[HN Gopher] Nvidia sued for stealing trade secrets: blunder show...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Nvidia sued for stealing trade secrets: blunder showed rival
       company's code
        
       Author : bookofjoe
       Score  : 166 points
       Date   : 2023-11-25 19:25 UTC (3 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.engadget.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.engadget.com)
        
       | UberFly wrote:
       | One of the employees had his previous employers' code. There will
       | have to be proof that Nvidia even knew about it for this to go
       | anywhere beyond the employee.
        
         | juunpp wrote:
         | I am positive Nvidia has no part in this. A corporation of this
         | size is severely allergic to foreign proprietary code and would
         | not risk the lawsuit. Sounds more like this individual forgot
         | to read the memo on IP, and the article says he was already
         | sued by the German courts for prior misconduct anyway.
         | 
         | Kind of reminds me of the guys who do personal stuff on their
         | work laptop and then get the entire company pwned. Do people
         | not read the fucking manual anymore?
        
           | alistairSH wrote:
           | Anymore? People have never RTFM.
        
         | mcpackieh wrote:
         | What does it mean for "Nvidia to know" something? Does it never
         | count as a "corporation knowing" unless the executives are
         | aware of it? Obviously this cannot be the standard by which
         | companies are held accountable.
        
           | IshKebab wrote:
           | It's pretty clear what he means. He means that the managers
           | and executives are ok with stealing code.
        
             | mcpackieh wrote:
             | How many managers need to be in-the-loop with the theft
             | before we can fairly say "the corporation knows"? As far as
             | I'm concerned, even if no managers are aware of it, they
             | _should_ have been aware of it (it 's their job to know
             | what their reports are doing) so the corporation should be
             | liable for the theft. Otherwise it's trivial for everybody
             | to play dumb and turn a blind eye to what's going on.
        
               | ohyes wrote:
               | The magic number is 1 manager.
        
               | Xelynega wrote:
               | Yea "they were too big to know something illegal was
               | going on" is a narrative that benefits these large
               | companies while ensuring any individuals or small
               | companies that do the same see the full force of the law.
        
               | IshKebab wrote:
               | 2
        
       | almost_usual wrote:
       | > Moniruzzaman allegedly gave his personal email unauthorized
       | access to Valeo's systems to steal "tens of thousands of files"
       | and 6GB of source code shortly after that development.
        
       | latchkey wrote:
       | dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38363361
        
         | gremlinsinc wrote:
         | it is... but there's apparently a lot more discussion on this
         | thread so maybe that one should be rolled into this one...
        
       | pritambaral wrote:
       | TFA makes it sound as if the entirety of the blame can be placed
       | on one employee. Sure, his actions do seem to support that view,
       | but then again, Nvidia did hire him precisely for his previous
       | experience at this rival company, on the very same project that
       | the two companies were partnered on, which is the same project
       | that Nvidia hired him for.
       | 
       | There is no argument to be made that Nvidia wasn't aware he'd be
       | coming with secrets. The argument that that's precisely why he
       | was hired, OTOH, is looking very strong.
        
         | juunpp wrote:
         | > Nvidia did hire him precisely for his previous experience at
         | this rival company, on the very same project that the two
         | companies were partnered on, which is the same project that
         | Nvidia hired him for.
         | 
         | Yes, this happens all the time.
         | 
         | > There is no argument to be made that Nvidia wasn't aware he'd
         | be coming with secrets.
         | 
         | This is not a logical conclusion from the above. Hiring for the
         | exp is fine. Hiring for the trade secrets obviously is not. No
         | serious company would do the latter, esp a company the size of
         | Nvidia.
        
           | devmor wrote:
           | >No serious company would do the latter
           | 
           | Of course, as we all know, large companies never take risks
           | against the law and can always be trusted.
        
             | takinola wrote:
             | Risk is always balanced against reward. I doubt Nvidia is
             | culpable here not because I have some strong belief in
             | their morality but because I trust they would not take
             | stupid tradeoffs.
        
               | Retric wrote:
               | The exposure was unexpected so the risk was likely
               | perceived as low.
               | 
               | That said, the discovery process could clear NVIDA.
        
               | actionfromafar wrote:
               | That puts a lot of faith in a lot employees.
        
               | margalabargala wrote:
               | IMO this is more of a "don't ask don't tell" thing. I'm
               | sure there was never an explicit agreement that the
               | employee would bring trade secrets, but they can promise
               | to be able to build for Nvidia what was built at the last
               | company, and Nvidia could say "yes I want that", and not
               | audit the new employee's dev environment.
        
               | FirmwareBurner wrote:
               | _> IMO this is more of a "don't ask don't tell" thing._
               | 
               | I assure you isn't. If your company (in the law abiding
               | west) has any suspicion you're using another company's
               | illegally obtained proprietary IP, they won't see you as
               | some hero doing God's work and put you on the promotion
               | track wile closing a blind eye to what you're doing, but
               | they immediately ask you to delete everything and every
               | trace related to that.
               | 
               | Foreign IP is radioactive and they don't want to get sued
               | because you're bringing some source code and PDFs from
               | their competitor, which might not even be that useful for
               | them anyway.
               | 
               | There were even cases of companies ratting out their
               | employees they found using IP they stolen from their
               | previous employers and getting them arrested, because if
               | you stole IP from their competitor what's stopping you
               | from also stealing from them?
               | 
               |  _> not audit the new employee's dev environment_
               | 
               | Audit how? Against what? Stolen foreign source code you
               | don't have? That's just not realistically possible to
               | audit every employees work and accurately determine if
               | they are or not reusing source code they stolen form a
               | competitor, especially if the employee doing this is
               | careful to change or redact what he's checking in.
               | 
               | Only thing you can audit is against FOSS code that is
               | public, but not if it's stolen proprietary code and the
               | employee made sure to not check-in anything giving away
               | the origin of the original IP holder. They didn't catch
               | this guy until he got sloppy and made this huge blunder.
               | 
               | You can never secure everything and audit everyone,
               | especially if you want people to get any work done and
               | not feel violated, so everything boils down to trusting
               | employees they won't steal from you, and trusting the
               | legal framework and law enforcement they'll do their job
               | when in need, so you just have everyone sign NDAs and
               | hope for the best.
        
           | winocm wrote:
           | A thought that came to me recently in the shower: Isn't all
           | knowledge effectively based on previous knowledge, and by
           | extension, experience?
           | 
           | i.e: A programmer knows how to do X, leaves a company to do
           | Y, where Y is in the same field of work as X. Doesn't X still
           | affect the programmer on a subconscious level and henceforth,
           | their thoughts indirectly?
        
             | jfim wrote:
             | You can bring your expertise in X without the source code
             | that does X. The former is legal, the latter is not.
        
             | FirmwareBurner wrote:
             | Bringing knowledge is one thing, which is legal, but
             | stealing source code and design files from your employer to
             | copy it to the systems of their competitor where you now
             | work is a completely different thing which is illegal.
             | 
             | Companies want your knowledge, not you bringing proprietary
             | IP from their competitor to work, as they know that's a
             | very expensive lawsuit waiting to happen.
        
               | wombatpm wrote:
               | But what if I have an idemic memory?
        
               | FirmwareBurner wrote:
               | Then you'd be able to draw and type out everything from
               | scratch directly on your employer's PC and not have to
               | download it via USB drives or email, like this guy did.
        
               | unethical_ban wrote:
               | Then congratulations, you're able to ~~excel~~ exfil more
               | data.
               | 
               | We live in an imperfect world and solve problems as best
               | we can.
        
               | anonymouskimmer wrote:
               | Then copyright comes in to play. You should have been
               | taught how to avoid plagiarism in school. Use those
               | techniques to reimplement. These techniques involve more
               | than just using synonyms and rephrasing.
        
             | kmeisthax wrote:
             | This is the "inevitable disclosure" argument - AKA the idea
             | that the experience _is_ the secret, and thus nobody should
             | ever be allowed to switch employers ever again.
             | 
             | For various reasons (notably, the fact that slavery is
             | illegal), we don't accept this in general. You have to show
             | that secrets were _copied in full_. Employees cannot
             | memorize millions of lines of source, they can only
             | memorize vague architectural details that would be easily
             | reverse engineered by competitors. If you want to own those
             | vague details, get a patent, or shut up.
        
               | throwaway914 wrote:
               | In theory, one can memorize a great deal.. I do agree
               | with you, though.
        
               | whatshisface wrote:
               | Memorizing a sizable fraction of Windows source code so
               | you can take it to Apple sounds like the most pointless
               | and difficult heist imaginable!
        
           | zik wrote:
           | > No serious company would do the latter
           | 
           | It happens literally all the time:
           | 
           | [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/aug/27/anthon
           | y-l...
           | 
           | [2] https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/22/23317502/xiaolang-
           | zhang-p...
           | 
           | [3] https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/former-engineer-
           | sentenced...
           | 
           | [4] https://apnews.com/article/korea-samsung-china-copycat-
           | semic...
           | 
           | [5] https://www.reuters.com/technology/twitter-may-face-
           | difficul...
        
             | beardedwizard wrote:
             | This proves individual employees routinely steal trade
             | secrets; yes, they do. It does not prove that the companies
             | they join (US public companies in the United States anyway)
             | willfully use it.
             | 
             | Think about the large scale conspiracy required to keep
             | something like that secret from an entire company.
        
           | Guthur wrote:
           | Lol are we talking about the same nvidia, they're up their
           | with the most corrupt.
        
         | takinola wrote:
         | I don't have direct knowledge of this company or the parties
         | involved but I would be highly doubtful that Nvidia would want
         | to have an employee steal the secrets of a competitor/partner.
         | In my experience, companies of this size would aggressively not
         | want tainted IP inside their companies. He would need to be
         | bringing across something as valuable as AGI, cure for cancer,
         | etc for it to be even worth considering. There are numerous
         | examples of companies being offered trade secrets of their
         | competitors and reporting it back to the FBI just so they can
         | avoid even the suspicion of stealing corporate secrets.
         | 
         | If you think about it for a second, it is kind of obvious.
         | Pretty much every technology is reproducible with the right
         | amount of talent, funding and time. Why commit a crime when you
         | can simply throw money (of which you have a lot) at the
         | problem? Responsible corporate officers know this and act
         | accordingly.
        
           | aaomidi wrote:
           | > Why commit a crime when you can simply throw money (of
           | which you have a lot) at the problem?
           | 
           | Indeed. But the stupidity of committing a crime does not
           | actually stop companies from doing so. Mainly because the
           | penalties for it are never harsh enough.
        
             | szundi wrote:
             | Stupidity in this case probably means low level employees
             | cheating for benefits and career
             | 
             | Nvidia can get out of this fairly low cost then
             | 
             | Who knows
        
               | FirmwareBurner wrote:
               | _> Stupidity in this case probably means low level
               | employees cheating for benefits and career_
               | 
               | That's most likely the case here. FFS, the guy stole 6GB
               | of proprietary data and police found the stolen design
               | files pinned on his wall at home, so the guy was fully
               | committed to his scammer role, and not just an accidental
               | "oopsie I walked out with some proprietary IP by mistake,
               | better discard it and keep this low key so nobody finds
               | out".
               | 
               | By the looks of it, this guy, most likely a
               | Bluecard(German equivalent of H1B) was just cheating and
               | stealing his way up the career chain through the
               | revolving door of the blue-chip automotive sector, until
               | he got caught.
               | 
               | Companies both big and small, never ever encourage you to
               | bring to work proprietary files and data from your
               | previous workplaces, since that's a guaranteed lawsuit as
               | these things always get out eventually.
        
           | ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
           | The company I worked for, was paranoid as hell about IP in
           | the code. They hired some source scanning firm, for a _lot_
           | of money, to continually scan our codebase.
           | 
           | They were mostly looking for GPL ( _nasty, naasssssty GPL!_ )
           | code, but they also scanned for code that couldn't be
           | accounted for in our "clean" repos. Not exactly sure how that
           | worked (or even, if it worked at all. I think they brought
           | smoke[0]).
           | 
           | [0] https://www.tell-a-tale.com/nasreddin-hodja-story-smoke-
           | sell...
        
             | andy99 wrote:
             | > nasty, naasssssty GPL!
             | 
             | What does that mean? Why would scanning for gpl code be
             | looked at badly? It presumably means a company is
             | proactively abiding by gpl licensing. The only thing better
             | would be to use gpl and share their source as well. But of
             | course it's a legit choice to just not use any gpl'd code.
             | 
             | It's probably more common to just turn a blind eye to gpl
             | code, so it's good to see companies making sure they're on
             | the right side of it.
        
               | ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
               | It was a joke.
               | 
               | I'm not a fan of "viral" licenses, and agree that, if a
               | company doesn't want to abide by the license, they should
               | not include them, but I am also not a fan of trying to
               | force others to force others, to force others, etc., _ad
               | nauseam_.
               | 
               | I tend to use MIT, which isn't always everyone's cup of
               | tea, but means that you can use my code, and it would be
               | nice to be credited, but I won't cry myself to sleep, if
               | you don't.
        
           | MertsA wrote:
           | Would Nvidia the company want to engage in this? No. Would
           | some middle manager involved in poaching this guy from the
           | competitor want to do it? I have my suspicions. It takes two
           | to tango and Nvidia didn't catch this themselves which raises
           | some red flags. How was he hired? What kind of compensation
           | was he able to negotiate? Was it well above the compensation
           | Nvidia would ordinarily pay for an engineer of his level? How
           | did he introduce the code into Nvidia's version control? Were
           | there obvious red flags about the "development" pace that
           | should have raised eyebrows during peer review?
           | 
           | I work at a big tech company and if I tried something
           | similar, I'm pretty sure it would be caught internally. Even
           | if I managed to pull it off, all it could realistically give
           | me is a foot in the door. Some sketchy hiring manager isn't
           | going to be able to just sweep some $500,000 signing bonus
           | under the rug and $100k isn't unheard of for regular
           | engineers here anyways. As far as compensation and promotion
           | opportunities afterwards it stands little chance of mattering
           | for that either. For the first few months nothing I did was
           | even used performance reviews and it's a peer driven process
           | to rate/promote engineers.
           | 
           | Combined that means that even if I wanted to do this, and I
           | found a corrupt hiring manager that wanted to play ball, I'd
           | have to sit on that IP for a few months after being hired,
           | slowly introduce it into the codebase, alter it in response
           | to peer review and to fit the new code base's coding styles,
           | etc. In the end, that would prove useful for a grand total of
           | one peer review cycle and then it's sink or swim on my own
           | merits from that point forward.
           | 
           | All that to say, yes Nvidia doesn't want this kind of thing
           | as a company, but there are still individuals who potentially
           | stand to benefit and there's a lot of opportunities for
           | Nvidia to catch this before it's accidentally shown on screen
           | to the competitor it was stolen from this far down the line.
           | I don't know much about Nvidia's corporate structure but it
           | kinda seems like they're trying to avoid finding out about it
           | rather than trying to actually prevent it.
        
         | AshamedCaptain wrote:
         | A problem here is that while the companies will generally make
         | very clear that they don't want you to have any single line of
         | code, any schematic, any drawing, anything at all from your
         | previous company; they may also expect you to bring
         | "experience" from the previous company, thereby pressuring more
         | junior employees into doing exactly that - bringing some docs
         | from the previous company - but not telling about it. Through
         | my career I have been to several meetings where everyone was,
         | notebook in hand, expecting to hear the "experience" from the
         | new guy. That is obviously as legal as it gets, but the
         | pressure for the junior employee to have kept a couple of notes
         | is there, and you'd never know.
         | 
         | i.e. I suppose no one was aware that he had this code, and it's
         | unlikely it went into nvidia's codebases or that nvidia wanted
         | it; but it also doesn't mean nvidia did not pressure the guy
         | into doing that.
        
       | redder23 wrote:
       | And they will get a slap on the wrist at best. They made billions
       | this is just peanuts.
        
         | redder23 wrote:
         | This fucking site is like Reddit, people hate facts. So
         | pathetic.
        
         | tmtvl wrote:
         | Should just give the board of directors 100 lashes. Except of
         | course if it turns out they didn't know about it, then they
         | should get 200 lashes, have their genitals chopped off, and
         | their immediate family be given 10 lashes. Just like the good
         | old days.
        
       | steponlego wrote:
       | I just avoid NVIDIA because they hate Free Software, not for any
       | other reason.
        
         | kkielhofner wrote:
         | 400 GH repos:
         | 
         | https://github.com/orgs/NVIDIA/repositories
         | 
         | Not to mention tons of other projects that live outside of the
         | main org, contributions to other projects all over the place,
         | etc.
         | 
         | So much hate for free software.
         | 
         | The "I hate Nvidia because all I know is their driver is
         | proprietary" schtick is old.
         | 
         | They crossed the $1T mark in value solely because of the almost
         | completely open source ecosystem (a large portion of which they
         | directly develop and contribute to) that runs on top of their
         | hardware and (yes, proprietary) driver.
         | 
         | They're not angels but this position is something out of
         | Slashdot circa 2005.
        
       | clnq wrote:
       | This often happens ingenuously, not out of calculated ill intent.
       | Coders will keep code snippets and thoughts in personal knowledge
       | tools like Notion, and then reuse them in different companies. Or
       | contractors will straight up copy and paste code from source
       | files of projects they worked on for different companies,
       | thinking "I wrote it, so I could write it again, but why
       | bother?", or something along those lines. People don't usually
       | brag about these things, but they do come to light in random
       | conversations.
       | 
       | This is exactly what happened here:
       | 
       | > According to Valeo's complaint, Mohammad Moniruzzaman, an
       | engineer for NVIDIA who used to work for its company, had
       | mistakenly showed its source code files on his computer as he was
       | sharing his screen during a meeting with both firms in 2022
       | 
       | In most cases, these people are asked to remove all such code
       | from the codebase and never do it again, but news about this
       | rarely reaches the executive level. Usually, there aren't clear
       | rules that it's supposed to be reported, so low level managers
       | handle it the best they can. Of course, this guy got caught in
       | very unusual circumstances.
       | 
       | It is also very unfortunate to be the software engineer who
       | notices others doing this, because it puts you in a
       | whistleblower's dilemma. The upper management does not want to be
       | implicated in this and they do not want to know. Besides,
       | informing them would definitely lead to the coder's firing. What
       | is worse, many programmers see liberal use of IP as "not a big
       | deal". So you would be perceived as causing problems for upper
       | management, and getting people fired for "petty" reasons. It can
       | sink your career in most companies if you witness this and it
       | gets out. There are laws that protect whistleblowers from being
       | let go sometimes, but it's not conducive to anyone's career
       | growth to remain in the company because they cannot be fired.
        
         | asddubs wrote:
         | what about this:
         | 
         | >Valeo said its former employee admitted to stealing its
         | software and that German police found its documentation and
         | hardware pinned on Moniruzzaman's walls when his home was
         | raided. According to Bloomberg, he was already convicted of
         | infringement of business secrets in a German court and was
         | ordered to pay EUR14,400 ($15,750) in September.
        
         | kuroguro wrote:
         | > paste code from source files of projects they worked on for
         | different companies
         | 
         | I wonder what would happen if legal action started between two
         | companies and it turned out a coder pasted code from personal
         | projects that predates both.
        
           | Crosseye_Jack wrote:
           | INAL (so take this with the pinch of salt that it comes from
           | someone just thinking out loud), but I think it would depend
           | on a number of factors such as how novel the code was, and
           | how integral the code is (just to name two factors)
           | 
           | If the code was something as simple as let's say leftpad for
           | a simple example, it could be argued that it's not the "meat"
           | of the application so those few lines can not by themselves
           | be copyrighted but the whole work (or even larger portions of
           | it) can be.
           | 
           | If it was some special sauce algorithm, it could be argued
           | under their work contract that the employee assigned
           | copyright of the code of the personal project to the first
           | employer they did the work for.
           | 
           | It also depends on the status of the employee, the contract
           | of the employee, and the jurisdiction of both
           | employee/employee.
           | 
           | A "full fledged" employee work is often deemed as the
           | companies property if done under the course of their
           | employment. A contractor in the US is about the same, however
           | in the UK a contractor by default can retain the copyright of
           | the "work product" unless stipulated otherwise in the work
           | contract (so most contracts will state that you as a
           | contractor are assigning copyright for the work you do to the
           | company).
           | 
           | So in that last case it could be argued that the coder still
           | owns the copyright but licenses the use to both parties. It
           | would then be a case of the two companies maybe suing the
           | coder for selling code they may have represented as given
           | them an exclusive license to it, but obv didn't because it
           | was licensed to multiple companies.
        
           | __turbobrew__ wrote:
           | For most contractual agreements you assign copy-write of your
           | work to your employer. So if you used your personal project
           | in work for your employer the copy-write becomes theirs.
           | 
           | My guess is that in your hypothetical scenario the first
           | company would own the IP and could sue the worker or other
           | company for infringement.
        
           | FirmwareBurner wrote:
           | _> I wonder what would happen if legal action started between
           | two companies and it turned out a coder pasted code from
           | personal projects that predates both._
           | 
           | Highly unlikely. This was no FOSS web library he was working
           | on, but some relatively cutting edge embedded automotive
           | stuff, which few people do in their free time as a side
           | project to put on github.
           | 
           | And anyway, according to most industry contracts and work
           | laws, whatever code you check in your employer's systems
           | during work hours and using work equipment, automatically now
           | becomes your employer's code which you now can't share
           | anymore.
        
         | ohyes wrote:
         | Or worse, they may just remember how they coded it last time
         | and code it the same, or only remember subconsciously and code
         | it the same without knowing.
         | 
         | Someday there will be technology to erase all memory of work
         | you did in service of your corporate overlords and you'll be
         | able to start with a true clean slate at every job.
        
           | kennethrc wrote:
           | > Someday there will be technology to erase all memory of
           | work you did in service of your corporate overlords and
           | you'll be able to start with a true clean slate at every job.
           | 
           | https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11280740
        
             | muhehe wrote:
             | Or
             | 
             | https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0338337/
        
       | mnd999 wrote:
       | Nvidia definitely don't have form for stealing trade secrets.
       | They never stole anything from SGI.
        
         | mcpackieh wrote:
         | How can you know that?
        
       | Symmetry wrote:
       | One of the generally accepted reasons why its hard to get
       | graphics companies to open source their drives has always been
       | that everybody is violating everybody else's patents. And while
       | everybody knows this making it too obvious is a legal
       | disadvantage. But I hadn't expected it was also true of
       | copyright.
        
         | FirmwareBurner wrote:
         | _> everybody is violating everybody else 's patents_
         | 
         | Violating patents is one thing, as you're only violating the
         | concept/idea, but the implementation is still up to you meaning
         | it will still be clean room design, whereas this guy also
         | blatantly copied the source code and design files which is a
         | slam dunk lawsuit, hence why no company ever wants to have
         | competitors' IP on their systems.
        
           | throwaway54_56 wrote:
           | > Violating patents is one thing, as you're only violating
           | the concept/idea, but the implementation is still up to you
           | 
           | The concept/idea is not what is patented. The patent is (or
           | should be) for the specific execution of the idea.
           | Competitors are free to implement their feature using methods
           | other that what is covered by the patent, even if the end
           | result gives the exact same functionality.
        
             | FirmwareBurner wrote:
             | _> The concept/idea is not what is patented. The patent is
             | (or should be) for the specific execution of the idea._
             | 
             | Have you ever seen patents? They rarely cover the
             | implementation details, or at most they're intentionally
             | super vague about that, most of the time it's just the
             | general idea on how the widget would work and what it does,
             | but not how to implement it technically.
        
               | throwaway54_56 wrote:
               | I have seen patents. The whole point is to share a method
               | of doing something, in return for exclusive use of that
               | method for a period of time. That's the theory, anyway.
        
               | FirmwareBurner wrote:
               | Then you misunderstood or saw too few patents.
        
               | anon373839 wrote:
               | I'm sure we'll all be glad one day that Apple shared this
               | research breakthrough:
               | 
               | https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/6/16614038/apple-
               | samsung-sl...
        
             | atq2119 wrote:
             | Idea is a pretty general term. I have a bunch of patents
             | and I would describe them all as patenting an idea (for how
             | to achieve some goal).
             | 
             | The implementation or execution of the idea usually takes
             | the form of some Verilog or some C++. That is covered by
             | copyright.
             | 
             | The patent is for the idea. Which is part of why I'm so
             | opposed to patents, not just in software. In other fields,
             | like medicine, patents are perhaps for _discoveries_ ,
             | which are IMHO similarly valuable as the execution. But
             | ideas aren't that valuable, or shouldn't be.
        
             | dctoedt wrote:
             | > _The concept /idea is not what is patented. The patent is
             | (or should be) for the specific execution of the idea.
             | Competitors are free to implement their feature using
             | methods other that what is covered by the patent, even if
             | the end result gives the exact same functionality._
             | 
             | IP lawyer here: That's a considerable (and potentially-
             | dangerous) oversimplification. What matters is whether what
             | you do comes within the _claims_ of the patent.
             | 
             | (For a more-detailed explanation, written in pseudocode-
             | like terms, see a 2010 post I did:
             | https://www.oncontracts.com/how-patent-claims-work-a-
             | variety....)
        
             | conradev wrote:
             | The specific execution of an idea is also an idea, though
             | 
             | I feel like the granularity of patents is defined more so
             | by where the frontier of knowledge is for a given domain
             | than the patent office (i.e. what is hard but also
             | valuable). But, I also haven't spent a lot of time with
             | patents
        
         | ip26 wrote:
         | Given independent invention is apparently not a defense against
         | infringement, that makes a lot of sense. I can't even imagine
         | trying to screen the codebase for that.
        
           | sokoloff wrote:
           | "Infringement" is not specific enough there. Independent
           | invention is not a defense against _patent_ infringement, but
           | is a defense against _copyright_ infringement.
        
           | kahnclusions wrote:
           | No, but a patent can be invalidated if you can show that the
           | idea is obvious to practitioners of the trade, i.e. given the
           | same problem most software engineers would arrive at the same
           | solution.
        
         | cyanydeez wrote:
         | and now we have AI violating everything.
        
       | dontupvoteme wrote:
       | _always_ refactor, rename and relib when you reuse !
        
       | gremlinsinc wrote:
       | > German police found its documentation and hardware pinned on
       | Moniruzzaman's walls when his home was raided
       | 
       | WTF actually prints out documentation? Let alone pins it to their
       | walls? I mean....seriously does anybody actually do this?
        
         | rightbyte wrote:
         | I do. I can't read any length of text on a screen. I pin stuff
         | to the wall too, of quick sheet character. Like Emacs hotkeys,
         | C operator precedence, pinouts, general specs etc.
        
           | filchermcurr wrote:
           | Same. I recently bought a Kindle Scribe (would have preferred
           | Kobo, but enh) to see if that would make it easier than
           | constant printing and shuffling papers. It's alright. Better
           | than a monitor, slightly less good than paper.
        
         | jbverschoor wrote:
         | I'd love to have a 100 inch hidpi eink wall.
        
           | WalterBright wrote:
           | So would I. But I settle for an extra monitor in portrait
           | mode, and will stick the pdf documentation in it when I'm
           | following a spec.
        
         | FirmwareBurner wrote:
         | _> WTF actually prints out documentation?_
         | 
         | Probably easier to exfiltrate confidential documents when
         | printed, rather than digitally through the company internet
         | which is logged and points straight to you.
         | 
         | If I print something confidential and take it home there's only
         | the printer logs as proof that I printed it, but no proof that
         | I also took it home (unless there's surveillance footage).
         | 
         |  _> Let alone pins it to their walls?_
         | 
         | The man is proud of his work, wants to see it daily for
         | motivation.
        
         | AndroTux wrote:
         | Germans. We love printing, faxing and scanning stuff.
        
           | FirmwareBurner wrote:
           | _> Germans. _
           | 
           | > _Mohammad Moniruzzaman_
           | 
           | Very German.
        
       | siva7 wrote:
       | Never share your screen, only a window!
        
       | jonplackett wrote:
       | Was hoping they stolen CUDA from AMD
        
       | aunty_helen wrote:
       | > Too many requests -- error 999.
       | 
       | Did engadget get the hug of death???
        
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