[HN Gopher] UK announces commercial operations of longest land/s...
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UK announces commercial operations of longest land/subsea
interconnector
Author : Svip
Score : 107 points
Date : 2023-12-29 16:45 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nationalgrid.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nationalgrid.com)
| figmert wrote:
| Will this finally decrease some of these bills? Or will this just
| mean even more record profit for the energy companies?
| Faaak wrote:
| Both
| altacc wrote:
| " It will bring more than PS500 million in savings for UK
| consumers in the first ten years."
|
| If you believe that I have a monorail to sell you! Why pass
| onto consumers what you can take as profit.
|
| Norwegian news is reporting that the price of electricity will
| increase a tiny amount (about PS10-15 a year) in both Norway &
| the UK as an increased flow of power means more bidders for it,
| pushing the price up when power is scarce (which seems to be
| most of the time).
|
| https://www.nrk.no/sorlandet/ny-kraftkabel-kan-fore-til-dyre...
| OscarCunningham wrote:
| PS500 million over 60 million people over 10 years is PS1 per
| person per year. I can believe it.
| louthy wrote:
| 67 million people (as of 2020, so probably not far off 70m
| now)
| jonplackett wrote:
| But we had to spend 1.7 billion. So looks like we need to
| wait 37 years for payback...
| OscarCunningham wrote:
| I don't know if the UK government paid the full amount,
| but PS50 million a year for PS1.7 billion is a 2.9%
| interest rate, which is approximately sensible.
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| >Why pass onto consumers what you can take as profit.
|
| Because other suppliers will outbid you.
|
| >Norwegian news is reporting that the price of electricity
| will increase a tiny amount (about PS10-15 a year) in both
| Norway & the UK as an increased flow of power means more
| bidders for it, pushing the price up when power is scarce
| (which seems to be most of the time).
|
| That doesn't make sense, if energy is scarce in one country
| but not the other then the additional supply should lower
| prices.
| hardlianotion wrote:
| The interconnector is with Denmark, which is connected to
| other countries as well. Presumably it is this extra demand
| that could cause the price rise.
| ta1243 wrote:
| It will lower the peaks of the prices, but at the same time
| increase the depths. Currently those on market driven
| tarrifs can sometimes get paid to take electricity, and
| certainly have low prices. For example Octopus Agile is
| charging under 5p/kWh from 2230-2300 today, and from
| 0600-0630 actually paid its customers 4p/kWh
|
| With Denmark able to buy 1GW this will increase demand at
| the cheapest bits (when supply is high), but with Denmark
| able to sell 1GW it will increase supply and thus drive
| lower price.
|
| The majority of people in the UK don't pay market prices
| for electricity and instead pay a government set "cap"
| which is based around hiding the actual cost in the
| marketing material because far too many people in the UK
| don't understand what you can do with 1kWh or how it
| affects your bill - some people on think that turning 30W
| of LED lights off makes a material difference to the
| monthly cost they pay for example.
| ta1243 wrote:
| > If you believe that I have a monorail to sell you! Why pass
| onto consumers what you can take as profit.
|
| That's about 15p per month per household
| _dain_ wrote:
| heaven forbid someone build infrastructure because of the
| profit motive
| patcon wrote:
| Re: cutting undersea cables. For critical infrastructure like
| this during cold war style conditions (i.e. Russian-NATO
| conflict), I wonder how pros/cons of public vs private ownership
| compare...
|
| For example: I could imagine sabotaging _public_ infra is more
| akin to an attack on the state (therefore disincentized). But on
| the other hand, I suspect _private_ interests can be more clever
| in protecting their investment, because they can more readily pay
| for high mitigation costs when consequent losses would be high.
|
| Anyone else know how to thing of the tradeoffs between public vs
| private infrastructure here?
| 1920musicman wrote:
| AFAIK attacks on sufficiently important private infra is also
| considered an attack on the state. There is no meaningful
| difference, other than the scale of the attack and the
| importance of that infra.
|
| The main defining factor in how the state responds to such an
| attack is whether escalation is in the interest of the victim.
| E.g. recent attacks on _commercial_ ships in the Red Sea.
| Scubabear68 wrote:
| Indeed, I wonder if convoys will be resurrected to protect
| shipping in the Red Sea area.
| patcon wrote:
| Yeah thanks for stating it clearly. That distinction makes
| sense to me too :)
| davedx wrote:
| Think the bigger problem is proving beyond reasonable doubt who
| did it, see Nordstream
| mcfedr wrote:
| That's surely more about convience, i.e. no one in Europe
| wants to actually deal with Russia so will faff around
| pretending they don't know who did it as long as possible
| WJW wrote:
| There's only three possible outcomes that have any chance
| of being true and none of them are good:
|
| - It was the Russians, and the demands by the public to
| respond might escalate the current situation from a nice
| contained proxy war into something that might get actual
| voters killed.
|
| - It was the Ukrainians, which would be politically awkward
| because we're supposed to be allies.
|
| - It was the USA, which would also be politically awkward
| for the same reason.
|
| So in all cases it would be better to not find out in the
| first place, hence the current faffing about.
| fbdab103 wrote:
| Not sure it had to be a state operation. The attack could
| have been done by just a handful of guys with practically
| no funding. The pipe is not that deep underwater and
| would not require much incentive to blow.
| DamonHD wrote:
| Hurrah! I thought that it wasn't coming on-line until January!
| riffic wrote:
| look what's three days away
| corradio wrote:
| If you're curious, you can follow it live on
| https://app.electricitymaps.com
|
| Right now it's transporting ~20MW from Denmark to the UK
| WJW wrote:
| Up to 779 MW now, maybe they're ramping it up slowly?
| justinclift wrote:
| Interesting.
|
| The map seems buggy for Canada. The "Country" map for Canada
| seems to be wrong, as it looks like it's subdivided into
| several pieces (as if it was the "Zone" view).
| greenbit wrote:
| Didn't see mention of the voltage/current specs. 1400A at 1MV
| maybe? HVDC is morbidly fascinating, and the gear to transform
| has that awesome 1950s sci-fi look.
| davedx wrote:
| I actually drove all the way out to the Britned HVDC
| transformer station near Rotterdam earlier this year.
| Absolutely huge bunch of gear, mostly enclosed though and no
| public tours :(
| mikeyouse wrote:
| Currently it's only 800MW at 525KV but eventually they'll bump
| that to 1,400MW so 2,700A if my math is right?
| formerly_proven wrote:
| It's bipolar (+- 525 kV) according to W
| jameshart wrote:
| The 'Viking Link' connector, projecting Danish power across the
| North Sea... I feel a song coming on...
|
| Aaaa-aaaaaa-ah! Aaaa-aaaaaa-ah!
|
| It comes from the land of the ice and snow
|
| From the midnight sun where the cold winds blow
|
| The hammer of the gods
|
| Will turn the blades of turbines
|
| To light the grid, sing and cry
|
| Wind power, I am coming...
| hkt wrote:
| This is genius tbh
| davedx wrote:
| Beautiful. Rousing.
|
| Has the Danelaw come again? Someone call Uhtred!
| londons_explore wrote:
| My attempt:
|
| (Tune begins with a rising, powerful melody)
|
| Verse 1: From the shores of the Danes to Britannia's realm,
| Where the sea meets the sky in a watery helm, There's a thread
| made of power, so silent and sleek, A marvel of might that the
| ancients would seek.
|
| Chorus: Oh, Viking Link, your cables enfold, Uniting the lands
| as the sagas once told. Electric currents, like legends of old,
| Viking Link, forging futures so bold.
|
| Verse 2: Beneath the North Sea where the mermaids do sing, Lies
| a path of pure energy, a power-bringing string, Connecting the
| heart of the emerald isles, With wind-harnessed force that
| covers the miles.
|
| Chorus: Oh, Viking Link, your currents so free, Dance 'cross
| the depths of the deep, briny sea. Blending the watts as the
| mead-masters would, Viking Link, for the greater world's good.
|
| Bridge: Hark! As the turbines spin round and round, A whisper
| of Odin, in kilowatts found. Thor might have thundered with
| fierce, mighty sound, But our silent giant lies under the
| ground.
|
| Verse 3: From the fjords where the Vikings once launched their
| great fleets, Comes a new age of conquest, where technology
| meets. And the UK replies with welcoming hands, Together they
| stand, where power demands.
|
| Final Chorus: Oh, Viking Link, your saga's begun, Tales of
| electrons, from dusk until dawn. May your current flow steady
| and strong, Viking Link, in our hearts, your song lingers on.
|
| (End with a triumphant harmony)
| allanrbo wrote:
| How come Denmark can produce cheaper and less carbon intensive
| energy than the UK? Can't offshore windmills be built in the UK
| too?
| martin-adams wrote:
| They can, but the problem they face is that they can't get any
| of the developers to want to build them because the ROI is set
| too low.
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/sep/08/what-wen...
| VBprogrammer wrote:
| That's a very recent phenomenon though right? Presumably the
| current rates of inflation have a big impact. It wasn't so
| long ago that we were seeing record low strike prices being
| accepted for offshore wind, down to about PS40/MWh.
| hkt wrote:
| The UK has very large amounts of offshore wind, unfortunately
| it isn't enough and we're not developing more capacity fast
| enough. It doesn't help that the government has utterly screwed
| the incentives:
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/sep/08/what-wen...
| alexchamberlain wrote:
| Also, when the wind blows too much, we produce more than we
| need. Christmas day had negative prices before 7am, as we had
| too much wind power.
| dukeyukey wrote:
| They can, and the UK is one of the largest builders of offshore
| wind. But Denmark has spare capacity, and UK electricity prices
| are high.
| Angostura wrote:
| It's not really said in the story, but this is a
| _bidirectional_ connector.
|
| There are certainly times when the UK generates excess energy
| from wind.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| This interconnector was already exporting to Denmark
| earlier in the week when the UK was experiencing record
| wind generation (per Electricity Maps [1]). The link
| currently can't be maximized from West Denmark to the UK
| due to transmission constraints on the DK side.
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38807469
| dukeyukey wrote:
| Absolutely. It's a given with stuff like wind.
| fbdab103 wrote:
| Is that rare? I naively thought that all electrical
| infrastructure could flow in whichever direction there was
| need.
| scrlk wrote:
| See "reverse power flow":
| https://roadnighttaylor.co.uk/connectology/what-is-
| reverse-p...
| davedx wrote:
| There are... Hornsea for example is one of the bigger ones:
| https://hornseaproject3.co.uk/
| DamonHD wrote:
| Geographical spread of wind (and solar) generation helps
| produce a more consistent overall supply.
| swarnie wrote:
| The UK already has a stupid amount of offshore wind with
| multitudes more in the planning / development phase.
|
| This is part of a wider strategy with The Netherlands, Denmark
| and Germany and interconnect their energy markets using the
| north sea renewables as both generation and interconnection.
|
| The future is bright.
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| Offshore is more expensive than onshore wind, which has been
| effectively banned across most of the UK.
| sgt101 wrote:
| As further up in the thread, if a cyclone comes in on the gulf
| stream it arrives 20hrs earlier in the UK than in Denmark, and
| when significant wind power is built on the Irish Atlantic
| coast then there's effects will be amplified and a smoother
| renewable provision for now Europe will be available.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Time to phase out that last coal generator!
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_coal-fired_powe...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratcliffe-on-Soar_Power_Statio...
|
| Edit: interconnector already ramped to 800MW importing to the UK.
| Let's gooooooooo!
| tapland wrote:
| I'd assume this also sets the lowest price in the danish zone to
| the UK market price when exporting?
|
| NordPool market zones are crazy and some zones see insane price
| surges when demand prices for neighboring zones are high.
| WJW wrote:
| Well at least for the first 1.4 GW, yes. Also there is some
| nonzero transmission loss so that needs to be taken into
| account.
|
| The cable can move electricity from the UK to Denmark too btw,
| so some of the price surges in the Danish region could get
| damped because the UK will start exporting electricity and the
| additional supply will bring down the price again.
| KaiserPro wrote:
| The good thing about this is that its bidirectional, so can be
| used to offload ~4.2% of the total generation capacity of the UK,
| or should they need it, import that amount.
|
| That should also cut the tops and bottoms off the spot price of
| electricity.
| zeristor wrote:
| A large amount of wind power generation is in Scotland, four
| further interconnects are being built to transfer this to SE
| England, but it'll take a while.
| dukeyukey wrote:
| Which could theoretically supply nearly half of Denmark's
| electricity demand, at peak transfer.
| silvestrov wrote:
| No. The connection is 1.4 GW and Denmark typically use 4 to 5
| GW. See https://energinet.dk/ (scroll down to map at look at
| "FORBRUG I DK")
| Havoc wrote:
| There is a nice UK grid dashboard too [0]. The UK grid is
| actually quite variable given the amount of wind input, so
| imports/exports tend to be quite twitchy depending on what's
| happening - frequently going to negative and also substantially
| positive on pricing.
|
| [0] https://grid.iamkate.com/
| londons_explore wrote:
| Unfortunately, Denmark has many of the same winds as the UK, so
| on the exact same days the UK has excess power, Denmark doesn't
| need power...
| petermonsson wrote:
| There is a 20 hour time difference from when the wind picks
| up in the UK until the wind picks up in Denmark
| lewj wrote:
| source? interested for the details please.
| londons_explore wrote:
| > with more than four million working hours spent to get to this
| point.
|
| A typical Brit might work 80,000 hours in a lifetime. So this
| interconnector is the lifetimes work of 50 people.
|
| It is approximately 1 millionth of the total work output of all
| people alive in the UK.
|
| Not sure if that is more or less than I expected...
| myself248 wrote:
| The choice of a .com TLD instead of a .uk for a thing called
| "national" is really odd to me.
| timthorn wrote:
| National Grid has operations in the USA these days, it's no
| longer a UK only business.
| gary_0 wrote:
| Lots of fun facts on the Wikipedia page:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_Link
|
| > Annual transmission capacity of 12.3 TWh.
|
| > The actual cable is made of copper, steel, paper and plastic
| and weighs about 40 kg per meter.
|
| > It is similar in capacity and length to the UK-Norway North Sea
| Link.
| hokkos wrote:
| If you want to see the exchange for the whole europe zone :
|
| https://energygraph.info/d/7dWs1mVVk/interconnect-physical-f...
| CapitalistCartr wrote:
| So it has a payback period of over 3 decades. Lots of talk of all
| the resources spent building it, only the carbon savings of
| usage. I wonder how long the carbon payback is. In an era of
| rapidly improving renewables, this doesn't seem like picking low-
| hanging fruit.
| justinclift wrote:
| It's done by NGV, which was described as: NGV
| develops, operates and invests in energy projects, technologies
| and partnerships to accelerate the development of our
| clean energy future.
|
| Maybe they're one of those places which invests in developing
| infrastructure tech, to pave the way for subsequent
| generations?
| malwrar wrote:
| Are there any safety concerns around 1.4GW flowing through a
| cable surrounded by salt water? I'm entirely uneducated in the
| ways of zap juice, but that sounds like a recipe for spontaneous
| electrocution if that cable breaks anywhere.
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(page generated 2023-12-29 23:00 UTC)