[HN Gopher] ASML names Christophe Fouquet as new CEO
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ASML names Christophe Fouquet as new CEO
Author : newswasboring
Score : 87 points
Date : 2023-12-01 12:47 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (nltimes.nl)
(TXT) w3m dump (nltimes.nl)
| jedisct1 wrote:
| It's pretty nuts that so many industries directly or indirectly
| depend on ASML, and that they have no competition.
|
| How come companies like TSMC can't build their own machines? Is
| there really only one company in the world that has the required
| skills? Or is it only because of patents and exclusivity
| agreements?
| arethuza wrote:
| I suspect having close partnerships with the likes of Carl
| Zeiss AG who do the optics for the EUV machines will be part of
| it.
| amelius wrote:
| Why wouldn't Zeiss want to profit from more clients?
| arethuza wrote:
| I would suspect that they have exclusivity deals with ASML?
|
| Edit: It looks like the Carl Zeiss subsidiary that does the
| semiconductor manufacturing tech is part owned by ASML:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Zeiss_SMT
|
| Edit2: Looks like ASML invested a billion Euros into Carl
| Zeiss SMT:
|
| https://www.asml.com/en/news/press-releases/2016/zeiss-
| and-a...
| kergonath wrote:
| It's like Apple and TSMC. At this scale, both benefit if
| a large customer helps funding its critical supplier's
| technology and infrastructure developments. It's a
| symbiotic relationship, both suffer if one has serious
| issues.
|
| On one hand it's anti-competitive because it makes it
| more difficult for the customer's competitors to use
| leading edge technologies; on the other those leading
| edge technologies would be much harder and take longer to
| develop without the customer's contribution.
| amelius wrote:
| How much did Apple invest in TSMC?
|
| And how is it symbiotic if Zeiss can't take other
| customers?
| sjsdaiuasgdia wrote:
| > And how is it symbiotic if Zeiss can't take other
| customers?
|
| Guaranteed revenue that doesn't need sales/marketing to
| keep going.
| verall wrote:
| > How much did Apple invest in TSMC?
|
| A bunch, like more than a million dollars
| kergonath wrote:
| It's a specific part of Zeiss, it's not like they bet the
| whole group on it. It's symbiotic because they help ASML
| get better machines, which helps ASML get more money, a
| part of which is funnelled back to its suppliers. In the
| end it's a risk assessment: what is the expected value if
| we get closer to a single partner, compared to trying for
| a broader market. Also, bear in mind that both sides have
| to keep the other working: the customer without suppliers
| is just as dead as the supplier without customers.
|
| So: they depend on each other, and they get more business
| and make more money by getting closer and have incentives
| to help the other improve (so it is not an adversarial
| relationship). Hence, symbiosis.
| infecto wrote:
| I don't believe it has much to do with patents, though I
| suppose it helps. They have the talent, existing knowledge and
| the manufacturing capabilities to make it happen. One machine,
| which kind of looks like a CNC machine to me, can cost
| $200-400million IIRC.
|
| Another way to look at it, China would love to be able to copy
| their processes and has not yet been able to do so.
| micwag wrote:
| There is definitely some patent, exclusivity agreements and
| protectionism going on. But the bigger factor is, that the
| semiconductor supply chain is very deep and development is VERY
| expensive and long. In addition to that there was a major
| switch from lenses to mirror in the lithography system, so
| everything is very new.
|
| I know of multiple suppliers down the supply chain which had to
| invest billions and had to wait 10 years before they even saw a
| penny.
|
| There is a reason why everybody else essentially gave up.
| baybal2 wrote:
| Lack of experience.
|
| Most of the West has bailed out of the electronics race so long
| ago, that the experience gap in between practice, and what is
| told in universities is like 20-30 years now.
|
| No university in the world will teach you how to make a modern
| stepper. Most of research in this space been going behind
| closed doors from the beginning of the semiconductor industry,
| and nearly completely closed since around 2010.
|
| Only places like IMEC and few others are semi-public windows to
| what happens behind closed doors.
|
| In principle, physics behind the operation of a stepper is
| nothing secret, components not secret, manufacturing techniques
| not secret, but the experience of how to arrange all of above
| in a way it is known to work is only available to, I would say,
| less than 100 people worldwide.
| verall wrote:
| But we learned all about stepper motors in undergrad EE!
| username_my1 wrote:
| As far as I know it's also the only company in the world where
| the US goverment has a major stake in (25% I think).
|
| Good news is that China has delivered their 8mm lithography
| machines and are promising 3mm sometime in the next two years.
| maybe this will introduce more competion down the road
| arethuza wrote:
| I don't see any listing for USG in their shareholders?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding
| stephenitis wrote:
| do you have a source to cite for this?
| st_goliath wrote:
| > ... 8mm lithography machines and are promising 3mm sometime
| in the next two years.
|
| Wait what? I've soldered SMD parts smaller than that, I guess
| I could do 3mm lithography free-hand with a good razor blade.
|
| Sounds like I'd have a nice head-start in the "cutting-edge"
| field of sub-centimeter lithography.
| maxfurman wrote:
| I think GP means nm, not mm
| manuelabeledo wrote:
| > Good news is that China has delivered their 8mm lithography
| machines and are promising 3mm sometime in the next two
| years. maybe this will introduce more competion down the road
|
| I have my doubts about this.
|
| SMIC is still struggling with 7nm, unable to deliver at
| scale. 3nm in two years sounds like a leap.
| MangoCoffee wrote:
| >China has delivered their 8mm lithography machines
|
| Do you mean 28nm?
|
| https://www.tomshardware.com/news/chinas-first-28nm-
| capable-...
| skrebbel wrote:
| It's simply decades of R&D that no other company has done.
| Barring maybe Canon and Nikon but they're pretty far behind.
|
| ASML machines are truly a marvel of engineering. And duct tape
| btw, but also engineering.
|
| There's no fundamental reason other companies couldn't compete.
| Simply invest tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of man-years
| and there you go, a second ASML.
| kvemkon wrote:
| > It's simply decades of R&D that no other company has done.
|
| ASML machines consist of at least two main parts: laser and
| lenses. Both has been engineered by third-party firms: TRUMPF
| (laser) and Carl Zeiss (lenses).
|
| > Simply invest tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of man-
| years and there you go, a second ASML.
|
| As it is often, you'd just need to know where to buy your
| start (remember MS DOS) and then you can invest a lot from
| your first revenues.
|
| Canon might come up with a good different solution
| (13.10.2023):
|
| - Canon, [], launches ASML challenge with machine to make the
| most advanced chips
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37870372
|
| - Canon Nanoimprint lithography semiconductor manufacturing
| system (5nm) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37894925
|
| - Canon Prepares Nanoimprint Lithography Tool to Challenge
| EUV Scanners https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37917587
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| _> ASML machines consist of at least two main parts: laser
| and lenses. Both has been engineered by third-party firms:
| TRUMPF (laser) and Carl Zeiss (lenses)._
|
| Correction: not lasers and lenses, but EUV light-source and
| mirrors.
|
| The TRUMPF laser in the EUV machines is nothing too
| special, but the Cymer EUV light source, consisting of
| blasting tin microdroplets at the right angles at speed,
| with said lasers, is the secret sauce.
|
| And mirrors are used instead, because lenses would absorb
| the EUV radiation.
| dkjaudyeqooe wrote:
| The mirrors and lasers are not the hard part, the secret
| sauce is the light source and getting the machines to
| perform at a level that makes them economically viable.
| skrebbel wrote:
| FWIW the Zeiss relationship is perfectly symbiotic, in that
| there's an exclusivity deal and neither company can do
| without the other. For all intents and purposes you can
| regard ASML and (the litho department of) Zeiss as a single
| company.
|
| But the ASML machines are substantially more than just some
| purchased parts put together. There's a lot of unique
| engineering in bits that you can't easily point at as a
| "part", such as the entire metrology software - that's the
| bit that measures how badly positioned and how crooked the
| wafer is and adjusts the laser and all stage positioning
| etc accordingly. You can't buy stuff like that off the
| shelf, it's all developed in-house. And they have a whole
| bunch of things like that, which are like part physics,
| part math, part mechanics, part software and part
| choosing/speccing (and sometimes designing) the exact right
| parts.
|
| Canon's new effort looks promising indeed btw, would be
| great if ASML gets some serious competition one day.
| jacquesm wrote:
| And some very smart strategic acquisitions, for instance:
|
| https://www.asml.com/en/news/press-releases/2012/asml-to-
| acq...
| prof-dr-ir wrote:
| The duct tape parts are probably a fantastic moat in itself -
| ASML's institutional knowledge of where and how to apply such
| duct tape solutions might be the most difficult to replicate
| by another company.
| skrebbel wrote:
| Yep. The organization is as duct-taped as the machines they
| build and it's kinda mad.
| bee_rider wrote:
| There's something neat and vaguely sci-fi in the fact that we
| all just call them ASML machines.
|
| Like we're in a book and the author needs a technobabble
| device that is made by just one organization, but
| incongruously powers entire industries that are foundational
| to the whole economy, but obviously coming up with an actual
| description of the device is a bit beyond the ability of the
| author. So they just call it "the companyname machine" and
| let the reader come up with details. "Oh it uses mirrors and
| lenses and concentrates light in a special way that nobody
| can replicate." Reality is a hack author.
| kanzure wrote:
| ASML has extremely important infrastructure. I hear a lot about
| ASML having something that can't be replicated without billions
| and billions etc. But how much of this is propaganda? Is it
| really true that this is the only way to run the semiconductor
| industry? Open up their tech, and then we will know for sure. A
| million people would race to make this as cheap as possible.
| emptyfile wrote:
| >How come companies like TSMC can't build their own machines?
|
| Why should they be able to?
|
| >Is there really only one company in the world that has the
| required skills?
|
| Yes, they invested for decades into R&D for EUV lithography.
|
| >Or is it only because of patents and exclusivity agreements?
|
| No, they have a multi billion dollar and decade long lead.
|
| It makes much more sense to try and pour money into a next
| generation manufacturing technology and work on it. Easier said
| then done.
| next_xibalba wrote:
| What is most surprising to me is that Chinese companies have
| not yet successfully stolen the IP yet. Why is this? I guess
| the same is true with TSMC and its cutting edge chips. Do these
| companies just have better security, or is it the nature of the
| tech?
| yladiz wrote:
| My guess is the latter. Some of the things that ASML makes
| are extremely challenging to manufacture, even if you know
| how to do it (certain pieces of the EUV systems), as well as
| things that come from other companies like the mirrors from
| Zeiss. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if China has some
| stolen IP, but I don't think it would be that helpful given
| the above.
| audunw wrote:
| As far as I know they never got a single machine. So they
| can't easily reverse engineer it.
|
| They're struggling already just to copy the previous
| generation DUV machines, and that's while having a bunch of
| machines they can study and copy.
|
| A lot of technology you can't really just copy it. You need
| the whole supply chain and expert support around it. Like
| with EUV they'd need someone like Zeiss to make the mirrors.
| Even the parts holding the mirrors are extremely niche and
| extremely hard to make.
|
| SMIC could copy older TSMC tech because they could buy the
| same machines and poach engineers from TSMC. That's just not
| viable for EUV.
| dkjaudyeqooe wrote:
| I don't think you have any idea of how hard EUV was to pull
| off.
|
| They toiled for 20 years without guarantee of success. They
| managed to pull it off and now they own the bleeding edge
| process and will do for the foreseeable future. If someone
| wants to do the same, they can become competitors.
|
| It's not just a question of patents, they keep almost
| everything about these machines secret.
| smueller1234 wrote:
| Back in 2005 the researchers who worked on EUV lensing
| (mirrors, really) were very cynical and thought that it would
| never pan out. Coffee breaks were hilarious. It ultimately
| took a whole lot of time indeed.
| ahartmetz wrote:
| It's kind of a miracle that no one at ASML made "the hard but
| necessary decision" to give up on EUV.
| tonyhb wrote:
| The research wasn't done by them -- it was paid for by the
| US gov't and developed at US labs. ASML were given the
| research knowing that it could work.
| _fizz_buzz_ wrote:
| That is a bit of an oversimplification of what happened.
| A lot of basic research was done by US labs. But it took
| ASML almost 20 years to convert this research into a
| production ready system and nobody else succeeded. And
| they also got some big research grants from the EU[1]
|
| [1]https://cordis.europa.eu/project/id/28160
| ahartmetz wrote:
| The US had an EUV project that ran like 2-3 years and
| cost a few millions. ASML spent two decades and billions
| on it. That's like saying that the Manhattan project was
| given to the US by Lise Meitner and Otto Hahn.
| Timshel wrote:
| If you want some insight on how complex and expensive latest
| lithographic process are check Asianometry on YT (ex:
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SB8qIO6Ti_M)
| pkaye wrote:
| The US government did a lot of EUV research through the 1990s
| via three national labs (Livermore, Berkeley and Sandia). Then
| when trying to commercialize it a consortium of US companies
| were involved. ASML, Canon and Nikon were also interested by
| only ASML was allowed in. Ultimately ASML acquired SVG and
| became the sole benefactor of this research at that time. ASML
| agreed to maintain US production and R&D as part of this. It
| also gives US some leverage to deny sales of that technology to
| China.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_ultraviolet_lithograph...
| gosub100 wrote:
| I want to add one word that is missing (but implied) in the
| many replies: _light_. It 's that hard to make _EUV Light_ in
| sufficient concentrations to burn wafers. If you could do that,
| you would be 85-90% of the way there.
| dragonelite wrote:
| It all worked well pre tech war, east and west semiconductor
| studios were customers at TSMC and TSMC was a customer at ASML.
| Then the US started the tech war and the world started
| bifurcating somewhere in the middle term into a NATOstan and
| BRICS world..
|
| The question should now be how fast can innovation happen with
| 2 or maybe even 3 supply lines instead of 1 global supply line
| for semi conductors.
| falserum wrote:
| > I am proud that ASML has been able to grow a technologist like
| Christophe into the CEO position
|
| So he is/was a techy. Nice.
| sixhobbits wrote:
| Sad that this isn't default and is said with some
| condescension. If you read Bullshit Jobs he goes into some
| history of how recent the idea of a "professional CEO" (someone
| who doesn't necessarily have expertise in the field that they
| are now top decision maker in) is. Not sure it's going to last
| long.
| mrtksn wrote:
| He appears to hold phd in Physics but his role in ASML was Sr
| Director of Marketing -> VP Product Management -> EVP EUV
| business Line - ASML Board Member
|
| So, not sure how techie was he in regard of the company duties.
| skrebbel wrote:
| Marketing at ASML isn't designing billboard ads. It's a very
| technical role.
|
| That said I do wonder how much marketing a monopolist needs.
| nwiswell wrote:
| > That said I do wonder how much marketing a monopolist
| needs.
|
| Marketing in this context means figuring out what the
| customer will buy, and making sure that the engineers build
| that.
|
| It is very easy in this industry to build the wrong thing.
| Even the customer does not necessarily know what they will
| want or need in a few years.
|
| A lot of the time it can mean predicting the future
| integration scheme, and deducing the future pain points
| from that. As you say, it's a very technical role, and you
| cannot succeed without a deep understanding of the entire
| process flow.
|
| It's also a no-brainer to transition to strategic
| leadership, because that's basically what you've been doing
| the whole time.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I used to work for a competitor of ASML.
|
| You do _not_ want to screw up deals with this kind of
| kit. The price tag of a single order can be nine digits,
| and it needs to be kept BSL4 clean, from first baseplate,
| to final install.
|
| I heard about our company selling a whole line of
| steppers to a Korean company. They had to be flown out in
| special 747s, because BSL4, and installed on site.
|
| Then, the customer's company went belly up.
|
| They cut the power to the fab (Maybe like this?[0]).
|
| Instant junkyard.
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Uy9wsfkok
|
| _[EDIT] Corrected "BL5" to "BSL4" -Still probably
| inappropriate_
| dtech wrote:
| What is BL5? Google doesn't yield anything.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I think it stands for "Bio-Level 5". I have a friend that
| works for a major sterilizer company, and he uses the
| term a lot. It may be an inappropriate term, in this
| context.
|
| Basically, it means "Full bunny suit."[0]
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0bMN9xh9hM
|
| _[EDIT] I was wrong. I should have said "BSL4", (my
| friend exaggerates), but the deal is that it is done
| under the highest clean room conditions. (I was never in
| that part of the company. I was in the optical part)._
| pseg134 wrote:
| It would be nicer if we could start getting some diversity in
| the semiconductor industry but I guess we will have to keep
| waiting...
| bell-cot wrote:
| In theory, yes. But for an extremely bright, driven 18-year-
| old, which of these career paths looks like the better
| choice?
|
| (1) Ph.D. in physics (~9 grueling years), then - if you're
| sufficiently awesome - ~23 years working your way up in
| industry to become the CEO at ASML at age 50.
|
| (2) B.S. in Computer Science (4-5 years), then get a FAANG or
| near-equivalent job and start raking in the money.
|
| And if you're extra-ambitions...you might note that every
| single one of Forbes current 11-youngest-billionaires either
| inherited the big bucks, or raked it in by founding
| software/crypto firms. Zero of 'em went anywhere near "uber-
| difficult engineering technology" stuff, like semiconductor
| manufacturing.
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| _> or raked it in by founding software/crypto firms._
|
| That's not exactly something to be proud of in life or
| someone to look up to. Charles Ponzi, Andrew Tate, and the
| dozens of other influencers also became quite wealthy by
| finding legal ways to part desperate people of their money.
|
| _> Zero of 'em went anywhere near "uber-difficult
| engineering technology" stuff, like semiconductor
| manufacturing._
|
| And yet thank God we have no shortage of people who take
| the difficult path to working on the cutting edge
| technology to move humanity and the world forward instead
| of choosing the easy way of moving buffers around to push
| ads to people for big money, because we can't have a world
| where everybody is a webdev(satirized well by South Park).
| Almondsetat wrote:
| Diversity in what?
| orangepurple wrote:
| I love the HN posters that ask if something was written by an
| LLM or CEO because nobody can tell the difference.
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| _" What kind of world we live in where someone else is making
| the world a better place instead of us?!"_
| kergonath wrote:
| What's not mentioned is that he used to work in technical roles
| with KLA and Applied Materials, and has been with ASML for 15
| years. He's very much an insider and knows the industry very
| well.
| skrebbel wrote:
| I'm more curious who gets to be the new CTO. Van den Brink knows
| the whole damn machine by heart + the people who made it, gonna
| be a hard gap to fill.
| rikschennink wrote:
| Completely random, but Christophe gets his hair cut in my
| sister's tiny hair salon.
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