[HN Gopher] Russell's Paradox of ghostwriters
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       Russell's Paradox of ghostwriters
        
       Author : luu
       Score  : 23 points
       Date   : 2023-12-05 06:26 UTC (16 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu)
 (TXT) w3m dump (statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu)
        
       | prvc wrote:
       | Where is the paradox?
        
         | javier_e06 wrote:
         | In this town there are two kind of people. Those who write
         | their biographies themselves and those who use the help of the
         | town Ghostwriter. Who writes the Ghostwriter biography?
        
           | gumby wrote:
           | Thanks for phrasing it this way!
        
           | smeagull wrote:
           | The Ghostwriter, but he is of no help.
        
           | readyplayernull wrote:
           | 10,000 monkeys with typewriters!
        
             | hosh wrote:
             | Now we have 70B LLM models.
        
         | Ericson2314 wrote:
         | This piece does seem incomplete, starting off with a big
         | grammar issue
         | 
         | > [...], so much so that when it turned out that one of the
         | books had "at least 95 separate passages" of plagiarism,
         | including "long sections of a chapter on the cardiac health of
         | giraffes."
         | 
         | "so much so that when ..." _what_?!
         | 
         | meta commentary?
        
           | cookie_monsta wrote:
           | > "so much so that when ..."
           | 
           | This is a common enough turn of phrase, at least in my corner
           | of the world. What's your problem with it?
           | 
           | https://www.collinsdictionary.com/sentences/english/so-
           | much-...
        
             | dcminter wrote:
             | The conclusion is missing. Normally the formula is:
             | 
             | "So much so that when {occurrence} {outcome}"
             | 
             | This has the occurrence (the inclusion of the topic) but
             | not the consequent outcome - seems like some anecdote about
             | that author not recollecting the clearly memorable topic
             | got mangled.
             | 
             | There's a missing word later in the piece as well.
        
               | Ericson2314 wrote:
               | Yes exactly, thank you!
        
           | troupe wrote:
           | I think that part was done by the ghostwriter.
        
       | gumby wrote:
       | > In contrast, Malcolm Gladwell deserves credit for producing
       | readable prose while having his own interesting style. I doubt he
       | uses a ghostwriter.
       | 
       | He could use a ghostresearcher. Most of his claims are rather
       | dubious.
       | 
       | There's no shame in it: academics have grad students, who at
       | least sometimes get a mention in the acknowledgements.
        
         | gnulinux wrote:
         | > There's no shame in it: academics have grad students, who at
         | least sometimes get a mention in the acknowledgements.
         | 
         | In what field????? In fields I'm familiar, whoever does the
         | research (i.e. the grad student or the postdoc) is the first
         | author, helpers are co-authors and the PI i.e. the main
         | academic who leads the lab is the last author. In what field PI
         | is the first author and grad students "sometimes get
         | acknowledgement"? That sounds like academic fraud.
        
           | tiffanyg wrote:
           | It used to happen much more in the past. Many decades ago,
           | AFAIK, at least in the journals / fields / areas I'm familiar
           | with.
           | 
           | I'm not sure where that might happen or be tolerated, today.
           | If you go back and look at research into antibiotics, DNA,
           | etc. back in the 1940s and 1950s ... and even research in the
           | 1960s and 1970s, decades later, there ended up being serious
           | questions around ethics, authorship, etc. for some really
           | seminal papers, for example.
        
           | gus_massa wrote:
           | I agree. Grad students _must_ appear in the paper because
           | most universities have an explicit or implicit requirement of
           | a few papers to get the Ph.D.
        
           | jhbadger wrote:
           | It's very field dependent. The first author=person who did
           | most of the work and last author=advisor is pretty much just
           | how biomedical science works. Other fields have different
           | traditions. I'm a computational biologist who has worked in
           | both biology and computer science, and in CS (at least in the
           | 1990s-early 2000s) the tradition was simple alphabetical
           | order, for example, with no privilege afforded to either the
           | first or last place. Along with other quirks like how
           | presenting a result at a conference was considered equal to
           | publishing it as opposed to in biology where conferences are
           | more social networking events.
        
             | two_handfuls wrote:
             | In my experience for computer science (systems field) it's
             | usually the same, first author=most work and last
             | author=advisor.
        
             | jasonhong wrote:
             | In theoretical CS, the convention is still alphabetic
             | order. In most other CS, advisor tends to be last.
        
       | shmoe wrote:
       | Did anyone else read this as "Russell's Paradox of Ghostbusters"
       | the first time?
        
       | aidenn0 wrote:
       | I seem to recall that some of the Stratemeyer[1] series had a bit
       | more of the ghostwriter's personality leak through in the earlier
       | books. I have also been told (but not confirmed myself) that they
       | filed off most of those edges when they revised the books to
       | remove some of the casual racism that hadn't aged well.
       | 
       | 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratemeyer_Syndicate
        
       | jancsika wrote:
       | > "Nearly all experts and celebrities use ghostwriters,"
       | 
       | Funny enough, my mind first went to Bernie Sanders' _My
       | Revolution_.
       | 
       | Either he didn't use a ghostwriter, or the ghostwriter was Larry
       | David doing a Bernie Sanders impression.
       | 
       | The Wikipedia entry for the book doesn't mention a
       | ghostwriter[1]. But after reading this article, I think Wikipedia
       | should have a policy of explicitly stating _so-and-so did not use
       | a ghostwriter_ for what are apparently edge cases.
       | 
       | Hey Wikipedians-- can you make this so?
       | 
       | 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Revolution
        
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