[HN Gopher] Dark patterns in UX design and how to avoid them
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Dark patterns in UX design and how to avoid them
Author : night-rider
Score : 115 points
Date : 2023-12-02 16:40 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (dodonut.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (dodonut.com)
| rabbits_2002 wrote:
| you can avoid them by not being a horrible person
| arendtio wrote:
| Sadly, it is not that simple. E.g. if your boss wants to see
| the numbers, and the dark pattern performs better. Just
| yesterday we discussed how the 'business' trumps the 'user':
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38483181
|
| Sometimes, measuring long-term effects might be an option, but
| that might also not help. I am still in favor of fighting for a
| good UX, but you should not categorize everybody as a horrible
| person who builds such crap (even though I want to too) ;-)
| danjc wrote:
| A great unpacking of dark patterns but it's not exactly like
| you'll accidentally build them yourself.
| cuu508 wrote:
| You can accidentally lull yourself into thinking a particular
| pattern is not so bad when everyone does it and growth hackers
| recommend it with a straight face. Calling them out removes
| [any potential] ambiguity.
| Version467 wrote:
| I actually wouldn't be too sure about that. Some dark patterns
| have become so ubiquitous that a new developer might just think
| that that's the way to implement certain features.
| FinnKuhn wrote:
| some of them look like someone just didn't think it all the way
| through, for example the nextdoor email unsubscribe switch
| would have been clear had it been a checkbox or with clearer
| wording, but only in combination it is unclear.
| jzombie wrote:
| If a newsletter subscription really has a "don't not opt in"
| checkbox, I can't imagine how horribly worded and confusing the
| actual crappy freaking newsletter must be.
| charles_f wrote:
| Murder weapons in daily life and how to avoid murdering people.
|
| Step 1. Murder weapons allow to murder people. Murdering is bad.
|
| Step 2. Avoid using murder weapons to murder people.
|
| Next week: Manipulative techniques in psychology and how to avoid
| manipulating people.
| russelldjimmy wrote:
| It feels to me like the author compiled a list of 10 things that
| annoyed them the week prior, gave each of them an important
| sounding name and made an article of it.
|
| Not that I support any of these patterns, but there's a reason
| companies do them. Just telling someone to not do them will not
| stop companies from doing them.
| klabb3 wrote:
| Honestly I think this content is a bit educational for us
| techies, but yes, it's mostly just "business as usual" these
| days.
|
| However, if this type of content was aimed towards grandmas,
| boomers, etc it could have a huge positive effect. The people
| most susceptible to dark patterns are those who don't know
| better.
|
| As I've written in another comment, my mom has needed help to
| make "her computer work again" after Microsoft has changed her
| default browser to edge. It happens (seemingly) on every
| meaningless update.
|
| It should be illegal.
| timeon wrote:
| > there's a reason companies do them
|
| Yes modern UX (or what we just call 'UX') is based on dark
| patterns and psychological manipulation. Even something as
| innocent as gamification is manipulation exploiting same thing
| as gambling. So yes there is reason companies doing them:
| trapping user.
| unconed wrote:
| Yes, they do them because they are scummy.
|
| "Maybe later" is the best example.
|
| No excuse for this other than them refusing to understand.
|
| Which is why, when companies try to apply dark patterns to you,
| you should bug the fuck out of their support channel.
|
| Slack changed the design again to push features you never use?
| Ask support how to get the old design back. Be incessant. Act
| like it's the most sensible possible request and they are just
| not getting it.
| arendtio wrote:
| Sounds like you want more sources to prove that the author
| didn't make up that term ;-)
|
| Obligatory Wikipedia page:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_pattern
|
| A study about dark pattern usage from my bookmarks:
| https://webtransparency.cs.princeton.edu/dark-patterns/
|
| The page I have always in my mind when the term comes up:
| http://darkpattern.org -> redirects to
| https://www.deceptive.design
|
| Just for fun (it has some gems):
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
|
| From the results: 'I was let go for refusing to deploy a dark
| pattern' https://www.peachesnstink.com/p/6pJoCuczOj8cxCUQDMlfQv
| adamjc wrote:
| Dark patterns are never accidental.
| matchbok wrote:
| Funny that this website has the ever-annoying scroll indicator.
| Why don't web designers understand we already have a scroll
| indicator? It's called the scroll bar. There is literally no
| function for these things.
| FinnKuhn wrote:
| Had the scroll indicator in the heading excluded the massive
| footer might have offered something of value, but with this
| lazy implementation ist shows that you haven't finished the
| article even though you have and only completes when you scroll
| through the giant footer.
| lopkeny12ko wrote:
| I take it you've never used a Mac, for which--by Apple's
| infinite wisdom--scroll bars are not visible by default.
|
| It's one of the most asinine design decisions (of many more) of
| Macs, and leads to web designers adding equally asinine scroll
| indicators on websites.
| butz wrote:
| We should probably add "scrollbar" to @supports CSS queries
| to fix that.
| tempodox wrote:
| It's not like dark patterns happen by accident. I don't think
| perpetrators have any interest in avoiding them.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| Yes, that's the difference between dark patterns and regular
| anti-patterns.
| n8cpdx wrote:
| Aside: I absolutely adore the design of this website. I've tried
| to do something like it in my personal projects, but I'm not a
| designer and it always comes out as the wish.com version. Props
| and respect.
|
| Serious: I think this actually highlights the importance of
| ethics as a field of study for everyone going into
| computing/software/information work professionally.
|
| I don't think any of us want to live in a world where our
| computers are lying, tricking, deceiving, fooling, shaming, or
| manipulating us. Yet so many of us ignore the ethical
| implications of our work to make a quick buck.
|
| It is clear as day to me that these things are wrong. It wasn't
| always like that. In college I thought the idea of teaching
| ethics was stupid, and we should do whatever we can to fuck
| people over (I wouldn't have used those terms). I don't know why
| I grew out of that, but I did, and I think the world might be
| better off if the people who knew better intervened earlier in
| people's careers.
|
| This is your sign to reflect on how many times you have been an
| enemy to your fellow man through your work (and if your work
| scales, an enemy to thousands to billions of people), and start
| your job search if that number bothers you.
| arpowers wrote:
| This article should be called "how to get fired as a UX designer"
| amatecha wrote:
| "How to get fired from an unethical employer because you didn't
| create the manipulative designs they expected" and/or "how to
| surface whether your employer is garbage and you should start
| looking for a better place to work". :)
| lopkeny12ko wrote:
| The premise of this article makes no sense to me. It's suggesting
| that one needs to actively expend effort to avoid "accidentally"
| implementing dark patterns. You could just...not build them. If I
| click yes, I mean yes, if I click no, I mean no--it's _more_
| complex for developers and designers alike to add friction to
| that flow.
| SPBS wrote:
| > Companies can find several reasons to avoid dark patterns. By
| following best design practices, they can build a positive brand
| image, maintain customer trust, and adhere to legal and ethical
| standards.
|
| I don't think Amazon Prime or New York Times making it hard to
| cancel subscriptions is putting a dent in their brand image. Big
| companies can and will get away with it.
| charlieyu1 wrote:
| > I don't think Amazon Prime or New York Times making it hard
| to cancel subscriptions is putting a dent in their brand image.
| Big companies can and will get away with it.
|
| People should complain more and there should be more outrage.
| This is one of very effective way to keep the big companies in
| line. We are in a society that discourages complaining even if
| it is completely justified.
| ghostpepper wrote:
| I'm a paying subscriber to NYT but if I click a link when I'm
| not logged in, this is what I get:
|
| A screen that tries to offer me an introductory rate with a
| big subscribe now button and a small log in link. When I
| click log in,
|
| A username form only - ie. no password form until I've
| submitted my username, which means I need to invoke my
| password manager twice. Then before I see the original
| article
|
| A fullscreen modal wanting me to upgrade my subscription to
| get "All of the times" which includes News, Games, Cooking,
| Wirecutter and the Athletic (no pricing info), just a big
| Upgrade Now button or a small "continue without upgrading"
| link
|
| before finally allowing me to access the article.
| butz wrote:
| Talking about dark patterns: what is "Statsy" and why is it
| trying to send out "a beep" every second?
| oooyay wrote:
| Are there folks who work on front ends and in design here who
| have been explicitly told to implement these?
| mock-possum wrote:
| I was doing some contract work with an ad agency, client was
| Cisco, and part of the site was a 'sign up for this thing' page
| - and of course they wanted the 'subscribe to promotional
| emails' box checked by default when the form was presented to
| the user.
|
| And I was like - nobody actually likes that though. Nobody
| likes that, people resent it, it's basically a way to trick
| people into giving you permission to send them spam.
|
| Everyone kind of laughed and agreed, but the account supe was
| like "yeah, but it's what the client wants, so"
|
| Tech lead was walking past my desk on his way out at the end of
| the day, and he was like, "the thing about the subscription
| box? Let's just 'forget' to do it and see if anybody notices."
|
| Seemed like a good thing to do, so we did - but it came back as
| a QA ticket, and we deprioritized it, until finally the account
| guy swung by my desk and was like, "I know we don't like the
| checkbox thing, but we do actually need to do it."
|
| And I was like alright fine I'll do the checkbox thing
|
| wah-wah.
| sanitycheck wrote:
| I don't even bother raising it as a problem these days. More
| effective is to implement it exactly as specified so the
| designer is happy and the the managers are happy and the
| client is happy.
|
| Then a month or so later, "accidentally" introduce a
| regression. Oops, the checkbox isn't checked by default any
| more! Nobody is thinking about it by then, nobody is checking
| it, and nobody will notice.
| oooyay wrote:
| Smells like https://grugbrain.dev/#grug-on-saying-ok
| pstorm wrote:
| These are tame compared to some of the stuff I have been tasked
| with at a previous company. I don't want to go into specifics
| really, but I can tell you that it sort of became normal.
| Should we test out defaulting the newsletter checkbox? Sure, oh
| great, it improved newsletter conversions! Should we show a
| fake "X amount of people viewed this product"? Sure, if it
| works we can actually implement it! Etc. etc.
|
| Until I was outside of the culture of the company for a bit, I
| didn't see any issue. Improvement of metrics was all that
| mattered.
| alentred wrote:
| Kudos to the author _for actually pointing these out_. A lot of
| those are the patterns that everyone got used to: they can be
| seen universally across the Internet, and some have been used for
| so long that it is probable that many users (and developers, and
| designers) don 't even realize they _are_ the dark patterns. Some
| are of course used intentionally, but I would guess some of the
| new web sites and web apps use them "just because everyone else
| does it".
|
| Unfortunately for us, there is no easy solution, though. I think
| that the suggested solutions are too lightweight to be
| convincing, although I agree with the general idea: do your
| research, get the real competitive advantage. But this is easier
| said than done, while the dark patterns are easier to use. Like
| the Dark Force. Not sure the Force wins in real life eventually,
| but I surely hope so.
| andersrs wrote:
| It's the e-commerce equivalent of putting the finger on the
| scale. Maybe there should be some laws against it but can you
| imagine politicians understanding any of this? Every undo action
| such as un-subscribing should be equally as easy as the original
| action.
|
| Neal.fun has an entire page of dark patterns in one demo:
| https://neal.fun/dark-patterns/
| Nextgrid wrote:
| Politicians understand this very well, in the sense that every
| time there's wind of pro-consumer regulations, companies are
| happy to spoil the politician in money and benefits if he
| stands against said regulation.
| karaterobot wrote:
| This article shouldn't be addressed to designers, it should be
| addressed to product managers, or to leadership who sets OKRs.
| The issue is not designers not knowing this is wrong, or being
| able to think of alternatives. The issue is not that the
| designer, on their own initiative, decides to make a user-hostile
| product. The issue is that product teams are being strongly
| incentivized or even directly ordered to implement dark patterns
| like this. If it was just the designer calling for the use of
| dark patterns, and everybody else in the organization was against
| it, it wouldn't happen. Likewise, if the designer is the only one
| in the organization who advises against it, guess what? It's
| happening anyway.
| MaxBarraclough wrote:
| Agree. The article even states:
|
| > _Dark patterns are not present in user experiences by
| mistake. They are carefully crafted to appear during a certain
| moment of the user interaction process._
|
| Despite this, there's a section named _How to Avoid Dark
| Patterns in UX Design_. This section doesn 't really deliver on
| its title, as of course the real answer is that you simply
| don't adopt dark patterns.
|
| Most of the article is a tour of the most common dark patterns.
| The _10 Dark Patterns in UX Design_ part is fine, but the _and
| How to Avoid Them_ part doesn 't make much sense.
| RecycledEle wrote:
| "OKR" stands for Objectives and Key Results. OKRs are an
| effective goal-setting...
|
| Source: https://www.whatmatters.com/faqs/okr-meaning-
| definition-exam...
| yawnxyz wrote:
| if you set aggressive goals, people will start cheating or
| abusing a system to hit those goals
| 6stringmerc wrote:
| Bumble's platform is a Dark Pattern.
|
| OnlyFans is a Dark Pattern via Tools.
|
| It needs a new name. It's not a Dark Pattern if so many firms are
| employing it successfully for profit.
|
| Obviously the community isn't self policing. Cartels do a better
| job down in Mexico overall in my opinion. Rather it's clear the
| incentive in this sector in particular (new tech / apps) only
| leads to further development and twisting and bending into it
| becoming normalized somewhat or somehow.
|
| See also: the success of microtransactions and who made money on
| them
| arun-mani-j wrote:
| LinkedIn deserves an entire article to list their each and every
| dark pattern. Some of the few that come to my mind:
|
| - Asking you to install app when browsing from mobile (which goes
| away when you use "Desktop Mode").
|
| - Saying that you have a message in your inbox but not the very
| message itself.
|
| BTW, Do we have an open source alternative to LinkedIn like there
| is Mastodon to Twitter? :(
|
| Another teeth-biting favorite is Adobe's "free" online tools
| (like PDF pages splitter etc.) where you will be able to do
| everything and once you click "Download", Adobe asks you to
| create an account to continue. :/
| andersrs wrote:
| LinkedIn cannot hold a candle Booking.com and their artificial
| scarcity fear mongering.
| yawnxyz wrote:
| just tried Booking.com the other day and seems like... most
| of those have gone away? Or maybe they're gone in Australia
| b/c of the consumer protection laws here?
| mitthrowaway2 wrote:
| I think dark patterns mostly work against the long-term interests
| of the companies that deploy them. But a big problem is that dark
| patterns drive _measurable_ benefits but are associated with
| _unmeasurable_ costs. So metrics-driven teams can end up
| deploying them to the long-term detriment of the company itself.
| Management needs to ensure that teams are not sacrificing
| intangible soft capital in order to meet measurable goals.
|
| For example, a dark pattern might increase subscription
| conversion rate, time spent on a page, and so on -- which can be
| directly measured and appear in OKRs -- but may also result in
| people developing negative associations with your brand and
| gradually avoiding visiting your site in the first place, when
| they see it in a linked URL.
|
| Think of a website that is relatively free of dark patterns --
| maybe McMaster-Carr or something -- and notice how often you
| might find yourself looking there first. That's good-will, a
| valuable but ephemeral resource which is be very hard for a
| company to quantify, and therefore easy and tempting to spend
| down in pursuit of short-term gains.
| ProxCoques wrote:
| I'm a UX designer who has worked at large online brands for the
| last 15 years and I completely agree with this. For all the
| millions companies spend on "analytics", they have no ability
| to measure the effect of any given design intervention over
| anything more than the duration of a test. So they don't care -
| because they can't.
|
| As a designer, you have to accept that. If a design you know
| customers hate has shown a positive effect for the business
| (and no, they don't re-test these things - it's first past the
| post my friends), then that design is there to stay. You can
| try your best to persuade everyone otherwise, but only the law
| courts can save you.
|
| This, along with the usually quite early realisation that the
| people you work for couldn't tell a good design if it exploded
| in their custard, is probably about the worst thing about
| working as a designer in a commercial context. Just about.
| aidos wrote:
| I had a lovely one the other day when trying to contact
| FreshWorks support. I just want to cancel an account but as far
| as I can tell they've sunset the service so I'm forced to go
| through the support process.
|
| I couldn't even submit the form without ticking the following:
|
| > I would like to receive marketing communications related to
| Freshworks' business, services, and events. I can unsubscribe
| from these communications at any time.
|
| The only email I've received since has been a fake real sales
| email with no unsubscribe link.
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(page generated 2023-12-02 23:01 UTC)