[HN Gopher] Lapsus$: GTA 6 hacker handed indefinite hospital order
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Lapsus$: GTA 6 hacker handed indefinite hospital order
Author : ode
Score : 102 points
Date : 2023-12-21 17:14 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.co.uk)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.co.uk)
| Racing0461 wrote:
| > indefinite hospital order
|
| does this actually mean life?
| htk wrote:
| You can try reading the article:
|
| "He will remain at a secure hospital for life unless doctors
| deem him no longer a danger."
| fermentation wrote:
| They've got a long life ahead of them. Surely with actual
| care they would be released at some point right?
| fb03 wrote:
| His life is in someone else's hands now, and will be for as
| long as the government wants. He might be fully
| reabilitated and regret his actions and they can still
| write him off as completely nuts with a simple signature in
| a document - and no one will put the doctor's statement
| through scrutiny.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| Stuff like this is why I'm glad Ken Kessey's "one flew over the
| cuckoos nest" become popular and helped remove government mental
| hospitals from being a serious consideration in the USA.
|
| This kid needs to be cultivated, not institutionalized.
|
| (Edit: never mind, seems he IS a menace to society)
| A_Duck wrote:
| The headline glosses over "The court heard that Kurtaj had been
| violent while in custody with dozens of reports of injury or
| property damage."
| DonHopkins wrote:
| >As well as hacking offences the boy was sentenced for what
| the judge described as "unpleasant and frightening pattern of
| stalking and harassment" of two young women.
|
| Lock him the fuck up for that misogynistic GamerGate
| bullshit.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| Oh shit, okay his sentence makes sense. Somehow I missed
| this part of the article.
| brvsft wrote:
| Are you being facetious? Stalking and harassment alone
| wouldn't justify a life sentence.
| CodesInChaos wrote:
| Isn't that part talking about the 17 year old other member
| of lapsus$ who received the 18 month long Youth
| Rehabilitation Order?
| loeg wrote:
| That sentence is not talking about the headline hacker
| (Kurtaj).
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| Custody is violence.
|
| Most people respond with patience, because they understand
| deescalation is their best move. This person has Autism. I
| think it's not a leap to conclude that he _simply doesn 't
| understand_ that deescalation is the right move. He may not
| even realize or totally comprehend that deescalation is an
| option!
|
| If you want to convince me this person is a menace to
| society, then talk about his behavior _before_ being
| arrested. What did he do then? Oh, that 's right, he shared
| video of an unreleased game... Why should I, or any other
| _person_ feel threatened?
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| I agree he doesn't understand--that's why he's in a mental
| hospital. He can't understand how to behave in society.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| Can society understand how to behave around him? Has
| society even tried?
|
| I'm not working to give up that easily. This is a
| _person_ with the rest of his life ahead of him; and that
| life has been locked in a room, and declared _his_
| responsibility.
| solomoncaygnuyo wrote:
| > If you want to convince me this person is a menace to
| society, then talk about his behavior before being
| arrested. What did he do then?
|
| He's part of a hacker group who steals data and extorts
| companies for money. And he talks about how he can't wait
| to do more crime when he gets out of lockup. It's all there
| in the article.
|
| I know, crime against big companies isn't "real crime" as
| far as many are concerned, but these companies employ real
| people, and when they take a big financial hit due to cyber
| crime like this, it can affect peoples' jobs and
| livelihood. Because the companies will choose to keep
| paying the CEO a ridiculous sum while laying off lower-
| level employees to even out the cost of the ransom (if it's
| paid) or the financial loss caused from the data leakage
| (difficult to estimate, but a material loss nonetheless
| that the bean counters will have to account for).
|
| The article also mentioned how they stole from individuals'
| crypto wallets.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| Did you miss the part about assaulting staff and property
| destruction.
|
| What about the part where he continued hacking after being
| busted the first time and released on bail.
|
| Its pretty clear that the kid poses a danger and doesn't
| understand that he needs to stop.
|
| This isn't a youthful prank/indiscretion that went too far.
| This kid was on trial for causing millions in damages, and then
| did it again while on trial.
|
| Yeah, institutionalizing people has a horrendous history, but
| this kid is incredibly destructive, and has proven that cannot
| control himself or will go out of his way to do the wrong
| thing. The only viable alternative to a supervised medical
| setting is jail for him.
| serialNumber wrote:
| being sentenced to life for hacking is out of proportion
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| He wasn't sentenced to life.
|
| He was ordered to remain under supervised medical care
| until a doctor determines that he is mentally fit to stop
| causing harm. This is as a result of both his hacking, his
| assaults on caretakers and destruction of physical
| property.
|
| He also told the court that if he was released he would go
| right back to doing crimes.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| Just because a company chooses to spend millions of dollars
| to "repair" damage does not mean that the damage itself
| should be valued the same. We are talking about companies
| with _tens or hundreds of billions of dollars_ at their
| disposal. An executive could choose to spend $5 million on
| anything: that doesn 't make the thing that valuable.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| Ok. Ignore the dollar amount.
|
| His actions have physically injured people, destroyed
| property, and caused hundreds or thousands of people to
| spend otherwise productive time on fixing things.
|
| This wasn't some hacker poking around because he could. He
| was stealing assets and then trying to ransom them back. He
| also just straight up stole crypto.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > This wasn't some hacker poking around because he could.
| He was stealing assets and then trying to ransom them
| back.
|
| If he managed to do that _using nothing more than a TV
| and an Android device_ , I have absolutely zero sympathy
| with his victims. In the end, I'd even classify that as a
| public service, getting these companies to up their
| security game at least to some standard.
|
| > He also just straight up stole crypto.
|
| And here I have even less sympathy. I have grown to hate
| anything crypto-currency with a passion, simply because
| it's even more enticing to criminals than a locked safe
| room full of diamonds.
|
| Don't get me wrong: It's still not correct what he did.
| Lock him up in prison like every other random criminal.
| But it's not "lock him up for life"-worthy, not by any
| means.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| OK, then prosecute him for those things. Theft and
| blackmail are already crimes.
|
| Don't give him a life sentence for sharing secrets. Don't
| ask me to pretend that isn't what this is about.
| keep_reading wrote:
| You see all those homeless people? The tent cities? That's
| because they have nowhere to go anymore. A ton of those people
| are mentally ill.
|
| Yes, those mental hospitals were terribly run. But we need to
| create a safe place for these people. We can't just give up
| because of mistakes made in the past.
|
| https://www.civilbeat.org/2018/06/health-beat-bring-back-the...
| theultdev wrote:
| _all those homeless_ is incredibly generalizing, there 's
| many reasons to be homeless. but the top ones are drugs and
| mental illness.
|
| many are drug addicted, they would have somewhere to go but
| they opted out of society (well, they aren't in the forest so
| not full opt-out)
|
| but yes a combination of state run rehab / mental hospitals
| seems to be the only solution, but is it done by force?
|
| if it's not forced you'll have a hell of a time getting
| people to go. if it is, you are now rounding up potentially
| unwilling people and shipping them to a facility.
| keep_reading wrote:
| > but is it done by force?
|
| Yes, of course. Do you really think most of these people
| even in the care of their own family would have complete
| agency over their lives? No, they'd be declared unfit and
| their Power of Attorney would be delegated to someone else.
| boeingUH60 wrote:
| The mental hospitals were closed. Now the mentally ill are
| largely homeless or in prison.
|
| They closed something bad and brought no alternative because
| it's easy for a politician to score points by appearing to
| solve problems in the short term but providing no long term
| solutions.
| A_Duck wrote:
| > Despite having his laptop confiscated, Kurtaj managed to breach
| Rockstar, the company behind GTA, using an Amazon Firestick, his
| hotel TV and a mobile phone.
|
| Damn! Approaching https://xkcd.com/378/ ...
| yegle wrote:
| If you have a phone with an SSH client, and access to a server,
| for many that's equivalent to having a full functioning PC for
| hacking purposes?
|
| If this is an Android phone with a rooted system (or even just
| a locked phone with Termux), you can even skip the SSH server.
|
| Not saying this is unimpressive though.
| 0cf8612b2e1e wrote:
| > The jury was told that while he was on bail for hacking Nvidia
| and BT/EE and in police protection at a Travelodge hotel, he
| continued hacking and carried out his most infamous hack.
|
| >Despite having his laptop confiscated, Kurtaj managed to breach
| Rockstar, the company behind GTA, using an Amazon Firestick, his
| hotel TV and a mobile phone.
|
| This sounds too fantastical to be true.
|
| This guy is obviously brilliant, disappointing that he squandered
| his opportunities.
| gnfargbl wrote:
| > This sounds too fantastical to be true.
|
| Use Firestick as RDP/VNC client, use mobile phone for internet,
| obtain keyboard from Amazon Shopping, remote into a VM, proceed
| as usual?
| ShamelessC wrote:
| Yeah unfortunately rather obvious considering Fire Sticks run
| android and allow you to enable remote ADB.
| 0cf8612b2e1e wrote:
| Like sure, it is technically possible he runs termux, has all
| of his hacking tools available, and is amazingly good with an
| onscreen keyboard.
|
| That being said, if this were an episode of CSI, I would be
| rolling my eyes.
| rainonmoon wrote:
| > has all of his hacking tools available
|
| So there's this wonderful program called wget.
| lemmetaste wrote:
| Yea, too bad Aaron Schwarz squandered his.
|
| It's fucked up what they did to him publicly.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| I suspect this is being brought up in an attempt to demonize
| and pump up this guy's hacking skills to reduce the
| embarrassment of targeted companies but also of police. He
| presumably was in police custody at the time and they were
| meant to deny him internet access, but weren't competent enough
| to understand that these devices can be rooted & turned into a
| general-purpose computer. Therefore, rather than admitting this
| (obvious) mistake, they're trying to make it sound like
| installing a chrooted Linux environment or RDP/SSH client on
| such a device is some advanced hacking skill.
| kreddor wrote:
| > Kurtaj managed to breach Rockstar, the company behind GTA,
| using an Amazon Firestick, his hotel TV and a mobile phone.
|
| That's quite a feat.
|
| > Rockstar Games alone told the court that the hack cost it $5m
| to recover from plus thousands of hours of staff time.
|
| Either the kid is a genius or Rockstar really don't value their
| security much. Or maybe a bit of both?
| jvanderbot wrote:
| From TFA, and given prior hacks, he's very skilled.
| imglorp wrote:
| Someone should hire him as a white hat. Maybe they have some
| kind of custodial guardianship where the employer can monitor
| him staying clean.
| CaptainOfCoit wrote:
| It's tough though, how do you know that they won't use
| those skills against you? The individual seems relatively
| unstable and violent, even saying during a sentencing
| hearing that they'll continue to do illegal breaches
| whenever they can.
|
| Would be great to have them on the "good" side, but would
| probably take a lot of energy and resources as well.
|
| Hopefully this story will have a somewhat happy ending,
| because it seems to not end yet.
| Freak_NL wrote:
| He'd need a dedicated handler, and even then judging from
| the article's portrayal he seems like a hopelessly
| unmanageable type. He'd fit in with a modern-day A-team,
| come to think of it.
| lamontcg wrote:
| Could set him to work on hacking official state enemies,
| but you'd have to expect that he'd still engage in side-
| projects against whoever pissed him off or he had
| contempt for.
| chris_wot wrote:
| It's not going to happen. He's going to be closely
| supervised in a hospital indefinitely.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| That would be interested, but is impossible as long as they
| refuse to avoid crime and state that they plan to commit
| more at the first opportunity
| make3 wrote:
| That wouldn't work, you could never trust him at all, as
| he's expressed zero remorse and actually intent to continue
| to do crime, and is apparently very strongly autistic &
| doesn't understand the complex nuances of what is
| acceptable and what is not acceptable as a white hat hacker
| hnbad wrote:
| > very strongly autistic & doesn't understand the complex
| nuances of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable
|
| This is a popular framing of autistic people but this
| assumes the problem is complex nuances. Most of the time
| it's not very nuanced at all. The problem is that
| autistic people are less likely to follow rules they
| don't agree with or see as arbitrary - in the positive
| this is sometimes described as a "strong sense of
| justice" but that phrase ignores that the perception of
| what is or isn't just or unjust can vary.
|
| Studies have actually shown what is dismissively
| described as "moral rigidity", i.e. autistic people are
| more likely to follow ethical rules they profess even
| when they believe they can get away with breaking them
| and when nobody would find out. The problem is that
| "normal" people are much more "morally flexible" and thus
| share an implicit understanding of what rules are
| important (i.e. actual rules) and which ones you're
| supposed to say you follow but aren't expected to.
| make3 wrote:
| >>> The problem is that "normal" people are much more
| "morally flexible" and thus share an implicit
| understanding of what rules are important (i.e. actual
| rules) and which ones you're supposed to say you follow
| but aren't expected to.
|
| This is exactly what I was referring to. We agree.
| hnbad wrote:
| Having seen that play out in real life before, I don't
| think he'd be as much of an asset as a liability. The
| problem with white hats is they need to have an interest in
| following some set of rules. With this guy it sounds more
| like his rule set is defined by whatever he finds
| interesting with little concern for legality or what others
| might find acceptable.
|
| It's similar to the problem with the asshole genius
| programmer. You can keep him around because he's a genius
| but being an asshole in a position of authority over others
| (by virtue of being a genius) will result in people not
| wanting to work for you and this can easily mean you're
| missing out in individuals or teams that would vastly
| outmatch the asshole genius.
| drivingmenuts wrote:
| How about the British intelligence apparatus? Seems like a
| person they would be very interested in acquiring.
| arp242 wrote:
| Also seems like the sort of person who would leak
| everything, and not just for some principled
| whistleblower reasons, but "for teh lulz" or whatever.
|
| Trust is more important than ability.
| squarefoot wrote:
| And has no empathy, which makes him a lot more dangerous.
| aszantu wrote:
| autism doesn't mean he doesn't have emotions
| 6stringmerc wrote:
| A valid diagnosis of one condition doesn't preclude a
| litany of seriously dangerous other ones, either,
| correct?
| rainonmoon wrote:
| You might as well say "He has psoriasis, he might also be
| an axe murderer." No, one fact doesn't preclude the
| existence of other facts, very good. That doesn't mean
| that making stigmatising connections is reasonable.
| rad_gruchalski wrote:
| Empathy, not emotions.
|
| Empathy: the ability to understand and share the feelings
| of another.
| squarefoot wrote:
| He may have emotions but certainly he doesn't care about
| those of others and the damage he can provoke. He
| actually _wants_ to continue to be a criminal.
|
| FTA: _A mental health assessment used as part of the
| sentencing hearing said he "continued to express the
| intent to return to cyber-crime as soon as possible. He
| is highly motivated."_
|
| The guy needs help because he's autistic, _and_ watched
| closely because he 's also a sociopath.
| gdsdfe wrote:
| shouldn't they at least try to use this kid for good instead of
| locking him up ? but then who know maybe a 3 letter gov agency
| will take him to a bunker somewhere
| dharmab wrote:
| He's violent and uncooperative:
|
| > The court heard that Kurtaj had been violent while in
| custody with dozens of reports of injury or property damage.
|
| The TLA aren't hurting for talent these days either.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| "Use" implies control / coercion, given that this guy doesn't
| seem to respect authority, that's not going to work. You
| can't _make_ anyone work for you or "do good".
| Nextgrid wrote:
| > That's quite a feat.
|
| Is it? I don't see what the big deal is in installing a
| chrooted Linux environment (or SSH/RDP client to remote into an
| external machine) in an Android device?
|
| The fact this is even mentioned really smells like they're
| trying to make this guy sound more skilled and evil than he
| really is, potentially also to cover up for the fact that the
| police made an oversight in letting him be around internet-
| connected devices even though their instructions was to not
| provide him internet/computer access.
|
| I'm not downplaying the GTA hack (although I would still bet
| good money it was typical phishing/social engineering rather
| than anything more advanced), but I'm disagreeing that him
| doing so from a rooted TV stick or phone makes him any more of
| a monster than doing so from a typical computer.
| hdjrbrbn wrote:
| To be fair: it is hard to not be around internet connected
| devices now
| 6stringmerc wrote:
| This is a really great angle and perspective to add in - I
| agree a noted habit / trend / short-hand in "severity"
| sometimes with technical subjects. I read through and also
| have heard some similar routine prep stories. Unusual?
| Absolutely!
|
| Then again, it's also unusual for a Dodge dealership in North
| Texas to have 7 Hellcat vehicles stolen in one night, but
| here we are.
|
| So, I pick up that maybe the tech stack isn't the most
| priority point - it's the determination. The desire to
| continue through any avenue. Add that in with, reportedly a
| physical violence time in life, the persistent threat maybe
| can heal out of it?
| zymhan wrote:
| > That's quite a feat.
|
| > makes him any more of a monster
|
| You're attacking a straw man.
|
| Saying something is "a feat" is a long way from saying
| they're a monster.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| The statement in the article would sound to a non-technical
| audience like this guy is some sort of hacking magician,
| and I'm sure nobody minds this perception for the reason I
| mentioned above.
|
| I'm just providing a counterpoint as well as a reason why
| there's an incentive to make this guy sound more skilled &
| evil than he really is.
| fxtentacle wrote:
| It concluded that Lapsus$ "made clear just how easy it was for
| its members (juveniles, in some instances) to infiltrate well-
| defended organisations".
|
| To me, that sounds more like they were not well-defended ...
| hypeatei wrote:
| This is typical writing from people who aren't familiar with
| technology. Could this kid be a genius? Maybe. It's more likely
| he found exploits like the ones we're seeing on the front page
| today[0]. It's not super impressive or surprising, to me at
| least.
|
| [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38720544
| raverbashing wrote:
| A lot of "exploits" are simply a certain level of trust that
| normal people have in each other
|
| I'd rather have him out than live in an absolute zero trust
| environment
| Nextgrid wrote:
| Life in prison for non-violent crime clearly sounds like revenge
| and sour grapes. The big guys clearly don't appreciate having
| their insecurity being exposed this way (keep in mind none of
| these hacks required any significant technical skills), and too
| many people would lose face. _Something_ had to be done, so here
| it is.
|
| The disparity of this punishment compared to what is usually
| given out for similar crimes (in the vast majority nothing as it
| doesn't even get investigated) suggests there is definitely some
| "saving face" motivation behind this sentence.
| m3kw9 wrote:
| Conditional life sentence, he can be freed if docs clear him
| qeternity wrote:
| It's not life in prison.
|
| He's being confined to a mental institution due to severe
| autism. It's unlikely that he can be rehabilitated and would
| remain a cyber security threat to society if released in the
| future.
|
| This is hardly revenge.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| This guy is as much of a "cyber security threat" as your
| typical socially-awkward gamer teenager, of which we have
| plenty of. Every internet-connected server out there
| constantly gets probed by bots/tools often operated by
| similar people and nothing is ever done about it.
|
| This guy's crime wasn't that he was hacking/phishing/stalking
| or the general obnoxious behavior that often comes with this
| kind of person - this is effectively decriminalized in the UK
| anyway, as long as the victim isn't a big, culturally-
| relevant company. Financially-motivated scammers and crime
| rings take advantage of this.
|
| This guy's crime is that he embarrassed the establishment, so
| he has to be painted a much scarier monster than he really is
| and made an example of, since the truth that most
| technically-inclined, socially-awkward teenagers would be
| equally capable of such hacking would be hard to accept and
| put into question the competence of the affected companies.
| CaptainOfCoit wrote:
| > This guy is as much of a "cyber security threat" as your
| typical socially-awkward gamer teenager, of which we have
| plenty of
|
| The following quote seems to indicate that the skills of
| this individual is much sharper than "typical socially-
| awkward gamer teenager":
|
| > Kurtaj managed to breach Rockstar, the company behind
| GTA, using an Amazon Firestick, his hotel TV and a mobile
| phone
| Nextgrid wrote:
| It doesn't take any skill to install a chrooted Linux
| environment or RDP/SSH client on a Fire Stick or Android
| phone, and said skill is orthogonal to hacking skills
| that could be deemed dangerous to society at large.
|
| The fact that this is explicitly brought up smells like
| they're trying to make this guy sound much more dangerous
| & evil than he really is. After all, had he
| discovered/used zero-days or developed exploits, that
| would be a real talking point, but if the only thing
| they've got is "he managed to get a shell on an android
| device" this smells of clutching at straws.
| sensanaty wrote:
| All that means is that he used his phone and another
| android device (the fire stick) + the TV as a monitor, to
| access whatever remote machine he has via SSH, not
| exactly rocket science
|
| And that's the point, the propaganda machine is working
| overtime to paint the kid as some horrifically dangerous
| criminal because he exposed the clowns in power that
| easily could've pdevented all this.
| macNchz wrote:
| I don't see how the grand-scale theft and extortion run by
| Lapsus$ is remotely comparable to the behavior of a
| "typical socially awkward gamer teenager", even a
| particularly unethical one.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| It's not just unlikely. It's _unexpected_.
|
| To me, that presents an issue with the system, not its
| participants.
| neilkk wrote:
| I don't think this is fair. Another underage person found
| guilty of the same hacks got an 18-month rehabilitation order.
| This basically means severe restrictions on going out and
| computer use together with involvement and monitoring by social
| workers. This seems perfectly appropriate. They're not having
| decades of their life taken away from them, and they're not
| locked up with hardened criminals who would either victimise
| them or teach them to be much worse.
|
| The indefinite order is because the kid committed multiple
| assaults and other violent acts while under observation in a
| mental hospital. Doctors don't believe he can be released in
| the foreseeable future.
|
| If you were arrested for unpaid parking tickets and then
| demonstrated threatening, violent and out-of-control behaviour
| while in police custody, then in a secure unit, you might get a
| similar indefinite order.
| ipaddr wrote:
| In what world do you live in where getting too many parking
| tickets and causing violence gets you life in prison until an
| unknown paid state employee decides you took all non-
| necessary meds and drank the kool-aid? If someone was killed
| they would get out a certain date. The judge should have to
| suffer the same fate before he can order this.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| If someone openly and repeatedly said they plan to kill
| more as soon as they are released, they would be in a
| similar situation.
|
| It is pretty rare that the convinced don't at least lie
| about intentions to commit more crime
| neilkk wrote:
| > If someone was killed they would get out a certain date.
|
| No, there are lots of people (in the United States) doing
| life without the possibility of parole. There are many
| people who will never be released from solitary
| confinement. Some of these people were incarcerated for
| fairly trivial crimes and all subsequent punishment was for
| acts committed while in prison.
|
| What do you think happens to people who repeatedly cause
| injury to corrections officers, attempt to sexually assault
| them or infect them with HIV, etc? They are eventually put
| in solitary for life.
|
| Some people will never be released from prison because of
| single acts which they have never repeated, but also are
| not willing to ever show (real or simulated) remorse for.
|
| The system for people with severe mental health problems
| who commit repeated acts of violence works differently but
| is similar in its effects. Some of those people never get
| out, and they knew with decades of life left that they
| would never get out. In the UK, there are many quite high
| bars before a criminal convict can be incarcerated forever
| without chance of release. But it's much easier to block
| release forever from someone who is insane and considered
| dangerous.
|
| The system for sex offenders works in a very similar way in
| some places. Some sex offenders, not the worst offenders,
| can be in a situation where they will never be allowed out,
| or being allowed out is so unlikely that it will never be
| worth it to them to spend years complying in order to
| attempt to be released.
|
| Most jurisdictions have some method by which a person who
| a) did something to get them within the system, b)
| committed repeated assaults or threats while within the
| system and c) did not show that they had radically changed
| their attitude, will never get out. The details vary but
| they always exist.
|
| My suspicion is that in most places, people in this
| situation vary from almost harmless: suffered bad luck and
| a lack of comprehension from decision makers to extremely
| dangerous: very hard to imagine how they could ever not be
| an extreme threat to innocent people outside of
| incarceration.
| dharmab wrote:
| Did you read the article?
|
| > The court heard that Kurtaj had been violent while in custody
| with dozens of reports of injury or property damage.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| How much would that get someone on the street committing the
| same crimes? Maybe probation or a couple years of jail at
| most? That's what I'm comparing it to.
|
| If we were routinely jailing people that had trouble
| controlling their emotions and had propensity for violent
| outbursts we'd have a lot more people in jail, so I don't
| believe this alleged violence was really what got him this
| sentence.
|
| Similarly, how much would someone get for
| scamming/hacking/social engineering a small company or
| individual? Well that one is easy to answer: nothing - this
| behavior has effectively been decriminalized in the UK.
|
| So neither his crimes add up to such a sentence.
| throwaway743 wrote:
| How they define "violent", "injury", and "property damage" is
| very much important though. It could be as light as knocking
| a mug off a desk and breaking it or them accidentally
| tripping someone and causing them to get a minor bruise, or
| it could be to the extreme of assaulting someone or arson.
|
| Curious to know what their definitions and their examples of
| this behavior are regarding this person.
| hackerlight wrote:
| I don't see violent crimes as necessarily the worst. Crimes
| that steal from large numbers of people are arguably worse than
| many types of violent crime due to the sheer magnitude of lives
| that got destroyed. If you destroy 10,000 regular lives through
| fraud you deserve the worst punishment in line with murderers.
| Although this guy's long sentence isn't only because of what he
| stole from Rockstar, my commentary is not only about him, it's
| more of a broader point.
| ipaddr wrote:
| Murdering 10 is okay compared to shutting down a video game
| company for a few hours?
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Straw man argument; the person you replied to did not say
| this.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| From 'Free Kevin' to 'Free Kurtaj'
| beepboopboop wrote:
| Not even close
| seattle_spring wrote:
| Seems reasonable to me. Glad there aren't any comments yet saying
| "oh gosh it was just a video game company, those are a scourge
| anyway on family morals!"
| mettamage wrote:
| Not to me, it's a slippery slope. Want to give someone a life
| sentence? Cool, all you need to do is to stamp the autism label
| on them and put them in a secure hospital and convict them for
| a crime that would get like 5 years in prison.
|
| The point is not the details (I'm obviously not a laywer or
| anything remotely related to that), the point is that it
| _seems_ to be a slippery slope.
| neilkk wrote:
| Did you read the article?
| theshackleford wrote:
| > Cool, all you need to do is to stamp the autism label on
| them and put them in a secure hospital and convict them for a
| crime that would get like 5 years in prison.
|
| Good thing that's not what happened then I guess.
| ryandrake wrote:
| The article specifically says:
|
| > He will remain at a secure hospital for life unless
| doctors deem him no longer a danger.
|
| So he's confined for life. Confinement is confinement,
| whether it's a prison or hospital.
|
| This definitely seems like a case where the government
| found a "backdoor" to allow them to get away with confining
| someone for life, even though they probably couldn't do
| through the normal criminal justice system because the
| punishment doesn't suit the crime.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| > So he's confined for life.
|
| > unless doctors deem him no longer a danger
|
| It's down to him and whether the institution he's in can
| do anything for him.
| drewcoo wrote:
| > It's down to him
|
| No, it's up to the doctors.
|
| If he changes nothing and docs say "we think he's no
| threat now," he could be freed.
|
| If he completely reforms and appears harmless and the
| docs don't give him the thumbs-up, he stays locked up for
| life.
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| I am not sure the consensus here would ever consider relative
| moral value of attacking a 'bad guy'. I am personally saddened
| that a clearly brilliant mind will waste away. I, for one, do
| not doubt that his skill could be put to good use. Not to
| search, I remember being a kid and saying all sorts of things
| that would get me in trouble today.
| sbecker wrote:
| Sounds like a great hire for the CIA or MI6
| coolspot wrote:
| Literally weaponized autism.
|
| Hacking Rockstar using FireTV stick, lol.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| For anyone who skips the article and comes straight to the
| comments, this is not because of the hacking. This is because of
| (alleged) violence and expressed eagerness to return to
| cybercrime.
|
| > _The court heard that Kurtaj had been violent while in custody
| with dozens of reports of injury or property damage._
|
| > _A mental health assessment used as part of the sentencing
| hearing said he "continued to express the intent to return to
| cybercrime as soon as possible. He is highly motivated."_
|
| ...
|
| The details are absolutely wild too. I mean...
|
| > _The jury was told that while he was on bail for hacking Nvidia
| and BT /EE and in police protection at a Travelodge hotel, he
| continued hacking and carried out his most infamous hack. Despite
| having his laptop confiscated, Kurtaj managed to breach Rockstar,
| the company behind GTA, using an Amazon Firestick, his hotel TV
| and a mobile phone._
|
| Holy shit, dude. This is the sort of thing they make movies
| about. I wonder how much of it is true.
| jvanderbot wrote:
| Did anyone here read TFA?
|
| He was apparently shown to be a member of a cyber "gang", and
| expressed zero remorse. In this case, a judge basically has to do
| something.
|
| > A mental health assessment used as part of the sentencing
| hearing said he "continued to express the intent to return to
| cybercrime as soon as possible. He is highly motivated."
|
| The guy was already on bail for another hack:
|
| > The jury was told that while he was on bail for hacking Nvidia
| and BT/EE and in police protection at a Travelodge hotel, he
| continued hacking and carried out his most infamous hack.
|
| > He worked with Kurtaj and other members of Lapsus$ to hack tech
| giant Nvidia and phone company BT/EE and steal data before
| demanding a four million dollar ransom, which was not paid.
|
| > They also stole directly from individuals through their
| cryptocurrency wallets.
|
| So:
|
| > He will remain at a secure hospital for life unless doctors
| deem him no longer a danger.
|
| Hospital b/c of his severe autism. Ostensibly, what has to be
| done is rehabilitation. If he can even lie convincingly, he'll be
| out tomorrow.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| >> If he can even lie convincingly, he'll be out tomorrow.
|
| Give the mental health pros a little credit. Getting out of a
| psych ward isn't as simple as saying you aren't going to do it
| again.
| dkjaudyeqooe wrote:
| The title of this post is manifestly wrong. Being locked up for
| an indefinite period is not the same as being locked up for
| life since he can be released at any time.
|
| But having said that, being locked up "at His Majesty's
| pleasure" as this is called is s scary sentence, since you can
| indeed end up in prison for you whole life if you do not have
| the support of the relevant doctors.
|
| The conspiracy theorists here should remember he was convicted
| by a jury and can appeal his sentence like anyone else. If
| that's insufficient come up with a better system.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| Yes, I read the article. It's full of _expectations_.
|
| There is the expectation that someone should be punished
| severely for hacking a multi-billion dollar corporation.
|
| There is the expectation that that punishment will result in
| them just never hacking again.
|
| There is the expectation that a person who is arrested and
| threatened will respond with patience, and not with their own
| violence.
|
| There is the expectation that the well-known symptoms of Autism
| will just _magically disappear_ whenever they conflict with the
| above expectations. If not, it 's the fault of the person with
| Autism, _not_ whoever set impossible expectations.
|
| ---
|
| All of these expectations have a common theme: they are leveled
| at this one person. He's a teenager with Autism! It doesn't
| matter: we have expectations, and they have to be met.
|
| Fuck that. I have expectations of my own.
|
| I expect that a justice system will _actually try_ to meet
| people at their own level.
|
| I expect that a justice system will attempt to resolve mental
| health with _treatment_ instead of violence.
|
| I expect that a multi-billion dollar company will respond to
| hacks with the only _effective method_ there is: strengthening
| their own security. Anything else is just a waste of breath.
|
| My expectations are not being met. There's not a damn thing I
| can do about it, either: I'm not the one with billions of
| dollars at my disposal.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| He is being met with treatment instead of punishment.
|
| He stole and extorted, assaulted people, and destroyed
| property and was convicted of actual crimes. They did try to
| meet him at his level. They released him pending bail and he
| committed more crimes. He told the court that if they
| released him he would continue committing crimes. They aren't
| sending him to prison though, because he isn't mentally fit.
| They are sending him for medical treatment, at no cost to
| him, until he is determined to no longer be a threat to
| himself or others.
|
| This seems far more humane than sending a mentally unwell
| teenager to prison where he certainly wouldn't get the level
| of care that he will now.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| The primary crimes we are talking about are not the violent
| ones. They are _hacking_.
|
| You are welcome to disagree with me, but I don't believe
| hacking Rockstar to get a peek under the curtain _should be
| a crime_. So what if we took that part out of the story?
| What would change? Everything. The whole story would be
| completely different.
|
| ---
|
| Call it treatment all you want. The goal has already been
| laid out, and it's not rehabilitation.
|
| Have you ever been in a mental hospital? They do important
| work, but that doesn't change the reality of what they
| _are_. It 's a prison with carpets. Trained guards are
| prepared, not only to detain you, but even to _sedate_ you.
|
| Yes, they exist for treatment, but that doesn't make them a
| good fit for everyone. We can, _and should_ try other
| avenues first. I 'm not content to throw up my hands and
| give up on this person. I'm not content to accept this
| system as the best our society can provide.
| drewcoo wrote:
| > He is being met with treatment instead of punishment.
|
| Treatment? From the article:
|
| > He will remain at a secure hospital for life unless
| doctors deem him no longer a danger.
|
| That sounds like punishment. For indefinitely long. Without
| even a trial.
|
| If this were about treatment, we'd have details about how
| he'll be treated and for how long and the chances of
| success. Instead, we hear only about his punishment and
| vague scare-mongering about why it's necessary.
| mise_en_place wrote:
| Not sure if I'd call that severe autism. That's psychopathic
| behavior, when you don't feel any remorse for your crimes.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| I don't feel remorse for his crimes. Am I a psychopath?
|
| Hacking a game company just so you can show people what is
| being worked on _should not be a crime_.
| mise_en_place wrote:
| The Rockstar breach was just one instance of criminal
| behavior. This individual is clearly dangerous and should
| not be allowed back into society. There is a pattern of
| blatant disregard of the law, it's not like he's a grey-hat
| or even black-hat security researcher.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| Is it a _disregard_ for the law, or a _disagreement_?
|
| The law is unjust to begin with. I don't blame anyone for
| breaking it twice. Would I recommend it? No. That doesn't
| mean I have to judge them for it.
|
| The scary behavior here is his violence; but that
| violence was clearly a _reaction_ to the violence he was
| confronted with: being arrested and threatened. I 'm not
| convinced that he is a threat to _society_.
|
| Sure, I can agree that it was wrong for him to react with
| violence. But what else could I reasonably _expect_ from
| someone with Autism being punished for technically-
| illegal behavior?
|
| Have you ever spent more than 10 minutes with someone who
| has severe Autism? If you have, then you know not to
| expect them to be great at following arbitrary rules.
| That doesn't mean they have to be institutionalized!
|
| The solution to this problem is well-known: treatment.
| It's clear that that is not the goal in this case.
| iimblack wrote:
| > They also stole directly from individuals through their
| cryptocurrency wallets.
|
| Plus other hacks in the article.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| OK, so prosecute him for fraud. I would totally support
| that.
|
| My criticism is that we aren't talking about fraud: we
| are talking about hacking. We are talking about legally-
| enforced secrets.
|
| We are talking about a violent reaction to being
| prosecuted for hacking. What if was about the fraud
| instead? Would his reaction be the violent then? We can
| never know.
|
| I'm supposed to be afraid to live in a society where this
| person participates. Afraid enough to sacrifice the rest
| of his life. I'm not convinced.
| ianhawes wrote:
| He hacked a game company and threatened to release
| confidential information unless they paid a ransom.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| I agree that the ransom was immoral, and probably should
| be criminal.
|
| Beyond that, I don't agree with any of this. If a company
| wants to keep secrets, then they are welcome to try. Let
| that be their responsibility.
| hooverd wrote:
| Not even the theft or blackmail?
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| Sure, but not a life sentence.
| arp242 wrote:
| It's my computer, or rockstar's computer, or whatever. You
| have no right to access any of it. Whether it's a stupid
| game or something serious doesn't matter; that's for me to
| decide, not you.
|
| The only exception here is good-faith intrusion testing and
| the like, but fundamentally: my property, none of your
| business, misusing my property is a crime.
| kvathupo wrote:
| I would be inclined to agree, but I'm reminded of passages from
| Edwin Black's book [1] depicting the capriciousness of medical
| providers. E.g. a board of doctors was typically responsible
| for sterilization decisions in America when eugenics was
| mainstream during the early 1900s. It seems reasonable that
| doctors should be final arbiters of medical decisions, as in
| releasing this aforementioned hacker from a mental hospital.
| But the book revealed how these doctors would often
| inconsistently apply their sterilization standards to favor
| prominent local families whilst punishing the usual victims,
| i.e. minorities and poor whites.
|
| In this regard, I find this case deeply disturbing, and would
| prefer if he simply got a definite sentence.
|
| [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Against_the_Weak
| jvanderbot wrote:
| Given the magnitude of his continuous hacks, and his verbally
| expressed desire to do it again and complete lack of remorse,
| the alternative is prison, either now, or on repeat offenses.
|
| The chance of a more rehabilitation-oriented stay is probably
| worth it.
| hnthrowaway0328 wrote:
| NSA should pick him up, or maybe GCHQ.
| intunderflow wrote:
| Ideally an organisation that isn't as morally bankrupt as these
| ones, perhaps something in the private sector.
| evilduck wrote:
| Technical brilliance doesn't mean they're worth the risk and
| danger. Someone who's documented as physically violent is
| simply a liability to all other employees they're around. Even
| without the physical danger he presents intelligence orgs don't
| want people with broken moral compasses, they want people with
| unwavering moral compasses that align with their missions. If
| someone's just in it for fame or money some adversary is always
| going to be able to offer more of both.
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| Life in prison for up to $10m in damages? At first I thought the
| number must be off by a factor of 10. I couldn't help but see Dr
| Evil for a moment.
|
| These are at best property crimes, and while the sums are non
| trivial, sentencing children to indefinite imprisonment for a
| nonviolent crime against a megacorp is unconscionable.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| > against a megacorp
|
| That's the only reason he's punished. A lot more than 10M gets
| stolen regularly across various online scams but nothing gets
| done about those since they primarily target the common man and
| not a large, culturally-relevant company (I'd argue his
| targeting of BT/EE has a lot of influence in the outcome).
| TriangleEdge wrote:
| Seem to me like the prosecution is irrationally scared of
| something they don't understand. When personal data is leaked,
| no one gives a shit. I got downvoted to smithereens for
| commenting on HN that I thought the post about Steve Wozniac
| being in the hospital was perverted. But if you leak something
| from a business, then life in prison?
|
| People value their life at about $10m. There's a video I found
| interesting on a YT channel called practical engineering.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQbaVdge7kU.
| golergka wrote:
| No, not life in prison. Detention in a psychiatric hospital for
| an autistic person who is violently attacking other people.
|
| > dozens of reports of injury or property damage
| zymhan wrote:
| "indefinite detention" as well, meaning the duration is not
| defined, but it's "infinite detention".
|
| However, the article was definitely updated at some point, as
| others in the thread have pointed out. I read it earlier
| today and it did state life in detention.
|
| That is certainly not helping the discussion out,
| unfortunately.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| There is an expectation here that this person will react to being
| arrested and imprisoned with _patience_ ; yet patience is not
| expected from _literally anyone else involved_.
|
| It's abundantly clear that he is not being punished for harming
| _people_. He is being punished for _not playing along_.
| "Refusing to play along" is one of the most well known symptoms
| of Autism. This person is being punished for neurodivergence. I'm
| not even remotely OK with that.
| crazygringo wrote:
| > _yet patience is not expected from literally anyone else
| involved._
|
| Can you explain? The whole process has seemed pretty patient on
| all sides. This wasn't some overnight decision.
|
| I truly don't understand what you're trying to say, or how
| "patience" is relevant here at all.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| Patience isn't just about time.
|
| Sure they were willing to wait, but what were they waiting
| _for_? The result was pretty clear from the beginning.
| crazygringo wrote:
| I still don't know what any of that means. Then what is
| patience about? Who is "they"? What does it matter if
| people can guess at an outcome based on prior experience?
|
| I still don't know what you mean by "patience" and I still
| don't know what relevance it has here.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| By "they", I mean everyone in this story except the
| defendant. I mean the justice system itself. "They"
| should be held to a high standard of expectations.
| crazygringo wrote:
| > _" They" should be held to a high standard of
| expectations._
|
| OK, and the justice system _is_. It 's full of
| professionals, processes, training, exams, appeals
| processes, etc. They are held to very high standards.
|
| Why do you say we don't expect patience from them, and
| why is that relevant?
|
| Legal professionals like lawyers and judges seem
| incredibly patient, as the processes they deal with
| generally take months and even years.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| Neurodivergence isn't a free pass to commit all the crimes you
| want. Lots of shooters are neurodivergent. That doesn't mean
| that society has to let them kill all they want.
| drewcoo wrote:
| Neurodivergence is definitionally not understanding societal
| rules. Also known as laws.
|
| Neurodivergence is not a "free pass to commit crimes," but an
| excuse to be locked up by the authorities.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| To be clear, they aren't being locked up for being
| neurodivergent. They are being locked up for committing
| crimes and refusing to stop if released.
|
| Sure, not committing crimes is part of "playing the game",
| but it is a game you must play to go free.
|
| If someone can't avoid sufficiently severe crime, that is a
| completely valid reason to lock someone up. It doesn't
| matter if they can help it or not
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| If course it isn't.
|
| Neurodivergence is a _reality_. Our justice system can do
| better than be ignorant of it. Our justice system can do
| better than to escalate its symptoms. As a participant in
| democracy, I will accept no lower standard for justice.
|
| This person wasn't killing people. He was looking at secrets.
| There are people who don't understand that murder is wrong,
| and those people need to be institutionalized for the safety
| of everyone else. He isn't one of them.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| This person was robbing and blackmailing people.
|
| The justice system serves to prevent these actions, and
| should do so no matter what the mental state of the
| criminal is.
|
| Is your honest solution just to let them continue doing
| that as an accommodation for their disability?
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| You are reading my comments with the most _uncharitable
| perspective_ possible.
|
| I don't advocate that we legalize blackmail or theft. I
| _also_ don 't advocate that we punish either with _a life
| sentence_.
|
| My point here is that he _wasn 't even charged_ for the
| theft or the blackmail. He was charged for the _hacking_.
|
| My criticism is directed at the justice system itself.
| Reading secrets should not carry a life sentence. Ever.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| >You are reading my comments with the most uncharitable
| perspective possible.
|
| Im sorry if thats the case and I _am_ trying.
| unfortunately, I didnt get that from your prior posts and
| this response as a complete nonquitter.
|
| Maybe it stems from a different understanding of the
| underlying facts. The perp was not sentenced to life in
| any way, just custody until they stop claiming they will
| commit more crimes upon release.
|
| In general, I agree a life sentence would be unreasonably
| harsh for hacking or reading secrets in isolation.
|
| Charges and conditions of release can be unrelated. You
| may be placed into custody for hacking, but not release
| if you say you will commit a more serious crime
| immediately after.
| nicklecompte wrote:
| BBC's actual headline: "Lapsus$: GTA 6 hacker handed indefinite
| hospital order"
|
| The editorialized reframing of the headline is a bit subtle but
| still incredibly dishonest. An _indefinite_ psychiatric order is
| simply not the same as a life sentence.
| switch007 wrote:
| The BBC regularly updates headlines after publication (A/B
| testing for clicks) so it's possible it was the BBC, not the
| poster.
| nicklecompte wrote:
| Wow - I checked the Internet Archive and you are correct, the
| "sentenced to life in hospital prison" headline was used when
| the article was originally published. I stopped reading BBC a
| while ago because of their sloppy standards but this is
| unusually bad.
|
| FWIW in this case I would suppose the BBC online editor was
| careless and fixed their mistake, versus "A/B testing for
| clicks" generally. If it was A/B testing, the "A" headline
| went too far: there's a fine line between clickbait and
| outright lying.
| omoikane wrote:
| The British way of saying this is "being economical with
| the truth".
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economical_with_the_truth
| dang wrote:
| Updated now. Thanks for catching this.
| gwern wrote:
| It is still pretty bad. When you look up old famous crimes,
| they're usually in there basically for life. Leaving aside
| cases like the 'I don't like Mondays' girl (44 years and still
| in there; temporal lobe lesion, possible sociopathy) or the
| pre-Columbine shooting you probably don't remember recently
| profiled in NYer (paranoid schizophrenia;
| https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/12/04/what-happens-t...
| ) where they had regular guilty pleas, even someone like
| Reagan's shooter only just got out a few years ago after his
| family lobbied & paid a fortune for decades. As my old
| professor liked to say, you had to be crazy to do an insanity
| defense, because usually you'd be worse off if you won that
| defense than if you lost another defense.
| dbeardsl wrote:
| I would say he's not in trouble for gaining access to systems,
| it's for extortion:
|
| > He worked with Kurtaj and other members of Lapsus$ to hack tech
| giant Nvidia and phone company BT/EE and steal data before
| demanding a four million dollar ransom, which was not paid.
| raverbashing wrote:
| This is exactly the issue (plus the stalking and the paying
| employees for inside access)
|
| He's not a "grey hat", he was actively extorting those orgs
| CaptainOfCoit wrote:
| Seemingly this individual is highly skilled (in technology) yet
| managed to fail at opsec. Anyone know how police managed to
| find/grab him?
| Nextgrid wrote:
| It doesn't look like any of these even _tried_ opsec - which
| isn 't surprising because such crimes committed against
| individuals or small companies effectively became
| decriminalized in the UK so opsec would just be a waste of
| time.
|
| Their mistake was to think that embarrassing the establishment
| by breaching high-profile (Nvidia, etc), culturally-relevant
| companies (BT/EE) would be met with similar inaction.
|
| Also, with regards to skill, keep in mind that the
| establishment has a huge interest in making the hacks sound
| much more advanced than they really were to minimize the
| embarrassment of the affected companies. It would look really
| bad if it was widely known that these companies were pwned with
| nothing more than basic phishing, bribery and social
| engineering, something anyone can do.
| PrimeMcFly wrote:
| The sentence doesn't seem just.
|
| Why not just restrict him from electronic devices like what
| happened to ZeroCool? Surely there are better solutions that
| putting him in a psych ward for life or until he is 'cured'.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| RTFA. They tried restricting him, and he used a fire stick and
| a a phone to commit another major breach while out on bail.
| Then he told the court that he planned to keep hacking if he
| was released again.
|
| He wasn't sentenced as such. He was determined to be mentally
| unfit, and put under confined treatment until he no longer
| poses a threat.
| PrimeMcFly wrote:
| > RTFA. They tried restricting him, and he used a fire stick
| and a a phone to commit another major breach while out on
| bail. Then he told the court that he planned to keep hacking
| if he was released again.
|
| I did RTFA. I'm saying he could have been denied access to
| any electronic devices without supervision, which I think
| would be a better alternative.
| miki123211 wrote:
| define "electronic devices."
|
| What about credit cards? aTMs? Self-service checkouts? PIN
| pads (the things Europeans have to use in stores to pay by
| card)? Ticket machines and turnstiles? cars? radios? TVS?
|
| All of these sound pretty harmless and are necessary to
| have a life these days, but he did demonstrate that he can
| use a TV for hacking.
| PrimeMcFly wrote:
| > define "electronic devices."
|
| Smartphones and computers, anything with a keyboard and
| internet connection, and sufficient freedom to go
| anywhere eon the internet from the device.
|
| > (the things Europeans have to use in stores to pay by
| card
|
| I mean those are in every country. PINs are not always
| needed for credit card purchases but they are for debit
| card purchases.
|
| > but he did demonstrate that he can use a TV for
| hacking.
|
| A smart TV in conjunction with a phone and a firestick.
|
| No reason he couldn't have a dumb TV.
| mk_stjames wrote:
| I'd really like to hear more about the type of exploits here.
| Like, what level- Are we saying this kid is so brilliant he is
| writing zero-days for getting into corporate networks or if this
| a case of a guy in a good script-kiddie type group running
| phishing deals where they fire off 100000 emails a day and wait
| for someone to give up their logic credentials.
|
| Because if it is the former it's really hard for me to understand
| how that is still even possible in this day and age. Autism,
| brilliance, or whatever... a 17 year old breaking into systems
| like they are as exploitable as early 90's systems sounds just
| insane to me.
| funshed wrote:
| It says does it not, social engineering. Getting access to
| there discord, etc..
|
| A skill in itself but not 0day or anything.
| mk_stjames wrote:
| It says "He broke into the company's internal Slack messaging
| system ".
|
| It does seem likely their approach is something along the
| lines of phishing or, given some of the other notes in the
| article, a combination of social engineering or stalking and
| blackmail...
|
| I have a feeling a lot of these hacker groups that are heard
| about do very little code exploitation. I think a lot of it
| is: find info on employees of a company, maybe find their old
| social media accounts, maybe find some stuff they might not
| want their coworkers to ever know about or their spouses etc.
| And then harass and blackmail the employees for a way in.
|
| If the news agencies were better at reporting, I think a lot
| of people would see these type of 'hackers' as less 'ooooh
| brilliant genius child like in the movies' and more 'straight
| up criminal harasser with no more skill than any normal
| software developer'.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| > If the news agencies were better at reporting
|
| The problem is that reporting the truth - "socially-awkward
| teens hacked their way into large companies by manipulating
| their idiot employees and exploiting lax security policies"
| would force many powerful people into answering
| uncomfortable questions and expose incompetence at many
| levels.
|
| Keep in mind that at least one of the hacked companies (BT
| - British Telecom) is culturally relevant in the UK and
| sadly it is mostly considered as trusted and competent by
| the general non-technical population. Hell, they've even
| got a cybersecurity arm:
| https://www.globalservices.bt.com/en/solutions/security
|
| It would be really inconvenient if it became common
| knowledge that all this perceived trust & competence was
| nothing more than smoke & mirrors and that some kids can
| blow right through it.
|
| Therefore, there's a vested interest all the way up from
| the government to make the hack more sophisticated than it
| really is and the hacker a meaner monster than he is.
| That's also the reason behind the disproportionate
| sentence, despite similar phishing/social
| engineering/stalking crimes against the layman not being
| prosecuted at all.
| Ralo wrote:
| I don't remember where I read this, but I remember hearing that
| they offer to buy credentials from rogue employees.
| roomey wrote:
| (posted on other thread)
|
| A no doubt gifted person who was probably put through torture (as
| they would experience it) in a prison, now locked away for life
| because they lashed out.
|
| Big clap for all the big brains there who failed this guy.
| whalesalad wrote:
| Absolutely monumental waste of talent. Reminds me of how I got
| expelled from high school for "hacking" into their terrible
| infrastructure (without causing any damage whatsoever, other than
| to their pride). They threw the book at me. Threatened felonies.
| Were going on and on about how I will never vote, never be able
| to work as a postal worker etc.
|
| Get this kid into the right environment and he would probably be
| able to do great things.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| Note the violence. This is a person that can't control
| themselves when things don't go their way.
| whalesalad wrote:
| > dozens of reports of injury or property damage.
|
| Eh, this is not outside the realm of expectations for an
| autistic teenager. Anyone locked in a cage will lash out,
| especially if they have neurological issues.
|
| There is a way to harness this energy regardless.
| networkchad wrote:
| > There is a way to harness this energy regardless.
|
| Yeah, it is called prison. I don't care if someone is
| "autistic" or "shit-head asshole". If you are a violent son
| of a bitch, I have a concrete cage with bars to house you
| in.
| whalesalad wrote:
| You do realize that this is the "correctional system"
| right? With the goal to fix/correct/reintegrate people
| into society? What if you can do that before locking them
| up and throwing away the key? You have zero empathy,
| friend.
|
| Also - this individual is clearly a brilliant hacker and
| if that energy could be directed towards the white hat
| space, defensive posture, that would be invaluable.
|
| Guaranteed Mi6 will be trying to snag this kid for
| offensive hacking. He'd have been hired already by NSA if
| he was in the US.
| squigz wrote:
| This is an 18 year old kid.
| cedws wrote:
| He has (from what it sounds like) moderate autism. He's not
| just a misguided curious little fella that needs to be set on
| the right path. He needs a lot of help and to be kept far away
| from bad influences and temptation.
| whalesalad wrote:
| > a misguided curious little fella
|
| everyone, everywhere, is a misguided curious little fella.
| pshirshov wrote:
| The sentence sound very... Soviet.
| withinrafael wrote:
| Relevant sections 23 (discharge of patients) and 41 (restriction
| of discharge from hospital) of the Mental Health Act of 1983
|
| https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/20/section/41
|
| https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/20/section/23
|
| I'm curious about the success (discharge) rate in these cases.
| With only yearly clinician reports to Secretary of State, and all
| the hands involved, things appear grim. Hope I'm wrong.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| There should be a length of time attached. Even in the US "life"
| means a limited amount of time that can be stacked over and over
| again, and we would totally call that excessive for these crimes
| or lack of remorse.
|
| This is really foreign and sad what the UK is doing.
| deadbabe wrote:
| Did he used to post here on hackernews?
| matteoraso wrote:
| >Doctors deemed Kurtaj unfit to stand trial due to his acute
| autism
|
| The kid was able to join an international cybergang and hack into
| a multi-billion dollar corporation. That doesn't sound like
| somebody who's incapable of standing trial. The article also said
| that he was violent in custody, but it doesn't mention any form
| of violence when he was out on the streets. I'm not a lawyer
| (much less a British one), but an indefinite hospital order is
| way too severe for a non-violent crime. Hopefully he gets a
| retrial.
| isk517 wrote:
| >>As well as hacking offences the boy was sentenced for what the
| judge described as "unpleasant and frightening pattern of
| stalking and harassment" of two young women.
|
| Bunch of people on here are defending him, please justify this
| for me.
| whalesalad wrote:
| he's an 18 year old autistic kid - you've never made mistakes
| in your younger years? why are we so quick to dismiss an entire
| human life as worthless? people only learn when others are
| strong enough to teach them.
| bithive123 wrote:
| No one's dismissing his life as worthless, they're just being
| clear-eyed about his behavior. It's one thing to be young and
| creep someone out because you're maladjusted and sexually
| frustrated. It's another to actually stalk and harass people
| and announce your intention to commit crimes. Your theory of
| learning is also opposite my experience; people only learn
| things when they decide to. Can you find any examples of
| someone really internalizing a lesson they didn't want to
| learn?
|
| From what I've read about this kid and his activities, this
| isn't some youthful prank that got blown out of proportion,
| the group he was part of was gleefully mocking and extorting
| their victims.
| whalesalad wrote:
| All of this can be rationalized. We all do dumb shit, and
| can learn to see things in a new light. What you say about
| learning has some truths but you need an externality to
| show you what you're missing, to shift your viewpoint. You
| don't go from rock bottom to sudden realization all on your
| own. A switch doesn't flip in your mind. It comes from the
| outside world, not within.
|
| And a lot of folks are dismissing this persons life in the
| thread.
| bithive123 wrote:
| I agree that people, including criminals, should be
| nurtured and given the opportunity to learn and grow. But
| all society can do is provide the conditions for growth
| while protecting itself from people who can't, won't, or
| haven't yet.
| paulolc wrote:
| This would be a much better TV series script than that "The Good
| Doctor" crap. No offense to all the "The Good Doctor" fans. (We
| all have our own "crappy" stuff we like)
|
| Society would improve if we could turn these high skilled
| individuals into productive law abiding citizens without having
| to go through A Clockwork Orange kind of "reeducation".
| zingababba wrote:
| This dude ran doxbin for a bit. He actually ended up being doxed
| there himself (white) nearly a year ago. He's definitely a piece
| of work.
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