[HN Gopher] TU Berlin Scientists Hack Tesla Autopilot and Discov...
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TU Berlin Scientists Hack Tesla Autopilot and Discover Secret Elon-
Mode
Author : thenaturalist
Score : 85 points
Date : 2023-12-27 13:03 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (t3n.de)
(TXT) w3m dump (t3n.de)
| thenaturalist wrote:
| Presented live right now at:
| https://streaming.media.ccc.de/37c3/granville/hls
|
| Will be available online via https://media.ccc.de/
| acheong08 wrote:
| It's in German. TL;DR: Elon Mode allows auto pilot without hands
| on steering (maybe other safety features disabled as well?)
|
| Dear Elon, Just hire a driver. It's safer
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Ehh, Elon can afford to self insure. That's what the wealth and
| this code path enables. Human driver could hit and kill someone
| too.
|
| If he gets a slap on the wrist, Tesla will build and release
| "Elon builds" to his VIN(s) only, preventing reverse
| engineering or decompiling. This is trivial for an org of
| Tesla's engineering resources (based on known public info about
| their release and canary pipeline, ability to target builds by
| VIN/vintage, etc).
| amluto wrote:
| If he gets a slap in the forehead by the side of a truck that
| he drives into at 80mph, no amount of self insurance will
| keep him alive.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Life is about choices. Make poor choices, experience
| potentially poor outcomes.
|
| (130k+ miles driven on Autopilot, no stranger to system
| limitations)
| netsharc wrote:
| Well, if he sits behind the wheel of a car like he runs
| Twitter... maybe time to change a few things for my 2024
| bets.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| What if he hurts other people? Those considerations are
| also part of life.
| elric wrote:
| Fuck anyone who thinks that wealth should enable one to
| willingly endanger other road users.
|
| I don't care if people want to drive dangerously (handsfree
| or otherwise) or if they want to test experimental features.
| But the minute they become a danger to other people, they can
| fuck right off the road. I'm sure Elon can afford to build a
| private road somewhere where he can do whatever he wants.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| The wealth doesn't enable it, it simply pays for the
| consequences. Plenty of poor and middle class people who
| willingly put others in harms way every day (DUIs,
| distracted driving, etc), they just have nothing to take or
| minimal wealth to confiscate for doing so.
|
| You're mad at Elon for letting the robot take the wheel,
| but he can pay for the harm you think he's causing (real or
| not). 26% of Floridians have no auto insurance, for
| example. Creditor law protects their homes and retirement
| accounts (without limit in most cases!) from seizure (if
| applicable). When they cause harm (intentionally,
| willingly, or otherwise), the counterparty is simply
| fucked. What are we going to do about those people? Same as
| Elon: nothing. At least FSD hasn't killed anyone like your
| average human driver does every day.
|
| I don't condone the risk appetite, but I understand it.
|
| https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/traffic-crash-death-
| est...
|
| https://www.tesladeaths.com/
| jacquesm wrote:
| No, the wealth _does_ enable it: if wealth allows you to
| buy yourself out of irresponsible behavior then you are
| much more likely to commit that behavior if you are
| wealthy.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Whether wealth or creditor law, if you have nothing to
| lose, that is what is incentivized. This is a policy
| problem, you won't fix the human. This policy is likely
| to not change in any material way (US centric). Liability
| limits are engrained in the US, and the lability calculus
| is what drives behavior and responsibility.
| jacquesm wrote:
| You are not disagreeing then.
| KaiserPro wrote:
| wait, 26% of florida doesn't have car insurance?
|
| How are their cars not impounded? even if I'm not
| driving, if the car isnt insured, there is a chance it'll
| get impounded.
|
| moreover, if I'm caught, its a hefty fine plus points on
| my license.
| Exoristos wrote:
| They're poor, in a state with abysmal public transport.
| It's not like they're driving uninsured for kicks. So do
| you think the state of Florida wants to lose >26% of
| their workforce? Often the lowest-paid workers are the
| most essential, taken as a whole anyway.
| lesuorac wrote:
| There's a chance it'll get impounded if you get pulled
| over or something and a cop checks your (lack of)
| insurance. I imagine that's a rare scenario for
| Floridians; otherwise the rate would approach 0%.
|
| Everybody (ex. [1]) seems to point to IRC [2] but they
| seem to say around 20% and I think the actual study is
| paywalled.
|
| Whats really interesting is it sounds like in Florida you
| insure yourself and if you receive an injury then you
| file a claim against your own insurance who then pays
| you. As opposed to receiving a payment from the person
| who hit you.
|
| > [1] Instead of mandating BI insurance, Florida requires
| drivers to purchase personal injury protection (PIP)
| insurance and property damage insurance. An injured
| driver is often limited to making a claim against his or
| her own PIP coverage. The coverage pays 80% of medical
| bills and 60% of lost wages, up to $10,000.
|
| [1]: https://www.rite4justice.com/what-you-need-to-know-
| about-uni... [2]: https://insurance-research.org/
| renewiltord wrote:
| LOL people are such suckers. It's not called Elon Mode in the
| software, my dudes. That's what people who discovered this
| debug mode are calling it. HN is peak gullibility.
| upon_drumhead wrote:
| Previously discovered in June of 2023
|
| https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/20/23767041/tesla-hacker-elo...
| calin2k wrote:
| can be rewatched here
| https://streaming.media.ccc.de/37c3/relive/12144
| Havoc wrote:
| Seems to contain 3 highlights:
|
| They got a PCB/component from the US.
|
| 1) Elon mode per article is handfree minus the keep your hands on
| wheel stuff. Article clearly says "confirming" existence, rather
| than claiming this is a new discovery
|
| 2) They pulled video off the component - random vid from whatever
| the components past life in US was I guess
|
| 3) They got some sort of insight into what sort of data is
| streamed back to tesla HQ. No details
|
| They appear to have pulled this off an unspecified PCB component
| out of a tesla using "600 EUR" worth of gear, which to me
| suggests Tesla stores stuff locally unencrypted. Not an issue I
| guess but still interesting
| rossdavidh wrote:
| Interesting, but:
|
| 1) it's his company, so did anyone doubt that he could have it
| work differently if he wanted? only interesting thing would be
| that you can hack your own Tesla to work this way, but it's not
| like this would be very common.
|
| 2) the stored data is interesting, but probably not as alarming
| as what your smartphone company has available
|
| I'm not saying it's not interesting, I'm just saying it's not as
| interesting as lots of other stuff about both Tesla and lots of
| other tech companies, that we already knew.
| Quarrel wrote:
| > it's his company, so did anyone doubt that he could have it
| work differently if he wanted?
|
| I think it is more, he's a narcissist, so of course it is named
| after Elon.
|
| I can't imagine anyone doubted they'd tested a mode that was
| closer to full-auto than they'd released.
| mewpmewp2 wrote:
| In software it's not really called "Elon". Whoever
| discovered/published decided to call it like that.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| > it's his company
|
| It's the shareholders' company, and there are many other
| stakeholders besides them.
| londons_explore wrote:
| I suspect there are easier ways to trick the driver monitoring.
| For example, fake the steering and interior camera inputs.
| chmod775 wrote:
| > TU Berlin Scientists Hack Tesla Autopilot and Discover Secret
| Elon-Mode
|
| They merely confirmed it exists as they went about other things.
| This wasn't the bulk of their work at all.
|
| Terrible headline and article.
|
| Better to watch the original talk:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38785553
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(page generated 2023-12-27 23:01 UTC)