[HN Gopher] How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and ...
___________________________________________________________________
How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time
Author : mikhael
Score : 60 points
Date : 2023-12-17 19:58 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com)
| throwup238 wrote:
| https://archive.ph/nItnV
|
| I wonder what the Academie Francaise has to say about that...
| edwcross wrote:
| The Academie nowadays is (mostly) a bunch of old politically
| influent people with zero or little linguistic knowledge. They
| stopped reforming the language almost two hundred years ago and
| now they can only hope that people will keep paying them
| attention. But the language will keep evolving and drifting,
| and they will keep resisting, until the divergence will be so
| large that they will just disappear into nothingness, and
| people will ask: "why did people bother with them for so
| long?..."
|
| Or, as the young ones do nowadays, they'll just say "Cheh!" to
| the Academie.
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| Well, yes, except that this is the language (and its rules)
| that is taught as school.
| mr90210 wrote:
| Do your research on European Portuguese vs Brazilian
| Portuguese, and you'll realize that the latter owns its own
| version and defines its own standard without needing the
| consent from any other country.
|
| So, there is nothing France or any institution can do about
| it.
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| This is exactly what I wrote in my last sentence. Every
| country speaking a language influences its version.
| heywhatupboys wrote:
| "read up on this wholly separate language and language
| culture, and you will see that I mean about French"
| mr90210 wrote:
| Spot on. I am surprised that such a topic has been made an
| article about given that language mutates 100% of the time as
| soon as leaves its place of origin for whatever the mean,
| from accent, to colloquialisms and to slangs.
|
| It happened to Spanish, English and to other languages.
| pyrale wrote:
| > until the divergence will be so large that they will just
| disappear into nothingness, and people will ask: "why did
| people bother with them for so long?..."
|
| They won't disappear as long as there is money.
| pelorat wrote:
| > They stopped reforming the language
|
| That's the whole point of their existence...
| saiya-jin wrote:
| Well then what's their point of existence apart from taking
| (rather large) bunch of tax money? To point out how much
| they didn't do every year?
| taimurkazmi wrote:
| You're find this out now? After four centuries of Spanish in the
| Americas, Spanish speakers there have developed an enormous
| culture and diversity and innovation in the language. I remind my
| Spanish friends that there are three times the number of Spanish
| speakers in Mexico than in Spain. In fact, there are more Spanish
| speakers in the United States there are more Spanish speakers
| than in Spain. Ditto for Portuguese, where Brazil and the
| Portuguese in Africa have developed delightful versions of
| Portuguese -and an enormous and diverse culture. France and the
| French should be proud that their language and culture are being
| spread and transformed by the French speaking nations in Africa;
| I especially love the music coming out of Mali, Senegal and
| Algeria (Rai, anyone?).
| csdvrx wrote:
| I love rap, and I've found many gems in Russian and French rap.
|
| These 2 scenes are extremely innovative!
|
| > I especially love the music coming out of Mali, Senegal and
| Algeria (Rai, anyone?).
|
| Yes please! Can I ask you for more suggestions, even besides
| Rai?
|
| In the old school, I love Magic System (Gaou), and for current
| hits, Aye Nakamura
|
| EDIT: I can't understand why this comment is downvoted, except
| maybe for political reasons:
|
| > French should be proud that their language and culture are
| being spread and transformed by the French speaking nations in
| Africa
|
| Apparently, they're angry about that!
| thierrydamiba wrote:
| Woah, did not expect to see a Magic System fan when I opened
| up HN today. I was living in the Ivory Coast when Premier
| Gauo came out. I love their music and it brought back some
| good memories. Thank you!
| csdvrx wrote:
| If you have some current hits you can recommend, I'd love
| to get recommendations from another Magic System fan!
|
| In return I can suggest artists like Slava Marlow, or
| places like zaycev.net to get a nice curated experience
| without involving youtube: just click on the play button at
| the bottom of the screen: currently I'm listening to
| Subbota (Dym bombim)
| seszett wrote:
| > _Woah, did not expect to see a Magic System fan when I
| opened up HN today._
|
| Maybe "fan" is a bit too strong but I'd say any French
| speaking person, at least in France and Belgium, growing up
| in the 90/2000s, knows Premier Gaou and can sing a bit of
| it. It was very popular.
| dang wrote:
| I think the downvotes are because of the snark/swipe in
| "You're finding this out now?". That kind of thing is against
| the site guidelines -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html - not just "
| _Don 't be snarky_" and " _Edit out swipes_ ", but also "
| _Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of
| what someone says, not a weaker one that 's easier to
| criticize._" The point of the OP is not surprise _that_ this
| is happening (obviously language evolves in this way), but
| curiosity about _how_ it is happening.
|
| It's a pity because the rest of the comment is fine.
| csdvrx wrote:
| > It's a pity because the rest of the comment is fine.
|
| It's indeed sad because it offered a nice general argument:
| cultures interates on what they produce, in a feedback
| loop. It produces wonderful new creations.
|
| So it shouldn't be a surprise, both for language and for
| music.
|
| I care more about the music part, because I've found some
| gems where I didn't expect them. It's taught me to keep my
| eyes (and my ears lol) open for the wonderful new creations
| that are all around us, but that we may miss.
| sesm wrote:
| Gems in Russian rap? As a native speaker I'm genuinely
| surprised
| csdvrx wrote:
| > Gems in Russian rap?
|
| YES: the music and the rythms are great but the visual
| composition (scenery, etc) is even more wonderful: in
| Cadillac the drone shots then the rotations with the slow
| blends of racing games ending the nostril are very unique.
|
| The visuals in rap are rarely that creative
|
| > As a native speaker I'm genuinely surprised
|
| Do you find surprising I also like the social critique from
| IC3PEAK (Smerti Bol'she Net) or morgenshtern (Aristocrat)?
| (but he's lost some of his magic since he moved)
|
| If you do, give me better recommendations!
| Mizza wrote:
| I always liked this version of Hustlin..
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzuM-uZtfYQ
| prmoustache wrote:
| > Apparently, they're angry about that!
|
| I think this is a gross generalization.
| welder wrote:
| I love the carribean/cuban/dominican spanish where they leave
| off the ending of words to they can speak faster.
|
| https://www.tiktok.com/@msnewslady/video/7124117603425029422
| prmoustache wrote:
| It is similar to andalusian people.
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| > Members of the French Academy, the 17th-century institution
| that publishes an official dictionary of the French language,
| have been working on the same edition for the past 40 years.
|
| This is nonsense. The French Academy is adding new words to the
| dictionary every year.
|
| The whole article is weak to say the least. Of course, the French
| spoken abroad is changed by the local influences. This is the sam
| case as with any language that crosses countries boundaries.
| There are major differences within France as well.
|
| In everyday discussions, I do not see any special influence from
| Africa on our language. The influence of instant messaging is
| orders of magnitude larger and I have to decipher phrases such as
| "vzy cr". Or monstrosities such as "sa va koi" which are shaping
| our language deep down because it is how many young people
| express themselves.
|
| French is complicated and mostly masochist (we are the champions
| of how to write something easy most difficultly, and crank
| weirdness of pronunciation to 100). It is not helping that we are
| rigid in how the language evolves (and sometimes straight
| ridiculous). But the changes to French French come from inside
| France, the ones from Mali French - from within Mali etc.
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| Wait until they learn about chocolatines.
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| Please do not use vulgar words here.
|
| We are already way too lax on the usage of these words and
| this only propagates blind violence (in French:
| https://www.legorafi.fr/2013/03/20/toulouse-il-se-fait-
| abatt...)
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| To non french readers: le gorafi is the french equivalent
| of the onion :)
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| To be frank, their articles can be easily misinterpreted
| as the reality.
| blackshaw wrote:
| > we are the champions of how to write something easy most
| difficultly, and crank weirdness of pronunciation to 100
|
| Wurs than Inglish? I hav my dowts.
| grecy wrote:
| Learning French while exploring West Africa was enormously good
| fun.
|
| For most people it's their 3rd or 4th or 5th language, and they
| were always so full of joy and happiness than I was trying my
| best. Nobody ever corrected my pronunciation or criticized me for
| my bad grammar and lack of vocabulary. (Cough, France, Cough).
| Thanks to all the encouragement and positivity I picked it up
| pretty quickly, and thoroughly enjoyed conversations with random
| locals all over the continent.
|
| Actually, it was just as much fun as learning Spanish on the road
| in Central and South America.
| dudul wrote:
| French people always get criticized for not understanding
| foreigners' broken French. It is not out of malice. It is
| because it actually is very hard to understand broken French.
|
| A lot of very different words sound similar. A very simple
| grammatical mistake can completely change the meaning of a
| sentence.
|
| And yeah, it's probably kind of the same in English, but French
| is not the linga franca English is today (see what I did
| there!). While we get a ton of daily practice reading/hearing
| broken English, it is not the same with French for people
| living in France.
|
| People weren't correcting you to mock you. They wanted to
| understand and probably help you.
| heywhatupboys wrote:
| French is the lingua franca of much of the world....
| vlovich123 wrote:
| What criteria are you using?
|
| ~320M French speakers globally (220M native, official
| language for 29 countries)
|
| ~559M Spanish speakers (~480M native, 20 countries)
|
| ~1.1B Mandarin speakers globally (a few countries, mother
| tongue in ~20 countries)
|
| ~1.5B English speakers globally (~400M native, official
| language for 67 countries)
|
| So for much of the world it seems pretty clearly English (&
| has been since WWII) and French is in the "second" tier
| competing with Spanish and Mandarin (probably just behind
| Spanish & Mandarin in terms of penetration lingua franca is
| about being the bridge language).
| Koshkin wrote:
| Yet, somehow I have no problem calling French 'franca'...
| lm28469 wrote:
| You do realize that "franca" here has nothing to do with
| French or France ? Neither today nor originally
| vasco wrote:
| I did not know the origin at all so looked it up:
|
| > Based mostly on Northern Italy's languages (mainly
| Venetian and Genoese) and secondarily on Occitano-Romance
| languages (Catalan and Occitan) in the western
| Mediterranean area at first, Lingua Franca later came to
| have more Spanish and Portuguese elements, especially on
| the Barbary Coast (now referred to as the Maghreb).
| Lingua Franca also borrowed from Berber, Turkish, French,
| Greek and Arabic.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Lingua_Franca
| Koshkin wrote:
| That's not exactly true. To quote Wikipedia, _Lingua
| franca meant literally "Frankish language" in Late Latin,
| and it originally referred specifically to the language
| that was used around the Eastern Mediterranean Sea as the
| main language of commerce._
| cassepipe wrote:
| Well, Lingua Franca == Frankish language and since France
| got its name from the Franks I wouldn't say it's got
| nothing to do
| dukeyukey wrote:
| In West Africa and the western part of North Africa, sure.
| But outside of there, English is gonna be more useful. Even
| in Europe. Hell, even in some multilingual Francophone
| countries - https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/culture/english-
| as-a-common-lan...
| yieldcrv wrote:
| sounds like people in west african countries have a superior
| understanding of the purpose of language, which is to convey
| shared concepts
| dudul wrote:
| No, it's just that they were themselves learning French, so
| used to speaking broken French. You would get the same
| experience by gathering a German, an Australian and a
| Venezuelan all learning French as 2nd or 3rd language.
|
| Additionally they most likely already knew English and were
| able to decipher "French broken by an English speaker".
|
| Edit: and since we're sharing anecdotes. I got the same
| "rude" treatment from Russians when I was learning Russian
| in Russia, or from Swedish folks when learning Swedish in
| Stockholm. It's just hard for native speakers to deal with
| broken linguo, that's just how it is. Swedish people would
| even reply to me in English, some would call it rude, they
| were just trying to be helpful and efficient.
| grecy wrote:
| > _Additionally they most likely already knew English and
| were able to decipher "French broken by an English
| speaker"._
|
| No, they did not speak English.
|
| If they had, I wouldn't have subjected them to my French.
| freeney wrote:
| I don't think this issue is about the French spoken in
| West Africa being 'broken.' Or that 'they were themselves
| learning French'... Rather, it reflects the tolerance and
| adaptability inherent in multilingual societies like
| those in West Africa. People are simply more accustomed
| to communicating across different languages and more
| accepting of non-native speakers and various accents,
| even if they are native speakers themselves. Ironically
| this tolerance as opposed to the supposed academic
| perfection of the language spoken in France makes use of
| the language as it was initially intended when it was
| created a lingua franca meant to be used by a wide
| variety of people. In France however there is often less
| tolerance for varying pronunciations and accents, not
| everyone is the same in that regard but it's definitely
| something people experience in France (we would wish that
| maybe they would resort to English sometime to continue
| the conversation or correcting us but this is much less
| likely too).
|
| This isn't just about non-native speakers but also
| applies to native French speakers from regions like
| Quebec or Congo. Despite using similar vocabulary, they
| sometimes face challenges being understood in France,
| mainly due to their distinct accents, I mean I believe
| this also occurs between various region of France
| grecy wrote:
| > _People weren 't correcting you to mock you. They wanted to
| understand and probably help you_
|
| No. In France they openly showed their disgust at my French
| and refused even to speak to me.
| dudul wrote:
| For the reaction to be so strong I wonder if there was more
| than just broken French. Always easy to go with the super
| nice tourist/mean for no reason autoctone.
|
| Anyway, sorry you had this experience.
| forty wrote:
| Yes, I'm French and I often have a hard time understanding
| French even correct, with a strong accent I'm not used to. I
| remember, when I was ~15 I met a guy from RDC (Congo) and it
| was very awkward for me as he was speaking French with a
| Belgian and African accent which even with all the best
| intent I could not understand, while he understood me just
| fine. We ended up speaking in English (it was in London so I
| pretended wanting to improve my English :))
| Koshkin wrote:
| Interestingly, I could not help but notice that, being
| neighbors and all, both the English and the French are by far
| the worst offenders in terms of how broken one's
| pronunciation of the language of the other usually is.
| seszett wrote:
| We understand each other's broken accent really well
| though. So it doesn't really matter.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| Probably doesn't help that 1/3 of English is imported and
| mangled French words.
| yawboakye wrote:
| while 1/2 of french is imported and mangled latin. so
| where did english borrow from really? given that it's
| easier to figure out the latin roots of the anglicized?
| ekianjo wrote:
| The normand invasion of England and political control for
| 400 years changed the English language for sure.
|
| The medieval English and the modern English are
| completely different. Medieval French and modern French,
| not so much.
| triceratops wrote:
| > It is because it actually is very hard to understand broken
| French. A lot of very different words sound similar.
|
| They frivolously expend with the consonants at the ends of
| words. All that additional signal just thrown away! /s
| dataflow wrote:
| > French people always get criticized for not understanding
| foreigners' broken French
|
| The main criticism I've heard is kind of the opposite - that
| they dislike foreigners _not_ trying to speak French, and
| just starting communication in English. If both of these are
| true then I guess that puts foreigners in a tough place where
| they 're damned if they try and damned if they don't?
| Swizec wrote:
| I've had extraordinary luck with broken French in France.
| If you start in French and do your best, a lot of people
| suddenly speak fluent English. Especially in metro areas.
|
| But the experience does not compare to traveling with my
| partner who speaks fluent zero-accent French. Paris turns
| into a different much nicer city when you pair with a
| native speaker.
|
| That said, you'll never get the level of service you see in
| USA. The French (Europe in general) just don't care that
| much about customer UX. You either do it their way or you
| can leave.
| jimmaswell wrote:
| Europe as a whole has always come off as unpleasant to
| visit as an American, from what I've read online such as
| this thread. In no American city I've been to do you have
| to be so vigilant for pickpockets as you apparently do in
| European cities, and virtually no one in America will
| complain about your accent or grammar. We have free water
| at restaurants, and the staff won't treat you like a
| mooch for asking about it; in fact most staff of any
| business will make at least a basic attempt to be
| pleasant towards you. You get your money's worth in food
| portions at restaurants, the taxes are cheaper, you won't
| be arrested and fined for making a rude tweet.. why
| exactly would I want to visit Europe?
| passwordoops wrote:
| > People weren't correcting you to mock you. They wanted to
| understand and probably help you
|
| I'm (an anglophone) from Quebec and worked in Europe for a
| while. Parisians _totally_ mock people not speaking Parisian
| French. They 're even open and extraordinarily condescending
| about it. The rest of the country is cool and generally
| helpful
| OnlyMortal wrote:
| I met French speaking Quebecois in Paris. They were
| complaining the Parisians didn't understand them.
|
| They weren't enamoured to France.
| saiya-jin wrote:
| I interact with french in France for some 13 years, spending
| most weekends there (Chamonix! but all over the place from
| east to west to south, not much north yet).
|
| First of all, french is not some beautiful language once you
| grok the grammar, rather pretty weird and old layered
| 'spaghetti code' with tons of exceptions to tons of obscure
| rules (nothing, absolutely nothing elegant there). Its
| needlessly complex especially when you know other languages
| solved it much better, and as with other bureaucratic stuff
| in France any attempt for reform failed. English to non-
| native (in both of those) is a beautiful magnificent blessing
| in comparison, you can be proficient with little, french will
| literally look puzzled at you and get _really quickly_ fed up
| with you. Patience is really not a typical french virtue. But
| I guess if you like the feeling of struggling for whole life,
| looked down upon and gain motivation from it then its great.
|
| Second, I don't know details of how schools work in France
| (seems a rather toxic place pushing way too hard for
| competitiveness but I may be wrong here), but I see result
| every day also in cca 50% of my colleagues - people are
| absolutely snobbish in the worst possible manner about their
| language to the point of being sometimes toxic, and
| automatically scowl at any tiny mistake. Guess what, as a
| foreigner trying to learn language you will make tons of
| them, even on C2 level. There is absolutely minimum help,
| they will just laugh at you like bunch of small kids,
| literally mocking you and pointing fingers at you. I mean 50+
| years old higher managers bursting into laugh how stupid you
| are. Every single time. Schooling and overall mindset make
| french people behave like arrogant folks a lot (not so much
| say folks from African colonies, much much nicer folks to
| interact with; same for Swiss french and cca Belgians too.
| Don't know much about Quebec folks, but in casual
| conversation french mock and insult them behind their back
| pretty horribly). I've never ever been mocked by natives for
| making even basic mistakes in any other language, its just
| part of basic human decency.
|
| I've seen recently shock and disgust among young French that
| some french local paragliding teacher exposed to decades of
| english-speaking tourists used some english words in his
| french. Those were some otherwise smart folks. I've had my
| very good American friend who is overweight literally gave up
| on french and France, on his month long trip there they were
| insulting and mocking him in the bars and restaurants, in
| hotels, in trains etc (I talk about staff, not other
| tourists). Man, I have hundreds of stories like this,
| unfortunately very consistent.
|
| I know 5 languages, 3 of them very different compared to my
| native one, and French is by far the worst of them to learn
| and just use it (I know there are worse, just describing my
| experiences). French folks need to come in terms of not being
| superpower nor center of the world anymore and accepting
| there is more than their language in the world. I've visited
| every continent (apart from Antarctica) and generally
| travelled a lot and literally nowhere I felt so little
| welcomed and rather just tolerated due to money bringing in
| like in France. A truly beautiful place, history, cuisine,
| nature, but neither me, nor my wife (who studied in Lyon for
| quite some time) nor folks around us in similar situation
| certainly don't travel there for the local people, which is
| often the most important aspect of my traveling when going
| for exotics.
|
| /sorry for long rant
| csdvrx wrote:
| > nor my wife (who studied in Lyon for quite some time)
|
| Can you please ask her some recommendations for
| contemporary music?
|
| I find french rap wonderful!
|
| My new favorite artist is Aye Nakamura ; before I really
| loved Eva Queen.
| gumby wrote:
| > First of all, french is not some beautiful language once
| you grok the grammar, rather pretty weird and old layered
| 'spaghetti code' with tons of exceptions to tons of obscure
| rules (nothing, absolutely nothing elegant there). Its
| needlessly complex especially when you know other languages
| solved it much better,
|
| Though I can't disagree with the "ancient spaghetti code"
| characterisation, "needlessly complex" is linguistically
| meaningless. People continuously use language and
| infelicities are typically rapidly eliminated.
|
| My wife and I would between us resort to French express
| things that couldn't be conveniently expressed in our
| respective native languages. I think it's pretty common --
| probably universal -- to inject foreign loan words or
| phrases in multilingual families or other groups. In the
| case of resorting to French, it's usually for a word that
| has a lot of implications, ambiguity or other
| ramifications, which can be expressed compactly in French.
| A consequence of the spaghetti code you decry.
|
| Written Arabic is really great for this.
| pmontra wrote:
| A French friend of mine told me: get the pronunciation right,
| then it doesn't matter if the words are wrong.
| pyrale wrote:
| > But some in France are slow to embrace change. Members of the
| French Academy, the 17th-century institution that publishes an
| official dictionary of the French language, have been working on
| the same edition for the past 40 years.
|
| Lmao, no, they don't. They actually pay other people to do that
| work.
|
| People abroad don't seem to realize that the academys, most
| notably the french academy are mostly a retirement scheme for
| elder conservative members of the establishment. When you're no
| longer relevant, you go there to earn a fat paycheck doing
| nothing, and occasionally rant about how it was better before.
| switch007 wrote:
| I didn't know that lol. That's hilarious
| h1fra wrote:
| It's always fun to see foreigners coming to paris discovering
| that the french they learned at school is basically useless.
|
| Not only we use africans or arabic words, but we also speak in
| reverse, with noises, everything is shortened, etc.
| nequo wrote:
| In reverse? Do you mind sharing a couple examples? I'm not a
| French speaker and this sounds intriguing to me.
| playingalong wrote:
| They likely meant non-standard word order in a sentence. Not
| reading the words backwards.
| seszett wrote:
| No, it's speaking the word backwards, syllable-wise.
|
| L'envers becomes verlan, femme becomes meuf, fete teuf,
| louche is chelou and merci is cimer, for the most common,
| everyday words.
|
| It can even go further, with Arabe becoming Beur which
| itself gets verlanised into Rebeu. Or meuf, femeu.
| scrollaway wrote:
| Look up verlan. It's a type of French slang where you reverse
| syllables or sounds of words.
|
| "Verlan" itself comes from the reverse of "l'envers" which
| means "reverse".
| homarp wrote:
| And "l'envers" is pronounced lanver
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| Who has time for that?
| gumby wrote:
| It's street slang, for the same reason Cockney rhyming
| slang exists: solidarity and so that their so-called
| "betters" don't understand them.
| wk_end wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verlan
| syncopatience wrote:
| I think the reference is to Verlan, where the syllables in a
| word are inverted. It reminds me of "Pig Latin":
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verlan
| tux3 wrote:
| French has "verlan", which is when you swap some of the
| syllables of a word to give it a slang or "street" vibe.
|
| The world "verlan" itself is verlan for "envers" ("in
| reverse")
| cassepipe wrote:
| I'd say that's one of the worst thing in French : The gap
| between written and spoken is so much bigger than say spanish
| which I think makes it hard for foreigners.
| neonate wrote:
| https://archive.ph/nItnV
| sesuximo wrote:
| This seems completely unsurprising? Subcultures have their own
| slang, and some of it is spreading? That's true in
| French/English/anything
| dang wrote:
| The point of the article is not surprise _that_ this is
| happening (obviously language changes in this way), but
| curiosity about how it is happening.
|
| " _Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of
| what someone says, not a weaker one that 's easier to
| criticize._"
|
| " _Please don 't post shallow dismissals, especially of other
| people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something._"
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| frosting1337 wrote:
| I don't think anyone is surprised half a continent speaking
| French has its own twist on the language. But it _is_
| interesting to read about, especially the impact that hip-hop
| and rap in these countries have had on the dialects, such as
| calling your boyfriend bread.
| avarun wrote:
| [delayed]
| franz68 wrote:
| They are mainly changing France
| prospector1065 wrote:
| Do you have something else you want to say? Because it sounds
| like you're just trying to allude to racism
| spoonjim wrote:
| You'll get culturally enriched and you'll enjoy it
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2023-12-17 23:00 UTC)