[HN Gopher] An untold story of LSD psychotherapy in communist cz...
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An untold story of LSD psychotherapy in communist czechoslovakia
Author : anarbadalov
Score : 89 points
Date : 2024-01-02 14:43 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (thereader.mitpress.mit.edu)
(TXT) w3m dump (thereader.mitpress.mit.edu)
| morbicer wrote:
| There's a bizarre and partly funny short document about LSD test
| in Czechoslovak army. Sadly no English subs although I am
| considering running it through Whisper and translating it
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HXMHdhQL_8&pp=ygURbHNkIGluI...
|
| On a more serious note, it's a shame that the psychotherapy
| research was stopped.
|
| Another article from Maps https://maps.org/news-
| letters/v17n1/lsd_in_prague-long_term_...
| labrador wrote:
| I've successfully done self-therapy using nitrous oxide,
| psilocybin, 5-MeO-DMT and LSD, most recently to come to terms
| with my difficult father to forgive him. My problem with the
| current push for this type of therapy is the requirment that it
| be done by professionals charging hundreds or thousands of
| dollars. One must never mention "self-therapy" because that might
| scare legislatures into keeping these drugs illegal. I remain
| resistant to this insertion of the state into what should be my
| right to use my own mind the way I see fit.
| UberFly wrote:
| Do you feel that including drugs in the therapy was a benefit
| over more common dialog-type therapy? If so how was it
| different?
| radicaldreamer wrote:
| I'm curious about this as well, a lot of studies have shown
| that psychedelic therapy is most effective when bracketed by
| talk therapy -- the brain plasticity (or anti-inflammatory
| effects, the jury is still out) induced by psychedelics open
| the mind to the suggestions of talk therapy and that without
| talk therapy (or some kind of self dialogue perhaps?)
| psychedelics are not as effective.
| labrador wrote:
| There's a ton of free lectures on psychedelics and therapy.
| Ram Dass aka Richard Alpert comes to mind. Stanislav Grof
| is another. I can't afford to see a therapist anymore, but
| maybe going right to the source for free is better. I do a
| lot of writing too. Actually at this point I'd be surprised
| if I got any benefit out of doing a trip with a psychedelic
| therapist.
| beenBoutIT wrote:
| The studies are designed this way to keep the shaman in the
| equation when the drugs become treatments. Informal polling
| over decades shows MDMA is pretty impressive on its own.
|
| We need a clinical study where a group of veterans with
| PTSD is given MDMA and an isolated quiet place to go for
| several hours. Each of them is told they're receiving a
| drug that cures PTSD. The placebo effect paired with the
| brain rewiring effect of MDMA will cure more people than
| any other method and demonstrate that the effect is self-
| contained.
| OkayPhysicist wrote:
| I'd take the bet that MDMA + talk therapy is more
| effective than MDMA alone, based on the theory of action
| that recollection is not a read-only operation in the
| brain, and traumatic memories remain as such in no small
| part due to the intense negative emotions experienced
| when recalling them. By forcing/encouraging recollection
| of traumatic memories, while subduing the negative
| emotions with MDMA, the connection between those strong
| negative emotions and the memories are weakened.
|
| Basically, the MDMA subdues the negative emotions, and
| the talk therapy forces recollection. Without the latter,
| you just have a pleasant trip, but I highly doubt real
| progress would be made against the trauma.
| matrix87 wrote:
| > and that without talk therapy (or some kind of self
| dialogue perhaps?) psychedelics are not as effective.
|
| Probably because there aren't any people there looking for
| specific boxes to check
|
| Doing this in front of one of them is a horrible idea
| because it all gets documented. That's not a very relaxing
| environment tbh, it isn't a relationship where you are both
| on equal footing
|
| And this all gets exacerbated if the therapist has their
| own issues that you aren't aware of
| labrador wrote:
| Oh yes, nitrous oxide for example lets me surface and
| approach traumatic events without over-whelming anxiety that
| blocks the memory out. I've done years of talk therapy
| without drugs and the problem is that it's hard to let go of
| my ego personality when I'm talking to another person and it
| also takes a long time to get a therapist up to speed about
| what is going on with me internally, because I don't often
| even know. I did MDMA therapy with an alternative/underground
| therapist in the 90's and didn't get much out of it because
| it felt like the experience conformed to her expectations. I
| didn't feel free to let my mind wander.
|
| I'm not knocking dialog-type therapy or psychedelic therapy,
| but maybe I'm built different and as a computer programmer
| figured out how to use these drugs to debug myself.
| UberFly wrote:
| Thank you - great info. Hope you keep making progress.
| zozbot234 wrote:
| > it's hard to let go of my ego
|
| This is what mindfulness meditation is best for. Drugs are
| just a cop out.
| carpo wrote:
| Why does it matter how someone achieves this? If it helps
| them and doesn't hurt anyone else, your view on the
| "correct" way to achieve it is really only you virtue
| signalling.
| OkayPhysicist wrote:
| "Drugs are just a cop out" sounds like a massive ego
| talking. A tool is a tool, and there's no shame in using
| powerful tools to achieve a goal. Sometimes our goals
| might be to overcome a challenge with sub-par tools, like
| climbing Everest without supplemental oxygen, but most of
| the time our goals are simply the accomplishment in of
| itself, utilizing whatever tools we have available.
| littlestymaar wrote:
| > My problem with the current push for this type of therapy is
| the requirment that it be done by professionals charging
| hundreds or thousands of dollars. [...] I remain resistant to
| this insertion of the state into what should be my right to use
| my own mind the way I see fit.
|
| It's kind of sad to see that the anti-state libertarian
| propaganda is working so well: the problem at stake here is not
| "too much state", it's that you don't have universal healthcare
| to pay for these professional bills and keep the rate these
| guys charge at a decent level.
|
| Nobody should be forced to do their own research and risk their
| health just because therapists are unaffordable.
| throwaway59609 wrote:
| I live in a state with universal healthcare through mandatory
| insurance that's 30% of my income. Guess what? The state
| doesn't recognize this kind of therapy, and the insurance
| pays out only for whatever the state recognizes (and there is
| no free market of healthcare insurance), so I have to pay
| _everything_ out of my pocket. And it costs the equivalent of
| hundreds of thousands of dollars.
|
| That's alright, that's new experimental therapy and it will
| improve, you might say. Well, they don't even pay anything
| for my ADHD treatment because the state says adults can't
| have it, it's children's disease. That's what I get for 30%
| of my income - nothing.
|
| The antistate libertarian "propaganda" is working so well
| because it's not propaganda but the only way to get
| treatment. At least they let me pay for the drugs myself, I'd
| probably kill myself if I couldn't get them just because the
| state said so.
| littlestymaar wrote:
| First of all, you're moving the goalpost since the
| conversation was about the _cost of professionals_ , not
| the availability of treatment.
|
| > The antistate libertarian "propaganda" is working so well
| because it's not propaganda but the only way to get
| treatment. At least they let me pay for the drugs myself,
| I'd probably kill myself if I couldn't get them just
| because the state said so.
|
| It only works for the very small fraction that can pay "he
| equivalent of hundreds of thousands of dollars" worth of
| treatment, which means that for pretty much everyone it's
| literally as if state said that they cannot get them! In
| the richest country in the world, some people can't even
| afford drugs that are decades old, call that a way to get
| treatment.
| throwaway59609 wrote:
| Yes, indeed. So what's your suggestion? Nobody should get
| it? Same with the ADHD treatment too? That's also
| unavailable to many due to the prices - I pay $100/month
| for the drugs I desperately need, that's 10% or more of
| income for at least 30% of the local population where I
| live.
| littlestymaar wrote:
| > Yes, indeed. So what's your suggestion? Nobody should
| get it? Same with the ADHD treatment too?
|
| No, quite the opposite: everyone should get it, and to
| get there the affluent should use their money to help
| this cause, not sidestep the problem for themselves and
| be fine with the status quo not moving for the commoners.
| throwaway59609 wrote:
| The affluent are a very, very minor group here. The state
| policy is not in any way controlled by them. It's the
| "commoners" and the populist socialist parties they vote
| for (that have way over 30% of the parliament and lead
| the government) who want to and do preserve the status
| quo even though it's actually bad for them. They label
| the affluent ones, who indeed would like exactly what
| you're suggesting, as dangerous liberals that will
| destroy the traditional values of this country.
|
| ADHD is a classic example, it's actually being discussed
| in the media right now - the drugs and therapy are
| labeled as one of the dangerous liberal ideas, the
| mainstream suggestion is stricter parenting, which of
| course includes beating the children - that's a
| traditional value here as well ("we survived it, they
| will survive it too", right?).
|
| My suggestion to Americans - don't let the "commoners"
| use the state to capture your healthcare like it happened
| here. Countries like ours need you to develop new
| treatments. System like ours will never produce anything
| and will never move forward without your example. If you
| adopt this kind of system, the world is fucked.
| drugstherapy wrote:
| Not OP, but personally I have no problem with people going to
| licensed therapists to do psychedelic assisted therapy if
| that's what they feel comfortable with. What I would take
| issue with is if that becomes the only way to access
| something like LSD legally.
|
| I've only ever taken psychedelics on my own, and while I've
| done regular talk therapy, I don't think I'd want that
| experience with a therapist. Taking 100-150ug of LSD at my
| house while listening to music, meditating, and practicing
| yoga should be available legally to me if I choose it. It's
| completely transformed my life for the better.
| cyberax wrote:
| > One must never mention "self-therapy" because that might
| scare legislatures into keeping these drugs illegal.
|
| That's because it's dangerous. Even good old weed can provoke
| psychosis, never mind LSD and mushrooms. Case in point:
| https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/off-duty-...
|
| LSD, ketamine, and other chemicals seem to be working for some
| people. But it doesn't mean that they're completely _safe_.
| chimeracoder wrote:
| > That's because it's dangerous. Even good old weed can
| provoke psychosis, never mind LSD and mushrooms. Case in
| point: https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-
| defense/off-duty-... > > LSD, ketamine, and other chemicals
| seem to be working for some people. But it doesn't mean that
| they're completely _safe_.
|
| Nobody should ever be getting behind the wheel of a car, let
| alone the cockpit of a plane, if they have not slept in 40+
| hours.
|
| There are lots of things that went wrong in that story, at
| multiple points. Using it to conclude that drugs are
| categorically unsafe, and therefore should be criminalized,
| is the wrong takeaway.
| ThinkBeat wrote:
| This is something that would quite easily kill other people who
| ventured into it.
|
| Recommending it is not a safe and good idea.
|
| At the most elemental level How can a person obtain medical
| grade pure LSD?
|
| Further people have widely different reactions to the drugs
| mentioned, Making it into a cocktail is a recipe for disaster.
| Perhaps not for you, and perhaps not for a few others but the
| odds are against anyone who gives it a try.
|
| Our current level of technology cannot even predict how a
| single person will react to one of our many anti-depressants.
| Here try this for a while.
|
| " Dont like, doesn't work, lets try a different one. " (repeat
| until something works or you run out of drugs).
|
| I am not advocating anti-depressants over the drugs you mention
| above necessarily. I have some faith that progress can be made
| in the realm of chemistry and medicine there.
|
| I am saying dont do this on your own kids.
|
| There are some that clean you can have great insights, magical
| experiences and some orgasm if you choke yourself nearly to
| death. Not quite death, just before.
|
| Given the cocktail above, self-administered controlled
| strangulation might be safer.
| matrix87 wrote:
| How was 5-MeO compared to the other two?
| FredPret wrote:
| And if you screw this extremely delicate self-administered
| chemical mind alteration up, the rest of us have to foot the
| bill for the resulting care / homelessnes / crime.
|
| I'm a huge free marketeer, but a minimal amount of regulation
| really goes a very long way to improving outcomes.
|
| Plus, you don't get a second chance fixing your own brain.
| mrangle wrote:
| Perception of psychotherapeutic progress does not equal progress.
| Anyone can convince themselves of almost anything, for any number
| of reasons. Including convicning themselves of a therapeutic
| effect.
|
| Conversely, "therapeutic" processing of trauma often occurs
| subconsciously. Such as during sleep, and arguably more so as
| sleep quality improves.
|
| Instead of looking for benefit, at least for now, the
| concentration should be on an assessment of harm. Only in that
| context will a future study on possible benefit be informative.
| jakubmazanec wrote:
| > Anyone can convince themselves of almost anything, for any
| number of reasons. Including convicning themselves of a
| therapeutic effect.
|
| This is a weird take. If a person is suicidal, and "convinces
| himself" (whatever that actually means in the context of the
| therapy) to not kill themself, this is therapeutic effect by
| definition.
| zdragnar wrote:
| I agree that it is a weird take, but your analogy is off.
|
| The actual therapeutic effect would be stopping suicidal
| ideation, not a single instance of suicidal behavior. A
| person may continue to suffer whatever ill effects that were
| pushing them to suicide but (temporarily) reconsider the
| action itself.
|
| On the one hand, nobody can "fix" you; you need to
| internalize different ways of thinking and build emotional
| resilience. Drugs may help this process, or help maintain it,
| but they're not a cure, and neither is talk therapy. It is,
| in a sense, a matter of convincing yourself.
|
| On the other hand, most people- even very introspective
| people- will struggle with self-therapy. It isn't as easy as
| "today I am happy".
| gustavus wrote:
| I've been noticing when I was growing up weed was in fact the
| cure to all problems people had depression, anxiety, anger
| issues? "Smoke a joint man it makes everything okay." People were
| out there claiming weed cured cancer, that the whole reason weed
| wasn't legal is because the evil pharmaceutical industrial
| complex didn't want people to do it because it would cure all
| their problems, that weed had absolutely no bad side effects and
| if everyone was just puffing all day all their problems would go
| away, etc. etc. Well weed became legal in most places and
| research started being done and it turns out weed didn't cure
| everyone's problems, weed does have side-effects and risks with
| using it, especially if you smoke or vape it, and it isn't the
| magical silver bullet to all mental health issues.
|
| I feel like I am seeing the same cycle happen again with
| psychedelics, especially shrooms and LSD.
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