[HN Gopher] What it takes to save the axolotl
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What it takes to save the axolotl
Author : samclemens
Score : 93 points
Date : 2023-12-05 17:21 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com)
| bmacho wrote:
| https://archive.ph/20231205121702/https://www.nytimes.com/20...
| throw0101b wrote:
| Not to be confused with axlotl from _Dune_ (spoilers for the
| books below):
|
| * https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Axlotl_Tank
| bcraven wrote:
| How on earth would you get them confused?
| louthy wrote:
| Presumably because 'axolotl' and 'axlotl' are very similar
| words?
| mhb wrote:
| How do you say its name:
|
| https://www.instagram.com/p/BgSGVvZlOz-/?hl=en
| loloquwowndueo wrote:
| You would never confuse ice with lice despite the
| similarity.
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| And yet lots of people confuse "lose" with "loose"
| otreblatercero wrote:
| If you loose it, you could lose it.
| loloquwowndueo wrote:
| And don't get me started on "it's" vs "its" :(
| doubled112 wrote:
| Who was it that said something along the lines of "think
| of the extra o like a hemorrhoid, and hemorrhoids are
| never tight"
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| Or think of the past tense - "loosened" vs "lost"
| KolmogorovComp wrote:
| Lose lost its o.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| The tank in Dune is based on the animal, and sometimes
| shares the same name spelling.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| > _An Axlotl tank or Axolotl tank was the "tank" by which the
| Bene Tleilax reproduced a living human being from the cells
| of a cadaver, producing type of clone called a ghola._
|
| > _The name refers to a variety of salamander, and is from
| the Nahuatl words "atl" meaning water, and "xolotl" a
| shortening of "xoloizcuintle" or dog, therefore meaning
| "water dog". Both animals are tied to the Aztec psychopomp
| Xolotl. Axolotls have the capability to regenerate most of
| their body parts._
| RetroTechie wrote:
| Even more saddening are the countless species going extinct that
| we don't know about (because fast-changing environments cause
| their extinction before humans _ever_ encountered them - let
| alone study /describe).
|
| So much treasure, gone forever before anyone's even _seen_ it.
| mandmandam wrote:
| Fast-changing environments - like land getting clearcut, man
| made climate change, plastic / PFAS / Roundup / etc pollution
| ...
|
| I assume this is what you had in mind, but a horrifyingly large
| segment of the population seem unable to make the connections.
| A lot of money is being spent to keep it that way too.
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| > Fast-changing environments - like land getting clearcut,
| man made climate change, plastic / PFAS / Roundup / etc
| pollution ...
|
| Or the Chicxulub meteor strike.
| cbolton wrote:
| A very interesting animal. A biology professor told me a story
| that went something like this: these animals were known for
| seemingly staying in a larval state for their whole life, an
| extreme case of neoteny. Scientists brought some specimens back
| to Europe to investigate. But when visitors came to witness the
| eternal larvae, they had actually started to transform into
| adults. It turns out a change of environment or other stress
| factor must have triggered the metamorphosis. These animals can
| "choose" to grow into adults or stay as larvae till the end.
| louthy wrote:
| > These animals can "choose" to grow into adults or stay as
| larvae till the end.
|
| Just like professional DJs and rock-stars
| popularrecluse wrote:
| What do you do for a living so we can shit on it
| escapecharacter wrote:
| forum-poster, so similar.
| louthy wrote:
| An ex-pro DJ :D
|
| https://ra.co/dj/paullouth
| blovescoffee wrote:
| How did you go from DJing Fabric to a healthcare company?
| Haha, just genuinely curious
| louthy wrote:
| That's not quite the path, but it sounds good haha!
|
| When I was in my early teens, just discovering electronic
| music for the first time (mid 80s) - but also teaching
| myself to program on a BBC Micro - I had two dream jobs
| for "when I grow up":
|
| 1. Write computer games
|
| 2. Be a rock star
|
| When I was 21 I moved to London to be the sole programmer
| on the PS1 sku of a game [1] for Eidos (didn't have any
| experience in that either). Then proceeded to work for 10
| years in the games industry, before starting the
| healthcare company.
|
| During my 20s I also started running parties in London,
| which then turned into a major residency, and playing all
| over the world. But, mostly I focused my efforts on
| playing in London; the traveling part of DJing - although
| pretty rockstar-esque - is actually usually a few hours
| of fun surrounded by an epic amount of traveling/sitting
| in airports. So, because I already lived in probably the
| centre of the world when it came to music, I kept my
| focus there.
|
| I was earning enough from DJing to quit the Mon-Fri job,
| but what happened with games, during the period where I
| started getting success as a DJ, was that (although a
| good job) it became 'just-a-job'.
|
| So one of my dreams was slowly dying. I never wanted that
| to happen with music, so I never went 'all in', even
| though I could have done it because I was earning enough
| from it. It's a decision I'm glad I made, because music
| has always been fun, and I've never had to compromise or
| sell-out. And the rent has always been paid.
|
| So many of the people I came up with at the time, who are
| now on the downside of their career (not considered cool
| any more) are not in good places. Which is pretty hard to
| see.
|
| It happens to us all. Fabric is obviously the thing you
| pick up on, because it's one of the major world clubs: I
| played there every year for 6 years running (in the good
| years too, 2006-2012) and then nothing ever again. It can
| really knock you if you have nothing else to fall back
| on.
|
| The healthcare thing came about because I was ready to
| jump ship from games. And coincidentally I was
| recommended as a good programmer (by my old boss) to the
| people I am now partners with. Just a case of right time,
| right place, and right mental place for me ... I was
| ready to do something a bit more impactful.
|
| I knew nothing about healthcare either :D
|
| [1] https://www.unseen64.net/2020/11/16/lunatik-pure-
| entertainme...
| blovescoffee wrote:
| This is a really good response, thanks for taking the
| time to write it all out. I once was going to use
| software engineering to pay the bills so I could DJ at
| night. Then life changed and I got carried away being
| happy with other obsessions.
|
| Happy Wednesday :)
| doublemint2203 wrote:
| disagree
| vjk800 wrote:
| According to my family, I'm a 35 year old man-child so
| apparently humans can do the same. I don't want to find an out
| if a strong enough stressor turns me into and adult or not.
| bitwize wrote:
| Try marrying. Nothing stresses you into a man like trying to
| forge a life with someone else.
| hallway_monitor wrote:
| Try having kids, building a life with someone is easy mode
| until you throw multiple children into the mix. It's the
| final milestone of the human metamorphosis and it's a
| challenge.
| zh3 wrote:
| Been there, done that. Bought one of the kids an axolotl
| after lots of pester-power and boatloads of "I promise
| I'll look after it, feed it and clean its tank every
| day".
|
| So it's come to pass that now I look after it, and every
| time there's a new "Dad, can I have a XXX as a pet?" I
| can say "Well, you haven't looked after the axolotl". And
| since they can live for 25 years, there is some method to
| my madness ;)
| kurthr wrote:
| Don't agree to care for their parrot, it ought to outlive
| you both.
| QuercusMax wrote:
| Or a turtle / tortoise!
| bitwize wrote:
| That's why RMS has a "I'd love to meet your parrot, but
| please don't buy me one" rider in his speaking contract.
| pard68 wrote:
| Sounds like your professor's story involved the cousin of the
| axolotl, the tiger salamander. They can live an entire life in
| a larval state or they can undergo metamorphosis. The axolotl
| cannot, their adult form is their larval one.
|
| These two creatures are so often mistaken that most pet stores
| selling axolotls are actually selling tiger salamanders.
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axolotl
| jdmichal wrote:
| The professor's story is potentially this one detailed in the
| very Wikipedia article you linked:
|
| > Six adult axolotls (including a leucistic specimen) were
| shipped from Mexico City to the Jardin des Plantes in Paris
| in 1863. Unaware of their neoteny, Auguste Dumeril was
| surprised when, instead of the axolotl, he found in the
| vivarium a new species, similar to the salamander.
| [verification needed] This discovery was the starting point
| of research about neoteny. It is not certain that Ambystoma
| velasci specimens were not included in the original shipment.
| [citation needed] Vilem Laufberger in Prague used thyroid
| hormone injections to induce an axolotl to grow into a
| terrestrial adult salamander. The experiment was repeated by
| Englishman Julian Huxley, who was unaware the experiment had
| already been done, using ground thyroids. [39] Since then,
| experiments have been done often with injections of iodine or
| various thyroid hormones used to induce metamorphosis. [16]
| cbolton wrote:
| I don't recall clearly so that's certainly possible, but it
| seems the Axolotl does have the capability of spontaneous
| metamorphosis. Here are quotes from some publications I
| found.
|
| First, regarding the first individuals imported in Europe
| [1]:
|
| "In November 1865, Dumeril issued another report to the
| Academie des sciences. One of the axolotls had started to
| become "markedly different from the other axolotls of the
| same age." Soon, others followed. The external gills
| disappeared, and the form of their heads and bodies changed
| along with their coloration. Several animals that were born
| in the Collection had left the water and had transformed into
| a land-dwelling form. They had become what Dumeril called
| "ambystomes.""
|
| Then this extract of a Master's thesis [2]:
|
| "Six A. mexicanum were transferred to Paris where Dumeril
| (1870) subsequently reported that individuals reproduced in
| an aquatic, larval state and that some of the resulting
| offspring underwent a metamorphosis. Smith (1989) suggests
| that some of the original stock that arrived in Paris
| included closely related members of the Tiger salamander
| species complex, that are capable of expressing a
| paedomorphic or metamorphic life history. However, it seems
| likely that domestication altered the penetrance for
| expressing paedomorphosis and the original axolotl stock was
| pure A. mexicanum that maintained a higher propensity to
| express metamorphosis in nature (Voss & Shaffer, 2000). Even
| though metamorphic forms have been culled from the Ambystoma
| Genetic Stock Center axolotl collection for decades, the
| frequency of spontaneous metamorphosis is only 1-2%, with a
| 10% frequency observed if A. mexicanum experience stressful
| conditions (Randal Voss, unpublished data)."
|
| And this from a book chapter [3]:
|
| "The modern axolotl strain used in most laboratories is a
| highly inbred population that most likely arose from a
| donation of seven wild axolotls (six wild-type and one white
| mutant) between 1863 and 1866 to the Paris Natural History
| Museum [6] . In fact, most modern-day laboratory axolotls
| likely have a direct lineage to these founders, and all white
| mutants are descendants from this single white animal [7]. A
| few wild-caught axolotls were introduced into the colony
| strain in the 1960s including an albino tiger salamander
| (Ambystoma tigrinum) [8], but overall the present-day
| laboratory strain is likely one of the most long-running
| inbred strains of any laboratory species. The 150-year
| history of laboratory breeding seems to have selected against
| spontaneous metamorphosis (currently <1 % frequency), as it
| is more prevalent in wild strains than the lab strain [7, 9].
| The most extensive colony of laboratory axolotls is
| maintained at the Ambystoma Genetic Stock Center (AGSC)"
|
| In particular this part: "The 150-year history of laboratory
| breeding seems to have selected against spontaneous
| metamorphosis (currently <1 % frequency), as it is more
| prevalent in wild strains than the lab strain."
|
| [1] https://www.brepolsonline.net/doi/full/10.1484/J.CNT.5.13
| 210...
|
| [2] https://uknowledge.uky.edu/biology_etds/13/
|
| [3] https://link.springer.com/protocol/10.1007/978-1-4939-249
| 5-0...
| adelie wrote:
| there's also an instagram user who specializes in rescuing
| morphed axolotls:
| https://www.instagram.com/salamanderwithasign
|
| i think some of the recent posts are about a batch of
| salamander/axolotl hybrids, but if you scroll further down,
| there's more of the morphed axolotls they have.
| hunglee2 wrote:
| it should be noted that this species is not actually in danger of
| extinction, as they are common in the pet trade and seem to be
| easily bred in captivity. Obviously a tragedy that wild
| populations are hanging on with these tiny populations but the
| species will survive in captive form, which can form 'reseeding'
| populations when their natural environment stabilises to sustain
| a breeding population
| mattmaroon wrote:
| I saw a breeding facility they have at the zoo in Mexico City
| when I was there earlier this year and it was amazing.
| csours wrote:
| It makes me really sad to think about the cool animals and plants
| that didn't make it to the modern age.
| burkaman wrote:
| This article glosses over it a bit but the Xochimilco chinampas
| are absolutely incredible and worth visiting if you can find a
| good tour (not just the trajineras pictured in the article).
| Historically the entire area (and most of Mexico City) was a
| lake, and the chinampas were started as floating mats of reeds
| with enough soil on top to to grow crops. Every year you add a
| new layer of soil and fertilizer and the island sinks a little
| more, until eventually it is touching the bottom of the lake
| several hundred years later.
|
| The Wikipedia summary is good:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinampa.
| civilitty wrote:
| _> the chinampas were started as floating mats of reeds with
| enough soil on top to to grow crops. Every year you add a new
| layer of soil and fertilizer and the island sinks a little
| more, until eventually it is touching the bottom of the lake
| several hundred years later._
|
| That description of chinampas is a popular misconception.
| They're "floating" in the sense that they're in the middle of a
| lake but there's no way to float any nontrivial amount of soil
| on top of mats of reeds, there just isn't enough buoyancy and a
| cubic meter of damp soil weighs over a metric ton.
|
| The reeds were used to create underwater fences that would keep
| the underwater pile of soil from spilling out into a giant
| mound, thus allowing the soil to be piled in a vertical pillar
| that easily reaches above the water. After the chinampa was
| filled, they planted trees along the corners and edges so that
| the roots would further hold the chinampa together. They added
| night soil dredged from the lake on top every year to replenish
| the nutrients and replace the soil that gets eroded away by the
| lake but they're filled to the bottom when they're built.
| dekhn wrote:
| https://ambystoma.uky.edu/teachers_materials/axolitbook/Axol...
| neonate wrote:
| https://web.archive.org/web/20231206085505/https://www.nytim...
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(page generated 2023-12-06 23:01 UTC)