[HN Gopher] Sydney's underground spaghetti junction opens
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Sydney's underground spaghetti junction opens
Author : gggggs
Score : 51 points
Date : 2023-11-26 09:31 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.smh.com.au)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.smh.com.au)
| PebblesHD wrote:
| And continues Sydney's inability to build any public
| infrastructure without then selling it cheaply to a private
| company to then reap massive profits for decades from us. Sydney
| was already the most tolled city in the world before this opened.
| We're still number 1 I guess...
| throwaheyy wrote:
| With perpetually heavy traffic, a nice sandstone geology and no
| earthquakes, not to mention the home of Macquarie Bank, Sydney
| is like a perfect shitstorm of conditions for a massive network
| of freeway toll tunnels. At least, one of the tunnels is being
| built for trains, should be more though.
| fatnoah wrote:
| The schematic of that intersection makes me feel much better
| about some of the complicated junctions I've created in city
| builder games.
| sillywalk wrote:
| $17 Billion. Wow.
| jiggawatts wrote:
| That's in Australian dollars. In terms of USD it's "just" $11
| billion...
| runeofdoom wrote:
| Makes the Space Launch System look efficient and productive
| by comparison.
| gizajob wrote:
| That's just a team of tradies working Sundays for a year.
| FridgeSeal wrote:
| I used to live nearish this nightmare. It's truly awful planning
| and design. It's got everything:
|
| - lanes that surprisingly lo you into turning off
|
| - lanes where you start in the left, and then find yourself on
| the right, and unable to take the turn you want (you have to
| lane-dive across another 2 lanes of traffic).
|
| - confusing split-and-rejoin mechanics that happen for now reason
| other than apparently "the designer wanted to fit every kind of
| junction and road shape into their project"
|
| - it's so poorly designed, if you're in Balmain (the peninsula
| side) and you want to get to Glebe/Forest-Lodge/Annandale; you
| have to spend 5 minutes (per light) in 3 sets of lights, to
| _join_ all of the main traffic for a grand total of 200m, and
| lane dive, just to turn off again. For anyone not familiar with
| Sydney traffic, the "cross traffic" that goes city <---> west is
| _hideous_. If you're in Balmain, and you want to go the ~1km to
| Glebe you're in for pain and wasted time.
|
| Spaghetti junction is an understatement, whoever worked on this,
| and had any role in it other than saying "this is awful" should
| be barred from working on infrastructure ever again and be made
| to sit in the corner and think about what they've done.
| davely wrote:
| > Spaghetti junction is an understatement, whoever worked on
| this, and had any role in it other than saying "this is awful"
| should be barred from working on infrastructure ever again and
| be made to sit in the corner and think about what they've done.
|
| I grew up in Southern California and there was a notoriously
| horrible interchange (the 60 / 91 / 215) I had to navigate each
| day driving to university.
|
| The rumor that people liked to spread (completely unfounded,
| I'm sure), is that the engineer responsible for it killed
| themselves because of how bad it was and how many accidents
| occurred.
|
| I imagine this same sort of rumor is repeated about various
| interchanges the world over.
|
| EDIT:
|
| There are much more ridiculous looking intersections, but an
| interesting LA Times article on the interchange from 2007. [1]
| An improvement project that rebuilt the interchange was
| completed in 2007. [2]
|
| [1] https://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-
| freeway21sep21-story.htm...
|
| [2] https://www.caltrop.com/project-
| details/sr60-sr91-i215-inter...
| noduerme wrote:
| I grew up in LA and drove taxi... just looking at the
| 60/(91/215), it looks pretty standard and not that different
| from the 10/215, but I don't think I've ever taken that exit
| from the 60. As enormous as SoCal freeway interchanges are,
| I've come to appreciate their design compared to the roads
| where I live now in Portland, OR. Every on- and off-ramp in
| Portland feels like it was tacked on or squeezed in, in the
| worst possible way. Moreover, the marking of exits is
| confusing and far too late. For out-of-town drivers it's
| almost impossible to don't know which side of a freeway will
| actually keep you on the freeway until you get to a sign, by
| which time you've already passed a mile of stopped cars in
| the lane you need to be in. The 26/405 junction heading east
| on 26, for example, splits the 3-lane highway into 3 exits,
| only one of which connects to the 405 and later splits into
| north and south (the other two connect to surface streets).
| This creates a condition where the center lane is moving fast
| between two lines of stopped cars, some of whom are anxiously
| realizing they're in the wrong lane and need to dive into the
| center, while some people in the center hit the brakes when
| they realize they need to dive into the stopped cars left or
| right.
| mynegation wrote:
| Do you mean this one:
| https://maps.app.goo.gl/kF1PuDcgMotp91JR7?g_st=ic I am sure I
| am missing few details never having driven through it, but
| looks like pretty standard highway interchange. For
| comparison, here is the one I navigate regularly and would
| describe as mildly challenging:
| https://maps.app.goo.gl/S4zX6rXJt8dpBXig6?g_st=ic
| davely wrote:
| Yeah, looking at a map, it looks pretty vanilla and I'm not
| sure why it had such a notorious reputation at this point.
| If I recall, I think the original was a cloverleaf design,
| so in every direction you had people merging on and off in
| a span of about 300 feet.
|
| Ah, yeah. It was renovated in 2007. [1] An LA Times article
| on its reputation is here. [2]
|
| > And there are plenty of accidents. Sgt. Morrison of the
| California Highway Patrol estimates that his officers
| respond to about 30 calls a day in and around the
| interchange. They handle fender-benders, stalled cars and
| the occasional 20-car pileup.
|
| That said, either way, it is pretty vanilla compared to the
| legit spaghetti mentioned in the article with regard to the
| Sydney interchange.
|
| [1] https://www.caltrop.com/project-
| details/sr60-sr91-i215-inter...
|
| [2] https://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-
| freeway21sep21-story.htm...
| 14u2c wrote:
| From the article it looks like you must pay $11 for pleasure of
| using this monstrosity as well? Wild.
| resolutebat wrote:
| Only if you enter the motorway sections. Through traffic
| across the interchange is free.
| ChatGTP wrote:
| I think it's really sad Sydney is so car centric now.
|
| I remember reading about these projects when first commissioned
| and it really felt like more rail was a better investment.
|
| I took the westconnex on a visit a year or so ago. It was
| freaking empty. I couldn't believe it.
| dottjt wrote:
| Sydney CBD is notorious for it's terrible roads.
|
| Unlike Melbourne which has a perfectly rectangle CBD.
|
| Yes, it's a rivalry.
| 10u152 wrote:
| Worse roads, more people take public transport. Win/win. How's
| that train link to Melboune airport again? Oh right. Right.
| siquick wrote:
| And Sydney has superior public transport to Melbourne.
| dottjt wrote:
| Melbourne has more letters in it's name. That's a clear win
| right there.
| l33tbro wrote:
| A rivalry to the people in Melbourne. Love you guys though and
| your city. A lot more cultural events going on.
| resolutebat wrote:
| Say the Melbournians as they huddle in their laneways holding
| flat whites and cursing the terrible weather, while
| Sydneysiders are out surfing at the beach on yet another
| glorious sunny day.
| rr808 wrote:
| The harbour geography makes transport tough. Much prettier but
| much less efficient.
| resolutebat wrote:
| Melbourne was designed and sits on a flat pancake of land.
|
| Sydney grew largely organically and is smeared across countless
| fjord-type bays and stew hills.
| medo-bear wrote:
| There are things that grow organically and arent anywhere
| near as shit as Sydney
| userbinator wrote:
| I think the designers had way too much fun making this.
| genman wrote:
| What problems did they expect to solve? Did this actually solve
| these problems?
| FridgeSeal wrote:
| Solve???
|
| No see you're mistaken, NSW government rarely does
| infrastructure projects to _solve_ problems, no they do
| infrastructure projects to funnel public cash to their mates in
| transport and construction.
| __d wrote:
| This would be funny, if it weren't so true.
| ChatGTP wrote:
| None, they should've built more rail and light rail.
| ajxs wrote:
| I don't even know where to start explaining what a giant disaster
| the entire WestConnext project has been for Sydney. There was an
| enormous amount of controversy surrounding the planning of the
| WestConnext project, with many allegations of corruption made
| against the state government. One of the most concerning
| developments was the state government 'amalgamating' the local
| councils who disagreed to the construction of this monstrosity.
| Effectively sacking the local mayors who were causing trouble for
| the developers. After getting this big mess approved, the then
| state premier Mike Baird resigned to take part in what has become
| a great Australian political tradition: Resigning from political
| office amidst corruption allegations to take up executive
| positions in highly regulated industries.
| siquick wrote:
| > After getting this big mess approved, the then state premier
| Mike Baird resigned to take part in what has become a great
| Australian political tradition: Resigning from political office
| amidst corruption allegations to take up executive positions in
| highly regulated industries.
|
| It's truly embarrassing. Would like to see a ban on them
| working in private industry for two years after they leave
| office.
| __d wrote:
| Then they'd just get a "signing bonus" of two years salary.
| You cannot easily legislate around this.
| siquick wrote:
| That's fine, private companies can spend their money on
| what they want. After two years out of government their
| influence will have somewhat waned.
| cjs_ac wrote:
| This is only the first part; it'll get more complicated when the
| Western Harbour Tunnel is built and connected to it. You can see
| the opened parts and the planned parts on OpenStreetMap:
| https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/-33.8723/151.1662
|
| Motorways in Sydney have an interesting history. After the Second
| World War, the County of Cumberland Plan provided for a radial
| motorway network. In the latter half of the twentieth century,
| once parts of the network had been built, local residents raised
| objections and the plan was changed to orbital motorways. For
| example, the Sydney-Newcastle expressway was supposed to run down
| through the Lane Cove Valley (near the current path of the M2)
| and then down to Huntley's Point, and into the CBD via the ANZAC
| Bridge. This explains the over-engineered junction at Huntley's
| Point. Similarly, the Warringah Expressway was supposed to run
| over Middle Harbour into the Northern Beaches, rather than
| directing the M2 over the Harbour Bridge. That's why it's called
| the Warringah Expressway despite not going to Warringah.
|
| Sydney suffers from extraordinarily bad design. Lachlan
| Macquarie's ill-fated attempt to move the colonial capital to
| Parramatta, leaving Sydney as the port, would have solved an
| awful lot of problems, but was scuppered by the fact that
| economic power was held by the merchants, who wanted to stay
| close to their ships. The NSW Government's Three Cities plan is
| an attempt to fix this, but will be held back by two centuries of
| prestige held by the current CBD and its proximity to the North
| Shore and Eastern Suburbs.
|
| The city also suffers from Menzian urban sprawl. The 'Great
| Australian Dream' of a quarter acre block with a freestanding
| house and a car (sewage connection optional) has created vast,
| unwieldy cities, where high frequency, topologically dense public
| transport is uneconomical. In the nineteenth-century inner city
| suburbs, the car is difficult to park; in the other suburbs, it
| is a prerequisite for civic and economic participation.
|
| Sydney's suburban rail network runs on the same tracks as the
| regional passenger and freight trains. The fledgling Sydney Metro
| network incorporates contemporary technology and is fully grade
| separated, so that delays on one line don't cause a full network
| meltdown, as happens on the suburban network. However, despite
| being hailed as a high-throughput commuter network, it has
| stations further apart than the old railway network, and so is
| more difficult to use to actually go anywhere.
|
| But China keeps buying the iron ore, so it'll be all right in the
| long run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiNXIELdZO4
| Etheryte wrote:
| I hope hot-linking this works, but the map of the cursed thing
| really is something out of Lovecraftian horror:
| https://www.smh.com.au/interactive/modules/graphic-embed/?re...
| resolutebat wrote:
| I see your 2D map and raise you the 3D version:
| https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/213bb0e29ad5a183695c9...
| Etheryte wrote:
| I have to say, that's pretty darn amazing because I thought
| surely it couldn't possibly get any worse, but then somehow
| it still did.
| water-data-dude wrote:
| It reminds me of what roads look like in dreams where I'm
| driving on a highway
| gonzo41 wrote:
| And this is why I never enjoy having to rent a car in Sydney.
| This city is a nightmare.
| discobean wrote:
| It looks like something I would build in Cities Skylines - but
| I'm sure it's not that bad in real life once everybody gets used
| to it and will make things better in the long term.
| beAbU wrote:
| The problem isn't the regular drivers getting used to it over
| time. It's the inexperienced drivers using this junction for
| the first time that are at risk of getting confused and cause
| an accident.
|
| Road infra should require zero "getting used to" and should be
| as boring and unsurprising as possible. Anything else is an
| accident waiting to happen.
| resolutebat wrote:
| Since everybody is slagging this, let me provide an argument for
| the opposition:
|
| Sydney has long needed something like Westconnex. Here's what the
| motorway network looks like:
|
| https://roadsaustralia.weebly.com/uploads/7/7/9/8/77988430/s...
|
| The peninsula to the east where the M1 is the city core and
| everything around it is very, very densely built up. Before
| WestConnex, from where I live in the Inner West, getting to the
| airport, under 10 km away, _required_ zigzagging through
| residential neighborhoods and going through approximately a
| million traffic lights. There were no motorways to the city, no
| motorways away from the city, and no motorways radially around
| the city either.
|
| WestConnex, the bit in blue, fills all three of these gaps, and
| since it's all underground it's out of sight and didn't require
| demolishing entire neighborhoods like previous 1970s-era plans
| did. And having driven through the newly opened interchange
| yesterday, I don't really buy all the "confusing" whining either:
| follow the signs and it'll get you where you want to go, you
| don't need to worry about 15 other tunnels going in other
| directions.
|
| The usual argument against building more roads is that they just
| induce demand and immediately jam up again. This is why I think
| the high tolls are a feature, not a bug: they ensure people will
| only use the roads when the time savings pays off. (Although I do
| wish Sydney would bring in Singapore-style dynamic road pricing
| instead of flat fare that means the tunnels are sitting around
| empty on Sundays.)
|
| What you _can_ criticize WestConnex for is the corruption and the
| opportunity cost: that $18B could 've bought a lot of other
| things too. But on the upside, Sydney is finally getting serious
| about metro and light rail, so things are looking up on that
| front too.
| neurotech1 wrote:
| Just in case anyone hits a paywall.
|
| https://archive.ph/M32VG
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(page generated 2023-11-26 23:01 UTC)