[HN Gopher] From 486 to Vue.js: Evan You's Full-Time Gamble on O...
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From 486 to Vue.js: Evan You's Full-Time Gamble on Open Source
Author : todsacerdoti
Score : 93 points
Date : 2023-12-04 13:21 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (corecursive.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (corecursive.com)
| infecto wrote:
| Have not finished listening but wanted to call out that I really
| enjoy the design of the website. Gives me late 2000s vibes, easy
| to read and navigate. No popovers, clean scrolling. Well done.
| jackconsidine wrote:
| > Nowadays, I don't actually like Hacker News that much, but back
| then, just seeing yourself up there and knowing, "Hey, this is a
| place where people know, oh, it's a big deal you get on Hacker
| News."
|
| Interesting!
| ushakov wrote:
| I hear this often from some OSS startup folks. They consider
| this place toxic and are scared about commenters ruining their
| product's reputation
| throwaway2990 wrote:
| They aren't wrong.
| no_wizard wrote:
| interesting. I hear alot about how HN gives much needed boost
| to public profile and such too.
|
| I wonder if its _how_ its submitted that matters. Things that
| organically end up on the front page face a bit less scrunity
| overall than things that are posted as "Show HN" in my
| ancedotal view
| lloydatkinson wrote:
| Well, the Vue team aren't friendly to criticism of Vue. See
| the 2->3 migration for starters.
| addicted wrote:
| The problem with the criticism of any major effort of that
| sort (which you saw in python2->python3 as well), is that
| any major effort will involve tradeoffs, it will involve
| mistakes, it will involve bad decisions, and it will
| involve good decisions that were poorly executed.
|
| That's absolutely normal. There is no major effort ever in
| the history of software that was absolutely perfect.
|
| But the most upvoted comments almost always tend to be
| focused on those specific mistakes/tradeoffs to the
| detriment of the larger goal and effort. They completely
| decontextualize the criticism from the fact that it may be
| a trade off or just a simple mistake.
|
| And honestly, if I was to submit my closed source project
| and saw those criticism, I wouldn't like it, but I could at
| least understand it.
|
| But it must be ridiculously frustrating for Open Source
| software developers to have put in all this effort and then
| have everyone Monday morning QB on HN once the work has
| been largely completed when they could as easily have gone
| to the project GitHub or community pages and shared their
| feedback constructively when it actually mattered and could
| have had an impact on the direction of the product.
| conradfr wrote:
| I don't follow the development closely so maybe you are
| right but in the end they kept both APIs and did a great
| job with the compatibility layer in 3.1 to help migrate
| from v2.
|
| I don't know many projects which would have done that.
| dmix wrote:
| He addresses this in the interview:
|
| Evan: They're like, "Oh, Vue has scalability issues. We
| have a huge Vue product. We have these huge components
| that nobody wants to touch anymore. We don't know how to
| extract and reuse things. TypeScript support isn't
| great."
|
| Adam: So they started Vue 3, right? A breaking change.
| Vue had to stay relevant. People were looking for a
| scalable, if more complex, framework. Expectations had
| changed.
|
| Evan: They're like, "Hey. You're taking away the very
| reason we love Vue, and it's not going to be Vue
| anymore."
|
| In a way, our early user base are mostly people who
| preferred lightweight solutions, simple interactions,
| simple apps.
|
| So when we propose solutions to address these more
| advanced cases, these simple case users get pissed off
| because they're like, "Don't touch my framework. I don't
| want to work that way."
|
| "I don't care about these complex cases. Why are you
| adding these complex APIs? Why are you making things more
| complicated?" But at the same time, these complex case
| users are like, "I won't use Vue if it stays only for
| simple use cases because it shows it doesn't scale. We
| are gonna just migrate to React, migrate to Angular."
|
| [discussion continues for a while
| https://corecursive.com/vue-with-evan-you/#composition-
| api]
| paradox460 wrote:
| In his defense, the new composition API is _really good_.
| At the level of react hooks vs class components good
| beebeepka wrote:
| A lot of that criticism was nonsense. People heavily
| invested in the old ways are resisting change.
|
| I am in the middle of a massive Vue 2.6 (yea, they didn't
| even try 2.7 because change is hard) to Vue 3 migration
| and most of my problems have nothing to do with Vue and
| everything to do with an army of very opinionated people
| making all the wrong choices in the name of conformity.
| _jesse wrote:
| I think they realized that a large portion of their
| community would have just gone elsewhere if they didn't.
| I was not impressed with how they handled the initial
| criticism--after they backpedaled after realizing that
| deprecating basically the entire current api wasn't
| popular (surprising... lol), they then started saying
| they never intended to deprecate it. It was strange.
|
| I'm still not a huge fan of the composition api. It's
| like a weird version of React function components with
| different quirks. Maybe I just need to use them more and
| I'll eventually get it.
| addicted wrote:
| I'm not surprised. I'm not a major OSS contributor of any
| sort, but I am a lead of a closed source product within my
| company, and if I got the kind of pointless destructive
| criticism that usually makes it to the top of HN comments on
| something my team and I worked hard to create it would be
| beyond frustrating. The only thing that would make it
| tolerable was the fact that at least I got paid to do this.
|
| I can't even imagine how terrible it must feel as an OSS
| contributor or leader who is putting all their effort out
| there in the open for anyone to see and use and they are
| deluged by the most awful petty criticisms.
|
| I really think HN comments probably need some sort of
| "feedback" tab, where the people who are providing what they
| think is constructive feedback can put their comments in, so
| the OSS software developers/contributors can choose to tackle
| the feedback when they are in the mindset to do so.
| capableweb wrote:
| As someone who has launched countless of products,
| services, demos and more on HN (for almost two decades now)
| and other places, you can't really let those overly
| negative comments get to you. And it happens everywhere,
| not just on HN, even though people here tend to try to hit
| your soft spots, for some reason.
|
| But at least I've found that the overly negative comments
| on HN has at least a tiny bit of feedback one could learn
| from, compared to other platforms where it's just outright
| vile comments with zero feedback one could use.
|
| So yeah, HN can be ruthless, but so is the rest of the
| internet. At least here there is a tiny bit of feedback
| mixed in, and usually the rest of the comments have
| something insightful to say.
| KaoruAoiShiho wrote:
| This is true but wasn't this always the case, rather than a
| recent development? The comments tend to trend absurdly
| negative on minor criticism. But I remember the same thing 10
| years ago for the releases of dropbox and the like, always
| some inane complaints that disregard the massive benefits.
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| I could make this in a weekend.
|
| Also, yeah, when something isn't perfect and someone
| latches onto the how and why it's such an awful design or
| decision, how incompetent, I wouldn't trust my business to
| someone who operates like this, etc.
|
| It can be brutal. I still prefer HN to many other places on
| the internet, but sometimes critique here is excessively
| negative and not constructive at all. Even so, it's not all
| bad. I wouldn't post my personal projects here, though.
| divbzero wrote:
| Yes, I think creators who see negative comments here
| should try to internalize some mental jujitsu: If you are
| being criticized excessively, you've created something
| good enough to attract attention and be taken seriously.
| jackconsidine wrote:
| >I think the key moment was I started writing documentation.
| That's the moment I felt like, "Okay, maybe someone else can make
| use of this. Let's see how that goes." So I wrote everything and
| then submitted to Hacker News.
|
| > So when I put Vue on Hacker News, I think it got voted to the
| front page, which was really positive, which is a bit unexpected
| for me.
|
| I think this is the post:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7169288
| trashburger wrote:
| There's even a TempleOS comment buried in there (you need
| showdead enabled)!
| jansan wrote:
| Looking at the user profile, it even looks like user
| "TempleOSV2" was Terry.
| Piraty wrote:
| corecursive is generally a good podcast covering interesting
| problems/projects/people. I listen to it a lot
| CharlesW wrote:
| Good to know! I'm not a regular listener, but I really enjoyed
| the "The Untold Story of SQLite" episode.
| https://corecursive.com/066-sqlite-with-richard-hipp/
| zxt_tzx wrote:
| I liked the SQLite one too! My favorite has got to be the
| Software World Tour one: https://corecursive.com/software-
| world-tour-with-son-luong-n...
| sluongng wrote:
| Oh hey, that's me! Glad that you enjoy the story.
| sluongng wrote:
| I love this story so much. It goes to show that there is an "art"
| side to software creation that is often missed and ignored.
| eigenvalue wrote:
| Shows the value of approaching a problem from a completely
| different perspective and mindset. I bet if Evan had instead
| majored in CS at a top school he would have come up with
| something very different (or just used react or something). It's
| pretty rare to find someone from a design background who can
| master the programming chops to that level while having all the
| design sensibility.
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(page generated 2023-12-05 23:02 UTC)