[HN Gopher] Roundcube open-source webmail software merges with N...
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Roundcube open-source webmail software merges with Nextcloud
Author : mikece
Score : 262 points
Date : 2023-11-29 11:03 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.phoronix.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.phoronix.com)
| nik736 wrote:
| Will Roundcube still be a seperated project or will it be
| included in Nextcloud? If they integrate it to heavily in the
| Nextcloud stuff I won't be using it anymore. :-)
| ekianjo wrote:
| There is no reason why both can't continue at the same time.
| j16sdiz wrote:
| Of course they can! Just wait until they shift focus or
| somebody shouts efficiency.
| jospoortvliet wrote:
| Note that we're not backed by a a venture capital firm that
| needs a 10X exit, we're self-funded and have been
| sustainably growing ~50%/year since we got started. We're
| over 100 people so paying for 2 developers on Roundcube
| (tripling the resources being put into Roundcube today)
| would be trivial for us.
|
| We'll look what users want, what's best for the ecosystem
| etc, but we're not looking to kill it and if we ever would,
| it won't be for the money.
| doublerabbit wrote:
| > Nextcloud Mail will evolve as it is, focused on being used
| naturally within Nextcloud. Roundcube will continue to serve
| its active and new users as a stand-alone secure mail client.
|
| I don't think so, as then Web Hosting Panels would loose out.
| But, you never know.
| unixhero wrote:
| I have used it for 5 years for my business. Never any single
| hickup.
| preya2k wrote:
| I'm glad the post states that Roundcube will stay an independent
| product.
|
| Roundcube is on a whole other level in terms of stability and
| robustness compared to Nextcloud.
|
| I'm also glad that the current Nextcloud client will be replaced,
| because it's not very good right now.
| stratom wrote:
| Nextcloud Mail won't be replaced by Roundcube!
|
| "Neither will Roundcube replace Nextcloud Mail or the other way
| around. ... Nextcloud Mail will evolve as it is, focused on
| being used naturally within Nextcloud."
| preya2k wrote:
| Thanks for the reminder. I still expect Roundcube to become a
| well-maintained alternative for E-Mail clients within
| Nextcloud, right?
| noname120 wrote:
| Will it be like Microsoft saying that VS Code wouldn't
| replace Atom after the merger? Not that I like Atom, quite
| the opposite.
| Night_Thastus wrote:
| Atom was my first proper Editor. I miss it, even though
| there were a _lot_ of bugs. It was so much fun finding all
| the cool community-made packages and trying them out.
| youdontknowjuli wrote:
| I really tried to make Nextcloud work for me but it was too
| much. I'll pay the enshittified Dropbox premium soon.
|
| Some bugs I encountered in a few hours of testing and trying to
| make it work.
|
| The Mac auto-update installs an incompatible version to my OS;
| the website offers only the new incompatible and an old version
| that also doesn't work (OS can not scan the app). The solution
| is to find a suitable version from a hidden FTP, user-
| unfriendly.
|
| Some files had modification timestamps on 1.1.1970 that causes
| obscure sync issues on Mac. Either run some arbitrary database
| scripts to fix this or a simpler solution is to 'touch' all
| affected files.
|
| The Windows Client consistently shows random minus bytes,
| hangs, and freezes.
|
| The Windows Client is stuck in a loop of calculations and
| transmissions. Also a reinstallation is impossible as AppData
| folder isn't deleted during uninstallation.
|
| A successful complete reinstall downloads all the existing
| files individually, creating conflicts with identical(!?) local
| and server files. Why is the file hash not checked before the
| download? It's frustrating and seems poorly designed.
|
| All bugs have open GitHub issues I didn't bother to include.
| Some have open PRs for years. The last bug is open for 5 years
| now.
| eurekin wrote:
| I installed Nextcloud twice and faced early bugs quickly as
| well. I'm certainly not moving my 15tb of client photos to it
| anytime soon
| op00to wrote:
| I always wondered why photographers held on to
| negatives/raw files for so long. How often does the need to
| return years later come up, and can that justify the cost
| of storing all that in a way that's somewhat reliable? I'm
| not saying there aren't valid reasons to do so, and
| throwing the pictures on a few externals drives isn't
| terrible, but to do it "right" seems like it would be super
| expensive!
| bayindirh wrote:
| Because better hardware gets cheaper, and one's technique
| and software improves over time.
|
| I was able to recover a 13 year old photo I took with a
| D70s which was extremely noisy. By using what I learnt
| and state of the art software (which is Darktable), I was
| able to extract a very nice photo out of it.
|
| Also, as your style improves and experience piles up, you
| look to your "bad" photos and say "Aha, there's a nice
| angle here. Let's process this".
|
| You can see some of my "Remastered" photos at [0].
|
| [0]: https://www.flickr.com/photos/zerocoder/albums/72157
| 70242956...
| eurekin wrote:
| I wonder how would you react to the DeepPRIME* from DxO
|
| https://www.dxo.com/fr/technology/deepprime/
|
| I have a license for some older version, if you want to
| throw a .nef at me
| bayindirh wrote:
| That looks pretty nice. I'll try to find some noisy files
| to send to you. What's nice about Darktable is it has a
| feature called "profiled denoise".
|
| Contributors send in calibrated RAW files per camera,
| taken at every ISO setting possible, so Darktable
| denoises your file according to your camera's profile at
| particular ISO. The result is pretty impressive.
|
| I have uploaded that particular image to [0]. Taken in
| 2006 and processed in 2020, after 14 years!
|
| [0]: https://www.flickr.com/photos/zerocoder/53363865806/
| in/datep...
|
| Edit: EXIF says 2005, but it should be 2006.
| eurekin wrote:
| Oh, I'd throw them away in a blink, If I were not lazy:
|
| Almost after every shoot, people come back "remember that
| one photo, where I smiled at sth? I'm very sentimental
| about that, cause it's [some important thing to them]",
| which necessitates the need to hold on to every photo
| taken on the session. So no real deletes here, even if it
| came out technically wrong (blurry, blown out, etc.).
|
| Those requests lessen, but don't die down completely.
| Especially with cyclic events, organizers have this habit
| of a asking for things done exactly year ago.
|
| Some just say: "hey, I remember you taking a photo of me
| then and then" for their dancing portfolio in my case.
|
| Especially for videos, which can be a constant flow of
| editing requests, for supercuts and etc.
|
| Now, if I were really smart, I'd just have some good way
| to archive after two years, and delete after - let's say
| three years. In practice though, there are so many
| unforseen circumstances that a habit of "never delete
| anything" forms really easily.
|
| It's just a lot easier and cheaper to buy another drive
| instead of culling 10k of photos every once in a while,
| especially if external confirmation is involved.
| robertlagrant wrote:
| You could also back up to something like AWS Glacier. The
| cheapest tier (access less than once a year) is
| $1/TB/month. Maybe if you kept thumbnails locally, you
| could push all the data up and only pull it as and when
| you needed it.
| nik736 wrote:
| Have fun paying a fortune if you need to get those files
| again.
| robertlagrant wrote:
| If you need all of them, and can wait 5-12 hours, that
| appears to be free to request and transfer? Or am I
| misreading[0]?
|
| [0] https://aws.amazon.com/s3/glacier/pricing/#Retrieval_
| request... <- under "Bulk"
| nik736 wrote:
| Free retrieval pricing, but not free transfer. Transfer
| is starting at $0.09 per GB :-)
| robertlagrant wrote:
| Aaaah I see : - ) still, if it's only very occasional "do
| you remember that photo?" queries, that shouldn't add up
| to any significant cost. But a full retrieval - yeah.
| Interesting how the price ramps up!
| mkesper wrote:
| This does not include data transfer pricing: https://aws.
| amazon.com/de/s3/glacier/pricing/#Data_transfer_...
| aaronax wrote:
| For "expedited" retrieval it is $0.01 per request plus
| $0.03 per GB. Doesn't seem like a fortune. And there are
| retrieval options for 1/10th the cost.
| nik736 wrote:
| Transfer is starting at $0.09 per GB.
| aaronax wrote:
| The exact same as transfer out of normal S3? Don't get me
| wrong, I am as big of an AWS pessimist as one is likely
| to stumble across.
|
| I guess I could reinterpret your original comment as
| "Have fun paying a fortune if you need to get those files
| [out of AWS] again."
|
| instead of my original interpretation "Have fun paying a
| fortune if you need to get those files [out of Glacier]
| again."
|
| Agree!
| op00to wrote:
| Totally understandable! As a service provider, you want
| to be able to fulfill those requests because it will make
| you their go-to person for life. Pretty cheap compared to
| the benefits you can get.
|
| Despite constantly crowing at researchers in my past life
| that they will lose all their data ... it only happened
| once or twice, and both times was related to theft and
| not drive failure.
|
| I wonder if you could sell a type of "archive protection
| plan" as an add-on to your work. It's like $70 a year to
| store 500GB on Glacier. I am sort of assuming each shoot
| is 500GB? You could guarantee access for those customers
| who want it.
|
| If we're being honest with each other, I would do the
| exact thing you're doing and focus more on my business.
| :)
| jmnicolas wrote:
| Have you tried Immich? I don't have much experience with it
| (installed yesterday evening) but it looks and run great.
| eurekin wrote:
| I spinned it up once and looked really good. Never got to
| thorougly testing for that case. Might take another look
| inox wrote:
| I second immich - used it for some group sharing (non-
| registered users) and worked really smooth. had some
| random upload fails though on the app from iOS.
| bbarnett wrote:
| Just use apace2, its davfs implementation, and davfs
| clients.
|
| Linux has davfs2, android has foldersync.
|
| Apache2 is super streamlined for this, and has done dav
| stuff for at least 16 years.
| eurekin wrote:
| I was thinking of trying out using something low level...
| Maybe that? Does it support lazy selective syncing?
| Updating only ranges of files? Does it handle broken
| connections gracefully and recovers without data loss?
| jmnicolas wrote:
| If Dropbox is all you need you might be satisfied with
| Syncthing. I have used it for a week now, it works well and I
| have the warm fuzzy feeling that nobody is using my data to
| make a few bucks (I'm self hosting it on a home server).
| jchw wrote:
| Not only that, you don't even need to "host" Syncthing.
| Being P2P in nature, it can just run on whatever computers
| you want to sync to, directly.
|
| That's pretty cool.
|
| The only thing I'd really want for Syncthing is some kind
| of simple interface for my desktops (all running SwayWM.)
| There's a GTK app that I use on my Pinephone, but it's a
| little janky. I mainly just want to be able to know that
| I'll get notifications when there's a conflict or error.
| (Dropbox style file emblems in file explorers, showing the
| state, would be nice, too...)
| brnt wrote:
| I use an old phone (with Resilio) as such an always-on
| node.
| danieldk wrote:
| You still need a node somewhere that is always available,
| otherwise your device cannot sync when your other devices
| are offline.
|
| My wife and I had such a setup for years with Resilio
| Sync. But life is busy enough to maintain yet another
| thing, so we are happy to fork over the monthly fee for
| Dropbox Family.
|
| Ideally I'd switch over to some other sync solution,
| because Dropbox is somewhat overpriced. But we've had bad
| experiences with Google Drive and OneDrive for local sync
| in the past.
| jchw wrote:
| Well, you need an always-online node only if you actually
| need it to be syncing all of the time. Not everyone needs
| this; often times it's enough to just sync
| opportunistically. This is mainly necessary for things
| that are mutable and active; for me, I store my Keepass
| XC on a Syncthing shared folder, so this is relevant to
| me. And for that, I use my NAS, although obviously, not
| everyone has a NAS.
|
| But that's the thing. Especially notable compared to
| NextCloud, Syncthing is not like most "self-hosted"
| software. Because a node is a node is a node, and because
| it's relatively lightweight, it literally doesn't matter
| what you use. You can use a Raspberry Pi, an old phone or
| laptop, anything you can connect sufficient disk and a
| network to can be a Syncthing node. And if it catches on
| fire, it doesn't really matter since every node is equal.
| You can just add another node at any time.
|
| So a lot of people think Syncthing is another thing
| you'll have to worry about and maintain, but it's not.
| It's one of the few pieces of software that I expected to
| have to deal with a lot of extra work to use, but then it
| wound up being dramatically easier and more flexible than
| I expected. I worry about robustness when it comes to
| something as complex as cross filesystem syncing, but
| Syncthing has never lost my data. I have backups turned
| on on most nodes for the important folders, but I've
| never consulted them before, because I've never needed
| to.
|
| Surely it _is_ possible to lose data with Syncthing, or
| otherwise create a headache. However, from my point of
| view, it certainly seems to be among the most reliable
| and lowest effort ways to sync stuff across devices. I
| haven 't had to spend almost any time maintaining
| Syncthing, and I don't have to worry about limits. I just
| need one device with a big enough disk, then I can create
| however many shared folders are needed to get the
| granularity I want.
|
| Syncthing also has a pretty cool encryption feature. It
| is considered "beta" still, so I only use it in "trusted"
| scenarios, but it works great.
|
| When I started using Syncthing, I only intended to share
| some document files between my desktop and my laptop. Now
| I use it to sync my Keepass database, files between some
| servers (think seedbox etc.,) multiple different
| documents folders including some for collaborative
| projects, and even a couple of other things. So it really
| wound up over-delivering for me.
|
| I'd strongly recommend people, even people who already
| feel like Resilio Sync wasn't a good fit, to just try to
| set up Syncthing before resigning to Dropbox.
| Comparatively, I think Syncthing is simpler to use and
| more robust than basically any other solution that isn't
| Dropbox.
| oskapt wrote:
| Syncthing is great, and I use it at home. For a robust
| multi-user alternative to Dropbox (or *cloud), I can also
| recommend Seafile. I replaced Dropbox with a self-hosted
| version of Seafile and have never looked back. Also, for a
| fantastic mail server solution with a great webmail client,
| look at Axigen. Their free version is more than enough for
| a personal server, and you can use Amazon SES for outbound
| mail to avoid reputation issues. I host mine at Linode and
| love it. If you have a business need or are larger than the
| limits of the free version, their license costs are quite
| reasonable.
| digging wrote:
| I might have been too stupid to figure it out, but I found
| Syncthing unusable because I couldn't set up a basic
| "backup" style sync. That is, anything I added to my phone
| folder would get synced one-way to my computer... and
| anything I deleted from that folder would also get synced
| one-way to my computer. This forced me to maintain my
| entire photo library on my phone, which of course is
| exactly what I was trying to avoid.
| jackothy wrote:
| Would it work to set the folder type to "Send Only" on
| the phone and to "Receive Only" on the server?
|
| See https://docs.syncthing.net/v1.26.0/users/foldertypes
| digging wrote:
| No, the issue is that send-only sends all modifications,
| including file deletion. I wanted it to only send new
| files, but couldn't find a way to do that.
| seszett wrote:
| https://docs.syncthing.net/advanced/folder-
| ignoredelete.html
|
| It works well enough in a backup system, where the issue
| explained on the page isn't relevant.
| digging wrote:
| Nice, I guess it does work. Annoying that what feels to
| me a basic option is hidden for power users. I don't
| understand what your comment is saying though?
| willis936 wrote:
| I run it on TrueNAS Scale. Yes it is all quite fragile, but I
| managed to get it in a state where it works if I don't touch
| it. It's all backed on a ZFS volume. Barring significant
| hardware failures I will be able to access my data locally. I
| use Storj for mirror remote. Rebuilding would be a bit of a
| pain, but I have reached the E2EE personal cloud ideal. If
| [better than storj] cloud storage services offered BYOPK E2EE
| then I wouldn't need to jump through such hurdles.
| danieldk wrote:
| _I'll pay the enshittified Dropbox premium soon._
|
| I have been using Maestral for Dropbox sync on Mac for years
| now and it works great. The primary downside is that it
| doesn't have block-level sync because it's not supported by
| the API. The flip side is that you don't get the memory-
| hungry Dropbox app that embeds a web engine for some
| unfathomable reason.
|
| I wish that Dropbox would bring back their old client that
| just did sync and not all the crap that I don't need.
| smudgy wrote:
| That's a relief.
|
| We just swapped out our old webmail system (made from twigs,
| mud and spit) for a nice and elegant Roundcube install with
| custom plugins and I was already dreading having to change it.
| phpisthebest wrote:
| 12-18mos before that changes.
|
| no company in the world is going to maintain 2 separate
| software products that compete with each other. They will be
| merged, my prediction is 12 to 18 mos
| collegeburner wrote:
| which sucks bc nextcloud is an ugly, heavyweight beast of a
| suite to run. whereas roundcube i'm happy running it on my
| lightweight el cheapo VPS.
| botanical wrote:
| Nextcloud looks clunky but it certainly isn't heavyweight
| coolliquidcode wrote:
| Isn't it PHP based. I worry about anything written in
| that turd of a language.
| lhoff wrote:
| But so is Roundcube.
|
| OT: please (re)read the HN Guidelines.
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| ale42 wrote:
| I guess you still think about PHP when it was version 3
| or 4... we're at version 8.3 now and it's definitely not
| the same thing. Both for language and performance.
| ohthehugemanate wrote:
| Heavyweight? I run it (with all the collab suite features,
| photo galleries, and ai integrations) on a single RPi4
| along with several other applications. But then I only have
| a handful of users...
| wkat4242 wrote:
| The old product is ok yes. The company is awful, with their
| roundcube next scam though.
| velcrovan wrote:
| The first and only time I had a server hacked was due to a
| RoundCube vulnerability in 2006.
|
| Just a month ago there was news of a RoundCube XSS zero-day
| that was widely exploited (https://cyberpedia.medium.com/state-
| sponsored-cyberattacks-l...).
|
| Don't use RoundCube!
| tuwtuwtuwtuw wrote:
| Can you recommend a webmail client which hasn't had 2
| vulnerabilities in the last 15 years?
| velcrovan wrote:
| I can recommend not to host your own webmail in general in
| 2023 unless you are a Fortune 50 company.
| stracer wrote:
| By this logic, you should recommend that people don't use
| computers.
|
| All software has vulnerabilities. The trick is to install it
| in a way which mitigates most of the typical ones: use VMs,
| SELINUX/APPARMOR, containers, chroots, user separations, etc.
| velcrovan wrote:
| Email is no longer in the class of "software you install"
| it is in the class of "services you outsource to reputable
| companies who won't fuck it up"
| SahAssar wrote:
| None of what you mentioned protects against XSS which the
| parent mentioned. Things like having a proper CSP might but
| only if the application is built so it does not depend on
| insecure eval/inline and/or you can properly disallow
| fetch/connections to outside sources.
|
| Everything you mentioned is about protecting things the app
| should not have access to. Many vulnerabilities are about
| intent (did the admin user really mean to truncate the db
| they have permission to truncate) or target (did the user
| really mean to export all my emails in an archive to
| h4x0r@yahoo.com).
|
| If you at all store any sensitive data within the
| application either serverside or clientside you need to
| consider the security of the application itself, not just
| the sandboxing/isolation.
| chappi42 wrote:
| Nice to hear. After several (abandoned) attempts and installing
| NC from scratch it seems to me that Nextcloud matures well. I
| like the focus on hub/groupware. Still some details from time to
| time which annoy me (and probably could be improved). But in
| general, Nextcloud is great! And using AIO (all-in-one docker
| image) it's really simple to install and maintain the server. --
| So happy to have a good alternative to the Microsoft365
| offerings!!! I do think Roundcube found a good place.
| preya2k wrote:
| Not sure which "focus on hub/groupware" you're talking about.
| Some groupware features are still horribly buggy and
| understaffed (e.g. the whole mess of co-existing methods of
| sharing files/folders with groups - Share vs. Group Folder vs.
| Collectives/Circles - or the crazy amount of WebDav and CalDav
| bugs that have been existing for many years), while "AI" (or
| some other buzzwordy technology) gets all the focus.
|
| As much as I hat to say it, but feature wise it's not very
| close to being a Microsoft 365 alternative.
| deng wrote:
| Unfortunately, I can only second this. The absolute basic
| functionality, meaning file storage and access through a
| browser, works fine. However, as soon as it comes to
| integration with the various existing clients, things fall
| apart, and it's not even terribly complicated stuff. For
| instance, I used Nextcloud to automatically upload photos
| from my Android mobile, and this has been completely broken
| for over 2 months now, and nothing is happening (see
| https://github.com/nextcloud/android/issues/11974). It's
| pretty clear they simply do not have enough staff to maintain
| all of the clients, and I'm just rsyncing my stuff now...
|
| Don't get me wrong, I'm thankful for Nextcloud and hope they
| can survive, but one needs to manage expectations when using
| it...
| vedranm wrote:
| I had the requirement for the same basic functionality and
| switched to Syncthing several years ago. Haven't looked
| back: works all the time, every time, and it is much easier
| to maintain.
| raybb wrote:
| I use syncthing and nextcloud. Syncthing just as an easy
| way to drop things between phone and computer. The ~$5/mo
| Hetzner nextcloud instance for my Zotero backup,
| occasionally sharing/soliciting files from friends, and a
| few not so important backups (that I've been meaning to
| mirror to b2).
|
| It's basically fine but I can imagine the more advanced
| features not working so well. It has been on my list for
| years to add recurring task support to nextcloud tasks
| but it's a pretty big effort since I'm quite unfamiliar
| with the stack and there is a decent refactoring needed
| before the feature can be added.
|
| https://github.com/nextcloud/tasks/issues/34
| preya2k wrote:
| Agree. The "reality distortion field" around Nextcloud fans
| is second to none. I hear it being touted as a replacement
| for Dropbox, Google Drive, Google Docs, OneDrive, Office
| 365, etc. Unfortunately it's none of those.
| jmnicolas wrote:
| May I suggest Immich for your photos? I don't have enough
| experience with it to guarantee it's bug free, but my first
| impressions are very positive (and I'm not afraid to say
| that most open source software I try is severely lacking).
| RealStickman_ wrote:
| I can absolutely recommend FolderSync. It's not open
| source, but absolutely solid for automatic and scheduled
| uploads of various files.
| chappi42 wrote:
| If I only would need file sync I'd use Syncthing. But with
| calendars, adresses, chat, mail, decks, etc. I don't know
| another solution. Some compromises are necessary: I didn't
| find e.g. a good note taking app with sharing among
| members. Chat posts cannot be edited.
|
| So far our AIO based installation worked well enough (with
| PC, Mac and Android clients). But we do not have a lot of
| files (yet).
|
| After bad experience with incompetent MS support stuff
| regarding our (not cheap!) Office retail licenses I also
| had to manage expectations there: a lot of time wasted,
| they only wanted to move us to the 365 subscription model,
| could not help. Somehow I'm not convinced that with MS365
| we would have a simple well-arranged flexible system (but
| just be bound forever).
| evandrofisico wrote:
| Implemented and integrated both at work six years ago, it is a
| nice combination.
| erinnh wrote:
| Good to hear.
|
| More support for Roundcube, while Nextcloud gets a better Email
| client than the current one.
| joeig wrote:
| I've been a very happy Roundcube user for a decade without a
| single problem. Also worth mentioning, their CLI update script
| just works without a hitch.
|
| I'd like to see Nextcloud adopt Roundcube's commitment to
| reliable software. I've tried migrating my calendars, reminders
| and contacts several times, but it's never worked reliably. There
| were often subtle problems such as missing calendar entries that
| simply disappeared without a trace.
| milliams wrote:
| It's just a shame that the $100k that was raised for "RoundCube
| Next" (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/roundcube-next--2) back
| in 2015 produced exactly nothing (https://github.com/roundcube-
| next) with no explanation.
| robertlagrant wrote:
| What a shame! There's some info on the Wikipedia page[0].
|
| [0]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundcube#Project_.22Roundcube...
| sweetjuly wrote:
| The GitHub issue talking about this [1] is such a mess too.
| Maintainers closing the question with a vague non-answer,
| deleting comments left and right, etc. Sounds like someone
| stole the money and everyone is either complicit or too
| embarrassed to admit that it happened.
|
| [1] https://github.com/roundcube/roundcubemail/issues/6030
| mxuribe wrote:
| This is wonderful news! Nextcloud gets an additional product
| offering for an important aspect (email!), and RoundCube gets
| resources in the way of dev. staff (and possibly other benefits
| from NextCloud funding)...and ALL of it is open source, self-
| hostable, and good tech.! Kudos to RoundCube and NextCloud folks!
| creshal wrote:
| Given Nextcloud's track record that doesn't bode well for
| Roundcube's future. We tried to make Nextcloud work for us for
| years, but it's just too terribly clunky, unstable, bug-ridden,
| and customer hostile. I hope none of that rubs off on roundcube.
| manmal wrote:
| Do you have recommendations for a self hosted webDAV server
| that could act as a Dropbox / GDrive replacement? I'm using
| Nextcloud only for that use case because I haven't found
| anything that seemed as stable.
| xobs wrote:
| I've had very good luck with Seafile
| gibsonf1 wrote:
| https://graphmetrix.com/trinpod
| pseudostem wrote:
| I echo GPs thoughts. I use a VPS with syncthing. While that
| is also clunky, it works for my usecase while keeping
| multiple redundant copies across devices.
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| Depends on what you mean by redundant though, right?
| Syncthing is generally not gonna protect you from an
| accidental `rm -r *`, unless perhaps you set yourself up
| with a permanent head server where everything is versioned
| but on which files are never edited. (I'll be happy to be
| wrong)
| creshal wrote:
| There's solid SFTP clients for every OS (even Android!) and
| all it requires on the server is the already installed
| OpenSSH, so I never really saw the need to look into webDAV.
| folmar wrote:
| For user-facing oses yes, but webdav is available on lot
| "embedded" devices like Smart Whiteboard, and for many oses
| is built in (even Windows 98), so it's easier to deploy
| geraldhh wrote:
| all sorts of network security appliances in foreign
| networks make reliance on ssh a futile endeavor. webdav
| works over standard ports with standard tooling (web
| browser)
| crossroadsguy wrote:
| I am not much into self hosting other than a barebone setup
| that takes care of my linux ISOs on a VPS, but you might want
| to check Syncthing. Put it on a server and then connect it
| from other places. This software is a marvel at simplicity
| (except a bit of settings/config - I mean for heaven's sake
| that can definitely be improved :P; but once done it's rock
| solid - it just works and not like Apple where we pretend it
| just works, it really just works) and robustness. Also I
| never face speed problem or any hiccups pretty much. It puts
| Dropbox and GDrive etc to shame combined.
|
| If I could find time to be better at self hosting and will be
| able to take care of a server's upkeep, security/OS/package
| patches/updates et cetera then if I have to setup two first
| tools on this it would be Syncthing and RClone.
|
| On the other hand for my current needs I use filen.io (it's
| on BF sale right now). It's not the best but works fine for
| my use - like a remote hard disk acting like backup (its
| "local backup" sync mode).
| meonkeys wrote:
| What does Nextcloud do poorly that might be better/easier
| with an alternative?
| mekster wrote:
| Not sure if it's based on WebDAV but Seafile is probably one
| of the only few that works for self hosted file synchronizer.
| Zetobal wrote:
| I hate nextcloud with a passion and I just hope they can govern a
| project like roundcube... used it for 20 years even through the
| whole roundcube next debacle. That said roundcube itself is not
| an oss project with a clean track record.
|
| Nextcloud is the OSS equivalent of IBM and ticking boxes so it's
| easy for management to pull the trigger but every feature is just
| a half-assed buggy implementation. Gobbling up OSS funds and
| fucking up government projects that try to rely on it. It's a
| disgrace.
| MarcusE1W wrote:
| Hmm, I am using it for years and can't quite relate to your
| passionate hate.
|
| With regards to box ticking, that is probably something you
| need to do if you want to compete with Gsuite and O365. Both
| have sales teams which are influencing some decision makers in
| organisations wherever they can. If you give these people the
| opportunity to say 'Ha, we can't use Nextcloud because it does
| not support XYZ' then they will. You never get fired because
| you bought IBM. It is very difficult to get through this
| barrier. Sometimes you need to put a bit of lipstick on your
| pig, because others did it as well.
|
| Plus, XYZ might be implemented half-aresed in Gsuite or O365 as
| well.
| Zetobal wrote:
| You wrote it yourself "might be implemented half-arsed in
| Gsuite or O365". You can be sure it's half-arsed with
| nextcloud. For smaller deployments it might be fine but it
| starts to get bogged down with more than 1000 users.
| neurostimulant wrote:
| NextCloud is just your typical PHP & MySQL webapp. The
| scaling limit is how many connections your database server
| can handles and how much iops your disk provides.
| Zetobal wrote:
| They are advertising a enterprise ready solution and it's
| clearly not. No matter how much hardware you throw at it.
| jospoortvliet wrote:
| I beg to differ and so would our over 1000 customers,
| none of them with less than 100 seats (we don't sell
| below that). Most have 1000 users or more.
|
| The largest has several tens of millions of users and
| they are using Global Scale. One customer runs nearly 4
| million users on a single cluster.
|
| Nextcloud is a complicated beast, and scaling to tens of
| thousands of users isn't trivial, but then that is what
| Nextcloud Enterprise is for. So if you need a large scale
| installation, no problem - contact our team and we get
| you up and running.
| arcza wrote:
| "tens of millions"? you must specify what. hosting mail
| with 20GiB average mailboxes? Or a publicly accessible
| file share with a million monthly hits? Big difference. I
| would not productionise Nextcloud for a large
| organisation.
|
| Finally there are very few orgs worldwide even with a few
| hundred k employees and any firm would get huge Microsoft
| discounts at that scale for products like SharePoint (on
| prem), Exchange (on prem) and Office Server (on prem
| also)... and oodles of support over a very mature product
| which Nextcloud is simply not.
| mekster wrote:
| True but it does have the features that look attractive.
|
| Too bad "beta quality everywhere" attitude never gets fixed.
| Basic stuff like weird upload indicator on the web, desktop app
| freezing when synching some 10GB or so and I don't even want to
| touch most of the third party plugins which are at alpha
| quality.
|
| It's like a selfish girl that you need to treat carefully or it
| starts crying real fast.
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| Comments here seem to suggest that Nextcloud isn't worth it.
| Later today I'm supposed to talk with some folks at IT looking
| for an in-house file-sharing/collaboration tool that
| Dropbox/GoogleDrive is (or was, because after GoogleDrive price
| hikes our institution ditched them). I was going to suggest
| Nextcloud as a possible option to investigate...
| muixoozie wrote:
| I'm not sure all your requirements, but check out syncthing.
| ar0 wrote:
| I don't know... the overall tone seems to be a bit too negative
| for me here.
|
| I have used Nextcloud at home for years now without issues and
| we also used it at a large university where it worked just fine
| (from a user perspective; I don't know if it gave the
| administrators nightmares). I do agree that they should invest
| more time in polish and stability and less in swanky new
| features that many won't need, but that would not lead me to
| discourage anyone from using (or at least trying) Nextcloud.
| this_user wrote:
| NC is trying to do a lot, but it's not doing anything
| particularly well. It feels like their development resources
| are spread too thin to really polish any of the features. If
| you just need file sharing, there are some projects that focus
| on that that tend to work pretty well. I have also tried
| running NC with OnlyOffice, but that seems to break every two
| weeks. And even if it works, Google's tools are just so much
| better. I would even choose O365 over this.
| ipcress_file wrote:
| If you're going to do this, look for a proven stable Nextcloud
| solution. I followed one of the many guides on the web a couple
| of years ago to install Nextcloud on Debian, which worked, but
| the first major update broke it. I couldn't fix it because I
| didn't know why it broke. You wouldn't want to be in that
| situation with employees waiting for service to be restored.
|
| Since then, I've been running an always-on Syncthing instance
| as a "cloud hub" and that's been great, though I doubt it would
| scale well.
| no_wizard wrote:
| you might want to check out ownCloud[0] if you're purely
| interested in file sharing. Its all open source and you can run
| your own server.
|
| I can't attest to how well it runs currently, as I haven't used
| it for a few years, but I used it a couple years ago and it was
| pretty solid
|
| [0]: https://owncloud.com/
| clawoo wrote:
| Yeah, you need to run away from Nextcloud as far and as fast as
| possible.
|
| I made the mistake of recommending it and setting it up for my
| 10 person team earlier this year and it has only been constant
| headaches.
|
| Reporting bugs to GitHub is especially frustrating because the
| devs will just discard them, regardless of how well documented
| and reproducible they are. There was a mess with its Postgres
| connection pool where it would quickly run out of available
| slots if you used Collabora, the Google Docs clone, the devs
| rejected the bug reports without a second thought although
| there were many users who reported the problem.
|
| This last hour I've been fighting it trying to reset a user's
| password, it says that it "cannot decrypt the recovery key".
|
| I check whether the recovery key is enabled for that user, it
| says "Recovery key is not enabled".
|
| I check whether encryption is enabled, it reports it as
| "false".
|
| It's by far the flakiest piece of software I've used in 2023.
| deng wrote:
| If you are willing to spend some money, rather look at OwnCloud
| hosting or maybe self-hosting with professional support. While
| NextCloud just added feature after feature and IMHO bit off
| more than they could chew, OwnCloud started to rewrite things
| in Go and improved speed and stability. Also, I hear their
| support is better.
| miedpo wrote:
| I'm using Nexcloud currently, but an alternative for you to
| check out for you might be Pydio.
|
| It has a lot of the same features, and generally seemed a
| little more stable. However, it was a little more painful to
| configure, and has a few unique terminologies you'll have to
| get used to. Also it's UI does load faster than Nextcloud, but
| once loaded, it is a little less snappy.
|
| For the user downloaded client, I found that it works, but is a
| little less convenient than Nextcloud (no Automatic pinning of
| the folder, no partial downloads to save space)
| RealStickman_ wrote:
| I guess it's fine if you want a widely integrated solution that
| can do a lot of different things. I'm using it only for myself,
| so definitely not representative of using it in a company but
| maybe my experience helps.
|
| The just working part, at least for me, are the calendar and
| contact plugins. Never had any issues with those. File sync
| with the desktop client works mostly fine on Linux where I use
| it most of the time. However, I've run into issues with it on
| Windows. Using the automatic bandwidth limit for example might
| cause Explorer to freeze. [1] Also forget about the automatic
| upload feature in the Android client, I switched to FolderSync
| for a reliable experience.
|
| I've managed to get OnlyOffice working, Collabora Office
| previously broke for some reason. However latest upgrade also
| broke OnlyOffice. The solution for this is to put the secret
| and authorization headers into config.php in addition to the
| OnlyOffice plugin settings. [2] No idea why, but that is a
| thing.
|
| My Nextcloud runs as a normal PHP application and I haven't had
| any issues with upgrading yet. Going from, I think, version 23
| on Debian 11 to 27.1 now on a different machine running Debian
| 12 since I started using it.
|
| Maybe I should find something more focused on file syncing, but
| the all-in-one approach of Nextcloud and its various plugins
| makes trying some new services very easy.
|
| [1] https://github.com/nextcloud/desktop/issues/5031
|
| [2] https://github.com/ONLYOFFICE/onlyoffice-
| nextcloud/issues/60...
| marcosdumay wrote:
| Nah, nextcloud is a reasonable enterprise file-
| sharing/collaboration tool.
|
| What you are seeing here is a lot of people trying to use it as
| a file synchronization tool, and discovering that it's bloated
| beyond reason (because well, it's a file-sharing/collaboration
| tool) and the file sync functionality isn't even as good as
| you'll get from specialized tools.
|
| The root problem is that nextcloud started as a file sync tool,
| and moved into other niche, and never bothered to communicate
| it.
| rockooooo wrote:
| There is no FOSS file sharing solution that gets close to being
| as usable, especially for sharing, as dropbox/drive.
| albert180 wrote:
| Google Drive is so good that it even loses 6 Months of Data
| without noticing it, unless a customer writes them in the
| forum
| jospoortvliet wrote:
| It'll depend on your requirements. Keep in mind that Nextcloud
| is the largest on-prem collab platform out there, so more users
| means more complaints... It is used in huge enterprise and
| government installations so it can definitely work, but it
| needs a decent setup. For a small company, use the Nextcloud
| AIO container I would say. For a big one, get Nextcloud
| Enterprise (starts at 100 seats) to make sure you get any
| issues addressed quickly.
| mekster wrote:
| I have only been using NextCloud personally with a single
| user but every instance I set up, there are basic problems
| like apps freezing, (and GH issue seems to have stalled some
| 6 months or so ago) and non polished interface really puts me
| off but since there aren't a better alternative, I use it.
|
| Seafile is a close call if it gets more attention to remove
| rough edges and a bit more feature but interface looks more
| polished.
| jordemort wrote:
| I really want to like Nextcloud. I had it all set up perfectly
| earlier this year with their "AIO" setup. Then some upgrade came
| along and completely destroyed my install, couldn't get the
| containers to start after that, couldn't figure out how to debug
| it; seemed like the only way to get it back on its feet was to
| wipe and start over. I wiped; I haven't started over yet.
| spinningD20 wrote:
| I had this happen to me as well, though I remember that it was
| either a docker or snap/flatpak/etc version of it. Got things
| working but lost a few months of data, likely something I
| foolishly did while trying to make things work. Stopped using
| it and went with Seafile for a while - grew frustrated with
| that and stopped syncing files between computers altogether.
|
| Later on, when I set up an old dell xeon workstation as a home
| server (using proxmox), I used the turnkey image of nextcloud,
| and have (knock on wood) not had any issues at all.
|
| Anyway - I wanted to ensure it was fully virtualized this next
| time if/when this happens again. I have it backing up the base
| vm once a week (I have the file storage separate/outside of the
| vm). So... hopefully this doesn't happen again to the degree
| that it did.
| blkhawk wrote:
| I have been upgrading my then owncloud setup now nextcloud
| setup for the last 10 years or so almost without issue - most
| issues I had where back when it was still owncloud. I think I
| did a wipe back then once. Nowadays even if something goes
| wrong I know what i can do. For instance i upgraded PHP too
| soon once and had to manually patch it.
|
| Anecdotal evidence tho. Results vary. I like nextcloud because
| worst case all a wipe would cost me is a re-upload of my local
| folders over a couple of hours.
| jospoortvliet wrote:
| Same here, but it's a big and complicated beast. I never lost
| data but then with hundreds of thousands of servers out
| there, somebody is bound to. Even if it's just due to bloody
| cosmic rays ;-)
| haroldp wrote:
| > couldn't get the containers to start after that, couldn't
| figure out how to debug it
|
| Docker monoculture and it's consequences.
| INTPenis wrote:
| I sure hope there are no changes to standalone roundcube, because
| I'm just starting to think nextcloud is too heavy.
|
| I see people on selfhosting forums asking for alternatives.
|
| It would be sad if they swallowed roundcube, which I remember as
| a decent web email client.
| charles_f wrote:
| Rainloop is a good alternative IMO
| mbirth wrote:
| I hear SnappyMail is a fork of Rainloop with lots of
| improvements.
| charles_f wrote:
| Oh thanks! OpenPGP support in Rainloop is really bad, I
| ended up adding Mailvelope as a plugin. I'd gladly give it
| a shot even if just for that.
| gpvos wrote:
| What I would like to have is a small Nextcloud installation (max.
| 200MB, preferably even smaller) that I can host on a ultra-cheap
| tiny server. I just need file sync, calendar and contacts. The
| total size of the synced files isn't much either.
|
| Nextcloud used to be small enough for this, but they kept adding
| things, bundling word processors and other stuff I don't need,
| meanwhile making the contacts and calendar optional. I have had
| to move to a larger server only for this reason, to keep
| Nextcloud at a supported version.
|
| Does Syncthing have contacts and calendar syncing? Any others? I
| like having a central server.
| dchest wrote:
| For calendars and contacts you can try Radicale if you don't
| need web access: https://radicale.org/v3.html
| charles_f wrote:
| you can drop infCloud on top of any caldav/cardav to get a
| UI. I've been using it with radical for a while.
| MoSattler wrote:
| A few years back I used to use SyncThing + DecSync for that
| purpose, and it worked quite well. Looks like it hasn't been
| updated in a while though.
|
| https://github.com/39aldo39/DecSync
| willyt wrote:
| https://nextcloudpi.com might do it for you. I've been running
| it on raspberry pi 4 with a Samsung 1tb usb3 ssd for a year or
| two with no problems that weren't solved by turning it off and
| on again...yet.
| chappi42 wrote:
| What is an ultra-cheap tiny server? Maybe a CX21 (6.37 EUR/mth)
| at https://www.hetzner.com/de/cloud would fit. There are Docker
| images and you only need to install the NextCloud AIO. Super
| simple. Upgrade is also simple (we only did it once and it went
| through perfectly).
|
| Syncthing is nice but file-sync-only.
| Volundr wrote:
| I'd skip the server! Hetzners Storage Share gives you
| NextCloud with admin privileges:
| https://www.hetzner.com/storage/storage-share
|
| This is what I'm using these days.
| gpvos wrote:
| A local provider that I like. Not actually ultra-cheap. You
| only have 500MB of storage with the smallest hosting package.
| mytdi wrote:
| For some of the reasons you give, I prefer Owncloud over
| Nextcloud. Owncloud is less bloated. I recently set up Joplin
| notes to sync with Owncloud using WebDAV following instructions
| on Owncloud's blog [0], it was easy and works well. I haven't
| set up contacts and calendars yet, but would like to,
| eventually. It looks like it can be done with CardDAV and
| CalDAV [1]. [0]: https://owncloud.com/news/how-to-sync-notes-
| with-owncloud-an... [1]: https://blog.evomailserver.com/how-to-
| sync-owncloud-10-conta...
| toxican wrote:
| I'm fairly certain that you can disable the word processor, as
| well as a lot of the other "core" features. Or at least I'm
| seeing a whole lot of "disable" buttons when I look at the list
| of active apps for my Nextcloud install.
| gpvos wrote:
| Yes, but they are still part of the package. If you have only
| 500MB you easily run out of disk space for both the installer
| and the actual installation. And I think they remain on your
| disk, ready to enable. There is no easy way to remove them
| completely.
| jospoortvliet wrote:
| In the AIO you have to explicitly choose to install them,
| in the bare metal setup they are not installed unless you
| choose so when you install for the first time. You're right
| that Nextcloud has gotten bigger, but Collabora is in no
| way a default part that you can't uninstall...
| bityard wrote:
| I've been running Nextcloud for family collaboration purposes
| since before the fork from Owncloud. I've been pretty happy with
| it overall.
|
| My biggest gripe with it is the increasing schizophrenia of the
| UX devs. One thing I _loved_ about Nextcloud was that they paid a
| lot of attention to making it easy to navigate and use. The newer
| UX "enhancements" seem to be all about maximizing (useless)
| whitespace and making every widget as spherical as possible. The
| calendar UI used to be a joy to use, now it's the most
| frustrating calendar I have ever seen.
|
| On the plus side, if you're using the docker image, upgrades are
| a breeze. Just bump the tag on the image, redeploy, and you're
| done. (It did take a _lot_ of effort to migrating my existing
| data to the docker container, though.)
|
| I also use Roundcube as my main email client. I've looked at
| bunches of them, but Roundcube is the closest thing to a web-
| based Thunderbird that I have seen. Unfortunately, this had a UI
| "update" too and now practically nothing can be customized the
| way I prefer. If someone forks Roundcube and brings back the old
| theme, I will switch to it tomorrow.
| TheCapeGreek wrote:
| >On the plus side, if you're using the docker image, upgrades
| are a breeze. Just bump the tag on the image, redeploy, and
| you're done. (It did take a _lot_ of effort to migrating my
| existing data to the docker container, though.)
|
| As much as people rag on Snap, Nextcloud being available on it
| is also super convenient if one doesn't feel like using Docker.
| justsomehnguy wrote:
| > It did take a _lot_ of effort to migrating my existing data
| to the docker container
|
| Or you could just use some external storage. Like SMB or
| something. And then you would learn what updates aren't 'a
| breeze'. And there is no built-in SMB support in the default
| container.
|
| Since I'm running it since OwnCloud days too, I have an opinion
| on it and it's Not. Good.
|
| Desktop client for Windows is miserable and sucks:
|
| a) you have something with a name longer than 30 symbols? You
| know need to guess what the full path of that file in the error
| log
|
| b) this is like 4th year when you have an option to see the
| errors in a separate window, except it's... empty. Not an empty
| error log, it' empty _window_
|
| c) Oh, best part: if the client decided to update it would kill
| your Explorer first (like -9), install the it's shit and
| then... force reboot your machine without any questions
|
| d) when you click on the client icon in the notification area
| it shows multiple icons what you would thing would do
| something. Except it's just opens the web-interface of the
| instance
|
| For years mobile client couldn't work properly with a self-
| signed certs, which is quite ludicrous for a solution boasted
| as the pinnacle of self-hosting.
|
| UI overall is shit, it's a legacy of early 2010 concepts with
| Googlisation on every not needed aspect. And just outright
| stupid ideas, which 2.5 developers at NextCloud couldn't test,
| like littering EVERY (sorry for caps) folder you navigate
| through the web interface with README.md. And shitting bricks
| on non case sensitive mounts, because yes, it's hard.
|
| Server side is always running to pump out new versions, while
| abandoning and deprecating addons. Oh, addon you are using is
| now deprecated, besides being made a mere year ago? Tough luck.
| Stay on the supported NC version. Except it's not supported
| anymore because it's a year old now version.
|
| Oh, since 2016 it's no longer a file syncing solution, it's
| _collaboration software_ or even _groupware_. That means there
| are now office suite, chat, contact lists and whatever else,
| including an email client. This also explains why did NC
| 'bought' RC. Except all those parts are not integrated good.
|
| And finally it's a PHP app with a tons of legacy code. As soon
| as something breaks you are drowning in multiple screen heights
| of errors of PHP code. And consequently all performance
| troubles are solved by throwing RAM and CPU at the instance.
|
| /rant
| goodpoint wrote:
| > And finally it's a PHP app with a tons of legacy code
|
| Finally? That's a security nightmare right there.
| gjsman-1000 wrote:
| I think legacy code in any language is a security
| nightmare; not just PHP. Imagine a half-a-decade-old NodeJS
| project...
| Arelius wrote:
| 5 years old? Really?
|
| Or do you just mean because of the crazy dependencies in
| a typical node project?
| zikduruqe wrote:
| > if you're using the docker image, upgrades are a breeze. Just
| bump the tag on the image, redeploy, and you're done.
|
| Or you could just run Watchtower beside it and it will
| automatically update your docker containers.
| https://github.com/containrrr/watchtower If you are OK with
| automated updates.
| cm-t wrote:
| Or you could just use the snap, and you don't need to do
| anything :)
| dingnuts wrote:
| Pending update of snap
|
| Close the app to avoid disruptions
| bityard wrote:
| This is software that I rely on for my day-to-day tasks. I've
| had upgrades break things SO MANY times, that I never do an
| upgrade of "production" without specifically setting aside at
| least 30 to 60 minutes of time to deal with any potential
| fallout.
|
| If we were talking about a video game, or some kind of
| testing/QA environment, then sure, automatic unattended
| upgrades would be fine.
| ekianjo wrote:
| > upgrades are a breeze
|
| upgrades are a breeze even without docker... the self updating
| function of nextcloud works very well.
| zeagle wrote:
| Yeah I run it baremetal. No issues at all.
| josteink wrote:
| I've had it bork my install so many times that in the end I
| spent more time recovering nextcloud than actually using
| it.
|
| My instance is dead now, after I failed to recover it the
| last time and couldn't be bothered anymore.
|
| YMMV, but I'm out.
| privong wrote:
| > I've had it bork my install so many times that in the
| end I spent more time recovering nextcloud than actually
| using it.
|
| I had issues with upgrading a few times on a modest VPS,
| when trying to upgrade via the web interface. I've since
| switched to upgrading via ssh by running the
| `updater.phar` script[0] and haven't experienced an issue
| upgrading since.
|
| I of course don't know if this would've avoided the
| issues you experienced, @josteink, but I wanted to
| mention it in case others have a similar problem to what
| I had.
|
| [0] https://docs.nextcloud.com/server/latest/admin_manual
| /mainte...
| zeagle wrote:
| That sucks. I'd be frustrated too. For me it just hosts
| calendar and contacts for a few users and my files are in
| seafile so perhaps the small footprint helps. In what way
| did it break, I want to keep an eye out for this.
| josteink wrote:
| It was a custom-built LXC container I built on an Alpine
| Linux base.
|
| I used the Alpine packages to upgrade it, then afterwards
| I used the Nextcloud admin scripts to migrate the schema,
| apps & plugins.
|
| Biggest clusterfuck I've ever dealt with. Not doing that
| again.
|
| TBF the Alpine-setup probably made everything worse, and
| that's a lesson learned, but I'm just fed up and can't
| bother setting up a new instance now.
| ikidd wrote:
| >self updating function of nextcloud works very well
|
| Then that's a new development. I've been using it since about
| v9 and it was a complete trainwreck that might have had a 25%
| success rate until I gave it up and moved to the docker
| around v17.
| jacomoRodriguez wrote:
| It's even easier with the all-in-one (aio) solution. Upgrades
| via a simple UI, automatic Borg Backups, etc. I run this on
| hetzner cloud with one storagebox for the files and one
| storagebox for the backups. Runs nicely, gets updates, and as
| the storageboxes do automatic snapshots, I have double backups.
| teekert wrote:
| Can you use a UI to upgrade the underlying container? It's
| not with docker-compose?
|
| If so that feels a bit like an anti-pattern, just like the
| WordPress container which updates the WP files inside the
| container itself, the container just contains the webserver,
| php and database.
| t-writescode wrote:
| The AIO solution creates several docker containers that all
| get updated through their assisted update process. In
| general, I've been quite happy with it, myself. I have it
| running on my Unraid machine. The only problem I have
| intermittently is when Unraid seems to rename container
| names in special circumstances. I have to go and recreate
| the aio container. Otherwise, it's been very smooth sailing
| for me; and, the AIO solution definitely runs faster than
| my original single Docker container solution.
| iggldiggl wrote:
| > Unfortunately, this had a UI "update" too and now practically
| nothing can be customized the way I prefer. If someone forks
| Roundcube and brings back the old theme, I will switch to it
| tomorrow.
|
| ?? The old skins (Classic and Larry) are still available as
| plugins via PHP composer, aren't they?
| ikidd wrote:
| Yah, though it's annoying you have to hack them into the UI
| again with composer instead of having a plugin system in the
| app that can just add them.
| iamspoilt wrote:
| I also have Nextcloud running on docker using linuxserver.io
| image and the upgrade process is a breeze. I usually upgrade by
| running watchtower once a month to update my docker images.
| xp84 wrote:
| > I also use round cube
|
| > [ their useless UX designers ruined it ]
|
| Why do you have to wait for someone to fork it? Can't you just
| not update to the bad version? I thought that was a major
| appeal of hosting your own email client like this.
|
| And given the email protocols won't ever change, I would assume
| it'll continue working the same for a decade or more.
|
| (My only guess is a security worry, but this seems like a
| rather niche thing that something this niche would be unlikely
| to be attacked unless I were targeted by some state-level
| actor)
| JoshTriplett wrote:
| A self-hosted personal server very much needs to be kept up
| to date. This isn't a "state-level actor" issue; any
| vulnerabilities in software like this, _especially_ in
| software that someone might not update in a timely fashion,
| will get scanned for _automatically_ and exploited when
| found.
|
| In _theory_ , the portions that are only accessible with
| authentication are less security sensitive if you have only a
| small set of trusted users, but that's still reducing the
| security of your server to the security of your least
| security-aware user.
| xp84 wrote:
| Hmm. I was imagining a personal server. If I were hosting a
| webmail client personally, I wouldn't expose it to inbound
| connections from the Internet at all, preferring to keep
| such a thing inside my LAN and via VPN only.
|
| Clearly I overassumed though, because you're right, when it
| could be that one would have such a thing accessible to a
| small team of people who don't use a VPN.
| nfriedly wrote:
| > docker image, upgrades are a breeze.
|
| Maybe this has been improved, but I remember thinking that and
| then it biting me because updating to the latest image
| (linuxserver/nextcloud) wasn't actually updating nextcloud
| itself, just the environment (php, etc.)
|
| When I realized this, I had to go through several major
| nextcloud upgrades, incrementally going from one major version
| to the next.
|
| Then it bit me again a few months later where nextcloud updated
| their _maximum_ supported php version, and the docker image I
| was on quickly bumped the bundled php version to the new
| maximum, so the older version of nextcloud suddenly refused to
| start - even to run the updater. I ended up finding the max
| version check in nextcloud 's php code and commenting it out,
| after that I was able to run the nextcloud update manually.
|
| After being bit twice, I finally automated the full process so
| that the nextcloud software is updated in addition to the
| environment.
| jax_the_dog wrote:
| Having just dealt with this... can you share that automation?
| nfriedly wrote:
| So, the script I have is just this: sudo
| -u abc php /data/www/nextcloud/updater/updater.phar --no-
| interaction
|
| Although, it looks like I need to add this also:
| occ db:add-missing-indices
|
| And, I thought I had it in my crontab, but now I don't see
| the job there. I haven't touched it in months, and I'm on
| the latest version of nextcloud, so presumably it's still
| working. But I honestly can't remember how I set it up.
| bityard wrote:
| I just use the regular "official" docker hub image, not the
| linuxserver one. Not sure what the differences may be.
|
| The "major versions incremental upgrades" is a fundamental
| nextcloud thing, to do with their database migrations I
| expect. I was way behind and had to do three of them in a row
| when I containerized my Nextcloud instance, but they all
| worked fine, thankfully.
| dzikimarian wrote:
| Don't use linuxserver images. My feeling is they were done by
| someone who doesn't understand docker very well. Frequent use
| of supervisor, lack of logs on stdout, weird automagic config
| approach.
|
| It may feel convenient if someone did homelab without docker,
| but will bite you in the long run.
| jjeaff wrote:
| hmm, are you sure about that? the whole reason I use the
| linuxserver offerings is that they all follow the same
| pattern of not using root privileges in the container and
| also factoring the uid and group id out as compose
| variables so you can match them to other containers if
| needed.
| johnmaguire wrote:
| I think both are true - LinuxServer images are usually
| well maintained, and they all use a common format, so
| once you know how to configure one, it's easy to
| configure the rest.
|
| But they make a lot of decisions that are not "best
| practices" in Docker - such as running multiple processes
| per container, under a supervisor.
|
| IMO, they are great for single-machine home deployments.
| dzikimarian wrote:
| Yes their images are standardized, which helps if you
| want "linuxserver experience" and don't care about actual
| image.
|
| Try to understand what actually happens on container
| startup and you're stuck in three layers of base images
| that they use as framework, with hooks on each layer.
|
| Wanna inherit some image and eg. copy something into
| config dir? Nope. Config dir is overwritten by symlink,
| by script on some layer. Actual config dir is moved
| somewhere to fit their internal convention.
|
| Their framework allows them to quickly add new
| applications and keep them updated. But it's pain to work
| with.
|
| I guess if you're willing to learn it and you're 100%
| sure, you're not going to modify image or configure
| application beyond of what they exposed - you might be
| okay using it. Otherwise just get official image.
| mulmen wrote:
| What happened to modern UX design? In the 90s it was driven by
| hard science and serving users. Now it feels like a competition
| to prevent anyone from accomplishing even the simplest task.
| Why do modern UX designers have such contempt for their users?
| encom wrote:
| >docker image, upgrades are a breeze
|
| I'm running on "bare metal" Digital Ocean VPS (like god
| intended), and I just use the web-based updater and it works
| well. APT on Debian handles everything else.
| jklinger410 wrote:
| Love nextcloud in theory, but it is a tangled and ugly mess of
| a UI. It is slow and they spend time on features that only the
| devs seem to care about.
|
| Problem with free and open source software is that you have to
| follow the passion of the devs, which can sometimes optimize
| out of usefulness.
|
| Because of this, I think this is very bad news for roundcube.
| brazzy wrote:
| >On the plus side, if you're using the docker image, upgrades
| are a breeze.
|
| I've had problems that required fiddly manual interventions
| twice after updating to a new major version.
|
| And what keeps me from using it for anything other than File
| synching is the lack of a functioning integrated backup
| mechanism. There is a plugin, but it's unusable shite (tries to
| keep the entire data in memory, big has been open for years),
| and I really don't want to depend on a self-made combination of
| Filesystem and DB backup.
| throw555chip wrote:
| Meanwhile on Reddit:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/selfhosted/comments/186g3ak/ownclou...
|
| What are the odds, a positive article relating to Nextcloud
| posted on HN the same day a negative article is posted about
| Owncloud on Reddit.
| downrightmike wrote:
| Good job Nextcloud marketing team. Probably just pushed up the
| announcement
| jospoortvliet wrote:
| Ha, I wish. Been working on this for weeks, it's even a
| little annoying oC kind'a pooped on the party by having that
| massive security hole...
| ape4 wrote:
| Roundcube had a recent CVE. If a user just read a mail they would
| get hit, ouch. https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-
| list/vendor_id-8905...
| ale42 wrote:
| If I remember well Outlook (or was it Outlook express?) used to
| do something very similar (speaking of 15 years ago or so),
| except it was infecting your local PC instead of the web
| server.
| AndroTux wrote:
| Speaking of Roundcube: If you're hosting it without apache (as
| in: without htaccess support), make sure the logs directory and
| files aren't exposed publicly. They can contain access tokens and
| even encrypted passwords (encrypted with a default password
| unless manually changed during installation), and follow a known
| file structure, so it's quite common for people to get owned this
| way.
| figmert wrote:
| > ~~If you're hosting it without apache (as in: without
| htaccess support),~~ make sure the logs directory and files
| aren't exposed publicly.
|
| Never expose any logs to strangers for anything anywhere
| AndroTux wrote:
| Sure, that's always sound advice. However, most projects are
| usually designed in a way that their logs are either not
| exposed at all (due to not being in the webroot for example),
| or have measurements in place to avoid exposing them (like
| WordPress for example). Roundcube just puts them there and
| you have to actively think about excluding them from your
| webserver configuration. Plus, they dump _really_ sensitive
| information in there by default. That's why I wanted to
| explicitly point it out in this case.
| crtasm wrote:
| Can you configure Roundcube to store them outside the
| webroot?
| ekianjo wrote:
| why use the phoronix link when the original source has much more
| info? https://nextcloud.com/blog/open-source-email-pioneer-
| roundcu...
| charles_f wrote:
| Since we're talking about email, contacts, calendars and files,
| thought it might be useful to summarize what I tried and landed
| on. Note that I'm only using it for my own personal setup, not
| shared with a company: - SyncThing - current solution for some of
| the filesync I'm doing (mainly personal projects). I have a small
| server at home that works well as an "always on" client that I
| can access. - OwnCloud - used to use it for files, cal and
| contacts. It's much lighter than NextCloud, pretty easy to setup.
| I've had corruption issues with the files, which arguably might
| have been my configuration - and made me leave it behind -
| Radicale + infCloud - Used it for a while for contacts and
| calendar. It's working well, and the API being carddav+caldav,
| you can use anything you want to sync. The main issue I had was
| that you can't sent and invite, which is a hassle. - NextCloud -
| current solution for calendar and contacts. I'm using it mainly
| because my shared hosting is providing an instance with my
| contract, and _they_ handle backups. I don 't like the UI much,
| it's slow and a bit clunky, I mainly use it when I want to invite
| someone. I don't use files. I tried using their mail solution but
| never made it work. I'm using Davx5 to sync on my phone, and the
| carddav/caldav sync on mac. I may be moving at some point. -
| Rainloop - very good alternative to roundcube. My only grief with
| it is that I never figured how to search across folders. -
| Roundcube - pretty good, and lots of plugins you can use to make
| it do what you want. - Also used a simple SSH + SCP client to do
| file sync'ing. I'm just hesitant with that, since someone getting
| access would mean full access to the server.
| jospoortvliet wrote:
| You might like to hear that in the upcoming release we re-wrote
| the front-end of Files, that'll be snappier. Hope it'll work
| well for you!
| awill wrote:
| this isn't good for anyone but Roundcube investors. Roundcube is
| a well-liked product. Nextcloud is a PHP app with all kinds of
| security holes.
| stracer wrote:
| By that logic, it should be good for Nextcloud investors.
| jospoortvliet wrote:
| The good news is that neither has investors...
|
| With regards to security, nothing is perfect but I'm
| absolutely positive that Nextcloud is ahead of the vast
| majority of open source projects. And if you know of a
| security hole, go and collect your USD 10K at HackerOne.
| chappi42 wrote:
| True. I don't know of any other "holistic" project that we
| could have choosen instead of Nextcloud. One very very
| important point is the AIO installation method. So easy and
| no fear to have forgotten something important. -- You saved
| us from Google (no way) and Microsoft365 (a possibility),
| thank you!
| poisonborz wrote:
| Oh no... Roundube was the top selfhosted email client. Nextcloud
| is great, but having everything and the kitchen sink maintained
| within and by it is worrying.
| sylware wrote:
| Do they have a noscript/basic (x)html portal?
| butz wrote:
| It would be nice if Nextcloud would come in small modules, and
| one could effectively run only webmail, and add more features in
| the future on demand. Having everything in one just increases
| attack surface and makes more work managing it all.
| jospoortvliet wrote:
| I have good news for you: https://apps.nextcloud.com
|
| Nextcloud is nothing more than a collection of small apps. You
| can disable even core things like sharing.
| germandiago wrote:
| How does NextCloud compare to Sandstorm? It is the same kind of
| thing? What are the best alternatives to Sandstorm?
| Psychoshy_bc1q wrote:
| nextcloud is great but painfully slow, they should use something
| modern instead of ancient shit like php
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