[HN Gopher] String pinsetters are upending bowling
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String pinsetters are upending bowling
Author : bookofjoe
Score : 64 points
Date : 2023-12-20 12:43 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.latimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.latimes.com)
| babelthuap wrote:
| I visited the National Bowling Museum near Dallas as a
| spontaneous joke with some friends. Impressive museum for
| bowling. My favorite part was an animatronic pin boy talking
| about how he was making a lot of money setting pins and was
| moving up soon to shoe rentals. Hilarious. Highly recommend
| checking it out if you are in the area.
| neonate wrote:
| https://web.archive.org/web/20231219221535/https://www.latim...
|
| https://archive.ph/CpzGu
| birracerveza wrote:
| My bowling alley renovated and now uses these string pins. They
| are awful, they keep tangling and jam more than their old
| counterpart, they are horrible to look at, and there's a lot of
| instances of pins just dangling oh so subtly instead of falling
| down like they would without a string.
|
| Terrible, terrible change. Maybe it's just my alley that cheaped
| out on it, but still not a good impression at all.
| JohnFen wrote:
| I agree. I love bowling, but those string things are terrible
| enough that I won't consider using them again.
| ryandrake wrote:
| Sounds like even bowling is no longer safe from tech-based
| enshittification! I'm starting to think that for every product
| out there that we enjoy, there is a Product Owner / Product
| Manager whose full-time job is to change it so that we hate it.
| xmprt wrote:
| This doesn't seem like tech-based enshittification. If
| anything, this is a low tech and super simple (albeit not as
| satisfying) solution to the problem of replacing pins. We
| need to stop using that word before it loses all meaning.
| phkahler wrote:
| >> We need to stop using that word before it loses all
| meaning.
|
| So we're going to take all the fun out of the word
| "enshitification"? How disappointingly meta...
| woah wrote:
| Not a bowler, but this looks like the way you would expect
| things to work given how simple it is
| layer8 wrote:
| No, this is exactly enshittification, degrading the end-
| user experience purely for profit reasons.
| verve_rat wrote:
| Did you forget the part about not killing people?
| undersuit wrote:
| Significant cost savings. Having an employee die can be
| the death of a business.
| jollyllama wrote:
| And that really gets to the heart of it. Safety-ism being
| played as a trump card is another great example. People
| confuse claims of enshittification with some kind of
| Marxist, class-based discourse, which in this case would
| be nullified by concerns for some worker, but that's not
| what it's about. Enshittification says that there can be
| no transcendent values, like aesthetics or adherence to
| tradition, but instead that money rules over all.
| itishappy wrote:
| "Forget" might be a strong word for something not
| mentioned in the article or comment chain.
| tomjakubowski wrote:
| Let's go back to the source, Cory Doctorow's article:
|
| _Here is how platforms die: first, they are good to
| their users; then they abuse their users to make things
| better for their business customers; finally, they abuse
| those business customers to claw back all the value for
| themselves. Then, they die. I call this
| enshittification..._
|
| It would seem not to apply here. Bowling alleys don't
| really have a two-sided marketplace; they don't have
| business customers to sell the fruits of abusing their
| bowling customers, if you could call subjecting bowlers
| to a more annoying set of pins "abuse".
| digdugdirk wrote:
| Think of it as "tech" the industry, not "tech" as in "new
| technology".
|
| Its more related to the fundamental bravado of walking into
| an industry you lack a deep knowledge or understanding of,
| but still have a strong belief you can "do it better".
| api_or_ipa wrote:
| Better I say it before dang or another mod says it: Your
| comment, especially the unwarranted retreat to antagonistic
| expressions, doesn't contribute to a worthwhile discussion.
| I'd ask that you try to angle your comments to be more
| constructive.
| nsxwolf wrote:
| I'm saddened to hear they're being installed in real bowling
| alleys. They seemed like a good compromise for bars and movie
| theaters. I thought the idea was you can fit them in places
| that you ordinarily couldn't. They are better than nothing but
| are not a substitute for the real thing IMO.
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| I've tried it only once (one full round), and I always had a
| feeling, that the ropes were stopping/slowing down the front
| pins (directly hit), so they hit less of the pins behind them
| (the ones not hit by the ball directly). With a classic machine
| and the largest ball, slightly off center, but straight, the
| ball would take out one half, and the front pin or two would
| take down the other half of the pins... but not with the ropes
| attached.
|
| Maybe it was subjective, or just a different alley, but it felt
| worse for me.
| MenhirMike wrote:
| It's a bit unfortunate, but with maintenance staff retiring and
| becoming harder to find, bowling lanes struggling financially,
| it's a potential alternative.
|
| What's notable is that string pinsetters have only recently been
| standardized (and that's AFAIK still an ongoing process), because
| they have been wildly inconsistent. USBC has a recent update
| here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDvb0VmlHDU
|
| Ultimately, I much prefer free fall bowling, but if the choice is
| between "string bowling on a USBC certified pinsetter" and "no
| bowling", I'll choose the strings. It's not a completely
| different game (like Duckpin, 9-Pin, or Candlepin), and it's
| still good - but it's different.
| thrusong wrote:
| We've had these in Winnipeg for as long as I can remember, but
| this is Canada where 5-pin is king.
|
| I first saw them in the late 90's at Uptown Alley which was
| located on two levels of an old movie palace.
|
| They definitely tangled a lot when they first went in, but it
| seems like the technology here got better overtime.
| whalesalad wrote:
| I've seen these in the casual baby/tiny bowling ... but never in
| a legit bowling alley.
| wavemode wrote:
| > Nothing could be done about the muted sound. It's like hearing
| a drum roll -- the ball charging down the lane -- with no
| crashing cymbal at the end. That crescendo and climax, Mills
| insists, is a visceral part "of the experience of smashing pins
| with a heavy ball."
|
| This reminds me so much of the nostalgia and conflict over
| Formula 1 engine sounds:
|
| https://www.si.com/fannation/racing/f1briefings/news/f1-ceo-...
| pionar wrote:
| Bring back V12s!
| I_Am_Nous wrote:
| There's nothing like ripping around Spa (in VR, of course) in
| the F2004 on Assetto Corsa. Sure, the SF70H/71H turbo-hybrid
| is _faster_ but it definitely doesn 't have the same
| experience. Those V12s sound _ANGY_
| schneems wrote:
| I wonder if we could put a mic by the pins and play it back
| amplified. It's still not the "same" which I'm guessing is the
| bigger problem, but it at least would be more sensory feedback
| in the short term.
| bombcar wrote:
| I wonder if some smaller lanes would go back to having
| pinsetters. If you only have a lane or two, and the machines cost
| that much to maintain and run, perhaps a kid isn't that
| expensive.
|
| And of course, you charge more because it's luxury bowling.
| sinkasapa wrote:
| There is still at least one place that uses pinsetters in
| Milwaukee.
|
| https://www.geneandmarcyhollerhouse.com/
| uxp100 wrote:
| More than one if you count mini bowl. But yeah, Holler House
| is the only full sized manual set lanes in Milwaukee.
| evan_ wrote:
| It could be worse, as far as I know there's nobody trying to make
| a pin-less bowling alley with a big LCD screen at the end of the
| lane.
| gpm wrote:
| Wii Bowling?
| evan_ wrote:
| Hmm... sensors read the vector/spin/color of the ball as it
| travels down the lane and models its trajectory, the real ball
| drops into a concealed pit at the end of the lane just before
| where the pins would be, the screen shows a real-time physics
| modelled result of the pins dropping complete with a virtual
| representation of your ball. You could get fancy and have
| cartoon character pins for kids... maybe best not to think
| about this anymore.
| laxd wrote:
| Let's not forget the potential ad space in between turns.
| xp84 wrote:
| Ads? You also forgot adding pay-to-win mechanics!
|
| Player 3, you're up next! Would you like to buy a pack of 4
| _Mega Magnets_? Your ball will attract any pins it comes
| near.
|
| Only 600 Gems! Special Offer today only!
| TehCorwiz wrote:
| They already do that on the scoreboards.
| inopinatus wrote:
| motion capture markers in the bowling suit you rented on
| arrival transform you, in the eyes of everyone's VR goggles,
| into the temporary skin that came with your Frozen 3-themed
| Game & Ice Cream combo ticket. you appear as kristoff, your
| buddy appears as elsa. actually eating the ice cream is
| prohibited without an active Disney+ subscription, be sure to
| link your account prior to arrival. more sophisticated
| players snicker quietly to one another about your plebeian
| choice of a mass-market skin; they are of course using
| limited-edition outfits that were bought or earned. bowling
| professionals and top amateurs enjoy individually rigged
| tailoring bearing sponsor logos. no-one looks like
| themselves. each strike builds up "golden balls" that can be
| spent as an in-alley currency for powerups e.g. allowing you
| roll again, or to penalise an opponent. gameplay never
| supplies enough of the golden balls but you can buy more with
| real money, or earn small increments by repeating the slogan
| of an apparel company to the satisfaction of a performance-
| judging ai. the ai has a reputation for penalising foreign
| accents but this is hotly denied. after the game you are
| awarded special tokens that can only be spent on hats
| cjbgkagh wrote:
| Wouldn't even need a full lane, just catch the ball early and
| simulate the rest. Not something I would play but I don't bowl
| either.
| hex4def6 wrote:
| Genius! It does make me think how much you could virtualize the
| experience while still requiring the same mechanics / ball
| control. Sort of like those virtual gold driving ranges.
|
| Here's an idea: instead of requiring the whole 60ft lane, just
| have a lane ~10 ft long with a trap at the end. Based on the
| measured spin, angle etc, you could project the trajectory down
| the virtual lane.
|
| Use one of those head-tracking techs (Dimenco screens?)
|
| This would allow you to have like 3x-4x the number of bowling
| lanes in the same building footprint.
| mminer237 wrote:
| There are a couple of businesses near me that have sport
| simulators like this:
| https://www.sportssimulator.com/promaxedition
|
| The focus is golf, but they do have a bowling mode where you
| throw the ball and the camera picks it up and simulates it on
| the projector. It's not attempting to replace the bowling alley
| in town though.
| jacobn wrote:
| It seems like a lot of the problems arise from the strings being
| attached to the top of the pin
|
| Why not attach them to the bottom and have the setting machine
| underneath?
| Rapzid wrote:
| It looks like dangling is key to the untangling.
| justinsaccount wrote:
| Where do the pins go between the first roll and the second
| roll??
| xp84 wrote:
| Up, I think. The YouTube video someone linked near the top
| shows how both work.
| sb8244 wrote:
| Pins are pretty heavy and seem like they would be difficult to
| reliably stand upright from underneath.
|
| Just guess--i don't actually know
| nsxwolf wrote:
| How about electromagnets?
| paxys wrote:
| That doesn't make sense because you have to move the pins out
| of the way after they have been knocked over. If they are
| attached to the lane at the bottom then where do they go?
| smoyer wrote:
| My dad set pins manually when he wasa teenager. There was a pedal
| he stepped on and then he had to put pins on the spikes and hop
| back up on a shelf above the pins. There were people who didn't
| wait for the pinsetters to get out of the way and retribution was
| funny ... They'd hold the pedal down so the spikes were still in
| the pins and the ball would simply bounce back up the alley.
| slau wrote:
| I came across an interesting video about this a couple days ago:
| https://youtu.be/PwQQhQWU3nI
|
| tl;dw: it reduces the moving parts from thousands to just a
| hundred, means that the relatively untrained staff can untangle a
| few pins every night, and not get crushed to death.
|
| Apparently, bowling machines crushing people to death is not as
| uncommon as we might want it, and therefore, the industry was due
| for an upgrade.
|
| Anecdotal: I went bowling last week, and my local bowling alley
| has switched over to this system (Denmark). It wasn't terrible. I
| had much more of an issue with the state of the oil pattern than
| the pins or the pin setter. Our 3 lanes didn't jam in 2 hours.
| colordrops wrote:
| It's not an upgrade though. Well, perhaps for the "industry"
| it's an upgrade, but it's a downgrade for the game itself.
| verve_rat wrote:
| Maybe, but if maintaining the current standard of the game
| requires the sacrifice of multiple human lives each year then
| it doesn't seem like there is much of an argument against
| downgrading.
| Andrex wrote:
| Ban them both and go back to pinboys, I say. Best of both
| worlds (free pins and no fatalities).
| allenrb wrote:
| And employment opportunities galore!
| riversflow wrote:
| That's a false dichotomy, it doesn't "require" the
| sacrifice, they could definitely make the machines more
| safe, or make working on them safer, but likely they were
| made before worker safety was considered so critical and
| "pinsetter mechanic" is probably too niche to get special
| work safety provisions.
| lolinder wrote:
| They have made them safer--by reducing the complexity of
| the machines and the frequency of necessary human
| intervention by adding strings to pull the pins back into
| place.
| dendrite9 wrote:
| A friend of mine told me once about working at his family's
| bowling alley after school one night and suddenly having his
| shirt ripped off him by one of the setting machines. He said it
| was sobering and he felt lucky he didn't go with it.
| viraptor wrote:
| This feels so weird. The machines don't need to put that much
| force into the usual operation. We know how much the
| arm/scoop weights and the usual resistance the pins can
| give... So why would there be instances of people being
| crushed? We've got mechanical ways to restrict the force -
| what are the issues preventing adding that to the design?
| malfist wrote:
| Pins are pretty heavy, and the machine needs to throw them
| around pretty quickly
| arpyzo wrote:
| "Nothing could be done about the muted sound. It's like hearing a
| drum roll -- the ball charging down the lane -- with no crashing
| cymbal at the end. That crescendo and climax, Mills insists, is a
| visceral part "of the experience of smashing pins with a heavy
| ball."
|
| I haven't tried the strings yet, but the sounds of bowling are a
| big deal to me. Just walking into a bowling alley and hearing the
| sounds of pins being hit makes me feel good, and puts my in the
| right frame of mind. Without the crash, I feel like bowling would
| feel empty to me.
| alistairSH wrote:
| What stops the string from one pin catching on the pin next to it
| and taking it down during play?
| Nition wrote:
| It kind of sounds like what they really need is some new company
| to come along with a pinsetter that scoops the pins up the old
| way without strings, but without the constant maintenance that
| existing ones apparently require.
| blehn wrote:
| Surely there are ways to improve and simplify the pinsetting
| machine without resorting to strings? I suppose it's not a
| glamorous engineering challenge but this feels like a pretty lazy
| "solution"
| paxys wrote:
| Funny that this is being touted as new technology when throughout
| my youth I can only remember bowling at lanes that used string
| pinsetters. The fancy mechanical ones only came much later, and
| at least in Europe plenty of places never bothered to upgrade at
| all and still work this way. So this is less of an upgrade and
| more a reversion to an older, simpler, cheaper way of doing
| things.
| m463 wrote:
| why not just use robot arms?
| loloquwowndueo wrote:
| "Just".
| xuhu wrote:
| I'm halfway through the 3D pinsetter video on YouTube, that thing
| should be required watching for any EE or CS student.
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