[HN Gopher] He thought tending bar sounded like fun. Then the en...
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He thought tending bar sounded like fun. Then the entire kitchen
staff quit
Author : janandonly
Score : 68 points
Date : 2023-11-28 20:20 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (jasonstanford.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (jasonstanford.substack.com)
| genocidicbunny wrote:
| I don't like the particular focus he puts on customers not
| tipping well. He mentioned feeling like he's being nickel and
| dimed to access his tips, but that's precisely the same feeling
| we customers have now about tipping. I can understand why
| customers don't leave a big tip at a movie theater too - the
| ticket for the movie already paid for access to the theater, and
| the food prices inside are also highly marked up as is. Asking
| for tips on top of that is exhausting and annoying for the
| customers.
|
| He should have perhaps spent more time on the topic of corporate
| profits.
| doublescoop wrote:
| This is a theater that has waitstaff that take orders and bring
| food and drinks to your seat as you watch the show.
|
| Don't want to tip, even though it's baked into the wage
| calculation? That's fine. The author is just pointing out that
| market forces means that folks aren't going to stay in those
| jobs.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| > even though it's baked into the wage calculation?
|
| Then it should be next to the price on the menu:
|
| $x + minimum $y tip.
| Erratic6576 wrote:
| Shouldn't they have to pay taxes if they printed it like
| that?
| mynameishere wrote:
| You can't avoid taxes by not printing something.
| woodruffw wrote:
| I don't believe retail sales tax applies to tips in most
| (any?) states.
| demosthanos wrote:
| In which case, the movie theater may have to switch their
| wage calculations to actually pay these people for the work
| they're doing. The up-front price for tickets might need to
| increase, but that's preferable to the weird layers of hidden
| fees in the current system.
|
| Using tips as a substitute for paying a living wage needs to
| be eliminated everywhere, but I especially don't blame people
| for not realizing that a _movie theater_ of all places is
| playing that game.
| modzu wrote:
| in canada wages have grown but tips have just grown too, so
| there is seemingly a stronger cultural connection and its
| not simply fiscal. even if everyone waiting tables was paid
| a 100k salary, they can't just "put away" the tip jars. im
| not sure how the insanity stops, maybe inflation will stop
| it
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| Paying tips to a bar tender or waiter isn't some sort of
| social anomaly. It's customary. Whether that custom is
| wrong or not can be debated, but while it's customary, it's
| reasonable for people to expect customers to follow the
| custom. Going to a restaurant and tipping $2 is the sort of
| stuff that gets your food spit in and is reserved only for
| the absolute worst service - it's worse than tipping
| nothing. That's the custom, wrong or not. Trying to change
| a societal custom by screwing over the worker is wrong,
| it's just punishing the person who can least afford your
| social stand against how the business pays its workers.
| tomrod wrote:
| Does the same logic apply regarding which products are
| purchased or boycotted for a societal improvement?
|
| As a consumer, I make specific choices. If I am marketed
| a price, that should be inclusive. The change starts with
| my choices, since managers clearly are against setting
| high enough wages.
| notahacker wrote:
| "Customary" works both ways. If it's "customary", then we
| should probably also accept that the custom doesn't
| involve tipping as much as the article author thinks
| bartenders deserve if people generally don't tip as much
| as the article author thinks bartenders deserve.
|
| And a former state labor official of all people should be
| blaming the employers for not paying a proper wage (and
| proposing regulation to solve that) rather than the
| customers for not making uncustomarily large tips to make
| up for them.
|
| (Also, in most of the world it isn't customary to tip
| bartenders)
| droopyEyelids wrote:
| This is why I advocate getting the waiter's
| venmo/squarecash and tipping them electronically.
|
| This attacks the custom of tipping directly: It prevents
| the management from being able to use tips in their scheme
| to pay workers less, and absolves the customer of the
| requirement to hurt the worker if they want to fight
| against tipping culture.
| CryptoBanker wrote:
| Except tips are generally pooled and shared with the
| busboys and the kitchen staff.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > I advocate getting the waiter's venmo/squarecash
|
| I find the assumption that everyone uses such apps
| interesting. For my part, I just tip with cash. No need
| to bring a third party into any of this.
| lokar wrote:
| You say upfront pricing would be preferable but consumers
| show over and over they pick based on the advertised price.
| This is true in dining, flights, hotels etc.
| wharvle wrote:
| This seems more like an argument for _mandating_ up-front
| pricing, than against up-front pricing. That way nobody
| can "defect" and gain business by obscuring prices.
| beepbooptheory wrote:
| Sure, but until such things transpire we have an ethical
| obligation to tip and tip well, right? Like, if you admit
| there is a problem, it seems pretty bad to just focus on
| the root causes without addressing immediate needs.
|
| If you are about to run someone over in your car, you dont
| just say "well, the speed limit shouldn't be this high
| anyway.."
| JohnFen wrote:
| > but until such things transpire we have an ethical
| obligation to tip and tip well, right?
|
| I don't think so, no. I don't think there is any
| _ethical_ obligation to tip at all, and there never has
| been.
|
| I am under no ethical obligation to be abused by
| companies using their employees as human shields.
| fullspectrumdev wrote:
| To put it simply: the wage calculation is between the company
| and the employee, not the customer and the employee.
|
| The company socialising their wages out to their customers
| via tips is fucking absurd.
| huytersd wrote:
| Meh I hate tipping culture as much as the next person but
| you really can't run, for instance a dive bar, and pay the
| bartender $15 an hour. The foot traffic doesn't bring in
| nearly enough most of the time. The end result would just
| be far fewer food and drink places which I wouldn't like.
| changoplatanero wrote:
| That's the whole point though. If the types of
| restaurants that you like can't make enough money to
| offer jobs that workers would accept then those
| restaurants shouldn't exist. They can be replaced with
| more profitable businesses that more people will enjoy.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| That begs the question about what to do when the workers
| will accept lower wage, and there is not a more
| profitable business waiting to replace it.
|
| I dont know so many people make those assumptions. If
| there is a more profitable buisness, why isnt it there
| already?
| contravariant wrote:
| If they are offered more than enough money to be willing
| to stay and there's not a more profitable business
| waiting to replace it, then what exactly is the problem?
| thefaux wrote:
| There is a relatively simple solution to this problem in
| many cases: higher prices and buybacks.
| droopyEyelids wrote:
| I'm not following. If the bartender is making enough not
| to quit, the money is there.
|
| The accounting sleight of hand where they seem to pay
| less for the food and drink but actually don't because
| they must add a tip doesn't change how much income is
| going into the establishment.
| fullspectrumdev wrote:
| Bar workers in my country get about 13$ per hour. And get
| to keep whatever tips.
|
| We also have no shortage of bars, tipping is entirely
| optional and often viewed as an unwelcome American
| import.
| tomrod wrote:
| Dive bars are like carnivals, then, and can only exist if
| they extract consumer surplus.
|
| I reckon there is a reason carnivals no longer thrive
| with the advent of public parks. Perhaps similar
| capitalistic creative destruction would occur for dive
| bars if the incentives were changed.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| I dont think that logic really follows. The cost to the
| consumer foot traffic is the same if it is tip or wage.
|
| If customers are willing to pay the price + tip to have a
| equivalent $15/hr salary, they should be willing to do so
| with just the price, e.g. $5 beers vs $4 beers +$1 tip.
|
| Im sure there are some cultural issues around changing
| the norm in the US, but it works out mathematically, and
| there is evidence from all around the world where tipping
| is not the norm.
| ncallaway wrote:
| If they can't bring in enough foot-traffic that they can
| pay a bartender $15 an hour, then how is tipping going to
| make up the difference? There's also not enough foot
| traffic to make that work
| huytersd wrote:
| Don't deign to even remotely justify this tipping nonsense.
| People should know upfront how much they need to pay with no
| guilt tripping funny business. It also irks me to no end how
| entitled someone bringing your food out to you can be.
| Everyone works, no one else begs and shames people for extra
| money.
| tomrod wrote:
| And that's okay! The wages should be increased, and tipping
| should be put out to pasture.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > The author is just pointing out that market forces means
| that folks aren't going to stay in those jobs.
|
| Not tipping is effectively using those same market forces to
| fix the disaster that tipping has become. If folks aren't
| going to stay in jobs because they don't make enough money
| from tips, then that will pressure employers to pay people
| better.
| ncallaway wrote:
| > The author is just pointing out that market forces means
| that folks aren't going to stay in those jobs.
|
| Fun fact: that's the *business'* problem. As a customer, if
| you don't pay your staff, which means your business has
| shitty service, I'm just not going to come back.
|
| Pay your staff a living fucking wage.
| woodruffw wrote:
| I think it's an understandable focus: as a service worker, his
| most immediate recourse is to the people whose money he's
| handling.
|
| (That doesn't make your point about corporate profits wrong.)
| m463 wrote:
| I think the tipping system is kind of a scam that the employer
| benefits from, then gradually feels entitled to as theirs.
| woodruffw wrote:
| Most people feel entitled to the value of their labor;
| tipping is merely the incidental mechanism that yields that
| value.
|
| Put another way: we don't have any reason to believe that the
| author is abstractly "pro" tipping, only that he (shrewdly,
| like most people) recognizes tipping as a local optima that
| he has no real control over as a service worker.
| changoplatanero wrote:
| The only way to reach the global optimum of no tipping and
| higher wages would be for customers to start to refuse to
| give tips.
| woodruffw wrote:
| Not really. That only punishes the worker, not the
| interested business.
|
| Tipping is pernicious _precisely because_ it doesn 't
| have a real disincentive in a culture that's already
| normalized it. The only real solution is unilateral
| legislation, without waiting for the culture to change.
| Glyptodon wrote:
| I agree you don't tip tickets, but in the US tipping bartenders
| per drink is pretty standard. So is tipping if you get food
| brought out to you by a server... with the caveat that usually
| this goes along with paying _after_ you eat, which maybe isn 't
| the case here and might lead to no tipping.
|
| I do agree a movie theater is an unusual place to complain
| about tips, and even though distributing them via prepaid card
| is complete scumfuckery, it's not the central problem.
| abeppu wrote:
| I get the frustration with tips for things that are low-touch.
| When you go to a place that doesn't have waiter service, or you
| get a prepared item to go and the cashier who you interacted
| with for 5 seconds turns around tablet that asks for a tip, I'm
| annoyed -- but this is a place that lets you order an
| customized cocktail, and have a waiter bring food to your seat.
| If you think the food is overpriced, don't order it.
| dogleash wrote:
| > The combination of working this front-line service industry job
| and my last gig running a state labor department has led to some
| interesting observations.
|
| It's always funny when I'm acutely reminded how disconnected
| well-to-do people can be.
| fishtacos wrote:
| What is funny about it? He's reflecting on the low wages v.
| amount of work involved to make those wages worth his time.
| Every one has their limits, but well-to-do people working low
| paying jobs (in his case, personal and external factors) are a
| good indicator how much discrepancy exists in terms of work
| effort v. minimally accomodating income comes their way in
| return. Thus the worker shortage and BS argument that people
| don't want to work.
|
| Blue collar work deserves a living wage. Austin, at least in
| the area he works in, has an average of 110,000 USD/y, yet the
| workers can barely survive living with roommates 40 minutes
| away. That's 80 minutes of your life just driving in addition
| to menial income - average that out and it's even worse.
|
| Texas is embarrassingly low in its minimum wage laws. Why is it
| acceptable for a base wage of 2.13 USD/h for waiters when
| considering the cost of living has increased across the board
| in every way? Where does the disconnect lie here? Why is it
| acceptable that minimum wage is stil 7.35 USD/h, which decides
| how much the "higher" paying blue collar jobs pay in
| comparison?
|
| You are exhibiting what I would consider an elitist mentality.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| >Why is it acceptable that minimum wage is stil 7.35 USD/h,
| which decides how much the "higher" paying blue collar jobs
| pay in comparison?
|
| It has been a long time since the minimum wage decided
| anything, even in Texas. And in states that have not updated
| their minimum wage, it is because the voters are not voting
| for leaders that will raise the minimum wage. And those same
| voters are sending Senators and Representatives to the
| federal Congress, where again, they do not raise the minimum
| wage.
| TomK32 wrote:
| Previous discussion with 444 comments
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30023074
| arolihas wrote:
| We're supposed to tip at movie theaters?
| mcphage wrote:
| Well, if the movie theater has bartenders, then yes--you tip
| bartenders, and other wait staff.
|
| If it's just someone selling snacks behind a counter, then I'd
| say no.
| njovin wrote:
| Imagine that I go to a movie theater and order a soda and a
| beer.
|
| The cashier pours the soda into a cup from the fountain
| machine.
|
| The bartender pours the beer into a plastic pint from a tap.
|
| Why is the bartender deserving of a tip in this scenario?
| woodruffw wrote:
| The "stupid" answer is because it's customary in (much of)
| the US to tip a bartender, even if that bartender is just
| serving you a beer.
|
| Tipping is both economic and customary in nature; you'll
| find that most people agree that the economics that
| encourage it are dumb, but that the dumbness of those
| economics doesn't make changing customs easy.
| pavel_lishin wrote:
| This is a theater that also serves dinner with the show; think
| of it less like a movie theater, and more like a restaurant
| that happens to show a movie.
| tomrod wrote:
| Nope. I paid the movie ticket. Wage is in that $20-$30 dollar
| ticket price.
|
| I don't pay to enter restaurants either.
| tomrod wrote:
| Nope.
| bnchrch wrote:
| Hard to see the forest from behind that tree.
| lwhalen wrote:
| This is wonderful. "Professional politician gets real job after
| getting run out of town on a rail for Covid tyranny, realizes
| 'gee, working for a living is tough!', tries to cash in on that
| sweet, sweet, substack blogging-money"
|
| We truly live in the wildest timeline.
| woodruffw wrote:
| I'll respond to the only substantive part of your comment: this
| looks like a guest post on someone else's blog, so he probably
| isn't making any money on it.
| pavel_lishin wrote:
| Covid tyranny?
| jjulius wrote:
| >... after getting run out of town on a rail for Covid
| tyranny...
|
| This feels disingenuous. McCamley ran the department
| responsible for overseeing unemployment claims, and it was
| death threats related to those unemployment claims that
| prompted him to leave town. I'd be genuinely curious to see if
| you have something that ties this to COVID specifically.
|
| >... tries to cash in on that sweet, sweet, substack blogging-
| money
|
| Kinda hard to do that when you're essentially the guest
| commentator on someone else's Substack, though, no?
|
| >We truly live in the wildest timeline.
|
| Yeah, timelines where people flippantly throw out factually
| incorrect hot takes _are_ pretty wild.
| justsomehnguy wrote:
| > Staff rely on tips because wages are not at a living level
|
| Fucking lol.
|
| > Crap like this is so demoralizing
|
| Yes, but not because people don't tip.
|
| > because workers need the money to live
|
| Yet the capitalist who _don 't want_ to pay a living level wage
| is totally not the reason workers need tips.
| fishtacos wrote:
| What's the difference? The end result is the same for the
| worker.
| njovin wrote:
| The difference is that the by allowing business to pay under
| minimum wage (in some states), the business get to create an
| adversarial relationship between the staff and the customers,
| and blame the customers when staff don't make as much money
| as they'd hoped.
|
| This is IMO bad for everyone's happiness. Servers get upset
| with customers for not tipping enough and customers get to
| feel pressure and anxiety over tipping.
|
| Compare that to a world where the employer has to actually
| pay their employees their full wage (like literally every
| other industry), and now you have predictable wages and less
| friction throughout the dining experience.
| petsfed wrote:
| I think there is an element of shitty consumer behavior here.
|
| Its axiomatic: people want to pay as little as possible. But
| there's a certain kind of consumer, who goes out of their way
| to flaunt that while they _could_ pay more, they 're not going
| to. And its not because the extra $10 for a reasonable tip
| would break them. Its not because they fundamentally disagree
| with the concept of tipping (although that may well be the case
| in addition). Its because the person "tipping" believes that no
| adult should be working at a movie theater, and if they wanted
| to make real money, they'd get a real fucking job, and no, I'm
| not taking resumes, why would I want to hire somebody who could
| only get a job pouring beers at a movie theater?!
|
| Its really hard to overstate the antipathy that service sector
| employees experience on a regular basis, and how far out of
| their way certain customers will go to make sure that those
| employees _know_ that those certain customers hold them in
| utter contempt.
| TuringNYC wrote:
| The problem is that wealthy liberals and conservatives are in on
| a long-con against the American worker class. They want to
| pretend Inflation doesnt exist or has been conquered (e.g.,
| https://x.com/paulkrugman/status/1712494317024026761?s=20) but
| refuse to reconcile that against fundamental numbers -- you
| cannot make ends meet with the current minimum wages.
|
| ZIRP has been disastrous for everyone except leveraged asset
| owners (i.e., the wealthy). Assets inflated in price, rents rose
| commensurately, and we all pretended things were OK because of
| ZIRP and "fixed" it with further leverage to maintain
| affordability.
| doublespanner wrote:
| I feel like a focus on minimum wages is misplaced, it's hiding
| the real problem that is the value of labour has been diluted.
|
| The minimum wage should be set based on determining the rate a
| sound minded well informed advocate could negotiate for the
| work. That is preventing exploitation. It should not be used to
| try to set a living wage, because as we have seen, this just
| leads to the COL increasing for everyone... Leading to a
| greater concentration of wealth as the average person now has
| less ability to save.
| metadat wrote:
| (2022)
|
| Edit: @fishtacos, haha.. now I can't delete it bc you replied (;
| fishtacos wrote:
| Read above.
| cibyr wrote:
| (2022)
| fishtacos wrote:
| TX still pays 2.13/h for wait staff + tips, with a guarantee of
| bi-weekly guarantee of 7.35/h if tips don't make up for it.
| 2023 is still the same.
| tomrod wrote:
| Texas (and other places) gets a lot of labor complaints too
| for stiffing this.
|
| https://www.epi.org/publication/employers-steal-billions-
| fro...
| fishtacos wrote:
| I waited tables before, during and slighly after college,
| in TX. This was well-known, but am glad it's at least
| reported, even if not addressed. The entitled replies here
| are embarrassing.
| tomrod wrote:
| For me, I'm antitipping culture, but realize the only way
| it changes is when the servers, line cooks, cashiers, and
| hostesses as a working class group get fed up and demand
| better.
|
| Until then, it's a revolving door, and vested interests
| target to make customers and wait staff angry at each
| other.
| icameron wrote:
| What is this referring to in the article?
|
| > The benefit situation is no better. Workers get to see free
| movies when theaters aren't busy, and get half off of meals
| purchased while at work. But that doesn't help when you need to
| see a doctor or get a prescription (Thank you Obama for your
| Care).
|
| Wasn't the cornerstone of the Obama plan a mandated health
| insurance by employers, but it was gutted by the next opposition
| congress?
| dataflow wrote:
| Yeah I came to ask a similar question, I'm confused what this
| had to do with Obamacare.
| bink wrote:
| I assumed he was referring to the ability now for people to buy
| individual healthcare plans that are subsidized by the
| government, whereas they couldn't before. But I admit it isn't
| very clear.
| djur wrote:
| The ACA employer mandate is still in place (it's the individual
| mandate that has been zeroed out). Maybe this guy isn't a full-
| time worker?
| gurchik wrote:
| If I recall correctly, the ACA only ever required employers
| with 50 or more full time employees to offer coverage to their
| full time employees. As I understand it, this mandate was
| delayed a couple times but it eventually stuck. But that is
| moot considering a huge portion of workers in the food service
| industry don't meet that criteria (either not full time or the
| employer has fewer than 50 employees) so they don't get any
| employer coverage. I'm not sure what the author meant by the
| "Thank you Obama" comment - is he criticizing the ACA for not
| going further with the mandatory coverage, or is this just a
| reference to the "thanks Obama" meme?
| JohnMakin wrote:
| > Labor is supposed to have value. A good days' work deserves a
| good days' pay.
|
| Society by and large does _not_ believe this. If you dig into it
| a little bit, asking why fast-food workers and the people that
| serve them their starbucks shouldn 't make more money, the answer
| always boils down to "I need people that serve me to be
| socioeconomically inferior to me"
| not-my-account wrote:
| > "I need people that serve me to be socioeconomically inferior
| to me"
|
| Do you actually think people think this way? I've never met
| anyone who thinks like that.
| JohnMakin wrote:
| Go ahead, ask someone to explain why a guy at starbucks
| "deserves" to be making less than a living wage, it boils
| down to this. There's no real argument for it.
|
| If you ask them why they shouldn't make more, they'll
| typically say something like "it's not meant to be a career"
| or some nonsense about inflation. Yet, society still needs
| people to pour coffee or serve fast food, so by arguing
| against a living wage in this manner you are actually arguing
| that people with menial jobs should be poor by merit of the
| type of work they do. Granted that isn't a perfect 1:1 with
| what I said, but the attitude is definitely there. Why else
| would someone be so vehemently against a person making a
| living wage?
| tomrod wrote:
| I call BS on this, that society "by and large" must be served
| by socioecnomic inferiors. We simply have too many societies
| where socioeconomic class is a main divider that don't have a
| tipping culture.
|
| People not in the luxury class respond to prices, full stop.
| This is a policy (tipping allowed to be performed) that has
| gained pseudomoral status.
| Yodel0914 wrote:
| I don't think either of these positions is correct.
|
| The reason fast food workers don't earn more money is because
| there is a pool of workers who are willing to accept the
| current wages, because they don't have a better alternative. It
| has nothing to do with "deserve", in either direction.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| I think this is an absurdly cynical take. I have never met
| someone who thinks that.
|
| I think most people actually believe in supply and demand, and
| that it has nothing to do with effort.
|
| Most people intuitively understand that if someone is not
| easily replaceable, they have more leverage. If there is a line
| of replacements out the door, they have little leverage.
| SuperNinKenDo wrote:
| It completely blows my mind that some magical expected tip amount
| is baked in to make an already abysmal minimum wage even lower.
| Pure skulduggery.
| hahahacorn wrote:
| Since it has recently come to become a major personality trait. I
| can't help but notice the bullshit of 20-40 minute commutes in
| traffic being "normal". Good public transportation, smart mixed
| use development, and generally reducing car dependence could be a
| very large factor in mitigating the pain of this employment.
|
| I did appreciate the author mentioning how tired they are after
| moving for 6.5 hours straight. I worked 3 years in the service
| industry as a food runner, I still remember my busiest shift
| being a 5 hour lunch on Memorial Day when we had 3/5 runners not
| show up. Easily the most chaotic (and profitable) shift I've ever
| worked. I did ~35k steps in the 6 hours I was working, while
| carrying comically large food trays around half the time. But, I
| almost made more money/hr than I currently do as a senior
| software engineer in the Bay Area, lol.
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