[HN Gopher] Don't Say Velcro (2017)
___________________________________________________________________
Don't Say Velcro (2017)
Author : sickmate
Score : 89 points
Date : 2023-12-29 13:28 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.velcro.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.velcro.com)
| Zekio wrote:
| they should've had a longer name if they didn't want to become a
| noun
| voidee wrote:
| "Still confused?" LOL, yes!
| neals wrote:
| So, you can either try to change what's in the vocabulary of 300
| million people for generations. Or change your brand name. They
| chose the first. Interesting.
| OliveMate wrote:
| That's trade mark laws for you. If you don't try and protect
| your trade mark at every opportunity it can be stripped from
| you and every Tom, Dick, and Harry can put out whatever they
| want with your name/term.
|
| I get it, but still, that's the law for you. The most of us
| will still say Velcro because it's what we all know it as.
|
| Related:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generic_and_genericize...
| bradley13 wrote:
| Reminds me of the dark ages, when Xerox was so dominant in the
| copier market that people used their brand as a noun and a verb.
| They were threatened with loss of their trademark, because it had
| become so generic. So they had a massive publicity campaign,
| asking people to say "copy" instead of "xerox".
|
| Is this a uniquely US thing? In the UK, people always say
| "hoover" instead of "vacuum".
| orthoxerox wrote:
| > Is this a uniquely US thing?
|
| No, in Russia people have been xerring documents since
| photocopiers appeared there.
| richie_adler wrote:
| "Xerring"? Not "xeroxing"?
| antender wrote:
| Yep, in Russian xerring (kserit') sounds way better because
| "ox" part is rarely used in native words.
| richie_adler wrote:
| TIL. Thanks!
| miki123211 wrote:
| Polish does the same thing, ksero for the machine,
| kserowac for the verb (wac is a somewhat common verb
| ending for the infinitive).
| notpushkin wrote:
| Username checks out, haha.
| culebron21 wrote:
| You should add that kserokopiya (xerocopy) has been in laws
| for ages. Like "to have the car insurance original or
| xerocopy".
| cassianoleal wrote:
| In Brazil, "xerox" is synonym with copy and is used in pretty
| much any context where the latter word makes sense (even if
| it's not a copy of a document). The verb "xerocar" derives from
| it, and even appears in dictionaries.
|
| https://www.dicio.com.br/xerocar/
| https://dicionario.priberam.org/xerocar
| EvanAnderson wrote:
| Always a good time to share this:
| https://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion/100000002847155/verbat...
| lucasoshiro wrote:
| This happens a lot here in Brazil. Some brands are so famous
| that they are synonyms of some products, e. g. Gillette (razor
| blade), Bom Bril (steel wool), Insulfim (window film) and so
| on.
|
| Xerox is a curious thing here. It is a so strong synonym to
| photocopy that almost no one remembers that it is a brand (at
| least, I don't remember seeing in person any Xerox device). It
| is so strong that xerox also means _the shops_ were the
| photocopies are made.
|
| Just place Google Maps over Sao Paulo, search for "xerox" and
| see what happens
| wazoox wrote:
| In France many trademarks became generic names:
|
| Frigidaire and its abbreviated form frigo is the standard name
| for a refrigerator (nobody ever says "refrigerateur").
|
| Kleenex is the standard word meaning "paper handkerchief".
|
| Sopalin is the standard word for "roll of paper towels".
|
| Many automotive parts are called from a brand name too :
| "Delco" is the only name an igniter is ever called; a flexible
| black tube is always called a "Durit" whatever its brand.
|
| A modular pre-made, stackable non permanent housing module is
| an "Algeco".
|
| A bus stop with a roof is called an Abribus.
|
| A supermarket trolley is almost always called a Caddie.
|
| A credit card is universally called a "Carte Bleue" or CB, to
| the point that people will happily use the nonsensical "CB"
| acronym for a credit card when speaking English.
|
| Cellophane is called Cellophane. I don't even know of an
| another word for it :)
| rzzzt wrote:
| Escalator was a trademark registered by Otis, the company
| that made those stairs-go-up devices: https://en.wikipedia.or
| g/wiki/List_of_generic_and_genericize...
| tuetuopay wrote:
| Don't forget
|
| - bic for a ball pen
|
| - scotch for duct tape
|
| - kalxon for a car honk
|
| - rubalise for the white-and-red tape used in streets
|
| - mobylette for that very specific old style scooter
|
| - pedalo for the floating thingy on the beaches with pedals
|
| As for cellophane I always called it "film plastique" or just
| "plastique", but this varies a lot from region to region and
| family to family.
|
| As for Durit, it's actually a bit more interesting as the
| brand was genericised to "durite". It's so prevalent that we
| have expressions using it like "peter une durite" as a way to
| say "going crazy".
| firebat45 wrote:
| >Cellophane is called Cellophane.
|
| This floor is made of floor
| Biganon wrote:
| I'm Swiss (French speaking) and I call cellophane "saran",
| which... is another brand!
| theragra wrote:
| In Russian we also do this 1uite a lot. Xerox, google and
| photoshop are absolutely normal for activities. Also, thermos
| for vacuum flask. Dandy is a term for NES clones. doshirak or
| rolton for ramen noodles. Fairy for dish washing liquid.
|
| Sure, it is also klaxon, cellophane and scotch.
|
| Interesting, that champagne is the only case I know that won
| the fight. My friends often say sparkling wine for generic
| brands.
| frozenlettuce wrote:
| In Brazil it is still used as a photocopy term (much easier to
| say "tirar uma xerox" than "tirar uma fotocopia"). Other common
| terms that we use that came from brands:
|
| shaving razor -> gilete (instead of "lamina de barbear")
|
| chewing gum -> chiclete (instead of "goma de mascar")
|
| cotton swab -> cotonete (a J&J brand, instead of "haste
| flexivel")
|
| polystyrene -> isopor (a Knauf brand, instead of "esferovite"
| or "poliestireno expandido")
| bitwize wrote:
| I think the "defend it or lose it" nature of trademarks may be
| a US wrinkle, but I'm not sure.
|
| During the 90s, Nintendo popularized the use of the term "game
| console" to avoid people's moms calling their competitors
| "Nintendos". Like Atari before them, their name had become
| synonymous with video games in general, something they wanted
| to avoid in order to protect their trademark.
|
| There are references to "consoles" before this happened, dating
| back to the early 80s, but in everyday language most kids
| called them "video game systems" or by their brand names
| (Atari, Nintendo, Sega, etc.).
| Dwedit wrote:
| The manuals for the NES, SNES, and N64 never once used the
| term "Game Console". They exclusively called it the "Control
| Deck". It's not until the GameCube (2001) that they finally
| refer to the system as a "Console" in the user manual.
|
| Does anyone know any people who actually called their
| consoles "Control Decks"?
| bitwize wrote:
| Again, Control Deck was how they branded their own
| products. In the 90s they ran advertisements advising
| people to refer to their competitors' products as game
| consoles. I don't remember anyone using the term "Control
| Deck" to refer to the console.
|
| Nintendo also referred to their cartridges as Game Paks,
| another term not used outside official Nintendo materials
| (including Nintendo Power). Everybody just called them
| cartridges, carts, or just games. It kind of reminds me of
| how Texas Instruments tried to get "Command Module" over as
| a term for their TI-99/4(A) cartridges. It didn't go over.
|
| Oddly enough, the official TI-ism for the 99/4A unit itself
| was "console".
| Dwedit wrote:
| The famous 1990 ad saying "There's no such thing as a
| Nintendo"
| https://images.nintendolife.com/16326a1099812/no-such-
| thing-... does not mention "Consoles". Do you know of any
| 90s Nintendo ads that do use the word Console?
| bitwize wrote:
| It was one of those things I could've sworn I saw at the
| time. It would've been later than that one, and I swear
| it was Nintendo urging the use of the term console. It
| could be something else, or I might be misremembering
| entirely.
| grishka wrote:
| In Russian it did stick as a word for photocopiers (kseroks),
| copies (kserokopiia) and the act of copying (kserit',
| kserokopirovat') to this day.
|
| At this point it's more of a legend, but it goes that the word
| we use for toilet, unitaz, is the brand name of the company
| that sold toilets in 19th century.
|
| Scotch is one brand of adhesive tape but we call all such tape
| "skotch".
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| Other than kseroks, the other uses can be considered valid
| applications of the Greek root words.
| api_or_ipa wrote:
| In Canada an in-sink garbage disposal unit is called a
| Garburator. I recently learned that's a brand name of said
| devices. I've lived in the states for a while now, but I'm
| entirely unsure what everyone calls them down here.
| jsymolon wrote:
| Going to have to xerox this for my wall.
| mcphage wrote:
| Someone ought to give them a kleenex for all of their boo-
| hooing.
| shafyy wrote:
| Some young folks probably need to google what xeroxing means
| theGeatZhopa wrote:
| But after the changing pampers, please.
| EvanAnderson wrote:
| It is the Cadillac of search engines, after all-- a real
| doozy.
| peterleiser wrote:
| I laughed so hard that I needed a bandaid.
| CharlesW wrote:
| Whoa buddy, let's do a quick zoom first.
| verandaguy wrote:
| Cute attempt, but Velcro/velcro has already been genericised for
| decades at this point. Nobody's going to move (back?) to "hook-
| and-loop," especially when the alternative rolls off the tongue a
| lot better.
| vanviegen wrote:
| That may not matter to Velcro (TM). As long as they're publicly
| making attempts to defend their trademark, perhaps that is
| enough for them to keep legal rights to it.
| boringuser2 wrote:
| It doesn't read like an honest attempt, it reads like a
| tongue-in-cheek parody of one.
|
| Turns out judges used to be lawyers and are pretty good at
| reading between the lines, too.
| mathgeek wrote:
| > That may not matter to Velcro (TM)
|
| Surely you know from reading the article that it's actually
| "Velcro(r) Brand". It's easier to follow than most
| telenovelas. We get it, hook and loop isn't in our everyday
| vocabulary, but calling it Velcro (TM) just wouldn't be true.
| bitwize wrote:
| "I am stuck on Band-Aid(r) brand, 'cause Band-Aid(r)'s
| stuck on me!"
| paulgb wrote:
| > Nobody's going to move (back?) to "hook-and-loop," especially
| when the alternative rolls off the tongue a lot better.
|
| Cynically, I wonder if they intentionally chose an alternative
| that they know is a dud. They clearly _do_ benefit from people
| calling it Velcro, they just can't have a trademark judge
| thinking that they _want_ people to call it Velcro.
|
| In any case, the video is quite fun and well done. If you take
| it as a marketing campaign without putting too much weight on
| the legal strategy, it's smart and well-executed on their part.
| Freak_NL wrote:
| > Nobody's going to move (back?) to "hook-and-loop," [...]
|
| I do, depending on the audience -- I'm fine with hook-and-loop.
| In general I try to avoid generic trademarks whenever
| reasonable. In English this takes more effort; in Dutch this
| isn't too much of an issue. No native Dutch speaker would
| consider calling an 'ijsdweilmachine' a 'zamboni', for example.
| It seems that this is very much a US English thing to do.
| lucumo wrote:
| Nah, it happens in Dutch too. Aspirine for example is
| commonly used for the generic medicine, even though it's a
| brand name. (Hell, it's sometimes even used as a general term
| for a light over-the-counter pain killer like paracetamol.)
|
| TomTom is also sometimes used for general navigation systems,
| though that has been going downhill as fast as the company.
|
| "Googlen" is used too in the general sense. Google does have
| a huge market share, so it's usually correct, but people do
| "google on Bing".
| zuminator wrote:
| "Hook-and-loop" is a crappy name for it in English because it
| conveys an image of someone physically performing a hooking
| and looping action, like the old-timey hobby, latch
| hooking[0]. But the action you perform is really just either
| pressing together or pulling apart. The fact that the
| mechanism is comprised of tiny hooks and loops isn't really
| germane to how it works on a macro level. I quite like the
| "fur tape" mock suggestion in the second video.
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/shorts/4MDeHa_1C-w
| pavon wrote:
| Yeah. If someone was to say their clothes had hook-and-loop
| fastener, I would never think of velcro. I would think of
| the metal hooks and loops (or eyes) on bra straps, old
| jackets, dress pants, etc.
| Tyr42 wrote:
| I know the first robotics competitions exclusively refer to
| hook tape and loop tape as needed in their specifications.
| VoodooJuJu wrote:
| I can't tell if this is good marketing disguised as a joke or if
| it's just mega-out-of-touch cringe.
| esprehn wrote:
| The former, but also it's CYA.
| asylteltine wrote:
| This is literally a psyop. This is free marketing. Don't fall for
| it.
| pard68 wrote:
| This is humor, right?
| mycodendral wrote:
| yes, a cheeky CYA
| tunnuz wrote:
| I'm assuming this is meant to be a joke.
| mingus88 wrote:
| No I think this is a good faith effort to protect their
| trademark
|
| It won't work, but legally if they don't make an effort then
| they lose it by default.
| liquidise wrote:
| (2017)
| lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
| Similarly, many people who own vacuum cleaners which aren't
| Hoover-branded still own hoovers and many chocolate and creme
| sandwich cookies which aren't Oreo-branded are still oreos. I
| think some people in the US will refer to drinks which I call
| "soda" as "coke". Like a "Sprite-coke" if you don't want a cola.
|
| This must be a page for VELCRO(r)'s lawyers to point to during
| relevant lawsuits because the argument otherwise seems like a
| lost cause.
| 1f60c wrote:
| (2017), according to
| https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/2017/09/26/velcros-video...
|
| They're trying to avoid genericide. I think if they _didn 't_ do
| this, they could actually _lose the trademark_.
| dathinab wrote:
| but can they really stop it?
|
| I mean in most cases where a term becomes "generic" it has been
| long time generic before at some point someone bothers to make
| a study/lawsuit which declares it as generic as result.
|
| For example pretty much everyone I know uses Lego as a generic
| term and knows about not Lego produced bricks. Currently Lego
| still managed to defend the trademark but IMHO it's just a
| matter of time until it becomes generic because it already
| defacto is and the only reason they still avoid it becoming
| generic is protectionism.
| bombcar wrote:
| I suspect as long as they don't allow competitors to
| genericize the trademark they'll be ok.
|
| After all there are regions where all soda is called "coke"
| and that trademark hasn't been lost.
| vel0city wrote:
| I live in a region where lots of people refer to most colas
| as "coke", but you bet if I start selling cola in a red can
| with "Coke" on it I'm going to have some lawyers showing up
| at my door.
| JohnFen wrote:
| This. I don't think that "coke" on its own can be
| trademarked because it's an actual common word (a form of
| coal). The trademark would have to be the word in
| combination with other aspects that make it distinctive.
| The color scheme, or font, or associated decorative
| elements, for instance.
|
| "Coca-Cola", however, is distinctive on its own and is
| trademarkable as such.
| kube-system wrote:
| > I don't think that "coke" on its own can be trademarked
| because it's an actual common word (a form of coal).
|
| That wouldn't be relevant unless you were actually
| talking about the form of coal.
|
| Although many people say in shorthand that "[word] is
| trademarked.", trademarks are not "on a word" they're on
| a _particular use of a word_. "coke" when referring to a
| beverage is mostly not a generic word. (Except maybe in
| the southern US :) )
|
| For example "Apple" is trademarked in reference to
| computer hardware/software, etc. It isn't in reference to
| the fruit.
| vel0city wrote:
| The Coca-Cola Company absolutely has a registered
| trademark of Coke for a ton of different products.
|
| https://www.gerbenlaw.com/trademarks/food-companies/coca-
| col...
|
| Trademarks are all about context. Exxon used to have a
| cartoon tiger as a mascot who sometimes looked a bit like
| Tony the Tiger. This was usually fine because the
| contexts were pretty different, one was for foods and one
| was for gasoline, radically different product markets.
| However, once Exxon started using their cartoon tiger
| mascot to sell the foods in the TigerMart convenience
| stores Kellog sued them and won.
|
| https://www.forbes.com/2000/10/17/1017forbes500.html?sh=6
| a04...
|
| If I go to a restaurant and ask for "Coke" they're not
| going to get confused and grab me some coal. I'd be
| pretty confused to open a red 12oz can that says Coke on
| it and find it full of coal dust. Nobody is confusing
| these products.
| bombcar wrote:
| I've noticed more of laces don't even ask "Is Pepsi ok?"
| which might be where things start to fall apart.
| chrismorgan wrote:
| Yes. Xerox is one example of a company that succeeded with
| their marketing campaign in a lot of the world. I understand
| that in Australia one used to xerox documents, but now you
| certainly photocopy them. In India they still xerox
| documents.
| kube-system wrote:
| Maybe. It's an uphill battle, but if they start now at least
| they'll be generating evidence in their favor for the
| inevitable trials to come. But it may be too late. Most
| companies that have done this successfully have started a bit
| earlier.
| jordanpg wrote:
| Yes. This video is now required viewing in intro trademark
| classes at law schools to illustrate this point.
| CodinM wrote:
| ah let me get into my jeep to get some xeroxes of my opinion and
| drive to give them some kleenexes
| jbverschoor wrote:
| Americans tend to use brand names instead of the words for
| things.. Xerox, Velcro etc...
|
| We call it klittenband.. tangle band. Or tangle strip
| dchest wrote:
| Not only Americans, xerox is a word for copier in other
| languages. In Mongolia, it's canon instead.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generic_and_genericize...
| TobyTheDog123 wrote:
| Velcro!
| nmstoker wrote:
| Oh goodness, will this hasten the velcropolipse?
|
| I fear that whilst velcroing items I will forget the need to not
| mention velcro as in to velcro or the thing velcro itself and the
| words the VELCRO(tm) lawyers said about not saying velcro will
| slip from my mind like poorly velcroed shoes.
|
| Does anyone else think their use of velcro in casual conversation
| will be affected? Has anyone tried to use velcro and suffered any
| fall out? I might have to Google it.
| colesantiago wrote:
| v e l c r o (r)
| merelysounds wrote:
| Related, Google wrote a blog post[1] on a similar topic in 2006.
| As far as I know they've successfully avoided genericide and a
| 2017 lawsuit[2] ended with a ruling in their favor.
|
| Also, unsurprisingly, Adobe has a whole section in their
| trademarks page about photoshopping[3]:
|
| > Correct: The image was enhanced with Adobe(r) Photoshop(r)
| Elements software.
|
| > Incorrect: The image was photoshopped.
|
| [1]: https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2006/10/do-you-google.html
|
| [2]:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_litigation#Genericide_o...
|
| [3]: https://www.adobe.com/legal/permissions/trademarks.html
| Faaak wrote:
| > Correct: The image was enhanced with Adobe(r) Photoshop(r)
| Elements software.
|
| Dumb question: how would you pronounce this if you were saying
| it ? Specifically the (r) symbol ?
| PopAlongKid wrote:
| "R in circle". Just like copyright is "C in circle".
| Freak_NL wrote:
| I can just imagine actors on some TV show saying this
| because the corporate sponsors demanded 'correct usage'.
| bitwize wrote:
| In Ren & Stimpy comics, Powdered Toast Man always
| referred to the product for which he was named as
| Powdered Toast(r) or Powdered Toast(tm). I always took
| that as a hint that he pronounced the marks somehow.
| PopAlongKid wrote:
| Why the downvotes for such a simple, factual statement that
| answered the question? If you do an internet search for the
| phrase "C in circle" you'll find it is a quite common way
| to describe this symbol. On the Wikipedia talk page,
| someone mentioned hearing this description in their school
| textbooks which were recorded in an audio version. Way back
| when I volunteered for Recording for the Blind (now
| Learning Ally) I recall that this was also the designated
| way to read this symbol.
| Gare wrote:
| By saying adobeisaregisteredtrademarkofadobecorporation very
| fast :)
| bitwize wrote:
| Unicode's name for it is REGISTERED SIGN. It's usually silent
| when part of a brand name, though.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| I think it's an inflection thing. You unnaturally emphasize
| the word, pause a bit, and try to fight back conveying
| incredulousness with your facial expression.
| danaris wrote:
| Silly-but-true answer: When I'm reading stuff like that aloud
| and wish to both be silly and make a point, I just read it as
| "registeredtrademark", very fast.
|
| Serious answer: You don't. You just leave it out in speech.
| firebat45 wrote:
| Going by the Velcro website, you should be saying "Adobe
| Brand Photoshop Brand Elements software".
|
| Ridiculous.
| lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
| https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca9/15...
| (from wikipedia sources)
|
| > plaintiffs have failed to present sufficient evidence in this
| case to support a jury finding that the relevant public
| primarily understands the word "google" as a generic name for
| internet search engines and not as a mark identifying the
| Google search engine in particular.
|
| I wonder what kind of evidence might actually be used. My lived
| experience has me telling people that I googled something
| despite my default search engine being DDG on all of my
| devices. One can't really present the myriad spoken
| conversations which include this use as evidence in court, so
| what would they do?
|
| Slightly aside: the "correct" examples that are given are
| always amusing but there's something about Adobe's double
| copyright symbol that hits me harder. That is too funny, not
| least because they're 100% serious-face about it.
| phreack wrote:
| Law is weird, but in real life people use google as a verb
| meaning "search on the internet" every single time. When a
| public figure says something like "look it up on Google"
| instead of "google it" (and you an almost hear the (c) in the
| former), that almost always means they've been in long talks
| with Google representatives about an ad campaign and they
| urged the speaker to not use the brand as a verb.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > I wonder what kind of evidence might actually be used.
|
| IANAL, but perhaps the dividing line isn't whether or not the
| term is commonly used as a generic one, but whether people
| are not generally aware that it's a brand name. I wasn't
| aware that "Velcro" was a brand name for a long time, for
| instance.
|
| I think the majority of people using "google" generically are
| also fully aware that "Google" is a brand name.
|
| So the evidence would be some sort of study showing that
| people think it's really generic?
| zuminator wrote:
| I think in Google's favor, their service is so utterly
| dominant[0] as a search engine that when someone asks you to
| google something they have a high expectation that it will be
| done on Google. As opposed to someone asking you to hoover up
| a mess but they don't really form an internal model of which
| vacuum cleaner you'll use, or asking to "borrow" a kleenex
| with no concern as to which brand of tissue you give them.
|
| So even though you personally use DDG, surely there are still
| vastly more searches on Google than on all other search
| engines combined so there's no immediate danger of dilution.
|
| I do have a question though for people familiar with
| trademark law. Why can't they just do away with the trademark
| dilution rule? So what if I want to go "rollerblading" on
| pair of K2s [1]? Why should Rollerblade be at risk of losing
| their trademark? Who is being served by this rule? It just
| seems to incentivize litigious behavior.
|
| [0] https://gs.statcounter.com/search-engine-market-share
| (note that they easily beat all other search engines combined
|
| [1] https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/health-
| products/g46167391/b... (Good Housekeeping has no problem
| genericizing rollerblade all throughout this article. Perhaps
| unlike Velcro, Nordica is ok with this?)
| kube-system wrote:
| > I do have a question though for people familiar with
| trademark law. Why can't they just do away with the
| trademark dilution rule?
|
| It's not really a rule. It's that genericization undermines
| the rationale for trademark protection.
|
| Trademarks are granted to give a business exclusive use of
| an identifier in conjunction with a particular product or
| service in order to protect consumers from marketplace
| confusion.
|
| For example, USPTO has granted a trademark for "iPhone" so
| that when consumers buy an "iPhone" they get what they
| expect. A phone made by Apple Inc. When people say "iPhone"
| they're definitely talking about Apple Inc phones.
|
| However, if consumers themselves don't care, and they use a
| term to refer to any brand, even when they know it is from
| a different origin, then the word is no longer serving the
| purpose for which the trademark was granted.
|
| Otis Elevator company doesn't have a trademark on
| "Escalator" anymore because literally nobody cares what
| company manufactured the moving stairs they're going up.
| Nobody is harmed, confused, or misled when other makes of
| moving stairs are called "escalators".
| smegger001 wrote:
| Ironicly your example is one where Apple initially used
| someone else's trademarked brandname. IPhone had been
| initially owned and used by infogear and later was
| acquired by Cisco and used for a line of VoIP connected
| phones. Apple tried to negotiate a deal for the name but
| announced the Apple iPhone before they had actually
| finished negotiations over the name. Leading to a large
| legal battle that was eventually settled out of court
| where both companies were allowed to sell phones under
| the trademarked iPhone name.
| kube-system wrote:
| And speaking of Cisco, "IOS" for that matter too.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > Correct: The image was enhanced with Adobe(r) Photoshop(r)
| Elements software.
|
| This makes me laugh every time I read it. Surely, even the
| lawyers at Adobe are fully aware that literally nobody is going
| to use that mouthful of a term (complete with (r)s, even).
|
| I always wonder why they didn't come up with a replacement that
| would actually have a chance.
| somedude895 wrote:
| Because they don't care whether people actually do it, nor is
| it realistic that they would. I'm sure the person who wrote
| that "correct" option made it that silly on purpose and
| laughed on pushing Publish.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| > This makes me laugh every time I read it. Surely, even the
| lawyers at Adobe are fully aware that literally nobody is
| going to use that mouthful of a term (complete with (r)s,
| even).
|
| I guarantee you marketing teams at Adobe will use that term.
| NegativeK wrote:
| People with enough reach to be worth suing will write it that
| way, or close enough.
| Dwedit wrote:
| Actual photo shops existed before Adobe Photoshop.
| HL33tibCe7 wrote:
| > Us lawyers have to protect our people. Using the VELCRO(r)
| trademark properly allows us to protect the integrity of the
| VELCRO(r) Brand and our trademark rights, and protect consumers
| from purchasing products incorrectly identified as VELCRO(r)
| Brand products. It's, you know, the right thing to do.
|
| One of my least favourite thing is when massive corporations use
| this kind of cutesy language. To me, it brings to mind the wolf
| from Little Red Riding hood wearing her grandmother's clothes.
|
| If the sentence was honest, it'd be something more like:
|
| > Us lawyers are paid money to facilitate the VELCRO megacorp to
| make even more money. If you threaten the megacorp by misusing
| our trademark, we will sue you into the ground, no matter who you
| are, and regardless of whether it's the "right thing" or not.
| burrish wrote:
| >Incorrect: I just bought some velcro shoes!
|
| >Correct: I just bought some self-fastening shoes!
|
| I will never say that
| Findecanor wrote:
| In many other languages it is called "burdock tape" after the
| plant whose burrs was the inspiration behind the invention of
| velcro.
| tmtvl wrote:
| I'm just gonna call it "burtape" from now on. Easier to say
| than "hook-and-loop".
| mrangle wrote:
| Imagine launching a campaign aimed at reducing brand dominance.
|
| My n=1 experience is that when shopping for "hook and loop"
| strips online, I make sure that they are actual Velcro.
|
| Beyond useless, I think that the attempt is misguided.
| docdeek wrote:
| No problem in France - the generic term for Velcro here is
| 'scratch'.
| entropie wrote:
| Klettverschluss in germany.
|
| Klett comes from Arctium a plant with similar features (I
| guess) and verschluss is like the english term fastener or
| clasp.
| dvh wrote:
| Suchy zips in Slovak (lit. Dry zipper)
| jraph wrote:
| Many people in France say velcro though.
| bee_rider wrote:
| It is an interesting page because
|
| * on the face of it, they are reminding people to not use their
| brand in a generic sense
|
| * they also loaded it up with cutesy language. Maybe it is the
| most "meme-able" stuff legal would approve. "Don't talk about me"
| is the best way to get talked about.
| herghost wrote:
| Compare with "Prosecco" recently starting an advertising campaign
| on the London Underground[0] telling people to stop calling
| whatever generic, non-region protected sparkling wine they're
| drinking "Prosecco" because Prosecco is DOC protected.
|
| Seems to me (despite the almost certainly valid legal points in
| the comments here) that the Velcro one is a bit tongue-in-cheek
| whereas I was slightly taken aback at how direct and earnest the
| Prosecco one seemed.
|
| Net result will be the same though, I suspect.
|
| [0] https://euroweeklynews.com/2023/12/26/italy-warns-britons-
| to...
| elaus wrote:
| I think the two videos from Velcro really hit the right spot
| between fun and educational.
|
| I started watching the first video with a large amount of
| skepticism (soulless company paying millions to create viral
| video about something I couldn't care less about), but I really
| couldn't help but like both the videos and the company itself
| more now. Well done, I guess.
| blagie wrote:
| Pro-tip: I work very hard to help make generic the trademarks of
| corporations I think are evil (and vice-versa for ones I like).
|
| It's a free, cheap, and easy way to fight back.
|
| To the great annoyance of many, I even usually google for things
| with DuckDuckGo. :)
| elmimmo wrote:
| Transformers do not transform but convert in Hasbro's marketing
| and licensed materials, and strictly speaking they're not even
| supposed to be Transformers but Transformers robots (which
| grammatically is wrong, but alas). Except, for whatever valid
| reason, inside the fiction, where Transformers becomes a
| perfectly valid noun they refer themselves with and they do
| transform, not convert, all day long. I don't get it.
| bitwize wrote:
| The decision to avoid use of the verb "to transform" is recent
| (2000s or 2010s), and probably due to legal troubles Hasbro's
| lawyers don't want to get into again. Recent Transformers media
| do eschew the usage of "transform" as a verb, preferring
| "convert" or "change form" instead. The part (organ?) that
| Cybertronians have that facilitates changing shape also had its
| name changed, from "transformation cog" in G1 to "conversion
| cog" in the War for Cybertron game. And Optimus Prime saying
| "Autobots, transform and roll out!" has gone the way of Mario
| saying "Yahoo!" (Nintendo feared trademark suits from the
| internet company Yahoo!).
|
| The funny thing is, back in the days when Transformers
| transformed, their rivals the GoBots converted.
| pointlessone wrote:
| > you diminish the importance of our brand and our lawyers lose
| their _insert fastening sound._
|
| I understand why they're doing it and maybe in 2017 general mood
| was a bit different but right now there are people who would
| absolutely love to diminish the importance of a brand or two
| first thing in the morning even before their coffee. And they're
| giving them ideas for free.
| Lornedon wrote:
| I'm not a lawyer, and I'm confused.
|
| Do they lose their trademark if it gets used generically, or if
| they don't try to prevent that? Because common sense would imply
| the former, but then this video would just be a big admission
| that they already lost, no?
|
| "Everywhere you go, you see this scratchy, hairy fastener and you
| say 'Hey, that's velcro!'"
| KMnO4 wrote:
| You lose the right to defend your trademark if you don't make
| an effort to defend your trademark.
|
| If 3M comes out with their own hook-and-loop fastener and calls
| it "3M Velcro", the court would say "you can't sue 3M over this
| since you clearly don't care when people say Velcro". This
| whole video is just to establish precedent.
| JohnFen wrote:
| You have to remember the purpose of trademarks -- they aren't
| primarily intended to benefit the trademark holder, they're
| intended as a consumer protection thing.
|
| The idea is that you can rely on the name/packaging/etc. to
| actually indicate that the product was made by who you think it
| was made by.
|
| If a trademark becomes generic enough, then it stops serving
| that purpose and so is no longer able to serve its protective
| function.
| jeffrallen wrote:
| In French c'est "le scratch".
|
| Better than hook and loop!
|
| PS: https://youtu.be/ZLWMQLMiTPk?feature=shared&t=111
| gumby wrote:
| << Velcro >> is just roughly short for "hook (and) loop" in
| French (Velour et crochet -- velvet and hook). So why not use the
| abbreviation? Trademarking it is like trademarking any common
| word, like Windows.
|
| Actually I do have some sympathy; from working at Xerox I somehow
| was convinced to say "photocopy" (not that anyone uses either
| expression any more). And I always say "web search" because I
| don't want to endorse or encourage the use of google.
| cratermoon wrote:
| HoLo?
| ranting-moth wrote:
| No, they're usually high.
| sangnoir wrote:
| > So why not use the abbreviation?
|
| HooLoo? I think another company may object to that name.
| fragmede wrote:
| Hulu, the video streaming company, doesn't do much in the
| textiles/garmeny industry, and would have little trademark
| claim to the name used in a different industry.
| Tagbert wrote:
| Unless they were Monster Incorporated, makers of expensive,
| gold-plated cables with a history of seeing anyone who uses
| "monster" in a product name regardless of commercial
| industry.
| rel wrote:
| Reminds me tangentially of this great recreation of a
| deposition: https://youtu.be/PZbqAMEwtOE
| milsorgen wrote:
| I say bing it just to go against the grain. There was a time
| when people thought twice upon hearing it but now most people
| inherently understand the phrase which is mildly amusing.
| compiler-guy wrote:
| "Velcro" wasn't a common word, and was not short for "hook and
| loop" when the company trademarked it. They coined the term.
|
| They are desperately trying to make it _not_ the abbreviation
| this comment claims it to be. Quite like "kleenex" in that way.
|
| Normal people generally shouldn't care what the company's legal
| team wants or thinks--this campaign certainly doesn't stop me
| from using the term generically--but if the company defends its
| trademark in this way, it can extend the time _other_
| _companies_ can use it as a generic description of what it
| does.
| Fatnino wrote:
| Based on nothing but my gut:
|
| Velcro is the right word.
|
| Xerox is acceptable but not what I reach for first.
|
| Kleenex just sounds wrong. It's tissue and always has been.
|
| Maybe it's a regional thing? NorCal.
| Fuzzwah wrote:
| Of course it's a regional thing. There's many examples from
| around the world. For many in Britain "hoover" is
| synonymous with vacuum cleaners, and "tannoy' for loud
| speaker / public address system.
| krisoft wrote:
| In hungary the brand name of KUKA (of orange robot arm
| fame) become genericized to mean any kind of trash bin. I
| heard it happened because they produced the first widely
| used garbage trucks in Hungary and they had their brand
| name written on the trucks (or perhaps even on the
| garbage cans, depending on where you read the story). So
| much so that the garbage trucks are called "kukas auto",
| and the profession of garbage collection itself is just
| called "kukas".
|
| A long long time ago I built a robot out of a garbage can
| to celebrate this weird connection:
| https://youtu.be/LFD63moEUkw?si=qDQ54dVNIvOG8nrM
| gumby wrote:
| > Velcro" wasn't a common word, and was not short for "hook
| and loop" when the company trademarked it. They coined the
| term.
|
| You're arguing against a claim I didn't make. I simply said
| it's an abbreviation for a French phrase (the inventor was a
| French speaking swiss). Contractions of this sort are more
| common in French than straight acronyms, which tend to be
| more common in English. I didn't say it was some pre-existing
| word.
| FrustratedMonky wrote:
| Great. Hope this is real. I'd be impressed if the real lawyers
| did this.
|
| There was a follow up video, also good
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLWMQLMiTPk
| alentred wrote:
| Funnily enough, even though vel-cro is a combination of two words
| in French (velour crochet), most people in France call it just
| "scratch" (as per the sound it makes).
| tuetuopay wrote:
| I'm french and you taught me something today (velours-crochet),
| as I always called it scratch.
| kube-system wrote:
| That's pretty damn creative as far as trademarks go. "Apple"
| and "Windows" were just borrowed completely.
| xbar wrote:
| Velcro that. I intend to velcro velcro for the velcroing future.
| Nifty3929 wrote:
| I think this is one of those weird cases where they have to tell
| you the opposite of what they actually want, for legal reasons.
|
| I think VELCRO(r) actually DOES want everybody to use their name
| the way it is commonly used - it's good for brand recognition.
|
| But legally, retaining control of their brand requires them to
| clearly defend it from such generic use. This post is an example
| of that. If someone is using their brand in a way they don't want
| (like on a product not made by them), they can win a trademark
| case in court by pointing to posts like this.
| acyou wrote:
| Ding ding ding. They even throw their lawyers under the bus,
| saying that they are discouraging use of the term Velcro for
| the purpose of legal defense of their valuable Velcro
| trademark. Did this gain any real traction at any point?
| janci wrote:
| Same as LEGO brick controversy. Supposedly the bricks are not
| Legos, LEGOs and certainly not legos. At least per their legal
| dept.
| ajcp wrote:
| I think it's a North American thing to call anything LEGO
| "Legos", denoting that it is a thing made up of many pieces
| of "Lego" right? In Europe if you pointed to a LEGO set or a
| pile of LEGO pieces every response you'd get would be "that's
| LEGO". But then again in Europe, or at least in Germany, we
| had many different brands to choose from for the same kind of
| construction play, whereas in North America it seemed like
| it's just LEGO.
| qingcharles wrote:
| I agree, in the UK I never heard them referred to as
| "Legos" and only ever heard that in American media. It
| always felt like one of those sloppy contractions Americans
| use, like "Do you wanna go with?" and "I'll write him"
| JohnFen wrote:
| There are several different brands of LEGO-compatible
| bricks in the US. In practice, though, the bricks are
| called "legos" generically, whether they're LEGO or not.
| bena wrote:
| Yes, the people who say "Lego" is the "correct" plural are
| also wrong according to the document they cite for that
| opinion.
|
| The Lego Group's material says that you are never to use Lego
| as a noun. It's always "Lego bricks", "Lego sets", "Lego
| minifigures", etc.
|
| Colloquially, they don't really care what you call them,
| plural or singular.
| NegativeK wrote:
| There's a middle ground between not having enough brand
| recognition and losing control over your trademark to the point
| where it becomes generic.
|
| Defending and suing helps keep it in the middle ground, but
| they're not going to sue Pat on the street for misusing the
| word -- which is where generic comes from, right?
| 8jef wrote:
| And that explains why lawyers will never get love or sympathy
| from most living creatures. They'll always have to sue for
| getting any kind of consideration. In my ideal world, they don't
| exist at all, or they're called mediators.
|
| But let's be clear: this is an ad. And ad folks are the worst,
| worst than lawyer, just a notch above dirt. And btw, not buying
| velcro products anymore.
| hx8 wrote:
| What exactly is so awful about this advertisement that it will
| cause you to never buy a product? It seemed super normal to me,
| do you just never buy products that advertise, or buy products
| that advertise using actors playing a lawyer?
| cratermoon wrote:
| That ship has (mostly) sailed, but companies have lost their
| brand rights for failing to police uses. Did you know Aspirin was
| once a brand name for the acetylsalicylic acid product Bayer
| invented?
| aidenn0 wrote:
| For those who haven't seen it before: If both surfaces you are
| fastening together are (relatively) rigid, then mushroom-head
| fasteners (e.g. 3M Dual Lock) have many advantages over hook-and-
| loop fasteners.
| 1-6 wrote:
| Ok, I'll just find a hippier word to use to describe "hook and
| loop" so Velcro will lose their relevance.
| CannisterFlux wrote:
| In Spanish it's officially "velcro" from the French abbreviation
| https://dle.rae.es/velcro and no alternative. About as generic as
| you get.
|
| Speaking of velcro shoes, I inherited some velcro fastening
| trainers because my eldest kid felt he'd grown out of using them
| (he has the same size foot as me). I feel very self conscious
| wearing them in public because _nobody_ wears velcro trainers. In
| the 6 months I 've had them, I've been keeping an eye out in a
| busy European city, and I've seen just 1 person and that was a
| sort of work uniform shoe some guy had. Nobody has "fashion"
| velcro shoes. They do look kinda goofy I suppose.
| satisfice wrote:
| I'm going to say it more now.
| compiler-guy wrote:
| If you've never seen the video ad that went along with this
| campaign, it's hilarious and worth watching, as is the follow up.
| I love the good humor about the whole thing. And it has made
| their campaign stick in ways that other similar campaigns have
| not.
|
| https://youtu.be/rRi8LptvFZY?si=nfzpn2DDngeyyETN
|
| https://youtu.be/ZLWMQLMiTPk?si=28csS65KpQyoFrEn
| block_dagger wrote:
| Imagine if OpenAI had named ChatGPT something that rolled off the
| tongue like Velcro. Missed opportunity.
| layer8 wrote:
| It's still memorable in at least one language:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/ChatGPT/comments/158e8os/in_case_an...
| whatgoodisaroad wrote:
| There's a straussian dynamic at work here where the company wants
| to informally encourage generic use of their brand, but must also
| formally defend proper use of their brand for legal reasons.
| Courts need to see you at least appear to defend yourself.
| ivanche wrote:
| In Serbia we never say Velcro but thistle stripe (burdock
| stripe). Interestingly enough, we say gilette for razor and
| digitron for calculator.
| msikora wrote:
| Probably different with Velcro, but in the case of Google
| wouldn't the term "google it" which just really means "search it
| on the internet" be extremely helpful? Helpful in ways very
| different from velcro or gilette (in many countries generic term
| for 'razor')
| readyplayernull wrote:
| Trademarks that have conflict with common use words should have
| their vowels randomized: crovel, eppla, zonama, tema, etc.
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