[HN Gopher] Honeybee clustering when it's cold is a distress beh...
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Honeybee clustering when it's cold is a distress behavior: study
Author : sohkamyung
Score : 101 points
Date : 2023-11-25 00:20 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (theconversation.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (theconversation.com)
| ChumpGPT wrote:
| We would use thick Styrofoam insulation (2-3) inches thick and
| would insulate the entire hive with it. In the winter we would
| feed them occasionally with warm honey/sugar. The Hives were also
| protected by a row of thick Evergreens as a wind break. Maybe
| lost one or two hives over a decade. If your not wrapping them
| and preparing them for winter than you shouldn't have bees.
| sfink wrote:
| The article directly agrees with you (though your thickness is
| even better than they propose):
|
| > This means that for hive walls to be effective, they have to
| be substantially insulating, such as 30mm of polystyrene.
| mrweasel wrote:
| Modern Scandinavian beehives are normally made from Styropor,
| and about 30 - 40mm thick. The bees will still cluster. I do
| think you're on to something though, because losing only two
| hives over a decade is pretty impressive, regardless of your
| number of hives. A common issue is that the bee will cluster
| and move "the wrong way" in the hive, away from available food,
| and the get stuck in a corner and starve. It seems like the
| level of isolation you provide might be enough that the bees
| are more free to move around.
| bjelkeman-again wrote:
| One way to combat that, according to our old bee keeping
| advisor, is to have at least two boxes and stack them so that
| the frames are 90 degrees to each other (one box compared to
| the next), with food in both boxes. This way the bees seem to
| not get stuck in a corner as often.
| mrweasel wrote:
| I never heard that, but that sounds reasonable. In Denmark
| it's generally considered less than ideal to have more than
| one box during the winter, unless you use Seeberger or
| other lower profile boxes.
| bjelkeman-again wrote:
| Our advisor always used two boxes, normal height, and it
| seemed to work for him. We have been using two with
| reasonable success for a few years. But the sample is
| small.
| voisin wrote:
| > If your not wrapping them and preparing them for winter than
| you shouldn't have bees.
|
| There is an entire philosophy of beekeeping supported by a
| variety of studies conducted on remote islands around the UK
| that we should be positioning bees for minimal interference
| like you suggest (as well as interference via mite treatments,
| etc) in order to allow for evolutionary adaptations to create
| more robust bee populations.
| giantg2 wrote:
| This depends heavily on the local climate. There are some
| places where it is required and others where it is not.
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| There seem to be a lot of hobbies or activities like beekeeping
| where people seriously neglect the animals' needs yet seem
| quite oblivious to it. I've noticed in aquaria that people
| often seem to think fish or shrimp will be fine in absolutely
| dire conditions such as low oxygen, chemically unstable, cold,
| hot, or otherwise hostile environments. They're genuinely
| confused when the system collapses. Certainly some species are
| very resilient, but it's no surprise that people lose entire
| hives or aquariums like this. Caring for nature requires real
| care, attention, and diligence.
|
| As in aquaria, if you want something you can "set and forget",
| you need to let nature take over and provide a) a biome
| resembling a natural habitat and b) place the appropriate
| species and scape inside it. Then you can get away with no
| mechanical filtration, no heater, no air, etc. You can safely
| go on vacation because the system will clean itself, generate
| food, and so on. But that requires considerable knowledge and
| care at the outset and the willingness to let things be. In the
| case of beekeeping, this almost seems like you'd need to allow
| a hive to be inside of a log or stump or something where the
| bees are properly protected and secure. Barring that, you need
| to be cognizant of their needs and actually take care of them.
|
| I'm not sure why people get the idea that animals should
| survive in conditions so wildly different from their natural
| conditions, and why they continue to try to make it work.
| Night_Thastus wrote:
| >There seem to be a lot of hobbies or activities like
| beekeeping where people seriously neglect the animals' needs
| yet seem quite oblivious to it.
|
| Reptiles are notorious for this as well. I am an avid fan of
| snakes, and it's depressing to see how often they are kept
| very poorly. So little humidity that they have multiple
| layers of stuck eyecaps - potentially losing their vision.
| Serious infections from bites from live-feeding. Tiny cramped
| enclosures with nowhere for the snake to hide. Poor heat
| management that either leaves it freezing or with serious
| burns. Overfeeding to the point of obesity. Buying wild-
| caught animals. Buying snakes with severe genetic problems.
|
| It's very frustrating. Some owners are responsive to advice
| and will quickly do what they can to improve their care - but
| some are stubborn and won't accept any at all.
| zlg_codes wrote:
| > I'm not sure why people get the idea that animals should
| survive in conditions so wildly different from their natural
| conditions, and why they continue to try to make it work.
|
| You're aware of what animal we are, yes? Our natural habitat
| is the _savanna_. We 're grassland, running monkeys. We've
| spread across the entire globe and put our own kind into
| situations we'd never ask an animal to excel.
|
| It's practically in our own nature to try to defy nature
| itself, in a stroke of irony.
|
| You're correct, for the record. People get into things they
| have no clue about and then animals suffer for it. But this
| stood out to me because we even expect ourselves to make it
| outside of good conditions.
| cryptonector wrote:
| Where? I don't insulate mine, but it's Central Texas, where...
| it does admittedly get very cold from time to time, but not
| usually for very long.
| nuc1e0n wrote:
| Honeybee Christmas of course
| cbsmith wrote:
| I wonder if this is in some way part of the cause of colony
| collapse...
| SquirrelOnFire wrote:
| That seems unlikely, given that beekeepers have kept hives in
| similar thin-walled boxes for centuries and colony collapse is
| a recent phenomenon. Plus CC occurs in wild populations[1] as
| well, suggesting either a widespread environmental factor or
| communicable agent.
|
| [1]https://www.nrdc.org/stories/colony-collapse-disorder-why-
| ar...
| cbsmith wrote:
| I wasn't suggesting it was the _cause_ , so much as a
| contributor. There's a general sense that the odds of CC
| increase as the colony becomes more and more stressed.
| alternative_a wrote:
| I think it inaccurate to think of the hive as an extension of
| phenotype of an individual bee. It's a bit recursive since it is
| the collection of the individual bees -- the hive -- that builds
| the physical aspects of the hive. What is interesting here is the
| tantalizing notion of layers of awareness and individuality and
| what (or more interestingly where) is the human super-organism
| operating.
| giantg2 wrote:
| This is interesting, but what is the application? The debate
| about insulating or not has been going on for a long time.
| Anecdotal experience has been that losses have been similar for
| people who insulate vs not insulating, and those losses vary from
| year to year. Of course there are numerous other reasons for
| colony loss, but if this was a significant factor, I would assume
| we'd see a noticeable effect.
| notanote wrote:
| Agreed. Beekeepers have gathered a lot of experience. Is some
| of it based on incorrect understanding of science? Sure. Would
| they have noticed if insulation was a deciding factor in loss
| of colonies? Absolutely.
|
| I will say that this article together with one from earlier
| this year [1] put into question the benefit of cold storage.
|
| [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-39095-5
| Yhippa wrote:
| My takeaway is that clustering is a distress signal and that
| reducing distress would be the humane thing to do assuming that
| insects feel pain.
| kurthr wrote:
| Humans prefer fake treatments that cause pain, because you
| "know they're working".
|
| This cold storage is a significant added cost and used only
| in hot areas . It minimizes varroa since the mites can only
| breed in hives with brood. It's done in spring when otherwise
| the bees might swarm. Failing to insulate hives in cold areas
| will require more feeding to maintain colony size over
| winter, and that would be financially dumb.
|
| https://www.projectapism.org/indoor-storage-of-honey-bees-
| bl...
|
| The writer seems like an expert, but makes weird assumptions.
| Commercial beekeepers are very different (and care much more
| about costs and output) than hobbyists. Some hobbyists are no
| doubt incompetent (but caring), and some commercial
| operations are completely uncaring (but rarely incompetent).
| giantg2 wrote:
| "Failing to insulate hives in cold areas will require more
| feeding to maintain colony size over winter."
|
| What I have heard is that they use less food when it it
| cooler due to their metabolism being lower.
| pvaldes wrote:
| > assuming that insects feel pain
|
| Sometimes it seems that this kind of philosophical narratives
| are anchored in XVII century science. Everything with pain
| receptors feels pain. Period. Animals evolved this structures
| exclusively to feeling pain. Because this is a very positive
| trait if you want to survive.
|
| Insects and other invertebrates are known to have pain
| receptors since the XX century (Yes, clams feel pain, and
| roundworms feel pain also). This is not new ground breaking
| science at all. What is new is using this to move forward the
| agenda of the cruelty animal crew.
|
| I'm not against building better beehives, but we should
| focus, --laser focus--, our attention and most of all our
| scarce resources investing into much more urgent problems
| with insect losing of habitat, being poisoned and facing
| extinction.
|
| Because money is scarce on conservation and much more scarce
| on invertebrate conservation; and "give me money or this bee
| will die frozen two days before to just die of old age and be
| replaced by other bee" is a ridiculous problem.
| aftbit wrote:
| Quick translation for those who are confused by the Roman
| numerals like I originally was:
|
| XVII century -> 17th century -> years 1600 to 1699
|
| XX century -> 20th century -> years 1900 to 1999
| giantg2 wrote:
| "Everything with pain receptors feels pain."
|
| Yet they'll never know real pain like the devs in deadend
| or overworked jobs.
| jadbox wrote:
| The ending was a little odd to me. Why would someone believe that
| hives aren't extended phenotype of the bee? As the article
| examples: hives to bees are like beavers to dams.
| cosmojg wrote:
| Or buildings to humans!
| dwallin wrote:
| I felt the article pretty thoroughly explained why the author
| feels that hives are not currently respected as an extended
| phenotype. Many studies of bee behavior are run on bees in
| artificial hives. They are treating artificial hives as
| interchangeable with their natural equivalents and assuming
| that the behavior observed reflects normal bee behavior. This
| can lead to many erroneous conclusions, the same way you might
| get misleading studies on beaver behavior if you studied a
| bunch of beavers living in a rabbit hutch. To quote from the
| article:
|
| > Honeybee (Apis mellifera) colonies don't hibernate. In the
| wild they overwinter in tree cavities that keep at least some
| of their numbers above 18degC in a wide range of climates,
| including -40degC winters. But popular understanding of their
| overwintering behaviour is dominated by observation of their
| behaviour in thin (19mm) wooden hives. These man-made hives
| have very different thermal properties compared with their
| natural habitat of thick-walled (150mm) tree hollows.
| zlg_codes wrote:
| This is an important detail! Imagine pulling up to a motel
| and finding out the insulation sucks. You didn't plan for it
| so you're cold.
| pests wrote:
| I read a great book Honeybee Democracy by Thomas Dyer Seeley
| (2010)
|
| Highly recommended for more information on bees and their hives.
| fsckboy wrote:
| so my analogy for this type of bias is, I only want to discuss
| things like whether (we should have helped Ukraine resist Russia
| /or/ if Israel's response to Hamas is appropriate) with people
| who are completely honest about their motivations. If you are
| "anti-war" (typical meaning in the Western context) just say that
| you are anti-war. I can understand the position, I won't freak
| out, and I will make sure your vote will be counted. But I don't
| want to discuss it with you just to hear you invent a bunch of
| customized reasons why in each circumstance there's no logic to
| helping Ukraine or Israel, etc.
|
| If you are ethically a vegetarian, just tell me that, don't tell
| me how unhealthy meat is, it's a waste of time (=a portion of
| both our precious lives), it's a lie, and it's bad science (as in
| it's motivated to a goal, not that it's necessarily wrong; if it
| turns out to be right, the boy-who-cried-wolf is not the right
| messenger).
|
| we used to think that bees cluster to keep warm, didn't we? this
| person says clustering is a stress response... well, being cold
| can be stressful, so can taking the GREs, that doesn't mean it's
| not good for you. So then I read this shit:
|
| > _Deliberately inducing clustering by practice or poor hive
| design may be considered poor welfare or even cruelty, in light
| of these findings. There are almost no ethics standards for
| insects. But there is growing evidence that insects feel pain. A
| 2022 study found that bumblebees react to potentially harmful
| stimuli in a way that is similar to pain responses in humans. We
| urgently need to change beekeeping practice to reduce the
| frequency and duration of clustering_
|
| Nothing wrong with thinking we need to stress over reducing bee
| stress, but you're stressing me when I discover that I'm
| listening to a person obsessed with a fairly narrow slice of what
| it means to be a human, or what it means to be a bee.
| rightbyte wrote:
| That was a very indirect way to say you don't care for bees'
| housing?
|
| And I don't agree with your point either. Auxillary arguments
| are good. If the bees' housing needs don't concern you. Maybe a
| claim that they make better honey while not stressed would.
| calf wrote:
| How do you reasonably distinguish this between a serious
| disagreement in a debate, versus an author with an axe to grind
| (i.e., having hidden motivations)?
| fsckboy wrote:
| I was simply asking for people to politely do it themselves.
| If you want to do serious research, you need to look for your
| own biases, that's the honorable thing to do we would all
| agree. I was just posting a reminder.
|
| I don't dismiss the ideas of a pacifist or a vegan, I would
| just prefer not to hear lots of repetition, especially when
| it's disguised.
| WaitWaitWha wrote:
| A couple of notes on the article, that I disagree with, backing
| it up by "appeal to authority" through my decades as a beek.
|
| > These man-made hives have very different thermal properties
| compared with their natural habitat of thick-walled (150mm) tree
| hollows.
|
| Bees, including _Apis mellifera_ will build hives anywhere where
| there is sufficient cover, space, and ventilation, not just
| "thick-walled (150mm) tree hollows".
|
| > On cold days in these thin-walled hives, colonies form dense
| disks of bees, called a cluster, between the honeycombs.
|
| The presumption is that the human made hives are less thermally
| protective because they are "thin-walled". This is just patently
| incorrect. There are many, many hive designs and many are made
| out of wood, but many are made out of plastics or even styrofoam.
| Their thermal protection can be significantly higher than 150mm
| wood (later noted in the article substantially insulating, such
| as 30mm of polystyrene".)
|
| Bees do not form a dense "disks of bees". They form a ball, and
| rotate in and out with the queen around the center, just like the
| referenced penguins.
|
| I could not identify the type of hives that were evaluated. From
| the picture, it appears to be a tiny apiary with Langstroth
| design, all with three full/deep/brood boxes. From the pictures
| in the paper, they evaluated eight hives.
|
| I am willing to learn, but this single article provides
| insufficient details how the data was collected and in what
| context was done.
|
| Most non-initiates think that beekeepers somehow control bee
| colonies like cows or chicken. Not so much. If a colony decides
| they want to leave, there is almost nothing you can do about it;
| they will leave. If they figure they did not like the winter,
| they will move. A hive will be just fine in a felled log, a
| hollow tree, or human made space for years without any
| interaction. It is more of a symbiotic relationship than a
| stewardship.
|
| edit: spellingerating fixage
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