[HN Gopher] AMD's 22 year old GPUs are still getting updates
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       AMD's 22 year old GPUs are still getting updates
        
       Author : titaniumtown
       Score  : 213 points
       Date   : 2024-01-04 15:39 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (gitlab.freedesktop.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (gitlab.freedesktop.org)
        
       | anotherhue wrote:
       | ATI GPUs technically
       | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_R300_series
       | 
       | OSS wins again I think.
       | 
       | I had one of these, a fancy red 9700 Pro that I remember playing
       | Max Payne, JK2 and FarCry on.
       | 
       | Specs https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-9700-pro.c50
        
         | dgfitz wrote:
         | I had one of those as well, with the 75ohms tv connector and
         | everything, first PC build in highschool.
         | 
         | The tuner didn't work as well as just watching tv, but the
         | novelty of it was pretty neat. Bear in mind, this was long
         | before people had a TV in every room.
        
         | anthk wrote:
         | I still have one, I can't remember if it was an r300 or r600.
         | Radeon X1200, a laptop.
        
         | amlib wrote:
         | I remember drooling over this card and half-life 2, while all I
         | had was a voodoo 3. It took me so long to upgrade my computer
         | that by the time I did this series of cards was already two or
         | more generations too old, and in the end I opted for some newer
         | nvidia card. But alas, I finally could play Valve's masterpiece
         | lol
        
       | Vvector wrote:
       | More accurate headline: open source software gets updates to
       | support 22 year old AMD GPUs.
        
         | phkahler wrote:
         | No, the old GPUs were already supported. The performance is
         | still being improved now.
        
           | dark-star wrote:
           | yes, but not by AMD, but the community. Lots of 20+ year old
           | community projects still get feature- or performance-updates
           | these days.
           | 
           | However, finding a vendor who would do that will prove to be
           | an impossible task
        
             | atq2119 wrote:
             | At some point you have to accept that a 20 year old GPU(!)
             | just isn't interesting for anything other than historical
             | and nerd-sniping purposes.
             | 
             | That said, I'm sure you could pay Collabora or some shop
             | like it to implement any features for these old drivers
             | that you really care about.
        
         | szatkus wrote:
         | Yeah, I looked up the author and the changes were comitted from
         | a gmail account. The official contibution from AMD would be
         | made from an account with amd.com domain.
        
           | JonChesterfield wrote:
           | For what it's worth that doesn't follow - the gmail account
           | may well be an AMD employee. Using an email that survives
           | changing employer can be less hassle.
        
         | asveikau wrote:
         | I did a quick glance to see if anybody was funding this,
         | correct me if I'm wrong but it looks to me like a random dude
         | in Czechia who happens to still use the card.
        
       | FirmwareBurner wrote:
       | A bit of a misleading title, considering that AMD officially
       | stopped updating drivers for Vega GPUs which are still being sold
       | in products today(!) based on Ryzen 5000 APUs. They'll only see
       | security updates.
       | 
       | So I have mixed feeling on AMDs update support periods. OSS
       | drivers and community dev effort is a different thing from the
       | manufacturer's own efforts and should be mentioned as such.
       | 
       | Edit: @downvoters, would you mind explaining please? Not that I
       | care what you do, I'm just curious on your logic. Thanks
        
         | mouse_ wrote:
         | I have to respect for AMD for at the very least following the
         | standards they helped create, unlike Nvidia. That makes things
         | like this possible.
        
         | pdpi wrote:
         | This is definitely something the OSS community deserves most of
         | the praise for, but, AIUI, the overall quality of the radeon
         | drivers is only possible because AMD has a pretty good history
         | around giving the community the specs to work with, so they
         | definitely deserve credit there.
        
         | ho_schi wrote:
         | 1. Doesn't apply to Linux.         2. Probably also doesn't
         | apply to Windows[1][2].
         | 
         | Please correct me if I missed something.
         | 
         | [1] https://community.amd.com/t5/gaming/product-and-os-
         | support-u...
         | 
         | [2] https://community.amd.com/t5/gaming/product-and-os-
         | support-u...
        
           | aleph_minus_one wrote:
           | Your links are from 2021. :-(
        
           | ZekeSulastin wrote:
           | AMD split off Polaris and Vega drivers last September;
           | official ROCm support ended earlier but afaik you can still
           | run ROCm on Vega?
           | 
           | Similarly worrisome for gamers is aging architectural
           | features as devs catch up to hardware, i.e. mesh shaders in
           | Alan Wake 2 supported in Turing+ and RDNA2+.
           | 
           | https://www.anandtech.com/show/21126/amd-reduces-ongoing-
           | dri...
        
           | ColonelPhantom wrote:
           | My HD 7850 machine on Windows is currently on some legacy-
           | branch "22.6.1" driver, over a year old. Even my RX 580 is on
           | another legacy branch now, with most updates only being for
           | RDNA cards.
           | 
           | AMD's dropping of Polaris and Vega also applies to Linux,
           | where the AMDVLK first-party driver stopped supporting them.
           | ROCm also does not work anymore.
           | 
           | Of course, nobody uses AMDVLK so it's not a huge loss (RADV
           | is generally a lot better), but the loss of ROCm does suck.
        
       | andy_ppp wrote:
       | I think drivers should be compulsory to open source 5 years after
       | the hardware is no longer sold, it'd be so good for consumers and
       | make hardware last a lot longer.
       | 
       | I'd include things like digital cameras and printers in this
       | revolution. In a lot of cases it might be better using older
       | hardware as new features would be added by the community forever!
        
         | ho_schi wrote:
         | Why five years? Modules (precisely speaking about Linux) shall
         | be open-source upon sale!
         | 
         | Nothing new for AMD and Intel. But we have likely a new field
         | below, firmware. Nvidia (and both from above) push a lot of
         | stuff there now. Firmware often contains security and bugfixes
         | nowadays.
         | 
         | PS: Hoping right now that the newest firmware for RDNA2 fixes
         | issues with PSR (backlight turns off).
        
           | mlyle wrote:
           | > Modules (precisely speaking about Linux) shall be open-
           | source upon sale!
           | 
           | Linux's interpretation of the GPL allows closed source and
           | proprietary modules (providing you conform to a somewhat
           | limited set of interfaces).
           | 
           | There's a lot of closed source binary lumps out there for
           | different hardware.
        
         | pwg wrote:
         | >I think drivers should be compulsory to open source 5 years
         | after the hardware is no longer sold,
         | 
         | Why wait five years? The hardware stops being sold on date X,
         | the software/firmware must be published the same day.
         | 
         | > In a lot of cases it might be better using older hardware as
         | new features would be added by the community forever!
         | 
         | And here you have found why the OEM's will fight via hordes of
         | lobbyists any attempt to legislate a required publishing of
         | software/firmware for out of production hardware. Keeping the
         | old hardware useful after the OEM end-of-life's it means the
         | OEM sees a smaller number of future sales of their "new and
         | improved V2.0" [1] hardware, equating directly to lower revenue
         | and profit.
         | 
         | [1] where what is "new and improved" is often nothing more than
         | eye candy to convince you to give up your 1.0 version and buy
         | the 2.0 variety.
        
           | bombcar wrote:
           | From my experience in the industry the problems are usually
           | working out the licensing of tons of licensed code that is
           | included from other companies more than a desire to force
           | upgrades.
        
             | moomin wrote:
             | Graphics card drivers are the absolute worst because not
             | only do you have these licensing issues, but many games
             | have workarounds because the API isn't called correctly so
             | the driver just... makes up what should have happened.
        
             | ndriscoll wrote:
             | This is where regulation works well; if hardware
             | manufacturers are required to open their code, it will be a
             | standard and expected part of supplier contracts. If
             | someone wants to license their code, they will have to
             | allow for that or they'll have no buyers.
        
               | robertlagrant wrote:
               | Do we know this regulation works well? Where's it been
               | implemented?
        
               | ndriscoll wrote:
               | Maybe I'm naive, but things like UL or ROHS or GDPR or
               | SOC2 seem analogous to me. Want to be a supplier for an
               | organization that needs a certification? Then your
               | product and all of your suppliers and all of your
               | competitors need to be able to meet that requirement, and
               | it's just a table stakes feature.
        
           | kuschku wrote:
           | That's something I'm really angry over right now. Atomos
           | builds the Ninja V portable monitor/recorder for videography
           | purposes.
           | 
           | They sold the Ninja V and the Ninja V+, two exactly identical
           | devices, but the Ninja V has artificial limitations of what
           | resolutions it allows you to process. Obviously, you have to
           | pay extra to enable other codecs, 99$ each.
           | 
           | So already the worst of DRM imaginable, especially as the
           | only way to remove the artificial limitations of the Ninja V
           | is to throw it away, buy an entirely new Ninja V+, and buy
           | all unlocks separately yet again. Oh, and if you try to
           | resell any of your devices, Atomos wipes the unlocks and
           | demands that the new owner buys them yet again.
           | 
           | So already the worst kind of DRM infested money-grabbing BS
           | imaginable.
           | 
           | But no, they found a way to make it even worse. They just
           | deprecated the Ninja V and V+ and announced the all new Ninja
           | and Ninja Ultra. They're identical. Same battery runtime.
           | Same resolution. Same weight. Same performance.
           | 
           | But now with the new and improved AtomOS 11 software. Can't
           | install that on the Ninja V/V+. Only way to upgrade? Throw
           | your Ninja V away and buy a new Ninja.
           | 
           | If I find a way to jailbreak these devices, I fucking will.
           | God I hate them so much.
        
             | gavin_gee wrote:
             | the only solution is more competition for Ninja.
        
         | treyd wrote:
         | Why is it not compulsory to release the source code from day 1?
         | If you're making a driver it's because you're selling hardware,
         | that's where your profit and value is. Commingling the two
         | leads to perverse incentives and conflicts of interest.
        
           | teaearlgraycold wrote:
           | For GPUs the driver is mostly a gigantic list of performance
           | hacks for different software packages. That might be an asset
           | to competitors.
           | 
           | But I think NVidia would be perfectly fine financially if
           | they gave this out.
        
             | mey wrote:
             | Considering Intel Arc's launch, it would've been a massive
             | boon to them to have this information. Granted this
             | information is likely highly customized to Nvidia
             | architecture so it may be of little use, but Arc made it
             | very apparent exactly how many games just barely work at
             | all. You can also see that in the excellent Dolphin
             | emulator team write ups.
        
               | Dalewyn wrote:
               | Intel's woes with ARC stem from the fact their silicon
               | straight up doesn't support anything below DX12, so they
               | have to rely on software emulation for them.
               | 
               | Nvidia and AMD both support DX versions below DX12 in
               | their silicon, they don't have to emulate anything which
               | means better performance.
               | 
               | Even if Intel had access to Nvidia and AMD's driver
               | source codes, none of it would be useful because they
               | don't have the silicon.
        
             | shmerl wrote:
             | Note how it's much shorter for Vulkan:
             | 
             | * https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/-/blob/main/src/
             | uti...
             | 
             | * https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/-/blob/main/src/
             | uti...
        
             | vel0city wrote:
             | I'd actually say nvidia _wouldn 't_ be perfectly fine
             | giving this out. Their drivers are a big part of the secret
             | sauce that makes things like CUDA so dominant.
             | 
             | Nvidia's biggest product is CUDA.
        
           | DigitallyFidget wrote:
           | Because if I can rewrite my printer to not intentionally be a
           | total piece of shit, the company gets less money by
           | intentionally expiring or wasting ink, DRM locking ink
           | cartridge brands, or "service needed" bricking the device
           | after a period of time.
           | 
           | There's also the matter of lawsuits. If you get a device,
           | they're not supporting updates, so you go get a 3rd party
           | update and it ruins the device, the RMA costs the
           | manufacture, but worse, the customer(s) may file a (class
           | action) lawsuit against the company over the problem of being
           | unable to find the official firmware/driver updates, causing
           | people to ruin their hardware, get RMA rejections, or not
           | even being aware of an RMA process and simply buying another
           | one.
           | 
           | Personally, I'd rather there be open source drivers/firmware
           | for everything from day one, but to look at both sides, I
           | fully understand the liability and why that's something that
           | only exists in the hobbiest world.
        
             | saghm wrote:
             | >> Why is it not compulsory to release the source code from
             | day 1? If you're making a driver it's because you're
             | selling hardware, that's where your profit and value is.
             | Commingling the two leads to perverse incentives and
             | conflicts of interest.
             | 
             | > Because if I can rewrite my printer to not intentionally
             | be a total piece of shit, the company gets less money by
             | intentionally expiring or wasting ink, DRM locking ink
             | cartridge brands, or "service needed" bricking the device
             | after a period of time.
             | 
             | That sounds exactly like the "perverse incentives and
             | conflicts of interest" that the parent comment mentioned. I
             | don't think they're asking why it isn't required now, but
             | why it _shouldn't_ be required. What you're saying sounds
             | more compelling as an argument in favor of what they
             | propose, not in favor of the status quo.
        
             | bobsmith432 wrote:
             | The company can create a way to void the warranty or not
             | take responsibility and leave it to you if 3rd party
             | modifications or drivers are used, but not outright prevent
             | them and make them a pain to the users. Something like how
             | Android ROMs and rooting used to be.
        
           | Cheetah26 wrote:
           | I think the ideal solution here would be if companies were
           | required to ship an open source driver, and then optionally
           | offer a proprietary driver for an extra fee which includes
           | whatever 'special sauce' (as another comment put it) that
           | they don't want to release.
           | 
           | The example I'm thinking of is Nvidia's newer GPUs and DLSS.
           | The hardware would come with open drivers, but if you want
           | the upscaling that's an additional fee. While maintaining
           | additional drivers is more work for companies, I think they'd
           | actually benefit from this because it could be a recurring
           | revenue stream for older hardware.
        
         | sho_hn wrote:
         | If you're interested in actually making this a reality, I
         | recommend in engaging in your country's environmental policy
         | community -- and bringing a lot of patience.
         | 
         | Over at KDE we've some something in that direction - we've
         | worked with the German federal environment ministry on
         | extending the criteria for Germany's Blue Angel environmental
         | label with rules for software products. The resulting criteria
         | include language about what's needed to keep old hardware
         | running and useful (as unnecessary HW replacement spikes the
         | environmental footprint); including using open source to enable
         | the required maintenance.
         | 
         | Eventually, this will have an effect, e.g. when government
         | procurement rounds require bidders to achieve this label, and
         | others start aligning with government practice.
         | 
         | https://eco.kde.org/
        
         | userbinator wrote:
         | I bought an unbranded drawing tablet a long time ago from a
         | small Chinese company on Alibaba. The driver CD came with
         | source code for the (Windows 3.11 and 9x) driver and
         | configuration utility as well as a PDF describing the interface
         | protocol (which used the serial port). I was pleasantly
         | surprised but then realised that they likely did that because
         | they only cared about selling the hardware and hadn't thought
         | about wanting other user-hostile revenue streams (yet).
         | 
         | I would be fine without open sourcing drivers, but just
         | releasing documentation (and perhaps fragments of demo code)
         | but I suspect a lot of companies are reluctant to do either
         | because they believe there is some secret sauce in the
         | software. Otherwise they'd be more interested in outsourcing to
         | the "community" to do the work for them for free.
        
           | usefulcat wrote:
           | > I would be fine without open sourcing drivers, but just
           | releasing documentation
           | 
           | The problem with that is that it's far too easy for the
           | 'documentation' to be incomplete, and in non-obvious ways.
           | 
           | OTOH if they release incomplete source code it will likely be
           | much more obvious (e.g. 'foo() calls bar() but bar() does not
           | exist anywhere in the codebase, wtf').
        
         | cyanydeez wrote:
         | capitalism requires the oil of planned obscelescence where
         | available. when not available, just good old conspicuous
         | consumption will do.
         | 
         | of course society needs regulations like dolphins need oxygen
        
           | robertlagrant wrote:
           | Good point. This is why you see just as many 25 year old
           | Ladas as BMWs.
        
         | sandworm101 wrote:
         | >> it'd be so good for consumers and make hardware last a lot
         | longer.
         | 
         | Which is why hardware manufacturers will fight tooth and claw
         | to prevent such a thing. They don't want you to keep using old
         | hardware. They want you to keep buying new stuff. If the
         | hardware isn't going to break, then a failure of software will
         | do.
        
         | thomastjeffery wrote:
         | The larger problem is that drivers are written by hardware
         | manufacturers.
         | 
         | This is the perverse incentive: driver optimizations present
         | competitive value to manufacturers, so manufacturers keep
         | drivers secret in order to monopolize that value.
         | 
         | The problem is that by monopolizing their driver, the
         | manufacturer also monopolizes the _responsibility_ of driver
         | creation, compatibility, security, and maintenance. This doesn
         | 't just prevent competition from other manufacturers: it
         | prevents collaboration with anyone else.
         | 
         | There is nothing to incentivize a manufacturer to actually
         | uphold the responsibility that they have monopolized. It's
         | actually the opposite: monopolized responsibility is an
         | opportunity to implement planned obselescence.
         | 
         | The purpose of copyright and patent monopoly is to incentivize
         | knowledge sharing. In this case, the opposite is true. If we
         | want drivers to be maintainable, then we have 2 options:
         | 
         | 1. Require all drivers to be open source.
         | 
         | 2. Break up the vertical integration of in-house driver
         | development.
         | 
         | I vote we do both.
        
           | robertlagrant wrote:
           | How would 2 work? I make some hardware, but have to hope that
           | someone else will start a company to create a driver for it?
        
             | dylan604 wrote:
             | Yeah, that doesn't make sense. "We're pleased to announce
             | the release of our amazing new hardware that we can't wait
             | to see what people will do with it. No, really. Please,
             | someone do something with it. We're not allowed to do
             | anything other than make it. Please, justify our existence.
             | However, if someone says the hardware is inadequate, that
             | would just be their excuse for making inadequate software,
             | and in no way reflects the true potential of the device"
        
               | thomastjeffery wrote:
               | There is no need to wait until release. Go ahead and
               | publish a hardware spec during development. Go ahead and
               | commission a driver development company, and work closely
               | with them.
               | 
               | The only change is that driver development is allowed to
               | be a competitive market.
        
             | thomastjeffery wrote:
             | Yes. It would work the same way it works internally: create
             | a hardware spec, and answer questions from driver devs.
             | 
             | The only difference is that driver devs aren't working
             | exclusively for the manufacturer.
             | 
             | If you want an example of third-party driver development,
             | just take one look at Linux.
        
             | chx wrote:
             | Multiple someones, in fact.
             | 
             | Why not? Someone makes a faster driver, another makes say a
             | more power efficient one so the card is quieter. And yes it
             | vould cost money. You could compete on this thing. Once
             | upon a time there were competing commercial operation
             | systems. Can't see why GPU drivers couldn't compete.
        
         | rdsubhas wrote:
         | That could probably invite needless frivolous lawsuits
         | (IP/patent/copyright/license trolls) on various parts of the
         | source code.
        
         | justin66 wrote:
         | > drivers should be compulsory to open source 5 years after the
         | hardware is no longer sold
         | 
         | The ironic thing is that it would be legal for the manufacturer
         | to engineer the hardware to die before that date.
        
         | jacquesm wrote:
         | Yes, I agree. But in practice, this stuff is evolutionary to
         | the point that they'd simply keep a token amount of SKUs in
         | reserve that will never be _actually_ sold but that are
         | theoretically still available in order to be able to block that
         | compulsory order. Because if the competition gets direct
         | insight into how the previous generation looked they will be
         | able to make a much better stab at competing with the current
         | one.
         | 
         | So to solve this you'd have to mandate that they open source
         | all drivers right from when the goods are sold the first time
         | or commit to supporting devices for as long as there are viable
         | units out in the field or something like that. Again, not
         | likely to ever happen for obvious reasons.
        
           | conradfr wrote:
           | Let's just make it an arbitrary number of years after the
           | selling began then, like for patents.
        
         | Zambyte wrote:
         | > I think drivers should be compulsory to open source 5 years
         | after the hardware is no longer sold
         | 
         | This sounds like a reasonable first step towards the real
         | ideal, which would be to free the drivers from day 0.
        
         | ptek wrote:
         | That would be great. I'm annoyed that my fathers 10 year old
         | Cannon MG5100 series (printer, scanner) does not have a driver
         | for windows 11 :(, Now he has to buy a new one or transfer
         | files to his old Windows 10 laptop to print.
        
       | pmontra wrote:
       | So maybe my old laptop from 2006 will get a kernel with MESA
       | support for its old ATI x1600, which is based on R520.
       | 
       | I couldn't update it past some 3.x kernel because anything newer
       | would not draw the display or lose sync, I can't remember which
       | one. That happened about in 2013.
       | 
       | However the nail in the coffin was the 4GB limit on RAM and too
       | many VMs and containers.
        
       | superkuh wrote:
       | Maybe for some things. But AMD dropped support for compute (ROCm)
       | for it's RX 580 card after just under 4 years. And there are no
       | open source drivers for compute.
        
         | slavik81 wrote:
         | The open-source AMDGPU KFD driver in the Linux kernel supports
         | compute, including with the RX 580 (Polaris). It's true that
         | AMD dropped official support for that hardware and has been
         | closing Polaris-specific bugs as wont-fix. The last ROCm
         | release that AMD validated on Polaris hardware was ROCm 3.5
         | (June 2020).
         | 
         | I've packaged the test suites of the ROCm math libraries for
         | Debian Trixie and have personally donated a selection of Fiji
         | and Polaris hardware for the Debian AI Team's CI. It's beyond
         | my abilities to fix everything wrong on old hardware, but I'm
         | hoping that having publicly accessible test logs will at least
         | help people to understand what works and what doesn't.
         | 
         | Of course, it always helps if the community contributes. Debian
         | would certainly be interested in bug reports and patches for
         | Polaris. Users with hardware no longer supported by AMD may
         | find it easier to work with their distro package maintainers
         | than with AMD directly.
        
         | ColonelPhantom wrote:
         | > And there are no open source drivers for compute.
         | 
         | Well, technically ROCm is open source (although it comes across
         | more as a "dump source code releases every now and then" to
         | me.)
         | 
         | Also, the link is from the Mesa project, which is working on an
         | OpenCL frontend to the driver called rusticl. It's not yet
         | stable or enabled by default, but if you get a build of it, you
         | can try setting the environment variable
         | `RUSTICL_ENABLE=radeonsi` and it should sort-of work (on any
         | Radeon HD 7000 or Radeon R7/R9/RX GPU!)
         | 
         | iirc the rusticl developers are even hoping/planning to get HIP
         | (via chipStar) and SYCL (via Intel's compiler) working on top
         | of rusticl.
        
           | atq2119 wrote:
           | I mean, the HIP compiler is built on LLVM and AMD-specific
           | development happens directly upstream, which is more than you
           | can say for other vendors.
           | 
           | Other parts of the overall ROCm system are in a worse place,
           | admittedly. For some reason, AMD doesn't seem to understand
           | the principles of open development.
        
       | kijnh23uihUI3 wrote:
       | Microsoft also still sometimes provide updates for > 20 years old
       | Windows XP, while Apple stop providing security updates only
       | after a few years, which is a shame.
        
         | bobsmith432 wrote:
         | I never thought Mac OS releases were planned for longevity
         | after they started being free, more like point releases. You
         | were expected to upgrade and if you didn't, Apple doesn't care
         | if you had a valid reason to stay (PPC Rosetta, i386
         | compatibility), just upgrade. Windows releases on the other
         | hand can last up to 13 years and even longer, there are forums
         | for modern day XP users and even ports of modern browsers.
        
         | goalieca wrote:
         | Apple provides about 10 years on computers and 7 years on
         | devices. WindowsXP provided about 8 years of mainstream
         | support. They offered extended support to business for 13 years
         | for a premium but even that has expired. They will soon stop
         | supporting computers without tpm 2 on windows 11.
        
       | KronisLV wrote:
       | I recently had issues with AMD's RX580 GPU, where the latest
       | drivers would cause issues for me when trying to run VR games
       | with an Oculus Quest (either SteamVR or the Meta OpenXR
       | implementation). I'd play the game for about 10-40 minutes and
       | then it would crash, the drivers would reset, the screen would go
       | black in the middle for a bit and the OS would make an attempt to
       | recover (which didn't always work).
       | 
       | In the end, turns out that the version of AMD Software and their
       | included drivers from 2023 didn't work and I had to revert to an
       | older version. I ended up going for their 2020 AMD Pro drivers
       | and software because the card is from 2018 and the improvement
       | was immediate - I haven't had a single crash since, whereas
       | previously I could reproduce it 100% of the time, with only the
       | time before the crash varying. Note: this is on Windows 10, which
       | I boot into for gaming, though I actually like their AMD Software
       | which feels a bit better than CoreCtrl on Linux distros.
       | 
       | Some people suggested that 2022 drivers/software would also work,
       | but this is one of those cases where the hardware technically
       | gets updates, but they actually make things worse, perhaps
       | because the older hardware is not tested against as much,
       | especially with newer games and programs. I don't necessarily
       | expect anyone to care that much about hardware from 2018, it was
       | just an interesting case of things going wrong.
       | 
       | Overall, I like AMD because they're affordable (still running a
       | Ryzen 7 1700 CPU on my main workstation and it does everything I
       | need) and _decent_ , and perhaps the driver situation on Linux is
       | a bit better than Nvidia's, but then again I also like Intel's
       | attempts with Arc, except that Nvidia still wins out because of
       | CUDA for a lot of workloads (I never managed to get ROCm working
       | locally well for running LLM's and DKIM kicked my butt, needing
       | to compile stuff after every apt upgrade).
       | 
       | Oh well, here's hoping that we keep getting lots of options for
       | hardware, software and that the market competition stays alive
       | and well, so I can enjoy affordable last gen options with most of
       | the issues patched out a few years down the line as well, when I
       | decide to upgrade on the cheap. But also even in regards to
       | entertainment like gaming things are getting better thanks to
       | Proton. I look forwards to the day when I can 100% switch over to
       | Linux.
       | 
       | My homelab servers already run Debian/Ubuntu with AMDs 200GE
       | CPUs, which I got for dirt cheap and which have relatively low
       | TDP (35W) while still giving me access to x86, which I can
       | passively cool.
        
       | elzbardico wrote:
       | What I think incredible, is that 20 years CPUs may not be able to
       | run the latest client software but are still powerful enough for
       | a lot of tasks. You probably don't need anything more fancy than
       | this to a lot of industrial machinery for example.
        
         | google234123 wrote:
         | Or you could use a arm chip that consumes 100 times less power
        
       | M95D wrote:
       | 22 year old GPU support improved. Good. Very good! Now, how about
       | making mesa not freeze the driver, crash and panic the kernel on
       | just 10 year old gpus?
       | 
       | https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=85421
        
         | anthk wrote:
         | By just using EXA instead of Glamor it just works.
        
       | badsectoracula wrote:
       | From the comment, it seems to also improve R500, which is ATI's
       | X1000 series. I have an Athlon64 with a X1950 Pro (i bought that
       | PC in late 2003, it had a GeForceFX but later upgraded it to the
       | X1950 Pro) and i planned on trying Linux and see how it performs.
        
         | ColonelPhantom wrote:
         | Yeah, just like the R600 driver supports HD 2000 through HD
         | 6000 hardware ('Terascale'), basically any Radeon HD except HD
         | 7000. And radeonsi originally meant "Southern Islands" aka HD
         | 7000 (and parts of the Rx 200/Rx 300 lineup) but it works on
         | all GCN and RDNA cards.
        
       | anigbrowl wrote:
       | An odd thing to me about the GPU space is how rapidly many ML
       | libraries that rely on CUDA deprecate earlier versions. Two years
       | ago I bought a used workstation laptop with (iirc) a Kepler GPU,
       | and I was surprised to find that virtually none of the popular
       | Python libraries would run on it. I spent a whole day stepping
       | back through earlier library versions which of course created
       | other kinds of dependency problems before giving up in favor of
       | an external GPU.
       | 
       | I wasn't trying to do anything difficult, I was literally at the
       | 'hello GPU world' stage and wanting to try out some very basic
       | exercises from books. Can't help feeling that Nvidia is doing a
       | lot of the groundwork with CUDA and some library maintainers are
       | just surfing on it.
        
         | dist-epoch wrote:
         | That's because newer GPUs support newer instructions sets.
         | 
         | Like AVX, AVX2, AVX512, but basically a new set every year
         | instead of every 10 years like in CPU land.
         | 
         | And it's not just about speed, they provide new functionality.
         | So at some point supporting older GPUs significantly slows down
         | those who have the newer GPUs.
         | 
         | The next architecture after Kepler, Pascal, added huge new
         | capabilities, that's why nobody supports Kepler anymore, it's
         | too limited.
         | 
         | > wanting to try out some very basic exercises
         | 
         | Should be possible to do that with an older Python (3.5?) and
         | associated libraries. Versions around 2016 should work.
        
           | rahimnathwani wrote:
           | I seem to recall ~6 years ago I had to recompile an ML
           | library because my CPU didn't support AVX2. So even though
           | the release binaries required AVX2, the source code was
           | written in a way that it could work without it.
           | 
           | I wonder whether this required specific effort by the
           | developers of that library, or whether it was taken care of
           | by some underlying tooling? Can you write CUDA code today
           | that uses the latest features but can be compiled for older
           | cards as well?
        
         | google234123 wrote:
         | Deprecating support for a 10-12 year old gpu doesn't seem rapid
         | to me
        
       | andrewstuart wrote:
       | What are the facts about how long AMD provides drivers for?
       | 
       | Nvidia provide drivers for what feels like a VERY long time.
       | 
       | I have the feeling that AMD gives up on providing drivers after
       | only a few years of product life.
       | 
       | But these are only hunches, anyone know the facts?
        
       | apsec112 wrote:
       | I am... confused? My old PC has an X1800 XT, which is
       | significantly more recent than that, and the Linux driver hasn't
       | been updated since 2009. I don't think that driver even works
       | with modern X.Org or Linux kernels. Could someone tell me if I'm
       | missing something? Would be very happy to be able to run this
       | card at full resolution, instead of having to use a generic VGA
       | driver.
       | 
       | https://www.amd.com/en/support/graphics/legacy-graphics/ati-...
        
         | zamadatix wrote:
         | Your link is for the proprietary driver, this link is for the
         | open source driver (not AMD themselves providing updates).
         | X1800 XT is R500 so should be supported by the open radeon
         | driver just fine, including output and modesetting
         | https://www.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature/
        
       | SubiculumCode wrote:
       | AMD is a showcase for why competition is good for consumers. I
       | have little doubt that had AMD spent the last 30 years as the pc
       | chip leader, it would have turned to all the exploitive and anti-
       | consumer practices of intel and nvidia.
       | 
       | Dominant market leaders tend to lock down their position, while
       | those who are not, must innovate and build relationships with
       | consumers by other means, including support, or open drivers. I'm
       | just riffing, but it seems to me a reoccurring theme, and one
       | fresh in my mind as I try to migrate from Windows to Ubuntu
       | Budgie, but their lock down of Office and Windows means I must
       | run an unwieldy full VM.
        
       | mugivarra69 wrote:
       | alex deutcher. google it.
        
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