[HN Gopher] Resetting the Timer in My Toothbrush
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Resetting the Timer in My Toothbrush
Author : surprisetalk
Score : 112 points
Date : 2023-12-24 11:06 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (nonnullish.pages.dev)
(TXT) w3m dump (nonnullish.pages.dev)
| Gys wrote:
| Elaborate discussion 6 months ago:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36128617
| NAR8789 wrote:
| Previous article had to sniff the NFC password when the handle
| connected to the head. New article has a convenient form to
| generate password.
|
| How did they reverse the brush head password algorithm?
|
| https://youtu.be/EPytrn8i8sc "Hacking the Phillips Sonicare NFC
| Password" (buried three links deep)
| dylan604 wrote:
| Is using a screen capture software expensive or difficult to
| do? In 2023, why would someone not use one instead of hand
| holding a phone to record so that every time they look away,
| the phone bounces and makes whatever they are showing on the
| screen impossible to read?
| vinnymac wrote:
| Most people I personally know would reach for a phone to
| record a video.
|
| They are simply more familiar with it, and while some may
| be aware screen capture exists, it usually requires some
| setup, and knowledge of a macro.
| Timothee wrote:
| It's a bit frustrating for how much time is spent showing a
| screen.
|
| However, making the same video with screen capture would
| require a good amount of editing to also show the
| toothbrush. Here everything seems to be in one take. I
| don't blame him; as easy as it is now, editing is still
| time consuming.
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| I think these consumer-hostile devices and brands need to be
| named and shamed and ideally, some kind of consumer movement to
| boycott them. Unfortunately, too many people either don't care or
| believe that they want that functionality.
| rplnt wrote:
| It's not really hostile in this particular case. It beeps a few
| times when the status changes and then just displays led in
| amber instead of green.
|
| It is kinda sad how much effort went into this "functionality",
| how much it increases the cost of the device, but selling
| replacement heads is their primary business. Maybe the brushes
| would be more expensive without the NFC reader and timers.
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| Just changing the colour of an LED seems okay to me. I'm
| thinking more of the HP school of business where the
| toothbrush would stop working until the correct proprietary
| brush was replaced.
| nolongerthere wrote:
| Yea I have this toothbrush too, I also noticed the weird IC
| on the bottom of the brush head when I first bought it, I
| nearly correctly surmised what it did, was a little upset
| at the prospect of being forced to buy a new head when
| Phillips decided it was time, but it turns out it doesn't
| really do anything, it buzzes a few times at the end of
| brushing when it thinks it's time. And the LED changes
| color... who cares...
|
| The recommendation generally is to replace your tooth brush
| semi-annually, which this basically reminds you to do.
| maxerickson wrote:
| A lot of recommendations are every 3 to 4 months.
| leipert wrote:
| I mean at 360 minutes, it's every 90 days if you do two 2
| minute sessions every day.
| e40 wrote:
| I have never seen the reminder because I guess I change
| the heads before they detect it is time. I always notice
| a big difference in function when I do.
| royal__ wrote:
| Yes this. It's not like the entire tooth brush stops working.
| Also, if you've used the brush for so long, it may very well
| be time to replace the head for the sake of oral hygiene. The
| most consumer unfriendly thing about these toothbrushes is
| just how expensive the heads are.
| crazygringo wrote:
| Honestly, I appreciate it. Brushes really do wear out and
| clean less effectively over time, and as a user you don't
| really notice it -- frog in a boiling pot and everything.
|
| But every time I swap brush heads after it reminds me, you
| can feel how much more effective the stiffer bristles are.
|
| It's not like razor blades where it becomes really obvious
| from tugging that they need to be replaced. Brushes just
| slowly get softer and, if you're like me, you just don't
| notice.
| blowski wrote:
| It just reminds me of the David Mitchell / Robert Webb
| sketch about "for the first time in history, people are
| taking orders from their toothbrush".
| alt227 wrote:
| "If we tell them to, do you really think they will brush
| their tongues?"
|
| https://youtu.be/ltZrfrmb7Ws
| MereInterest wrote:
| > It beeps a few times when the status changes
|
| Every time I turn it off, the Philips Sonicare plays a loud
| series of beeps, near my head, at times of day when I'm just
| waking up or about to sleep, for a toothbrush head that is
| well within its lifespan.
|
| The only supported way to stop the beeping is to throw out
| the current toothbrush head, and pay Philips more money for a
| replacement that isn't needed yet.
| rplnt wrote:
| > Every time I turn it off, the Philips Sonicare plays a
| loud series of beeps
|
| OK, that is annoying. Mine doesn't do that. I only got the
| annoying beeps a few times around the time the timer
| expired. Ever since only the different color light.
| nkurz wrote:
| > The only supported way to stop the beeping is to throw
| out the current toothbrush head
|
| Are you sure? On mine, the manual shows how to turn off the
| "Brush head replacement reminder": https://www.documents.ph
| ilips.com/assets/20201024/46fe48eae7... (p.16-17). Might
| your model have a similar feature?
| cesaref wrote:
| I don't have this problem with my manual toothbrush. I've
| never needed to recharge it's batteries either.
| PreInternet01 wrote:
| I'm not sure what you mean by "every time I turn it off",
| or "loud series of beeps"... Are you sure you have an
| actual Sonicare? Because that doesn't need to be turned off
| after brushing (the cycle ends itself), nor is it capable
| of producing beeps that could be described as anywhere near
| "loud".
|
| In any case, the user manual that helpfully ships with
| every genuine Sonicare, and is also easily accessible
| online, succinctly describes the steps to disable the
| beeping:
|
| 1. Put the handle on the plugged-in charger. 2. Press and
| hold the power on/off button while the handle remains on
| the charger. 3. Keep the power on/off button pressed until
| you hear a series of two short beeps (after 4-5 seconds).
| 4. Release the power on/off button.
|
| But, as an actual Sonicare owner: when it beeps for
| replacement, the head is truly overdue for that. In fact, I
| synced the replacement schedule of my manual toothbrush
| (which sees an equivalent duty cycle in my case), and every
| time I look at both brushes, I have to admit: yup, those
| need replacement!
| atoav wrote:
| As an electrical engineer I want to just remind everybody
| that firmware can differ wildly between countries and
| even within one series depending on when it was deployed.
|
| You discuss this as if it was one static unchanging
| thing, when it is likely at least 10-20 different things.
| mynameisvlad wrote:
| As a person thinking through this logically I just want
| to remind everybody that all that adds extra cost and
| effort and no company is going to do that unless they
| have to. _Could_ a new firmware have been released mid-
| cycle? Sure. _Could_ the firmware somewhere else in the
| world differ? Sure.
|
| Is it likely that either is the case? Probably not. If
| anything, they would make a new firmware as part of a
| product launch.
| jrockway wrote:
| > nor is it capable of producing beeps
|
| I mean, the whole device is basically a speaker. It can
| beep if it wants to.
| atoav wrote:
| For me such an experience puts that manufacturer on my
| blacklist. I will never buy anything from them again,
| unless they managed to convince me that they changed their
| whole shtick.
|
| There are many brand names on there, but hey, I am doing
| fine.
| jrockway wrote:
| You do have to eventually replace your toothbrush head,
| though. You are grinding down the brush bristles with
| polishing compound ("toothpaste") every time you brush
| your teeth.
| blacksmith_tb wrote:
| More expensive because they couldn't annoy you into buying as
| many brush heads? It's sort of the subscription vs. software
| license debate all over again, but in our mouths... I will
| admit to using my brush heads past the time when Philips
| 'helpfully' starts nagging me to replace them, and it was
| sort of satisfying to see this reset work. It also got me
| looking around and I see people pop the NFC rings loose from
| old heads to reuse them as NFC tags, which is fun, I will
| have to harvest a few of those (I do eventually retire mine
| and use them for scrubbing etc.)
| fsmv wrote:
| It is Phillips Sonicare doing this. It says on the password
| generator site the blog links to. It's a wonder that someone
| managed to crack the NFC password for all models.
| xnzakg wrote:
| Apparently someone reverse engineered the firmware[0] to find
| it.
|
| I don't see how they could easily change the password, except
| for perhaps using a custom tag that would only allow
| incrementing the values with the existing password (which
| would negate the point of changing the password). Otherwise
| it would lock existing brushes out of saving the time too.
| This, combined with how 99% of the users won't be tevh-savvy
| enough to know how to write to the tag, means there's
| probably not gonna be any change until they come up with a
| new incompatible type of brushes.
|
| [0]: https://kuenzi.dev/toothbrush/#update-august-16-2023
| epcoa wrote:
| Where do you get the impression there was firmware reversal
| involved? All I see is sniffing of the RF and the
| observation it's all plaintext.
| anticrymactic wrote:
| Very far from hostile. I have this toothbrush and the only
| thing it does is beep ONCE, when it thinks the head is done.
| After that I will only show the "please change" indicator, but
| will still brush just fine.
|
| I was actually shocked by how user _friendly_ the whole
| experience is. It never prevented me from doing anything "not
| recommended", it'll warn me, sure. But then go right back to
| accepting my imput.
| drewg123 wrote:
| Very much unlike my hostile GE fridge, which will refuse to
| dispense ice and water after a grace period expires when the
| water filter is too old.
| bbarnett wrote:
| Old filters can become breeding grounds for bacteria, as
| they can build up biological contaminants over time. The
| more biological contamination, the more for bacteria to
| feed on.
|
| So there is a health danger, perhaps? Not sure how likely.
|
| (Some municipalities use a lot of UV, and less chlorine and
| other chemicals to kill bacteria. And people on wells
| generally have no chlorine. In such cases, there is nothing
| to slow standing water bacterial growth.)
| bigallen wrote:
| That is a great risk that I, a conscious, responsible
| human being with agency, should be in charge of managing.
| Not my fridge
| bosie wrote:
| How do you as a responsible human with agency manage thi?
| bbarnett wrote:
| I agree. But we have members of our society which will
| sue, even if they are told upon purchase to be careful.
|
| So I suspect they are concerned about liability.
| crazygringo wrote:
| No. In the same way you shouldn't be in charge of
| managing whether your electrical devices can electrocute
| you.
|
| When it comes to actual safety issues, it's better that
| things not work when unsafe.
|
| Not too long ago there was a story on HN about hospital
| patients getting sick from bacterial growth in ice
| machines.
|
| And water filters are breeding grounds for bacteria.
| That's actually the main reason for replacing your Brita
| filter every 3 months, not its filtering efficacy.
| jrockway wrote:
| You're at a friends house. They offer you a glass of
| water. Do you drink it? Do you inspect the filter for
| biological debris first, and then accept it? If you
| don't, and you get sick, who compensates you for lost
| wages? Who compensates your insurance company for the
| doctor's visit? I think this is, realistically, a complex
| situation.
|
| Having said that, I'm not sure why a filter is needed. Is
| your tap water not already filtered enough?
| constantly wrote:
| "You might have noticed the color of the brush head changing
| throughout of this post. This is because I had to run out and buy
| a new one after getting locked out of the first one."
|
| The concept of getting locked out of one's toothbrush head is so
| absurd it might as well be dystopian.
| beebeepka wrote:
| What's there to be locked out of? I've this brown diode
| blinking for half an year. Are they disabling the vibrator?
| oasisaimlessly wrote:
| > [We] can see that the tag is configured to permanently
| disable all write access after three wrong password attempts.
| (Which I promptly exceeded when playing around) This means
| that not even the toothbrush handle itself can write to this
| head again.
| tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
| What happens in that case? Does the toothbrush
| misbehave/consider the brush beyond its lifespan, or is it
| a convenient way to disable this feature?
| pests wrote:
| Just disable the feature the way the manufacture
| instructs instead of this random hacking? Why pull out
| all the engineering tools when the step by step is in the
| manual?
| lights0123 wrote:
| It didn't mention that the toothbrush failed to keep
| vibrating, just that the toothbrush head lost its function
| as a writable NFC tag.
| jrockway wrote:
| I think that's a symptom of buying off-the-shelf NFC hardware.
| They all lock you out after some small number of incorrect
| attempts to guess the password, because some security
| researcher noticed how easy it was to try every password and
| people stopped buying their stuff if they didn't have this
| feature.
|
| This equipment is not necessary for a toothbrush "minutes used"
| counter, but unfortunately, there is no off-the-shelf
| alternative.
| PerryUlyssesCox wrote:
| The orange light on the toothbrush comes on after three months to
| remind you to change it - it's only slightly annoying but this
| worked perfectly to reset it.
| NegativeLatency wrote:
| It's better for your mouth/teeth to change the brush, it's not
| really visible but there's a difference in how effective an old
| brush is at plaque removal compared to a new one.
| kanapala wrote:
| It doesn't work for me :( 04:1C:C9:AA:BE:12:91 23041911K
| PerryUlyssesCox wrote:
| You need to include the space (230419 11K)
| sintezcs wrote:
| Hmm. The article says that after 360 minutes of use, it will tell
| you to replace. A regular tooth cleaning cycle is 2 minutes. So
| it's 4 minutes for morning plus evening. 360/4=90 days..usually I
| replace my toothbrush head every 2-3 months, and I think this is
| what dentists also recommend. Why would I ever want to reset this
| counter?
| I_Am_Nous wrote:
| How long before you are ingesting significant amounts of
| microplastics from the bristles dissolving?
| resoluteteeth wrote:
| If that's an issue I suppose you could brush your teeth,
| rinse your mouth, and then use a fluoride mouthwash like act
| contingencies wrote:
| IIRC mouthwash has been debunked as a post-brush routine
| and is better deployed post sugar consumption in lieu of
| immediate brushing.
|
| https://nypost.com/2021/07/13/dentist-warns-to-never-use-
| mou... https://askthedentist.com/mouthwash-risks-and-
| alternatives/ https://www.rd.com/article/health-danger-
| mouthwash/
| hnarn wrote:
| Categorical statements like these are infuriating. What
| has been "debunked" is that you should not use mouth wash
| that has a lower fluoride content than the toothpaste you
| used right before, or mouth wash that is anti-bacterial.
|
| Not all mouthwashes and toothpastes are equal, therefore
| this categorical statement is wrong, and nothing has been
| "debunked".
|
| The mouth wash I use is the one recommended by my
| dentist, it is not anti bacterial and it has 0.2%
| fluoride.
|
| The last article you posted simply lies:
|
| > Mouthwash contains an antiseptic compound called
| chlorhexidine.
|
| No it doesn't. Not all mouthwash contains that. I
| recognize it though, because it's what I use as an
| antiseptic alcohol to clean bruises.
| TheSpiceIsLife wrote:
| Chlorhexidine isn't an alcohol.
|
| Why would a bruise need cleaning? A bruise is always
| caused by internal bleeding into the interstitial tissues
| which does not break through the skin.
| panarky wrote:
| The fact that the device manufacturer profits by selling a
| replacement part is not evidence that the part does not need
| replacement.
| userbinator wrote:
| Microplastics should be the least of your concerns. You
| ingest far more reactive substances just from food and
| breathing.
| NegativeLatency wrote:
| Yeah the bristles wear out after use, cool images of new vs
| used from an electron microscope:
| https://youtu.be/cwN983PnJoA?si=2M0XEvND_VDqfcKO
| jbverschoor wrote:
| Toothpaste is grit 600-800 omg that's really rough, but it's
| Colgate and I know that's very abrasive. I just never knew
| the equivalent in grit.
|
| I actually use a toothpaste with low RDA (abrasiveness) of
| 40-48. (VITIS)
|
| List of RDA values:
| https://www.familydentisttree.com/abrasive-toothpaste-
| whats-...
| aaronbrethorst wrote:
| Me, dumb: I change my Sonicare toothbrush head whenever it tells
| me to. I haven't had a cavity in 8 years.
|
| You, a clever toothbrush-hacking genius: haha, the head is new
| again!
| jbverschoor wrote:
| I'm more interested in getting the mouse cursor on my machine
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