive business practices
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| It's the only thing MS^H^H _Bing_ has that offers a prayer of
| beating Google at something. Expect saturation.
| w0m wrote:
| O mean, GCE vs Azure?
| HWR_14 wrote:
| Other than ads, search or mobile OS, I'm not sure where else
| Google is beating MS. I don't mean to diminish those things,
| they are important. But ChromeOS is clearly nowhere near
| displacing Windows (for instance).
| LordDragonfang wrote:
| New outlook keeps getting worse, while gmail keeps getting
| better; virtually no one under the age of 40 buys Office
| for personal use, they all use the google suite, Chrome has
| an absurd market share. Really the only place they're
| winning is in the ChromeOS vs Windows fight.
| hulitu wrote:
| > gmail keeps getting better
|
| Gmail was always a parody of a mail client. Damn, even
| the demo called Lotus Notes was better.
| singpolyma3 wrote:
| ChromeOS? I think that's for old-person devices called
| "laptops"?
|
| These days all people has is a smartphone and it runs
| Android or iOS, no Microsoft in sight.
| avtar wrote:
| > It's the only thing they have that offers a prayer of
| beating Google at something
|
| I'm guessing their office suite offerings (hosted and
| desktop) dwarf anything that Google has.
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| Yeah, I clarified the post to indicate what I actually
| meant (Bing.)
|
| They would really, really like you to use Bing for search
| instead of Google. Until the OpenAI partnership started to
| bear fruit, they had no way to get their foot in that
| particular door. Now that they do, they will never let us
| forget it.
| edgyquant wrote:
| From what I've seen the AI gimmick has resulted in almost
| no new market share for Bing. I downloaded it myself and
| used it a couple of times but the app was buggy on iOS
| and I can just use ChatGPT for the generative features. I
| imagine many others felt the same
| chollida1 wrote:
| > It's the only thing they have that offers a prayer of
| beating Google at something.
|
| Azure's market share would indicate you are wrong about this.
| Zetobal wrote:
| Feels more like Google+ to me... push untested features that no
| one asked for but miss getting the basics right. I mean
| GitHub/Copilot tells me all the time that it will change the
| way I develop and everytime I look at windows they are still
| not able to implement a proper dark mode.
| steve1977 wrote:
| Well they can't even decide on which frontend framework to
| use this year it seems...
| asdff wrote:
| Its not even microsoft its everyone and their grandmother
| pushing AI this AI that crap. Really language model this
| language model that, but we've perverted what AI actually means
| to the public already so that's great too for technological
| literacy purposes.
| Arainach wrote:
| To be fair, customers are part of the hype feedback loop. I
| have seen actual conversations with non-tech workers that
| boil down to "when we ask these people what they want AI to
| do, they say they don't know, but boy do they get excited
| every time we mention adding AI"
| asdff wrote:
| Using AI customer service chatbots really is a hoot. The
| most egregious examples they add an ai autocomplete service
| to your replies. So the thing asks you for your email and
| in the textbox its so very helpfully prefilled
| bob@example.com that you now need to overwrite with your
| actual email. Pretty fun to think of the resources consumed
| delivering this experience too
| UtopiaPunk wrote:
| Are customers really asking for AI soda flavors, tho?
| https://us.coca-cola.com/products/coke-
| creations/y3000-limit...
| majani wrote:
| smacking AI on anything is probably an easy promotion for
| the next couple years
| edgyquant wrote:
| I wonder if they just pasted their recipe into ChatGPT
| and asked "how can I make this taste better?"
| mananaysiempre wrote:
| They did at one point ask for cosmetics with thorium and
| radium[1], so who knows.
|
| [1] http://museumofradium.co.uk/tho-radia/
| therouwboat wrote:
| I saw post in this general purpose forum where this guy
| claimed he asked chatgpt to learn about cnc-milling
| machines and material properties and produce g-code to mill
| a gear.
|
| People were replying "I dont understand, but thats cool!"
| etc.
|
| I checked his code and it did circle with G3 and then it
| did "finishing pass" which was also circle by rotating the
| chuck or A-axle. When I asked him about it, he just said
| "Oh, I didn't look at the code"
| ryandrake wrote:
| The new "blockchain". We don't know what problems we want
| to solve, but we sure know that we need to solve them with
| AI!
| nxobject wrote:
| Apple, to their credit, hasn't announcing some generative-AI
| powered project. Yet. I'd like to think they have an Amish-
| like attitude to tech fads... hence why they never had a
| foldable come to market.
| parl_match wrote:
| They actually have, but they generally refer to the
| technology by its more technical terms. Instead of saying
| "generative ai", they'll say "transformer based predictive
| text". They have a few things (keyboard, camera, photos
| app, and some others) that are actually using generative AI
| but they don't refer to it as such.
|
| And as for the folding phone, I think they couldn't build
| one to their standards. I like the concept but there's a
| reason they've stayed relatively niche in the market.
| ketralnis wrote:
| I mean sure it's "everybody" but renaming Edge to Edge: AI
| Browser (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mi
| crosoft....) is more over the top than most.
| ryanklee wrote:
| Related, from yesterday
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38864958
| asasidh wrote:
| My 2020 Macbook Pro has a function row - touchbar with a "button"
| for siri.
| kpozin wrote:
| What about the MS Office key and Emoji key? Those were definitely
| added after 1994.
|
| https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/using-the-office-k...
| paxys wrote:
| Random keys are added to keyboards all the time. In this case
| Microsoft is _requiring_ it from all their PC vendors.
| troebr wrote:
| Oof. This should be more like a media key than a required
| key. I view it like a "Volume up/down" key, it's nice but not
| essential. Although it's probably much less useful than a
| volume key.
| regularfry wrote:
| You could say the same about the Windows key itself. Many
| did.
| bityard wrote:
| This should really be the top comment in the whole thread
| because almost all of the comments I've read so far are
| missing this point.
|
| Yes, _keyboard manufacturers_ are allowed to add/remove any
| keys that they want. But most PC users are not buying
| keyboards from third-party vendors. They are buying them as
| part of the whole PC from OEMs like Dell, HP, and Lenovo. And
| the Windows OEM license agreements for those vendors state
| (to paraphrase), "If you want to ship Windows on your
| systems, you have to include the Windows and Copilot keys on
| the keyboard."
|
| And it follows that keyboard manufacturers _want_ to have
| their keyboards include all the same keys as the OEMs so that
| they can claim complete compatibility with the OEMs, possibly
| to the point of calling the keyboards Microsoft Windows(TM)
| Compatible on the box.
| hyperhopper wrote:
| Shame on Ars for this. Would have thought they would be better.
| ESPECIALLY since the "since 1994" is not important for the
| headline at all, but they just wanted to pull something out of
| their ass to embellish the headline, but actually ended up
| making it wrong by doing so.
|
| I miss terse but descriptive headlines. Everything now has to
| be 11/10 wild or clickbait that doesn't actually give a full
| piece of information.
| bombcar wrote:
| I believe the key (maahahaha) is the _requirement_.
|
| Microsoft famously required the Windows key for branded OEM
| computers/laptops, and now they're trying to require a
| Copilot key. We'll see if it flies.
| amlib wrote:
| I wished OEMs just crossed their arms and required
| Microsoft to pay a fee for each keyboard with this silly
| key...
| bombcar wrote:
| That's effectively what "happens" but it's reversed;
| Microsoft gives a 'discount' if you're OEMing with the
| key ...
|
| Perverse incentives all the way down. I remember having
| to work a bit to find "Apple" keyboards that would have
| the correct words because the Windows key was confusing
| (and in the wrong place until OS X easily supported
| remapping).
| ziddoap wrote:
| I see the word "clickbait" on HN so often it's lost all
| meaning. The headline is fine, not 11/10, and not wild.
|
| "Microsoft is adding a new key to PC keyboards" - true,
| descriptive.
|
| "for the first time since 1994" - provides context to the
| weight of the decision of adding a new key, absolutely fine.
|
| The headline is not wrong, this is the first key added that
| will be _required_ as part of the _standard_ keyboard layout
| since 1994. No shaming needed.
| jay_kyburz wrote:
| > "the company told us that the key isn't mandatory now,
| but that it expects Copilot keys to be required on Windows
| 11 keyboards "over time."
|
| It's not mandatory, and there is a chance it never will be.
| Just like the office key.
| ziddoap wrote:
| It's not mandatory _yet_ , but they expect it to be.
|
| I don't recall seeing similar statements from Microsoft
| about the office/emoji/etc. keys being expected to be
| mandatory. Was there statements along those lines?
| godelski wrote:
| > this is the first key added that will be required as part
| of the standard keyboard layout since 1994.
|
| Is it? I thought they are just remapping the right menu key
| and putting a new logo on it.
| righthand wrote:
| Also they added a Cortana key a few years ago.
|
| It must be in the press release because other media sites are
| reporting the same thing. Also Microsoft did not invent the
| Super/Meta key aka Windows key.
| ziddoap wrote:
| As mentioned elsewhere, this key will be _required_ as a part
| of the _standard_ Windows keyboard layout. This is not true
| of other recent keys (emoji, office, etc.).
| righthand wrote:
| Apparently they didn't push the Cortana key either. And
| they say it will "eventually" be required. As a keyboard
| manufacturer why would I listen to Microsoft? Why would I
| add a key that supports a product I see no benefit from?
| Just so I can trend even though my customers don't want it?
|
| I ask because this makes the "Microsoft is going to require
| it so the other keys don't count" argument useless. Who
| cares what Microsoft requires for their own hardware?
| HWR_14 wrote:
| > As a keyboard manufacturer why would I listen to
| Microsoft? Why would I add a key that supports a product
| I see no benefit from?
|
| As a keyboard manufacturer, you don't have to see any
| benefit from the product you support. The question is
| only will the incremental costs be more than offset by
| the incremental gains in sales. If MS requires the key,
| that's 90% of the market (really rough number), so it
| makes sense to add it. If MS and your competitors add it,
| it may make a significant percent of your customers go
| elsewhere. Even if they don't want the key, just because
| they think your keyboards are old.
| righthand wrote:
| Ah so aggressive keyboard trendsetters control the market
| then. It's more likely that these keyboards will be a
| rarity. And when people see a keyboard with this key in a
| few years they'll think, "what a weird old keyboard you
| have".
| hulitu wrote:
| > Also Microsoft did not invent the Super/Meta key aka
| Windows key
|
| AFAIK the Windows key generates a CTRL + ESC - so not a
| modifier key like Super/Meta.
| ElectricalUnion wrote:
| This doesn't seem to match what I sparsely remember about
| USB HID; At least on my computers I remember Super
| generating SUPER_L (wayland) or VK_LWIN (w32) - E0 5B
| scancodes.
|
| At least on Linux you can have bindings CTRL + ESC and
| SUPER_L be different things if you want.
| EduardoBautista wrote:
| How is that they thought adding a keyboard shortcut to open
| LinkedIn would be good use for a new key?
| olyjohn wrote:
| Because people will accidentally push the button and be sent
| to LinkedIn. Good for their stats. Computers are no longer
| being built to do what you want them to, but what the
| software maker wants you to do with them.
| swozey wrote:
| I cancelled Netflix years ago. I just got a new Shield TV
| remote with only a Netflix button and it is constantly
| getting hit. I probably hit it 5+ times a night. I wonder
| what they learn from that.
| dns_snek wrote:
| FYI you can remap that button to open another app, or two
| (different actions for press vs hold). I use an app
| called "Button Mapper"
| layer8 wrote:
| Those aren't real keys in the sense of having their own
| keycodes, instead they just map to some other key combination.
| The Copilot key will presumably be similar (?). These "new
| keys" are unfortunate, and a regular key that you can remap to
| whatever you want would be more useful.
| k8svet wrote:
| This so flagrantly stupid. It's easier to make every KB
| manufacturer integrate special firmware to have one keypress
| register as another specific one, rather than plumbing it in
| as a defined new key that Windows registers a handler for???
| layer8 wrote:
| That's what MS did with their own keyboards. Maybe they are
| actually defining a new key code for the Copilot key? It's
| stupid either way.
| o11c wrote:
| I for one am highly annoyed at new keys generating a
| combination, since that means they can't be mapped to some
| more useful function.
|
| ... though I've just realized that with Wayland, detecting
| key events is quite unreliable since half of them are eaten
| by the compositor ... oddly, they aren't even _reliably_
| eaten ...
| zeroxfe wrote:
| Wired/wireless keyboard manufacturers are going to go nuts with a
| whole new product line :-)
| LeifCarrotson wrote:
| What happens when you plug this keyboard into a Linux box? Is it
| just another Meta/Super key, except one that doesn't support
| combinations? Is it using one of the reserved USB HID keyboard
| scan codes? Or is it a separate device driver just for that one
| key?
| bombcar wrote:
| The "Office Key" which I have never seen just did
| CTRL+SHIFT+ALT+WIN together.
|
| It would be nice if this key somehow was actually usable.
| scrps wrote:
| I would imagine it is just another key completing a circuit, no
| additional magic so it should be as remappable as any other
| key.
| takeda wrote:
| I have feeling it will be the menu key with a different keycap.
| jerf wrote:
| It'll do whatever they spec it to do.
|
| The good news is, whatever they spec it to do will be available
| to Linux and other OSes because there's really no practical way
| to spec something Linux couldn't handle as well as Windows
| without risking antitrust action over something far too stupid
| to justify such a thing.
|
| The bad news is that people do sometimes do dumb things with
| keyboards for no reason. I'm using a Dell laptop here. I'm used
| to the common Fn key on the laptop keyboard mapping the Left
| Arrow to Home and the Right Arrow to End. Instead this keyboard
| maps Fn-F11 to Home and Fn-F12 to End. No problem I sez to
| myself, I'll just map Fn-Left and Fn-Right myself. I've got a
| number of keyboard customizations already set up anyhow. Alas.
| The Fn key is supermagical bullshit, and according to XWindows,
| Fn-Left is nothing. Not an undefined keycap or something
| suprising... it's just plain nothing. I haven't dug any deeper
| to see if maybe something lower than X is eating it because I
| don't care enough (I remapped Windows-Left and Window-Right,
| retrained my fingers, and called it a day), and I judge the
| probability that the keyboard hardware is literally emitting no
| key events for this event too high to be worthwhile.
|
| So, they _could_ spec the Copilot key to be a super magical key
| that doesn 't let you play with others and blocks all other
| keystrokes while it is held down or something. The good news
| is, I doubt they'd even _want_ to do that; they 're going to
| want to be able to tell people "Use Copilot+X" to do things
| themselves, even if they don't have anything for that on day
| one. They _could_ in principle do something like my Fn key,
| though, and rigidly insist that only certain defined shortcuts
| could be used and everything else results in no events, and
| that is at least an outside chance. Hopefully they don 't do
| anything like that, though, it's honestly more work than just
| letting it be an otherwise normal key.
| regularfry wrote:
| > The bad news is that people do sometimes do dumb things
| with keyboards for no reason.
|
| _cries in Thinkpad_
| k8svet wrote:
| And if they spec that the key just sends Win+Ctrl+Alt+C then
| what? I don't care about the new key, I care about the fact
| that it seems likely it will be implemented in an absurd way.
|
| I guess yeah, you can still bind to that key combo and use
| the key, but you don't get capacity for a "new" binding.
| jerf wrote:
| I kinda feel like I covered that.
| CrypticShift wrote:
| _The placement of the key will vary, but in some cases, it will
| replace the right CTRL key or Menu key, a Microsoft spokesperson
| told BI_ [1]
|
| [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-ai-button-pc-
| keybo...
| whynotmaybe wrote:
| Well, if they replace the "menu" key with anything else, that
| won't have any impact on me as I never use it.
| sedatk wrote:
| I use right Ctrl only for Ctrl-Break, but still I'd be furious
| if it disappeared.
| mjburgess wrote:
| Is that to restart the diskette loader when switching from
| your 3.5" to 5.5" ?
| sedatk wrote:
| Close, for cancelling the build on Visual Studio. :)
| mrweasel wrote:
| Seems a little premature and locked to a specific use case that
| isn't yet really established.
| orthecreedence wrote:
| I'm sorry to differ with you, sir, but Copilot has _always_
| been here. I should know, sir. I 've _always_ been here.
| a13o wrote:
| I remember when I was working on Facebook games, every product
| manager wanted their new feature to have one-click access from
| the main game screen. So each new feature created a new wart on
| the UI.
|
| This is that, but for hardware.
|
| Let's call it a Thirsty Feature
| potatolicious wrote:
| I love the term "Thirsty Feature". I've seen this happen many
| a-time and it's always a sign of poor product management :/
|
| Metrics looking dire? Did you ship the wrong product? Do users
| express little interest in what you have made?
|
| No worries - juice your metrics and secure that promo by
| forcibly throwing your feature at users' faces in an
| existentially inescapable way, like an out of control t-shirt
| cannon!
| dharmab wrote:
| This is the entire Amazon store page for me.
| dijit wrote:
| I get so tilted at the idea of a specific OS vendor having a
| dedicated keyboard button on all non-apple computers.
|
| And now they are doing it again, wild.
| arp242 wrote:
| I'm not a huge fan it has a Windows logo printed on it, but
| there are good usability reasons for the key, even on non-
| Windows systems, and there was just a big hunk of empty space
| between Ctrl and Alt before. So nothing is really lost for non-
| Windows users. It seems to me there are more pressing matters
| to get angry about than the logo on a keyboard.
|
| And whether we like or not not, Windows _is_ the dominant
| desktop OS, so "OS operations key" having the Windows logo i
| not entirely nonsensical really. Almost every non-technical
| person uses Windows, and even within the technical crowd
| Windows is probably the most common system.
|
| Bit less of a case for the "Copilot key", although it remains
| to be seen if "becomes mandatory over time" will come to pass.
| dijit wrote:
| I knew someone would bring up the utility of the key as a
| meta-modifier.[0]
|
| Sun keyboards had a diamond to mark that key, which is better
| to my mind than a third party commercial OS logo.
|
| I wouldn't even mind if it was the keyboard manufacturer
| logo.
|
| [0]: https://deskthority.net/wiki/File:Suntype7sf.jpg
| everforward wrote:
| I got custom keycaps for unrelated reasons that have that
| on the super key and I wondered what it was.
|
| Comically to me, it has both the diamond and Apple's
| command key logo. Windows is the only one missing.
| chuckadams wrote:
| Originally that diamond was the Sun logo, which was
| diamond-shaped.
| baq wrote:
| I use my windows keyboard on a mac, if that key wasn't there
| then I'd have to get a dedicated Mac keyboard.
| dijit wrote:
| I'm not suggesting removing the key, merely that every OEM
| who dares to ship windows being required to place a 3rd
| party key is myopic.
|
| It can even make the laptops/PC's look dated if the OS logo
| changes.. which has happened.
| twic wrote:
| FWIW, on a Das Keyboard, the Windows keys have a little Das
| logo on them, rather than a Windows logo.
| jcgrillo wrote:
| > big hunk of empty space between Ctrl and Alt
|
| This empty space can be a _feature_ for emacs users who use
| the outside of their opposite palm for actuating the ctrl or
| alt keys.
|
| I personally gave up on this approach years ago because it
| was only viable on my IBM model M which is hard to transport.
| Instead now I always remap caps to ctrl, that way no matter
| what keyboard I'm using it feels familiar.
| floxy wrote:
| The Logitech K860 keyboard doesn't have the Windows logo on
| the Windows key. It has "opt" and "start" along with
| undecipherable half-a-stew-pot icon:
|
| https://www.imore.com/ergo-k860-split-ergonomic-keyboard-
| rev...
|
| ...mostly just posting this to hear what others might think
| that icon represents.
| dijit wrote:
| That symbol represents an alternative and indicates the
| function of the key. Its used on Apple computers.
|
| IE: alt
| floxy wrote:
| Ah, so it is maybe graphically similar to the double-
| throw switch schematic symbol.
|
| https://wiringengineabt.z19.web.core.windows.net/double-
| pole...
| duskwuff wrote:
| Or a railroad switch.
| elwell wrote:
| Should last as long as Mac's Touchbar
| scrps wrote:
| Because everyone loves brand marketing on their keyboards...
|
| Microsoft would incur far less wrath if they would stop letting
| their marketing department run their company.
| nindalf wrote:
| You're going to get shocked when you find the Windows key on
| most keyboards.
| scrps wrote:
| Sorry, I assumed the implied word 'more' was obvious to
| everyone who has used a computer keyboard in the last 30
| years.
| paulddraper wrote:
| And an Apple key on a bunch of others.
| duskwuff wrote:
| It hasn't been an "Apple key" since 2010 or so. On all
| recent machines, it's just labeled as "Command", with the
| [?] symbol.
| paulddraper wrote:
| Ah yes, the well-known U+2318 Place of Interest Sign :D
| tiborsaas wrote:
| It's hard to buy a TV with a remote control that has no
| streaming provider buttons. I guess that's where they are
| getting the idea from.
| imron wrote:
| Microsoft was having these ideas since before being a
| streaming provider was even possible as a business - see for
| example the windows key.
| roody15 wrote:
| Hmm hope this isn't the version that mixes in web results and web
| advertisements into its AI response. Hope it's not limited to
| certain number of back and forth responses and essentially
| sanitized and neutered.
| Zandikar wrote:
| Honestly, my initial reaction to this was my typical jaded,
| cynical, anti-MS self, but after consideration - and the key fact
| that they're replacing a key, not adding one necessitating a new
| layout - I'm honestly okay with this. does anyone use the menu
| key (the key that allegedly this will replace)? It's certainly
| one of the first to go in enthusiast keyboards using non standard
| 100% layouts, As long as it's not some stupid propreitary
| implementation and can be remapped to something useful for those
| of us not interested in a copilot hotkey, I'm fine with this.
|
| Sidenote, what do people do for push to talk, because if I can
| disable the copilot trigger and just make this a PTT key then
| that's great, but I suspect a proper PTT button is one those
| things everyone else has solved and I've just been under a rock.
|
| EDITED for clarity
| kunwon1 wrote:
| My initial reaction was similar. I use the menu key, but
| rarely. I will certainly never use a copilot key.
| Sebguer wrote:
| Mouse side button. Caps lock if I'm using a mouse that doesn't
| have one - but like, it depends on the context you're using PTT
| in. I only use it while gaming, really.
| Ajedi32 wrote:
| Soon we'll be living in the future Scotty envisioned.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hShY6xZWVGE
| denton-scratch wrote:
| > but does anyone use the menu key?
|
| I've never used the menu key. I don't really know what it does
| (what menu it's supposed to pull up).
|
| I object to software vendors dictating unnecessary features in
| peripherals their software isn't even going to run on.
| Zandikar wrote:
| It's mouse-right click but on the keyboard (context menu). I
| believe it's an accessibility thing now that I think about
| it, which might be why MS is saying "maybe" and considering
| other keys to replace instead - though that's speculation on
| my part.
|
| Also, unless I misunderstood this, this is only being
| mandated for hardware that ships with Windows on it (Eg,
| surface or desktops that come with windows installed), so
| this is only being mandated for peripherals that their
| software is going to run on (or on devices those peripherals
| come with and connect to).
|
| Will Dell be lazy and ship the copilot key on their ubuntu
| laptops? I'd be damned shocked if they didn't, but that's
| just them cutting corners/oversight if I understand this
| correctly? For example, System76 can completely disregard
| this if they so choose. I'm sure Apple will.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| But, but...
|
| Nearly all retail PCs are sold with Windows, even if
| Windows is blown away immediately and replaced with Linux
| or something. And while it may not be mandated for 3rd-
| party keyboards (e.g. logitech), it'll turn up on all of
| those too.
| Zandikar wrote:
| Yes, and?
|
| Mandate != Trend.
|
| There's a very important difference, and logitech et al
| following suite is a choice, just like there will plenty
| of enthusiast/premium/higher end offerings that will let
| you customize it in all number of ways - like they
| already do.
|
| And just because those keyboards have the windows logo on
| the super key doesn't mean Linux is going to kernel panic
| when you press. I mean, there's always a chance I
| suppose, but then something far more interesting is going
| on.
|
| If they're giving some sort of kickback or financial
| incentive to embrace, extend, extinguish something with
| this initiative, I wouldn't be surprised, but I see no
| indication of that yet.
| jen20 wrote:
| It opens the context menu of the currently focused item. It's
| very useful for keyboard-centric Windows users (and probably
| works in KDE etc, though I haven't verified that).
| myself248 wrote:
| I use the menu key where it's available, and ctrl-shift-F10
| where it isn't. (Most new laptops seem to omit it.)
|
| When I'm in Windows, that is, which is an ever-dwindling
| share of my time.
| Zandikar wrote:
| Interesting, may I ask why/how/in what scenarios? Is it a
| trackpad thing? I was assuming it was an accessibility
| thing. That key's always been strange to me, never could
| figure out who used it and for what.
| user_7832 wrote:
| It's very handy for me when say I only have one finger
| available to operate the laptop (eg holding
| something/having dinner).
| baq wrote:
| It's quite useful to correct highlighted spelling errors.
| whyoh wrote:
| Sometimes when I want to "right click" something, it's
| more comfortable to use the Menu key than to reach for
| the mouse. For example, when going through a list of
| items with the arrow keys.
| sedatk wrote:
| I use the menu key. And all this new key provides is to open
| copilot sidebar. That's all. I expected something like a push
| to talk conversation agent using the key. It's not the case.
| Very underwhelming, IMHO.
|
| EDIT: I actually assumed it would open the sidebar because
| that's what I saw on Scott Hanselman's alternate shortcut trick
| video. Maybe Microsoft is planning for a push to talk agent. In
| that case, a dedicated key might be okay.
| MrZander wrote:
| I don't use the menu key for daily-driver uses, but I have
| definitely used it in situations where the mouse was
| inoperable. It can occasionally be useful if a window gets
| stuck off-screen and you can't right click it. All rare
| scenarios, though.
| krinchan wrote:
| I use a USB foot-pedal mapped to `.
| zamadatix wrote:
| I hope this is implemented as an additional modifier instead of a
| macro type key combo. The more modifier keys on typical keyboards
| the merrier!
| taftster wrote:
| Ha ha, I'm just already thinking of the possibilities...
| Shift-CoPilot-C
|
| Clippy resurrects, "how may I help you today?"
| pjbk wrote:
| I honestly thought this was a joke since the key icon seemed like
| a female menstruation pad to me. Oh, how times have changed.
| amlib wrote:
| At least it will have a new purpose once the AI bubble
| bursts...
| orthecreedence wrote:
| Yeah, we can map it to "order a 500-pack of tampons on Amazon
| Prime."
| QuercusMax wrote:
| Looks more like a band-aid to me. Either way, now that you've
| said that i'll never un-see it.
| bonton89 wrote:
| Really? Terrible marketing design from Microsoft has always
| been something you can set your watch too.
|
| Most people would just put a picture of an airplane on there
| and call it a day but that would be missing an opportunity for
| pointless over-branding that people have come to expect when
| trying to use their Windows PC.
| bunderbunder wrote:
| Translation: Someone at Microsoft is already getting very, very
| worried about the return on all this investment they've put into
| generative AI.
| atleastoptimal wrote:
| Even with dozens of silly integrations like this they'll still
| make their investment back handily
| tester756 wrote:
| I disagree, as I see there's huge momentum to push AI onto edge
| like "AI PC" initiative
|
| between SW & HW companies
| bunderbunder wrote:
| Even if generative AI does see huge uptake, that does not
| guarantee that Microsoft's implementation is the one that
| everyone uses. And, even if Microsoft's is the one that
| everyone uses, that does not guarantee that they make money
| of of it.
|
| For further examples of money-losing products that changed
| the world, see the entire history of our crazy industry.
| myself248 wrote:
| And they have no useful levers to pull, so they invent a
| useless one and yank it as hard as they can.
|
| We all know exactly what's causing this, and we all know
| exactly how it'll turn out. How do we collectively tell them to
| knock it off? The industry needs some mechanism to stage an
| intervention, perhaps once they've cooled down a little from
| their present mania.
| user_7832 wrote:
| > How do we collectively tell them to knock it off
|
| The "easiest" might be an antitrust suit. Forcing or bundling
| (or apparently advertising) one product with another runs
| afoul of anti-bundling laws, and there's an argument to be
| made for windows and openAI/copilot to both be monopolies.
|
| Now, who has a dozens of millions lying around to fund such a
| suit?
| nickfromseattle wrote:
| >And they have no useful levers to pull, so they invent a
| useless one and yank it as hard as they can.
|
| From my understanding, Bing hasn't stolen any marketshare
| from Google since integrating ChatGPT. I think this could.
|
| Pressing a key is easier than typing in Google.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| Microsoft's goal is to have copilot present and monitoring
| everywhere you input data & interact with Windows (CP is always
| ready to help!)
|
| This will provide an unprecedented layer telemetry gathering
| for Microsoft, including personal and sensitive data that
| wasn't as reliably available before.
|
| Achieving one of the Gold Rings of surveillance is a powerful
| motivator.
| altairprime wrote:
| Whatever harvesting your specific personal creative written
| output for profit without compensation is called, that's not
| telemetry. Telemetry is usage statistics. This is bulk theft
| of your copyrighted works at scale.
| gtirloni wrote:
| _> Microsoft is adding a new key to PC keyboards_
|
| Not to mine.
|
| _> A quick Microsoft demo video shows the Copilot key in between
| the cluster of arrow keys and the right Alt button, a place where
| many keyboards usually put a menu button, a right Ctrl key,
| another Windows key, or something similar_
|
| I barely use any of those keys, especially the menu key.
|
| Just Microsoft's marketing department doing what they have alwasy
| done.
| ActionHank wrote:
| looks like it takes the place of the menu key?
| accrual wrote:
| I'd rather they take the right Win key. Sometimes I'm able to
| do quite a bit of work without using a mouse, and having the
| Menu/right-click key is useful. There's got to be cases were
| menus are _only_ available via right-click.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| > I barely use any of those keys, especially the menu key.
|
| I need it in situations where I don't have a working mouse. eg:
| new virtual machine without extensions or where where I'm
| debugging mouse issues.
| bonton89 wrote:
| I complained about this as well since I use it for automation
| but SHIFT+F10 does the same thing.
| stetrain wrote:
| Ah good, I'm sure that will age as well as the Cortana button.
| proactivesvcs wrote:
| And the MSN Messenger button on the headset that I'm wearing
| :-)
| lylejantzi3rd wrote:
| And the Bixby button on my Samsung Galaxy.
| asdff wrote:
| Nothing quite like taking your hands off the controller to
| waive at your kinect in an fps game. MS hardware engineers
| really are interesting to say the least.
| TedDallas wrote:
| OK MS. The first thing I'll do is rebind it to run llamafile.exe
| evbogue wrote:
| I somehow misread the title and thought Microsoft was going to
| require an AI keylogger be built into every keyboard. Then I
| realized that it is a key to turn on the keylogger!
| gumballindie wrote:
| The key-logger is already in.
| keyme wrote:
| Keyboard layouts should be legally required to be standard.
| nolist_policy wrote:
| No thanks, I'll just buy a Chromebook. Which all have the same
| keyboard layout.
| NoZebra120vClip wrote:
| What's really refreshing for me about the Chromebook is a clean
| keyboard layout that's not encumbered by legacy placements or
| requirements.
|
| They were able to sweep away the Windows modifiers, the Fn key,
| F1-F12, and even Caps Lock! In their place, they've established
| a nice selection of quick-action keys, and the replacement of
| "Win" with "Search" is intuitive and efficient.
|
| Using a Chromebook for Google properties at work has really
| accelerated my productivity. Knowing lots of keyboard
| shortcuts, and being able to efficiently use chords in place of
| dedicated keys (such as PgUp, PgDn, Home, End) is a joy. The
| biggest reward is an uncrowded keymap which affords generous
| surface area for each keycap. In contrast, my Lenovo's keyboard
| has many keys I simply don't use, and all of them are small and
| cramped, I am continually looking down to see where my fingers
| should go.
| l0c0b0x wrote:
| Why not just rebrand the 'Windows' key with 'Copilot', and make
| either the start menu or copilot launch based on one key press or
| a key hold?
| catboybotnet wrote:
| That's cool and all, but when are we getting a dedicated LinkedIn
| key? I'm getting tired of hitting the shortcut everytime...
| doodpants wrote:
| "On an up-to-date Windows PC with Copilot enabled, you can
| currently do the same thing by pressing Windows + C. For PCs
| without Copilot enabled, including those that aren't signed into
| Microsoft accounts, the Copilot key will open Windows Search
| instead"
|
| Just tried Windows + C on my Win 10 machine; it brings up a
| dialog that helpfully informs me "Cortana in Windows as a
| standalone app is deprecated."
| steve1977 wrote:
| I guess Windows 10 is not considered up to date per se...
| theultdev wrote:
| Tip: you can use https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher to
| make it open the clock instead.
|
| (just built a new PC and Windows 11 was quite awful w/ stock
| UX)
| tech234a wrote:
| On Windows 10, Windows + S opens search.
| rnd0 wrote:
| >Just tried Windows + C on my Win 10 machine; it brings up a
| dialog that helpfully informs me "Cortana in Windows as a
| standalone app is deprecated."
|
| _smirks_
|
| I'm sure this button will share the same fate come 2030, 2034.
| That said, I'm curious what GNOME and MATE will do with it -if
| anything.
| kdtsh wrote:
| Maybe Space Cadet style modifiers will make a comeback!
| bsimpson wrote:
| I'm surprised it's not easier to find HYPER key caps to
| replace CAPS.
|
| I've been binding my caps to escape for a decade. There was
| a moment there where ChromeOS pointed out the vestigal
| nature of the caps key, and a blog post went viral in
| hacker circles about the history of the Hyper key. I ran
| Karabiner until Apple added ESC binding to Preferences.
|
| I can chord Esc+A and ESC+S to Quick Open and Command
| Palette (respectively) in my editor, and then I get an easy
| escape key for the rest of the time.
| twic wrote:
| This is awesome! I'll be able to map that to window manager
| functions in Cinnamon, and they won't conflict with any
| application's keystrokes.
| layer8 wrote:
| Maybe you wont, it wasn't possible with the "Office" key,
| because that just mapped to Shift+Ctrl+Alt+Win (I'm not
| joking). The Copilot key may just be hardcoded to map to Win+C
| or similar.
| regularfry wrote:
| This should already be the case with the Meta key (which some
| platforms will insist on calling "Win"), shouldn't it?
|
| I think the model of having a key which is _only ever_ used for
| workspace management, and never by the applications themselves,
| is so obviously correct that the MacOS Command key actively
| baffles me.
| layer8 wrote:
| I'm one of the apparently few people who use the Menu key [0] at
| that location all the time. I find it frustrating that this key
| location is constantly being repurposed for other functions, if
| the key isn't omitted altogether. It wouldn't be so bad if the
| key could be remapped back to Menu, but it often either has a
| keyboard-local function like Fn, or is hardcoded to a key
| combination, or uses some out-of-band USB protocol instead of
| sending a normal scancode.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menu_key
| RedShift1 wrote:
| I'm ok with this if I can remap to the right click key that has
| disappeared over the years. I use that one a lot on laptops.
| thefuersty wrote:
| Wonder if the Co-pilot feature will map to a "normal" keystroke;
| similar to how you can pull up the Start Menu on a keyboard
| without the Start button with a Ctrl-Escape.
|
| Bing AI says it's not yet settled if that will be an option.
| nbzso wrote:
| I gave my friends the following advice.
|
| Push yourselves away from AI trend tools and learn what is what
| before falling into this trap.
|
| In the era of AI those who can think, draw, write, code and be
| the best in their craft without it will rule the rest. Simple and
| clear. Prompting is not a skill which will differentiate (except
| for AI devs, as a part of fine-tuning the model's output).
|
| The real danger of AI is not getting agency ang killing us (yet).
|
| The real danger, in my view, is normalization and trust into
| technology which "hallucinates" and obtains a formidable property
| with a name "The Black Box".
|
| Don't get me starting on privacy.:)
| IshKebab wrote:
| Terrible advice. This is like telling people not to use an IDE
| because auto-complete isn't always right. Or not to use
| document templates because they aren't finished.
|
| Github Copilot can - in some domains - make me 30% more
| productive. Once it becomes commonplace and the legal issues
| are sorted, luddites who refuse to use it will be left in the
| dust.
| gumballindie wrote:
| Good analogy - people that only know how to code using an ide
| are usually the worse. Those who thrive are those that know
| and understand things. If 30% of your job can be done by a
| procedural generator then your work is worthless. Probably
| because you do stuff you dont understand, and will be freed
| to focus on more important things - such as luddites or who
| killed biggie.
| nbzso wrote:
| I don't think autocomplete is comparable with generative code
| processes. Using AI as a helper in analytics and
| documentation, yes.
|
| But how knowing to code without AI will leave me in the dust?
| I will know less? Or I will be so slow that the management
| will oust me?
|
| After measuring my "performance" trough corporate timer for
| code per minute?
| postalrat wrote:
| Discussing it here won't change whatever happens in a
| couple years.
| orthecreedence wrote:
| Nevermind that hailing this machine -- owned by some faceless
| profit-driven entity -- as an "expert" of all fields will
| eventually leave people open to mass manipulation on an even
| higher order than search engines already do.
| everforward wrote:
| The responses here feel a little jaded to me. I'm not a fan of
| the corporate-driven nature of the change, but I do think "could
| we do something more useful with the menu key?" is a fair
| question and the answer is almost certainly yes.
|
| AI has limitations and yada yada but use cases for the Menu key
| seem slim, and I'd get more mileage out of an "answer a stupid
| question where I'm okay with a probability of it being right"
| button.
|
| How long would it take to swim from Florida to France? Why is the
| hole on cans of soda indented? Why do some fundraisers collect
| tabs from cans instead of the whole can?
|
| I'm sure you can configure a keyboard to do that now (and
| likewise, you can likely restore Menu's former function), but for
| the average user who doesn't even know that's an option Menu is a
| waste of space.
|
| AI might not even be the best option to replace Menu, but I do
| think it's worth talking about replacing it.
| manicennui wrote:
| People are jaded because of MS's history. Some of us didn't
| realize that they are still forcing OEMs to do nonsense like
| this.
| crabmusket wrote:
| > "could we do something more useful with the menu key?"
|
| I think the answer is "open PowerToys Run"
| everforward wrote:
| Ooh, I've never seen that before. That would make perfect
| sense; I'd probably use it more than the AI. The current
| keycaps even still make sense.
| neilv wrote:
| Decades later, the Win95 keys are still making my life a little
| bit worse, throughout each day. (Jammed into the laptop keyboards
| that I use all day, when I only want Ctrl and Alt there.)
| neilv wrote:
| > _Copilot key will eventually be required in new PC keyboards,
| though not yet._
|
| Is there an antitrust angle on this?
| jzb wrote:
| Here I am, still buying old Microsoft Natural ergonomic keyboards
| from the 90s off eBay and using them with Linux. To date, I
| haven't found a better keyboard. And I don't expect I'll miss the
| Copilot key anytime soon.
| egberts1 wrote:
| Audibly speaking: "Cortana, bring back Mr. Clippy."
| gumballindie wrote:
| South Park needs a "Put AI in it and make it lame" episode.
| nateb2022 wrote:
| Previously: _A new Copilot key to kick off the year of AI-powered
| Windows PCs_ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38864958 (85
| comments)
| elric wrote:
| Great way to mess up muscle memory again. The original addition
| of the windows (or meta, if you're so inclined) key wasn't too
| bad, as most keyboards had a blank space there. But then people
| pushed the Fn. And the menu key. And the bottom row became a
| mess. With some keyboards having Fn>Ctrl>Win>Alt, while others
| have Ctrl>Fn>Win>Alt, or a permutation without an Fn key.
|
| None of my keyboards have a menu key. And none of my laptop
| keyboards have a right Win key. There really isn't any room for
| another garbage key there.
|
| Don't get me started on how the
| home/end/insert/delete/pgup/pgdown cluster got massacred and
| merged with the arrow keys. Some keyboard designers really have
| no respect for the people who actually use their products.
| anticorporate wrote:
| > Copilot key will eventually be required in new PC keyboards
|
| To point out the obvious, no, it won't. Microsoft does not define
| what a PC is. Sure, they can make up whatever fanciful hardware
| requirements for their own operating system that they want to,
| and they can force whatever absurdities they want into contracts
| with manufacturers. But I guarantee my PC will not have a
| keyboard with this key.
| manuelabeledo wrote:
| > But I guarantee my PC will not have a keyboard with this key.
|
| ... And 99% of PCs around the world, will, which is
| indistinguishable from "requiring" it.
| jl6 wrote:
| They do have enough weight in the PC market to create some kind
| of "Made for Windows" program which would stand a good chance
| of swaying the keyboard manufacturers, who would no doubt love
| an excuse to get everyone to buy a new keyboard.
| bsimpson wrote:
| I wonder if there's some deal attached to the use of the
| Windows logo on the Super key - to put a Windows logo on one,
| you have to put the Copilot logo on the other.
|
| I also wonder how wired Windows users are to the Windows logo
| on the key. Being a Mac guy, I actually don't know the
| history of the Windows key.
| godelski wrote:
| > But I guarantee my PC will not have a keyboard with this key.
|
| The article is misleading and if you click on the actual video
| (I linked in my main comment) they're just replacing a keycap
| and doing a remap. Layout is the same. So... technically your
| PC will probably have this key, just not the printed icon on
| it.
| anticorporate wrote:
| I suspect that whatever PC I have in 20 years will still have
| an IBM Model M keyboard attached via whatever weird
| combination of dongles it requires to make this true.
| Buttons840 wrote:
| Tangentially: The reason Windows is more popular than Linux is
| because of momentum / existing familiarity and because Microsoft
| employees are paid to do the annoying work needed to finish that
| last 5% of the user experience.
|
| As we approach the entire OS being accessible and controllable
| through a voice interface / LLM, well, that's pretty fun and sexy
| and is something that open source contributors are more willing
| to work on. If the Windows interface is "just talk to the
| computer", and the Linux interface is "just talk to the
| computer", why wouldn't people switch to Linux? If Grandma can
| use Linux as well as Windows, why not use Linux?
|
| Sometimes it feels like were converging on AGI faster than we are
| a universal GUI library.
|
| (Insert joke about the year of Linux.)
| paulddraper wrote:
| > The reason Windows is more popular than Linux
|
| The reason Windows is more popular than Linux is the mountain
| of software and device drivers developed for it.
|
| Which I realize is chicken-and-egg, but it's a really big
| chicken.
| wnevets wrote:
| Why stop there? Lets add a quibi key next.
| godelski wrote:
| This impression feels dishonest. They link a video from
| microsoft[0] which shows a copilot key on the bottom row left of
| the arrow keys. Here's a diagram
|
| ... [space bar] [alt] [copilot] [left arrow] ...
|
| Every keyboard I own already has a key here that I don't use.
| Right of spacebar: on my logi keyboard I have [cmd/alt] [fn]
| [opt/ctrl]; on my Code keyboard I have [alt] [blank] [fn] [ctrl];
| on my actoo international I have [lang switch] [alt] [fn] [menu]
| [ctrl]; on my Air I have [cmd] [option]. I can dig out more if
| this isn't sufficient. Only in rare circumstances have I ever
| used any of these keys. I rarely ever use the windows key on the
| left side either (tbf I mostly am mac or linux but even on work
| computers I don't).
|
| The title, subtitle, and article make it sound like there's going
| to be a keyboard layout change when really all I'm getting is
| that they're going to change a keycap. Doesn't seem insane to me,
| especially considering a lot of the comments around here.
|
| [0] https://youtu.be/S1R08Qx6Fvs?t=5
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