[HN Gopher] ScummVM on the App Store
___________________________________________________________________
ScummVM on the App Store
Author : galapago
Score : 195 points
Date : 2023-12-30 15:37 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (apps.apple.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (apps.apple.com)
| m463 wrote:
| hmmm I suspect this is because it is GPLv2 which doesn't require
| the freedom to RUN the program (which apple doesn't give you)
|
| apple seems to ship software with gplv2 (old bash, etc) but no
| GPLv3 software.
|
| ...even though they are technically in violation of the GPL by
| modifying and shipping bash binaries without full source - it is
| missing rootless.h (not the X11 file)
| rafram wrote:
| GPLv3's anti-Tivoization clause specifically targets software
| bundled with a device, which this is not. There's plenty of
| GPLv3 software distributed by its developers on the App Store
| and nothing in the text of the GPL forbids distribution in a
| proprietary marketplace.
| gunapologist99 wrote:
| In that case, I wonder why Google is so highly allergic to
| GPLv3 in its GCP marketplace.
| jraph wrote:
| Is it GPLv3 or AGPL?
|
| Their reasons (their excuses? At this point I'm not
| convinced at all) to ban AGPL are documented at [1].
|
| [1] https://opensource.google/documentation/reference/using
| /agpl...
| orangecat wrote:
| What doesn't make sense? They don't want AGPL code to
| accidentally end up anywhere that's publicly accessible,
| and a lot of the code in their monolith is used across
| many different products, so a blanket ban seems entirely
| reasonable.
|
| What motivation do you think they have to lie about this?
| jraph wrote:
| Not speaking about code, they ban _use_ of AGPL software.
| This does not make sense to me.
|
| Software you _use_ does not magically [1] end up in your
| code base, or you are doing something horribly wrong, I
| can 't even begin to imagine how. Like, "Whoops, I
| downloaded and executed this AGPL-licensed binary, and
| now this Google process running on my laptop (or
| _phone_!) has automatically fetched its source code and
| put it to prod and linked it to our software, and now oh
| no, all our code are belong to GNU! ". This is
| ridiculous. This is some massive, solid bullshit we have
| here.
|
| You can use AGPL software for any purpose within the law,
| _no strings attached_. You never need to touch the code,
| and if you do, you never need to link your product to it.
| It does not take a lawyer to understand this simple
| concept. Proprietary software have more restrictions than
| that, you 'd better not have third party proprietary code
| ending up in your product, although it's not banned at
| Google. I hope they do check license compliance on their
| code base anyway, there are automatic scanners for this.
| So the chances of some AGPL code ending in their
| repositories seem vanishingly small.
|
| As for why Google would be dishonest, of course we have
| no proof and we can't know for sure AFAIK. By default I
| side with Drew DeVault [2], to me this is anti-AGPL
| propaganda and their goal is to discourage people from
| licensing their software under AGPL so they have a bigger
| pool of open source projects they can potentially reuse
| without having to contribute back, and it works because
| now people are afraid to license their stuff under AGPL
| because "businesses" "often" have an AGPL ban. I know of
| exactly two companies banning AGPL: Google and Apple.
| Apple already did that with GPLv3 (AGPLv3 being GPLv3 + a
| clause). Again, does please the big company (and come on,
| outdated bash and GNU tools on Mac does not make any kind
| of sense, the GPL never restricted stuff at the process
| level interface). I'm sure there are smaller businesses
| thinking that if Google and Apple ban those licenses,
| they must be bad and they should do too to be safe, while
| not having a business model where it even makes sense,
| playing Google and Apple's game.
|
| If I'm to license software under AGPL, I'm giving Google
| the right to use this software. That they don't want to
| use it is their loss. They are doing this to themselves.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking
|
| [2] https://drewdevault.com/2020/07/27/Anti-AGPL-
| propaganda.html
|
| > they want to discourage people from using the AGPL,
| because they cannot productize such software effectively
| [...]
|
| > By discouraging the use of AGPL in the broader
| community, Google hopes to create a larger set of free-
| and open-source software that they can take for their own
| needs without any obligations to upstream
| m463 wrote:
| hmmm. I thought that software loaded on an apple device is
| DRM'd, meaning it cannot be installed or run without an apple
| id (basically you must ask apple permission to run the
| program).
|
| GPLv2 didn't prevent this, but I thought GPLv3 conferred
| additional rights to the user.
|
| I remember RMS saying, "I realized I had to explicitly say
| the freedom to RUN the program" I believe about revising
| GPLv2 to GPLv3
| jraph wrote:
| > GPLv2 which doesn't require the freedom to RUN the program
|
| It does. This is the first freedom of free software. I'm not
| sure the issues with distributing GPL software on the App store
| are specific to the GPLv3. I don't fully understand things on
| this, but [1] seems to be a good entry point.
|
| > apple seems to ship software with gplv2 (old bash, etc) but
| no GPLv3 software.
|
| This is an Apple policy / a choice that they make. They could
| decide to distribute GPLv3 software with Mac legally, but chose
| not to.
|
| > by modifying and shipping bash binaries without full source -
| it is missing rootless.h (not the X11 file)
|
| I would be interested in knowing more about this. I'm surprised
| they've not been already sued if they violate bash's license.
|
| [1] https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/9500/is-
| apple...
| saagarjha wrote:
| Sued by whom? The bash people seem like they have better
| things to do than sue Apple.
| jraph wrote:
| The Free Software Foundation.
|
| Bash is part of the GNU project. As a consequence, I
| believe contributors assign their copyright to the FSF. I
| downloaded a random release of bash 3 (3.0.16) and opened a
| random C file from it and it is indeed "Copyright (C)
| 1993-2004 Free Software Foundation, Inc."
|
| I appreciate that individual developers might not have the
| time & energy to engage in a lawsuit against Apple, but the
| FSF is bigger, and has all the incentive to be firm with
| the terms of the GPL licenses for the licenses to look
| strong. Developers can also certainly request help from the
| Software Freedom Conservancy [1] or the Software Freedom
| Law Center [2] (which has helped BusyBox win several
| lawsuits) for this kind of stuff. Apparently the SFLC has
| helped the FSF in the past, against Cisco, if I'm to
| believe [2].
|
| [1] https://sfconservancy.org/
|
| [2]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Freedom_Law_Center
| m463 wrote:
| > It does. This is the first freedom of free software.
|
| I don't think so:
|
| _The Free Software Foundation explicitly forbade tivoization
| in version 3 of the GNU General Public License._
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tivoization
|
| I think this is one of the reasons GPLv3 came along.
| jraph wrote:
| Forbidding tivoization does not forbid running the program,
| it forbids embedding the program in some piece of hardware
| and then not providing a means for the end user to run
| their own modified version on this same hardware. If a TV
| is to use some GPLv3 program, then it must allow the user
| to replace the program with their own version.
|
| And yes, tivoization is a major reason why GPLv3 was
| written indeed, it was seen as a loophole to fix by the
| FSF.
| xmodem wrote:
| It's been a hot minute since I had to dig into the code Apple
| publishes for anything and since then they seem to have moved
| it all to Github. I don't have my mac handy to try building it,
| but I don't see any references to a rootless.h in the code
| they're publishing. I'm curious to know a bit more about what's
| missing.
| saagarjha wrote:
| They inlined the code here: https://github.com/apple-oss-
| distributions/bash/commit/9817a...
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| That would be perfectly legal under the GPL, right?
|
| It doesn't say you're not allowed to modify the code, just
| that you have to distribute the modified code in its
| entirety. If what Apple is distributing is sufficient to
| build (their version of) bash, it's perfectly fine.
| saagarjha wrote:
| If the code is what Apple used to build what they're
| distributing, then yes this is valid. (For this case at
| least, they have a tendency of doing this a lot and I
| suspect the change to bash was made just to address this
| specific complaint while missing every other place they
| strip out code.)
| m463 wrote:
| I tried to rebuild bash a while back on macos and
| couldn't do it because the source code was not available
| for rootless.h. I guess someones complaint finally got
| some action from apple.
|
| I remember doing macos kernel debugging (in the non-gpl
| code apple distributes) and it was pretty evident that
| the code they distribute like xnu is NOT the code that is
| in the OS. Stack traces had lots of functions apple keeps
| to itself. Looking in the distributed code shows
| suspicious blank lines where automated tools must remove
| apple-only source.
| saagarjha wrote:
| Yes, XNU is missing a lot of stuff. But it's not (L)GPL,
| so it's not really required for them to provide that
| code.
| Ecco wrote:
| Curious as to why it took so long. Anybody around knows?
| peddling-brink wrote:
| I'm surprised it's allowed at all. To my knowledge, Apple has
| never allowed general purpose virtualization software.
| madmoose wrote:
| There's no general purpose virtualization involved in
| ScummVM. It's a collection of game engines derived mostly
| from reverse engineering old games.
| peddling-brink wrote:
| Oh, well I stand corrected.
| amlib wrote:
| Isn't Apple very restrictive about apps that allow running
| arbitrary code like emulators? I'm also a bit perplexed, unless
| they have changed their policy recently.
| dangus wrote:
| I wonder if it was determined that the code isn't arbitrary,
| and nothing is being emulated. It's more like a content
| engine.
|
| Perhaps ScummVM is closer in concept to something like Super
| Mario Maker than to a full blown programming environment. You
| could argue that the custom content is "code" but it's more
| like a limited set of actions accompanied with content.
| lxgr wrote:
| That ship has long sailed. There's an x86 Linux user space
| emulator capable of running unmodified Alpine Linux, a shell
| running WASM/WASI binaries...
|
| It seems like the current bar is something like "can it
| plausibly run something other than pirated Nintendo ROMs".
| simonw wrote:
| What's that x86 Linux emulator app?
| Exonym wrote:
| [iSH](https://ish.app).
| haunter wrote:
| a-shell
|
| https://holzschu.github.io/a-Shell_iOS/
| lxgr wrote:
| That one runs WASM binaries interfacing (via WASI) with
| the native iOS AArch64 environment and some clever built-
| in bindings that make iOS look not entirely unlike a
| normal POSIX.
|
| Very impressive (and faster than emulation, since WASM
| can be JIT compiled by iOS!), but not Linux :)
| wk_end wrote:
| It's got interpreters that lets it execute arbitrary (?) code,
| which I thought was verboten. TBH I'm not sure how this got
| through Apple's censors...?
| madmoose wrote:
| Most game engines have scripting languages built in.
| wk_end wrote:
| Yes, but those game engines are - on iOS especially -
| locked in to running bundled scripts that drive the
| specific game you've purchased from the App Store. ScummVM
| is running externally provided scripts.
| truegoric wrote:
| I'd say it's curious it happened at all. As others have
| mentioned Apple doesn't allow emulators at all in their store,
| perhaps they are afraid of losing too much of the market after
| EU forces them to allow side-loading?
|
| EDIT: I just checked the App Store listing for this app - I
| find it pretty hilarious (and for more than one reason) that
| it's listed in the Adventure category which has a pirate flag
| for an icon.
| simonw wrote:
| I wonder if this is a case of an individual AppStore reviewer
| not actually understanding what the thing they are reviewing
| does.
| DaiPlusPlus wrote:
| I understand that new app launches need approval by someone
| who actually knows the rules, whereas new updates for
| already-published apps are run-by the rank-and-file
| reviewers.
| saagarjha wrote:
| This isn't necessarily true.
| madmoose wrote:
| ScummVM isn't an emulator, it's a collection of game engines
| based on reverse engineering and, on occasion, original
| source code donations.
| truegoric wrote:
| I stand corrected, although from a policy-making
| perspective ScummVM allows users to run software acquired
| through ways not sanctioned by Apple (or owners of the
| original IPs), which I believe is the major part of why
| emulators are not allowed on App Store and thus bears a
| similarity to them in that particular aspect.
| karolist wrote:
| Is there any philosophical difference in playing your
| game using ScummVM versus playing a JavaScript game on
| some website using Safari for iOS?
| geraldwhen wrote:
| Since there are literal emulators written in JavaScript,
| the answer must be no.
| wk_end wrote:
| Apple controls the JS sandbox in Safari, whereas they
| don't control the ScummVM scripting sandbox. In theory
| it'd allow the execution of arbitrary scripts that can do
| anything native code can do, although I don't know -
| maybe ScummVM checksums the games you load into it and
| will only run code it recognizes (and if so, maybe that's
| why it's allowed).
| myko wrote:
| It's trivial to purchase the games legally on GOG & Steam
| so this does not seem particularly relevant
| adrianN wrote:
| Is there a place where I can legally obtain images to run on the
| vm?
| sspiff wrote:
| Steam. I bought a ton of these on Steam and just copied the
| data files over to my sons tablet. Works perfectly, including
| localisation.
| toasteros wrote:
| To add to this, the commercially available versions of the
| first two Monkey Island games are not ScummVM compatible
| without some hackery. The games are perfectly playable,
| indeed, but a lot of people don't have much fondness for the
| visual style choices.
|
| Luckily, the original game data files are included in the
| homogeneous .pak files for the games, and Monkey Island
| Explorer[0] can unpack them.
|
| For both games the files are MONKEY.000 and MONKEY.001
| (MONKEY2.00{0,1} for Monkey 2) and the explorer program can
| filter for file types making it easy. Just unpack them, add
| to ScummVM and away you go.
|
| Caveat is that these are the CD versions of the games. The
| Secret of Monkey Island was actually "remastered" previously!
| The colour palette is altered slightly and the UI includes an
| updated inventory, with images instead of just words for
| items. The stump joke is removed, too (partly due to the
| LucasArts hintline getting calls about a missing disk #131!).
|
| Monkey Island Ultimate Talkie Edition[1] is another project
| that can extract the data from the Special Editions, as well
| as the music and voice files. The resulting build is
| compatible with ScummVM, meaning you can play the original
| games with the updated audio.
|
| [0]: https://quickandeasysoftware.net/software/monkey-island-
| expl...
|
| [1]: http://gratissaugen.de/ultimatetalkies/monkey1.html
| Zetobal wrote:
| gog
| unixhero wrote:
| Steam gog
|
| And archive.org some of the games are abandonware and free.
| toasteros wrote:
| Just note that abandonware is not a legal term, and the
| ScummVM team consider it piracy/warez. You don't get
| supported with problems by ScummVM if you play an
| illegitimately acquired copy of a game.
|
| There ARE some games which are released by the original
| developers for free. Beneath a Steel Sky can even be found in
| the Debian and Arch repositories, for example.
| Dalewyn wrote:
| For anyone who cares about legality, do not touch Internet
| Archive (archive.org) with a 10 foot pole. That place is one
| of the biggest collections of warez known to man today.
| galapago wrote:
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php/Where_to_get_the_games
| o11c wrote:
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=Category:Freeware_G...
|
| but hm, that category is larger than the category of supported
| games ... clicking through to the "where to get" link gives a
| more curated list.
|
| There are 4 shipped in most Linux distros (probably more a
| matter of exact license than quality alone):
| Flight of the Amazon Queen - everything you'd expect from a
| fantasy adventure; play this if nothing else Beneath a
| Steel Sky - a good game, just not a happy one Lure of
| the Temptress - this was buggy when I played it, managing to
| crash/freeze the VM Drascula: The Vampire Strikes Back
| - cringe
| justsomehnguy wrote:
| > probably more a matter of exact license
|
| Yep, they were _freewared_.
|
| > quality
|
| I have the experience with Flight and Steel Sky only, but
| they are good.
| nu11ptr wrote:
| Gog is ideal. I own several of them, and if you are patient,
| they run great sales throughout the year making them very cheap
| to obtain (and there isn't any DRM).
| sspiff wrote:
| Interesting.
|
| My 5 year old sons favourite app on his Android tablet is
| ScummVM.
|
| I bought all the Putt Putt, Freddy Fish, and Spy Fox games on
| Steam, and after copying the data files over to ScummVM on
| Android, my son has been enjoying them a lot.
|
| I'd much prefer him spending his time with these rather than
| these toxic mobile games that target young kids with repetitive
| loops locked behind countdown timers and in app purchases.
| hedora wrote:
| Those games are infinitely better than anything I could find in
| the app store, and the whole collection was (is?) $50.
| jurgenkesker wrote:
| Currently around that price indeed on Steam Sale, and lower
| if you only look for Spy Fox bundle or Put Put or whatever
| you want. Very nice.
| BSDobelix wrote:
| And in 5 years when your for example on a long roadtrip you can
| buy him "The Longest journey" (don't forget the HD patches
| https://tljhd.github.io/)
| whazor wrote:
| They are also sold as games on the App Store, but I think they
| use an older version of ScummVM and it was really broken for
| us.
|
| I am hoping some more iOS improvements/fixes could be done.
| These games are amazing (still are very funny to my 4yo!). I
| would like to see a bigger touch area and proper touch dragging
| support.
|
| While I also think they don't make games like these anymore
| nowadays. Please comment below with examples to proof us wrong.
| anotherhue wrote:
| First person to write a browser that can run under Scumm wins an
| EU prize.
| aspenmayer wrote:
| You could probably run lynx under iSH.app
| bossyTeacher wrote:
| What is the appeal with games that are this old? Is the audience
| people that played them in their childhood? I struggle to see
| kids (who are used to super colourful, hyper interactive,
| animated games) play GBC games let alone something like this. Any
| ideas?
| ethbr1 wrote:
| Plot. Story. Humor. Thinking.
| bmacho wrote:
| Visuals. Music. Challenge.
| unixhero wrote:
| Story, charm, fun
| kemayo wrote:
| A lot of the audience probably is the nostalgic. But also,
| there's quite a few genuinely good games in there, and also
| some very foundational ones. The tendency towards cartoony
| graphics and a plot/humor focus means that in some ways they've
| aged a lot better than other games from a similar era.
|
| In a way it's like asking why people read old fashioned novels,
| even though they're out of step with modern language and
| culture.
| alberth wrote:
| It's the same reason why Nintendo does so well relative to
| PS/XBox.
|
| It doesn't have to be all about high-end graphics.
|
| Plot, game play, fun is what's most important for a large
| segment of gamers.
| bossyTeacher wrote:
| Does that mean that you would be happy to pay a premium
| (think PS5 prices) to play new games that are in that format?
| Hugsun wrote:
| I'd be surprised if many youngsters would seek these out
| themselves but nostalgia drives many people and they're likely
| to push younger people to try this out.
|
| I have a hard time finding the appeal for myself.
| chongli wrote:
| To turn it around on you: what's wrong with old games? Does
| anyone ask the same about books?:
|
| "What is the appeal with books that are this old?"
|
| Not very often from what I can tell. I do see the sentiment
| you've expressed regarding games much more often. Why is that?
| I'm not sure. Perhaps it's just a sign of the immaturity of
| games as a medium (compared to books, anyway).
| kemayo wrote:
| There's a lot of user interface issues in playing an older
| game. Not so much the graphics -- people like "pixel" styling
| in modern games, though generally at much higher resolutions
| and with better color palettes than in old games -- but
| rather in how you interact with the games.
|
| There's a lot of experimentation in old games about how to
| approach certain concepts, where _eventually_ something won
| out and became the way we do it. So it 's very strange to go
| back to e.g. an old first-person game and realize that WASD
| controls aren't used.
|
| I recently saw this YouTube video ("How System Shock's Reboot
| Wrestles With Adapting Its Legacy" by Errant Signal) that
| talks a bit about this take on the issue, which might
| interest you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDQ24iAkh90
| wavemode wrote:
| That's sort of tangential though. A game can have user
| interface problems and still be fun. A game can be outdated
| and still be fun.
|
| I would argue the age of a game is entirely orthogonal to
| whether it is possible to still enjoy playing it.
|
| Will EVERYONE enjoy playing it? Probably not. But some
| people do. And that's enough to give projects like ScummVM
| a valuable purpose.
| carlhjerpe wrote:
| Well, technology has progressed quite far while humans are
| still humans with the same (but slightly better maintained)
| brain. I have a hard time watching old movies where the FX is
| crap
| jonhohle wrote:
| And many of us who like practical effects feel the
| opposite. If a movie hasn't engaged you enough to see past
| the puppet, makeup, and rigging, there's probably something
| else missing.
| bossyTeacher wrote:
| Books and games are different. Books is just text (mostly) so
| there is no expectation of anything else. It is art.
|
| Games are entertainment. So they are supposed to have higher
| levels of engagement over time
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| They're still fun.
| jonhohle wrote:
| While I don't share the sentiment, I have an anecdote that
| might be relatable.
|
| Some time around 2014 I finally got around to playing
| Castlevania: symphony of the Night. It was almost 20 years old,
| casykevania had long since moved to 3D graphics and stages.
| Even when it was released in the 90s it could have been
| considered outdated due to its small, sprite-based graphics.
|
| It turns out, the game is a masterpiece. The control, the level
| design, the progression, the exploration, the freedom of item
| choice are all exceptional. Even the graphics are beautiful for
| what they are without needing a RTX 4090 and 4K display. I've
| replayed it several times since then and it opened up a new
| genre of games that I hadn't previously considered liking.
|
| Many of the Lucas Arts point and click adventures may or may
| not soar the same interest. They're quirky, funny, clever games
| that can be played casually.
|
| For kids who like games, the gameplay is enough. They might say
| how dopey it looks at the start, but if it hooks them, that
| reaction will fade away.
| ethbr1 wrote:
| For those who don't recognize Scumm (since it's getting pretty
| old now...), it was an adventure game engine. Widely used for
| classic Lucasfilm Games/LucasArts titles. _(edit fixed! See below
| comment)_
|
| Here's the list of supported games:
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=Category:Supported_...
|
| If you're looking for recommendations...
|
| - Zork (the OG, and sequels):
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=Zork
|
| - Beneath a Steel Sky:
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=Beneath_a_Steel_Sky
|
| - Blade Runner:
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=Blade_Runner
|
| - The Castle of Dr. Brain (and sequels):
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=Castle_of_Dr._Brain
|
| - Maniac Mansion / Day of the Tentacle:
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=Maniac_Mansion
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=Day_of_the_Tentacle
|
| - The Dig: https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=The_Dig
|
| - Full Throttle:
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=Full_Throttle
|
| - Gabriel Knight (and sequels):
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=Gabriel_Knight
|
| - Grim Fandango:
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=Grim_Fandango
|
| - Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis:
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=Indiana_Jones_and_t...
|
| - Kings Quest (and sequels):
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=King%27s_Quest
|
| - Leather Goddesses from Phobos (and sequel):
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=Leather_Goddesses_o...
|
| - Leisure Suit Larry (and sequels):
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=Leisure_Suit_Larry
|
| - The Longest Journey:
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=The_Longest_Journey
|
| - Police Quest (and sequels):
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=Police_Quest
|
| - Riven: The Sequel to Myst:
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=Riven:_The_Sequel_t...
|
| - Sam and Max Hit the Road:
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=Sam_%26_Max_Hit_the...
|
| - The Secret of Monkey Island (and sequels):
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=The_Secret_of_Monke...
|
| - Space Quest:
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=Space_Quest
|
| - Syberia: https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=Syberia
| kemayo wrote:
| To pedantically correct a thing you said, _SCUMM_ (Script
| Creation Utility for Maniac Mansion) was an adventure game
| engine, and was used for early LucasArts titles (absolutely no
| Sierra games!).
|
| _ScummVM_ is a program that bundles a lot of reimplementations
| of different game engines together, such that you can play
| pretty much any game in the "point and click adventure"
| category from the late 80s through early 2000s on modern
| platforms so long as you provide the data-files for it
| yourself. As you might guess from the name, some scope creep
| has happened since its origin.
| ethbr1 wrote:
| Thanks for the correction! Fixed above. Early morning. :)
|
| FM/YI, here's the mapping of games to engines:
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=Engines
|
| Apparently the Sierra engines were AGI and then SCI.
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=AGI
| https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=SCI
| RajT88 wrote:
| For anyone who still hasn't seen the new Indiana Jones movie,
| but is thinking about it some time: Go play Fate of Atlantis
| instead.
| paozac wrote:
| I've always wondered why they didn't use the Fate of Atlantis
| script instead of the awful crystal skull
| RajT88 wrote:
| Same. It is arguably a paint by numbers Indy romp. Which of
| course the 2 newer films are not.
| jl6 wrote:
| I've often pondered this and I have concluded that there
| are a number of factors:
|
| 1. Licensing. While it might appear that the Indiana Jones
| IP is fully in the hands of Disney, it's plausible that
| there are nuances behind the scenes. For example, Paramount
| owns the distribution rights to the first four films.
| That's a different issue, but I mention it as an example of
| how rights can become fragmented over time over multiple
| contracts. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the rights to
| Fate of Atlantis are more complex than we see from the
| outside. Having said that, I've no evidence of this.
|
| 2. It was a good game, but does that make for a good movie?
| FoA had some great game features: multiple paths, fun
| puzzles, classic adventure game exploration and
| interactivity, awesome pixel art - but none of these are
| useful to a movie.
|
| 3. The script was... OK. It doesn't have any standout
| quotable lines like the first three films did. Its comedy
| is more slapstick than witty, and there are more than a few
| video-game in-jokes. It's also highly derivative, written,
| I suspect, to make players think "This is cinematic! This
| is just like a real Indiana Jones movie!" To that end, it
| worked brilliantly. But in the 90s, games were still a
| sideshow compared to Hollywood, and were written in a
| parodic style, not yet having found their own space as a
| unique medium. To an extent, this is still true today.
|
| 4. An aging Harrison Ford is tough to reconcile with a
| story set in the 1930s. I expect this alone was a big
| driver in the studio wanting new scripts set in the 50s and
| 60s for the last two films.
|
| 5. Movies based on games have an abysmal track record, and
| I'm sure Hollywood producers get an allergic reaction
| whenever someone suggests another one.
|
| And yet, despite all the above, FoA is still fantastic raw
| material for a movie. The plot, mythology, locations, set-
| pieces, and even the music, are all perfect for being
| reimagined on the big screen. Which leads me to the final
| reason why I think it hasn't happened:
|
| 5. Nobody took games seriously in the 90s, Lucas was in
| control in the 00s for Crystal Skull and wanted his own
| story not somebody else's, Disney was distracted by Star
| Wars and Marvel in the 10s, and by the time we get to Dial
| of Destiny in the 20s, Disney has become so risk averse
| that the idea of pulling ideas from a video game seems far
| outside what they are creatively capable of. Sadly, with
| Dial of Destiny bombing, the franchise is probably dead
| until the 30s.
|
| Still, the fact that Disney lawyers shut down the recent
| fan-remastered version of the FoA game gives me hope that
| they still recognize how much value that IP has. They've
| strip-mined every other IP, so it's possible they will
| eventually realize they've been digging in the wrong place,
| let go of Harrison Ford (in either live, de-aged, or
| posthumous generative form), and get their top men working
| on it.
| unixhero wrote:
| There is also Dreamm https://aarongiles.com/dreamm/
| toasteros wrote:
| DREAMM is a pretty significant project, and differs from
| ScummVM in a few ways. Primarily, ScummVM is an engine rewrite.
| They write new code that copies the behaviour of the original
| games.
|
| Aaron Giles worked at LucasArts and was instrumental in porting
| SCUMM to Windows (for Full Throttle and Curse of Monkey
| Island). DREAMM is a full x86 emulator that takes the original
| game code and runs it directly.[0]
|
| Amusingly enough, I guess that makes DREAMM more of a virtual
| machine than ScummVM is.
|
| [0]: https://aarongiles.com/dreamm/docs/v21/#faq-scummvm
| awill wrote:
| This is fantastic. I consider iOS far superior in so many ways
| over Android. Except that it is locked down so much. If iOS
| becomes more open, there will be nearly no reason to get an
| Android.
| loloquwowndueo wrote:
| Downloadable or installable game content is hardly any
| indication that iOS is about to become more open. Plenty of
| other apps do that.
| asylteltine wrote:
| Locked downness is a non issue coming from a previous android
| fanboy. iOS is just superior in every way. No I don't care that
| you can change some font on your android phone.
| wavemode wrote:
| Can you specify some examples of how "iOS is just superior in
| every way"?
| asylteltine wrote:
| Smoothness
|
| Security
|
| Updates for even ancient phones
|
| Massively integrated ecosystem
|
| Higher quality apps, even googles own
|
| Best hardware
| nikolay wrote:
| It's not superior in any way. I have both an Android phone
| (Samsung) and an iPhone. Android rules except in one aspect -
| battery life.
| pixelpoet wrote:
| > Android rules except in one aspect - battery life.
|
| This is like saying Windows is better than Linux for battery
| life, which is obviously ridiculous because it's primarily
| about the hardware, not software. Put Android on Apple's
| excellent silicon and watch how suddenly "Android" has really
| good battery life.
|
| Anyway, both are disgusting passive consumption oriented
| walled gardens, and phones in general are terrible computers
| as software goes.
| tempodox wrote:
| Yum, must get this for my iPad. I'm curious to see what games cam
| be installed with it.
| toasteros wrote:
| ScummVM 2.8.0 is a pretty big release overall, with the App Store
| release just being the icing on the cake. The full notes are
| pretty long![0]
|
| The list of supported games has grown a lot. ScummVM is capable
| of running the Adibou series now, as well as the first Might &
| Magic game and Muppet Treasure Island!
|
| A hefty review of the Broken Sword engine has also restored a lot
| of small missing features.
|
| If you have even a _passing_ interest in classic adventure games,
| you owe it to yourself to check it out.
|
| [0]:
| https://downloads.scummvm.org/frs/scummvm/2.8.0/ReleaseNotes...
| galapago wrote:
| There is another HN thread to discuss that release here:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38816506
| mig39 wrote:
| unfortunately it doesn't work on Apple Silicon Macs (opens then
| crashes). Is it available as a Mac version?
| throwaway5959 wrote:
| Yes just go to the SCUMMVM site.
| wronglebowski wrote:
| How'd this get past app review? Apple has allowed zero emulators
| of any type on the App Store. I bet this gets crushed.
| DaiPlusPlus wrote:
| Well... it's not an "emulator", I suppose - it's an execution-
| engine.
| kmeisthax wrote:
| Apple is very weird with how they interpret that part of their
| rules. iSH is allowed but not iDOS, etc.
| KMnO4 wrote:
| iSH has compiled the binaries for arm64 so they actually run
| natively. When they do a syscall to malloc they are actually
| doing a syscall to malloc.
|
| iDOS is interpreting the bytecode and wrapping the
| unavailable things with its own implementation. When a DOS
| application runs malloc, the memory is assigned by iDOS
| instead.
|
| I'm not saying Apple is consistent, but your example doesn't
| show that well.
| jmah wrote:
| Though it doesn't invalidate the gist of your saying,
| malloc is a user-space function not a syscall. (Its
| implementation will occasionally do a syscall, such as to
| sbrk or vmmap.)
| basique wrote:
| Isn't iSH literally an x86 emulator?
| meindnoch wrote:
| False. iSH is an x86 "bytecode" emulator.
|
| "Possibly the most interesting thing I wrote as part of iSH
| is the JIT. It's not actually a JIT since it doesn't target
| machine code. Instead it generates an array of pointers to
| functions called gadgets, and each gadget ends with a
| tailcall to the next function; like the threaded code
| technique used by some Forth interpreters."
|
| https://github.com/ish-app/ish
| fragmede wrote:
| > 2.5.2 Apps should be self-contained in their bundles, and may
| not read or write data outside the designated container area,
| nor may they download, install, or execute code which
| introduces or changes features or functionality of the app,
| including other apps. Educational apps designed to teach,
| develop, or allow students to test executable code may, in
| limited circumstances, download code provided that such code is
| not used for other purposes. Such apps must make the source
| code provided by the app completely viewable and editable by
| the user.
|
| https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#phy...
| kevingadd wrote:
| Yeah, ScummVM runs the original game scripts, doesn't it? And
| the original games aren't bundled with it (they can't be).
| Kind of surprising they got away with violating that rule.
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| ScummVM explicitly denies being any kind of emulator.
|
| It doesn't run the original source code of the games. Rather,
| it's a complete rewrite of the game that uses the original
| assets (images, sounds, internal scripts, etc.)
| tannhaeuser wrote:
| "[Apple's codex] is more what you'd call 'guidelines' than
| actual rules."
| wronglebowski wrote:
| Exactly, which is why if this gets any traction I believe
| it'll be removed. Apple does not allow you to consume your
| own content on their platforms without a tax or at least a
| little roughing up.
| wharvle wrote:
| VLC's doing fine. It's how our kids watch movies on road
| trips (download to iPad from Jellyfin's web interface, play
| in VLC).
|
| Almost every book I've read in Books is from libgen.
| Download, open-in, and it's on all my devices. Reading
| progress syncs and everything.
|
| The best electronic comic book experience I've seen is from
| a free app (optional one-off IAP that does nothing--I wish
| it had higher tiers, the author is doing god's work and I'd
| have given them $50 or something, no question). I put
| related cbr and cbz files in a directory _in icloud_ , they
| show up seconds later in this app, it quickly figures out
| what they are (no clue how it's as accurate as it is) and
| organizes them, and I get to reading two pages at a time in
| landscape on a 12.9" iPad.
|
| The only Apple content I pay for is Apple Music, because
| it's so damn convenient and I listen to way more music when
| I have it. I used to put my own music files in _the exact
| same app_ , though, and that worked fine.
| Cenk wrote:
| Which app do you use for comics?
| wharvle wrote:
| Yeah, I was gonna plug it since it's great, but didn't
| have it on my phone (it's iPad only, which makes sense)
| and forgot the name.
|
| Looks like it's Chunky:
|
| https://apps.apple.com/us/app/chunky-comic-
| reader/id66356762...
| skydhash wrote:
| Chunky is good, you have multiple ways to import content,
| even straight from calibre.
| ElCapitanMarkla wrote:
| Check out iComics by Tim Oliver. It works really well
| hinkley wrote:
| I decline to acquiesce to your request.
|
| That means 'no'.
| lm411 wrote:
| Indeed, "Guidelines" is also how Apple refers to them.
|
| For good or bad, they are flexible - and that is frustrating
| at times trying to get Apps approved.
|
| https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/
| nsajko wrote:
| I don't think ScummVM features an emulator, rather it
| reimplements game engines.
| meibo wrote:
| Yes, but those games contain scripting languages, like Lua
| for Grim/Escape from Monkey Island. That isn't shipped with
| the app, so it technically violates the rule. Hope they keep
| it up though, or if not, hope they get their ass kicked into
| allowing third-party app stores soon so that you don't need
| to jump through massive hoops to use anything like this.
| pimlottc wrote:
| Is there a way to load games directly on mobile without using a
| cloud storage provider?
|
| There a bunch of freely downloaded games on the ScummVM page here
| [0]. I can download a zip file in mobile but I can't figure out
| how to get it into the app.
|
| 0: https://www.scummvm.org/games/
| pimlottc wrote:
| Ah, figured it out:
|
| 1. In mobile Safari, tap the file to download and tap ok
|
| 2. When it's finished, tap the blue circle with a down arrow
| next to the address bar to open downloads
|
| 3. Tap the file you just downloaded to switch to the Files app
|
| 4. In the Files app, tap the zip file you just downloaded to
| uncompress it
|
| 5. Tap and hold the directory and select "Move"
|
| 6. Navigate to or search for the "ScummVM" folder
|
| 7. Tap "Move" in the upper right hand corner
|
| Now the game should show up in the file browser within ScummVM
| to be added
|
| 1. In the ScummVM launcher, tap "Add Game"
|
| 2. Select the folder and tap "Choose"
| johnwalkr wrote:
| This reminded me of the fact that excellent remasters of monkey
| island were released on the iPhone (and a few other paltforms)
| but were removed from the App Store after a few years. It's a
| shame, they had great new artwork and sound/music but you could
| switch back and forth with the old art and it was cool to see the
| difference in each scene.
| CharlesW wrote:
| Sadly, the developer never updated them for compatibility with
| 64-bit-only versions of iOS (iOS 11+).
| DennisL123 wrote:
| Happy to sign all the necessary NDAs and to port them to 64
| bit, newer iOS versions and devices for free.
| smoldesu wrote:
| If they got depreciated once, it's gonna happen again.
| Apple should invest in Microsoft-tier backwards
| compatibility if they want to avoid publishers abandoning
| their software.
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| That was never Apple's thing. Apple always changes things
| as it pleases and expects the developers to suck it up.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeqPrUmVz-o
| smoldesu wrote:
| Maybe they should look into it then, asking developers if
| you can update their codebase on HN probably won't help
| users very much.
| turquoisevar wrote:
| Not sure if you linked the wrong video, but the one you
| linked to barely supports your comment.
|
| Setting aside that abandoning OpenDoc turned out to be
| the right call, I see a dude trying to get a rise out of
| Jobs and Jobs handling it in a very respectful way, going
| as far as admitting they make mistakes and that he is
| flawed, but that ultimately the decisions are made with
| the end user (and sales) in mind and less with what kind
| of nifty technology is behind it.
|
| Specifically on the matter of 32-bit support, not
| dropping it would've meant not being able to make the
| leaps forward that they were able to make, which led to a
| better user experience.
|
| From the developer side of things, as a developer for
| Apple platforms, it's a silly discussion to begin with
| because in 99% of the cases it just meant recompiling it
| against the latest SDK.
|
| So I have no lost love for devs that couldn't be arsed,
| even ignoring the fact that the entire ecosystem is known
| for rapid improvements and continuous maintenance. In
| fact that's what most indie devs love about it.
| devbent wrote:
| > So I have no lost love for devs that couldn't be arsed,
|
| How are teams that no longer exist supposed to recompile
| anything? Plenty of source is laying around where the
| last person who knew how to compile it left the company
| years ago and no one even knows how to check the software
| out from the source repo anymore.
|
| (Pre Git, it wasn't always obvious how to even pull
| software down from repos, tools like perforce allow for
| fancy remapping of folders so you cannot necessarily just
| pull source down, also I've worked in repos where you
| needed specially modified scripts that weren't in the
| repo so you could actually build things!)
|
| Microsoft's MO has been that once the end user has
| acquired an executable, that program will keep working
| damn nearly forever.
|
| 16bit support was the only time they ever dropped
| anything, and people are still upset about that.
| incrudible wrote:
| > just recompile it bro
|
| This assumes you have all the source code for everything
| available, the person to do it ready, and that no
| compiler errors anywhere have crept in through the many
| revisions of the SDK. None of these assumptions hold for
| iOS ports that sold poorly (as most did), that were done
| by some team (likely defunct) as a one-off, that probably
| used a bunch of middleware they didn't own. It's just not
| worth it, otherwise it would've happened.
| dwaite wrote:
| I suspect Apple considers developers ignoring a five(?)
| year notice period that 32 bit compatibility will be
| dropped a sign that the publisher has already abandoned
| their software.
| incrudible wrote:
| A "notice" doesn't pay bills. If the cost of porting over
| is expected to exceed future revenue, the publisher can
| not be expected to foot the bill.
| turquoisevar wrote:
| God no.
|
| As an end user it's already annoying how, mainly big
| devs, are extremely slow in adopting the latest APIs,
| this would only motivate them more to just sit on their
| laurels.
|
| As a dev for Apple platforms it would become a buggy mess
| and would lead to less bumping of target OS versions,
| which in turn leads to needing to reinvent wheels and
| coming up with time consuming workarounds.
|
| Just one look at the gazillion ways Windows 11 has
| implemented configuration apps, from as far back as the
| XP era, has me shudder. You start out with Win 11 stuff
| but oh, you want to use that one thing? Now you're lopped
| into Windows 7 stuff oh you want this other thing, enjoy
| this XP app, etc, etc. All in the name of backwards
| compatibility, no thank you.
|
| Hell, the fact that they had to skip Windows 9 because of
| so many devs checking for a 9 to detect 95/98 is another
| such messy nonsense.
|
| If I had to choose between that experience or Apple
| forcing me every year to learn an entirely new
| programming language + UI framework + persistent storage
| framework I'll happily become a polyglot because the MS
| way of doing things is ridiculous.
| ndiddy wrote:
| This is an example of the value provided by ScummVM, it means
| that fans are able to keep playing the games without having
| to deal with rightsholders who don't want to maintain them.
| dang wrote:
| Related:
|
| _ScummVM_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33701378 - Nov
| 2022 (2 comments)
|
| _ScummVM 2.5 "Twenty years ago today"_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28812403 - Oct 2021 (43
| comments)
|
| _ScummVM "Interactive Fantasy" 2.2.0 Sees the Light_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24619533 - Sept 2020 (52
| comments)
|
| _ScummVM 2.1.0_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21231840
| - Oct 2019 (38 comments)
|
| _ScummVM 2.0 released_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15946692 - Dec 2017 (31
| comments)
|
| _ScummVM ported to HTML5 - play old games in your browser_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861429 - June 2013 (34
| comments)
|
| _Maniac Tentacle Mindbenders: ScummVM 's unpaid coders keep
| adventure gaming alive_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3508909 - Jan 2012 (7
| comments)
|
| _GPL, ScummVM and violations_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2108237 - Jan 2011 (11
| comments)
|
| _Atari violates the ScummVM 's license_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=675418 - June 2009 (11
| comments)
| debacle wrote:
| "ScummVM is a program which allows you to run certain classic
| graphical adventure and role-playing games, provided you already
| have their data files. The clever part about this: ScummVM just
| replaces the executables shipped with the games, allowing you to
| play them on systems for which they were never designed! ScummVM
| is a complete rewrite of these games' executables and is not an
| emulator.
|
| ScummVM supports an extensive library of over 325 adventure
| games, including classic titles from iconic studios such as
| LucasArts, Sierra On-Line, Revolution Software, Cyan, Inc. and
| Westwood Studios. Alongside groundbreaking games like the Monkey
| Island series, Broken Sword, Myst, Blade Runner and numerous
| well-known titles, you can experience truly obscure adventures
| and discover hidden gems."
|
| For those (like me) who didn't know what ScummVM was.
|
| https://www.scummvm.org/compatibility/
| macco wrote:
| Some Free Software projects are simply to good to be true.
| ScummVM is one of them.
|
| I remember fondly replaying Monkey Island on my Linux machine
| thanks to it.
| riffraff wrote:
| IIRC, some time ago I purchased The Secret of Monkey Island from
| GOG, and discovered it actually packages ScummVM. I wonder if
| they "give back" to the community somehow.
| galapago wrote:
| Not any more: https://www.scummvm.org/news/20231206/
| av3csr wrote:
| Been playing Might and Magic IV & V (Worlds of Xeen) on ScummVM
| lately, probably the best way to play them.
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