[HN Gopher] The new Paris metro
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The new Paris metro
Author : TheIronYuppie
Score : 119 points
Date : 2023-11-25 05:45 UTC (17 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.forbes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.forbes.com)
| johncoltrane wrote:
| The exhibition mentioned in the article [1] is well worth a
| visit.
|
| [1] https://www.societedugrandparis.fr/fabrique-du-metro
| ggm wrote:
| I mainly know the older, shallow line inner city routes. I've
| used the existing ?SNCF? Hookups to Orly, CDG and the Thalys
| North into Amsterdam, it works well. Paris was always an exemplar
| for modernisation in a time where the O.G. London underground was
| a bit moribund (rubber wheels) but retention of the carnet system
| beyond its life and a surge in London transport investment rather
| upended things.
|
| This is a huge expansion. Being brave enough to build rings is
| great: most capital cities obsess with spokes to existing hubs,
| or like the Elizabeth line do a single slash across.
|
| New York should read and weep.
| thriftwy wrote:
| Weird that it does not have the route map of the expansions -
| see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Paris_Express
|
| Speaking about rings, Moscow metro now has three of these.
| mananaysiempre wrote:
| Moscow's situation is funny in part because a number of
| diagonal slashes is closer to what the city needs (the
| central parts are probably an order of magnitude over design
| capacity during rush hour and essentially never under it),
| but the plan for those got turned into a ring because
| apparently the infrastructure to turn trains around at the
| ends was too difficult to build.
|
| The other new ring is a fairly old preexisting train line
| that used to be cargo-only; it had the potential to be great,
| but unfortunately the ridiculously long connection times have
| made the real thing somewhat niche--if both your origin and
| your destination aren't on it, the ten to fifteen minutes'
| walk will likely make the result worse than just going
| through the center. And two connections are just never worth
| it.
|
| (There's a whole story behind how building stupid useless
| connections came to be viewed as a virtue in Moscow transport
| planning--look up "Vykhino effect". Doesn't make the result
| any less shit, though.)
| thriftwy wrote:
| I guess you've not experienced the Metro (and Vykhino
| effect) around 2003 if you think it is over capacity _now_.
| It is a cakewalk now.
|
| I, too, dislike the new connections, and the lack thereof,
| but the speed with which the new lines sprung up is a
| marvel.
| unflxw wrote:
| Aren't the diagonals also being built? Primarily, if I
| recall correctly, by reusing existing passenger rails
| corridors and connecting their services instead of
| terminating them at the main stations.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Central_Diameters
| xkekjrktllss wrote:
| > _New York should read and weep_
|
| an understatement
| colordrops wrote:
| LA should read and jump off a bridge
| jseliger wrote:
| L.A. has actually been much better than NYC at building new
| transit infrastructure over the last 40 years:
| https://archive.ph/sbTkC. NYC, though, is obviously
| starting from a much higher base. L.A. should also be
| working harder to build more faster, but it's not the
| laughing stock it once was.
| rob74 wrote:
| The rubber wheel metros are mostly a result of lobbying by
| Michelin. They're an interesting curiosity, but I think there
| is a reason why they haven't really caught on outside of
| France...
| uxp8u61q wrote:
| They cost more to maintain, but they allow greater
| acceleration and deceleration and produce less
| noise/vibration than metal wheels.
|
| And Michelin must have a phenomenal lobbying team if they
| managed this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-
| tyred_metro#List_of_sys... (In particular, "didn't catch on
| outside France" is, well, just plain wrong.)
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| One (or more?) of Paris metro lines is rubber wheel, the one
| up to la defense, rubber is simply better at climbing hills.
| The ouchy line in Lausanne is also rubber for the same reason
| (since it climbs from lake geneva up and up).
|
| Unless you go with a rack railroad, or maybe a cable way, you
| are only climbing hills with rubber.
| creer wrote:
| Most use rubber wheels
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| According to wiki, just Lines 1, 4, 6, 11, and 14. So
| that leaves at least 9 that don't (assuming continuous
| numbering).
| creer wrote:
| So they say indeed! Interesting! I have lived there long
| enough and didn't notice. They are all pretty quiet. To
| be fair, it's possible to run on rubber and still mess it
| up, noise-wise, like BART does with gusto.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| According to wiki, the only light rail running on rubber
| is the airport's AirTrain. No mention of BART running on
| rubber at all, nor on its own wiki page.
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-
| tyred_metro#List_of_s...
| warrenmiller wrote:
| the Taipei Metro Brown Line runs on rubber wheels too
| agazso wrote:
| Mexico city too has rubber wheels on some lines
| speed_spread wrote:
| Montreal metro uses rubber wheels. It's the smoothest train
| ride you'll get in all of North America.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Rings kind of suck. You have to go around to get anywhere, and
| so you spend a lot more time on your subway getting home.
| hamilyon2 wrote:
| I was quite surprised to know there will be new major line and
| apparently minor hub station very near from where I live.
| op00to wrote:
| Sweet! When do you think it will be ready by you?
| rayiner wrote:
| It's sad to realize that such a project would be completely
| impossible in America now. We've become the Microsoft of
| countries.
| colordrops wrote:
| Due to the cost of foreign policy and lobbying, both by
| domestic corporations and foreign nations.
| rayiner wrote:
| Our foreign policy experiments are a relatively small
| percentage of our GDP. It's not like the money isn't there
| for these projects. Even with the foreign wars, the US still
| spends significantly less of GDP on public services than
| other developed countries.
| candiddevmike wrote:
| Think of how much rail Afghanistan and Iraq could've bought
| us. Amtrak gets something like 4 billion/year, think of what
| 2 trillion could've done...
| contingencies wrote:
| Great analogy. Haven't seen a successful acquisition, only lots
| of failed ones.
| taude wrote:
| github failed, how?
| tptacek wrote:
| Microsoft is one of the most successful corporations in the
| world, and is widely considered to be undergoing a sort of
| renaissance under Nadella, so while the intent of this put-down
| is clear, its expression is pretty clumsy.
|
| Couldn't you just say or link to something concrete to make
| your point instead? The cost problems of large American
| projects are incredibly well covered in the media; you're a
| trivial Google search away from lots of great material here.
| felipelemos wrote:
| Successful to the shareholders, not the users.
| kevincox wrote:
| Microsoft's goal is to make the shareholders money. So that
| it success to it.
| pkulak wrote:
| And success or not has nothing to do with OP's point.
| kortilla wrote:
| That's what makes a successful company though.
| pjerem wrote:
| Well, by that reasoning, US are a successful country.
|
| But when you are not the shareholder but the user /
| citizen, you have the right to decide what "successful"
| means to you.
| rat9988 wrote:
| Citizens should be shareholders, but let's not stretch
| the analogy.
| hollerith wrote:
| The US is a successful country; try to invade us and see
| :) Or try to outspend us :)
| rayiner wrote:
| It's been unsuccessful at building high-quality, user-facing
| products. Which is where I was going with the analogy. The US
| makes plenty of money too, but falls short in building things
| you can point to.
| jnwatson wrote:
| 68 new stations in the Paris area and it took forty years to get
| a Metro stop at DC's biggest airport.
| quasse wrote:
| Meanwhile Seattle is planning to maybe-kinda-sorta begrudgingly
| start building one single light rail line to the west side of
| the city in the next few decades. Maybe it'll be ready by the
| time I retire.
| wombat-man wrote:
| As someone who visits Seattle regularly it is painful seeing
| this roll out gradually.
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| Until a few years ago there were some dumb limitations for
| federal infrastructure funding that connected trains to
| airports
| ytdytvhxgydvhh wrote:
| Or we still haven't, depending on how you decide which is the
| biggest airport. BWI had slightly more passengers than Dulles
| last year; Dulles had slightly more flights than BWI.
| alistairSH wrote:
| BWI doesn't have subway, but it does have light rail service
| to Baltimore and Amtrak service to DC.
| cpursley wrote:
| Just wait till you read how many (stunning) stations and lines
| of track in highly sanctioned (and supposedly beyond corrupt)
| Russia has laid in Moscow, it's depressing. If they can do it
| on time and under budget, why can't America?
| selectodude wrote:
| Pretty sure a decent amount of the Moscow metro was built
| with convict labor under Stalin.
| twelve40 wrote:
| Pretty sure the OP is referring to the more relevant fact
| that in the last decade they've built over 100 new stations
| and continue to do so at a rate of about 12 new stations
| every year, no slave labor involved.
| csomar wrote:
| Stalin labor is able to travel in time?
| gwervc wrote:
| The airport line from and to the city (RER B) is literally the
| worst I ever took anywhere in the world. Two issues: there's no
| room or equipment at people's height for luggages which is
| infuriating. And it's shared with the local people going to and
| from the North suburbs, making it very crowded at times. I
| don't understand why there isn't a dedicated line, or at least
| a dedicated express train going on the line.
| uxp8u61q wrote:
| If the RER B is "literally the worst [you] ever took anywhere
| in the world", then you mustn't have taken public
| transportation to the airport in many places. At least the
| RER B... exists! There are so many places where the airport
| can only be reached via car or taxi, it's insane. Many other
| places have just a bus. Usually a terrible bus.
| jimmywetnips wrote:
| Exactly. I was going to say the same exact thing.
|
| Anyone else ever experienced the public transportless
| hellscape of Cancun airport? Where a short ride into the
| city is a cool 75 usd, rideshare is chased off by the
| cartels, and the walk to the highway to take a collectivo
| bus with incomprehensible route numbers is 1.5 miles away
| in sweltering jungle heat?
|
| Or how about Tampa, Asheville, Austin or any other medium
| sized us airport, where train transport doesn't exist at
| all
|
| How about Boston Logan which is only connected to the main
| Metro lines by a crappy bus that will add a nice 30 minutes
| and luggage heaving to your journey
|
| I literally love the rer. It can be much shittier lol
| wkat4242 wrote:
| And those suburbs are not populated with the nicest people,
| it didn't really feel very safe either.
| se0 wrote:
| Another project is the CDG Express :
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDG_Express
| seszett wrote:
| > _I don 't understand why there isn't a dedicated line_
|
| Obviously, because it would take away capacity for the
| regular users?
|
| It's among the most heavily used lines _in the world_ and
| tourists are probably a single digit percent of users, or
| less, so whatever funds available are better used to increase
| global capacity than to provide a better experience for a few
| people taking the plane.
| _Wintermute wrote:
| The number of times I witnessed tourist's suitcases being
| swiped from the RER B as the doors were closing was just
| depressing.
| bambax wrote:
| > _five years after then-President Nicholas Sarkozy_...
|
| "Nicolas".
| lol768 wrote:
| This is a cool infrastructure project, but they really need to
| sort out ticketing.. Everyone else has adopted contactless EMV
| with capping, but in Paris they're only introducing the
| equivalent to London's Oyster (which frankly is a legacy
| ticketing system in itself and was introduced back in June 2003;
| over _twenty years ago_ ) now in the form of Navigo Easy for
| tourists. When I last visited, the t+ tickets were paper
| magstripe tickets that I could only buy using a terminal which
| required chip+pin and didn't have a proper touch screen but some
| weird roller you had to use..
| paganel wrote:
| Those paper tickets are great for anonymity. In most of the
| cases those contactless thingies give your identity away each
| time you use them.
| seabass-labrax wrote:
| Paper tickets might be good for anonymity, but that can't be
| guaranteed. I haven't used the ones for Paris, but many have
| a unique code printed on the ticket that could be linked with
| the bank that you used to purchase it through. One would need
| to buy the ticket with cash to guarantee anonymity, and that
| itself only with the assumption that 'out-of-band'
| information isn't obtained (for example, from surveillance
| cameras or unique identifiers on the cash).
|
| It is possible to have fully digital ticketing with complete
| anonymity (again, assuming no external surveillance) using
| zero-knowledge proofs. As far as I'm aware, no such systems
| have been implemented for ticketing yet, but rapid progress
| is being made in implementing these for general-purpose
| digital identity situations.
|
| There's also the much more pedestrian^ option, used for
| instance in Brussels, where the transport company simply
| promises not to track individuals even when it would be
| possible for them to do just that. That said, in Brussels I
| personally got the impression that a large proportion of
| passengers did not present tickets when entering a bus or
| tram, and indeed the Brussels Metro trains don't require that
| anyway. Thus tracking of individuals' movements would be
| quickly thwarted by apathy on the part of passengers!
|
| ^: not the _most_ pedestrian option, naturally.
| gwervc wrote:
| > that I could only buy using a terminal which required
| chip+pin
|
| Some machine have contactless payment support, it's indicated
| on them. Sure it would be better to have more but the option
| exists at last, and I guess more equipment will be upgraded in
| the future. If anything this is the smallest issue with the
| subway and the capital in general.
| glandium wrote:
| Navigo has had an anonymous version for at least 15 years.
| Navigo itself is older than Oyster.
| lol768 wrote:
| And how long have you been able to load daily tickets?
| uxp8u61q wrote:
| So what, this is about your grievance that stopped being
| relevant back in 2019?
| lol768 wrote:
| My point is that the entire offering has lagged behind
| what I'd expect in terms of ticketing from such a major
| European city. TfL don't even do a particularly good job
| at what they do, but they at least get some of the basics
| right.
|
| Maybe Paris will support iPhones properly and get
| contactless working in 2030, at this rate?
| gryn wrote:
| T+ ticket are officially phased out right now, but for some
| reason still work. You can install their app to buy and use
| electronic tickets or a temporary card where you can store
| electronic ticket.
| uxp8u61q wrote:
| The app is incompatible with tons of phones. I have a pixel
| 4a, hardly an obscure or ancient phone, and for some reason
| it's not compatible with the app.
| jakub_g wrote:
| Yup this is really bizarre. No iOS support at all, and
| Google Pixels only from Pixel 5. (for storing the tickets
| on the device).
| progval wrote:
| And they block rooted phones
| lol768 wrote:
| > You can install their app to buy and use electronic tickets
|
| Does this work on iPhone now?
| jeromenerf wrote:
| Early 2024 :/
| ThePowerOfFuet wrote:
| You can use an iPhone to reload a Navigo card, but you
| cannot use it by itself.
| stouset wrote:
| Was that recent? I was in Paris in August and I still had to
| buy paper t+ tickets to ride the metro. It felt very
| outdated.
|
| I live in SF and travel regularly to NYC and both of those
| just let me tap my phone and go. It honestly felt weird for
| the US to be ahead of a major European city in this way.
| pjerem wrote:
| It depends on the station. Some stopped to sell tickets and
| just sell refillable cards.
|
| But you can use cards, ticket, or phone in any station.
|
| The only thing you can't use, which, in 2023 is pretty
| stupid, are payments cards (so neither Apple Pay and Google
| Pay). They even had a long fight with Apple for years to
| get full access to the NFC API instead of going with just
| payment cards.
|
| Ironically, there are a lot of other cities in France that
| are compatible with payment cards, but not Paris.
|
| I can imagine that it's not the same scale to upgrade Paris
| ticketing vs the smaller cities but since they've done a
| major overhaul anyway ...
| xkekjrktllss wrote:
| The NYC metro pass system has all of those exact same issues. I
| find it frankly absurd to be nitpicking such details in the
| face of such an accomplishment.
| lol768 wrote:
| > The NYC metro pass system has all of those exact same
| issues
|
| I wouldn't expect anything else from an American attempt at a
| public transport (sorry, "public transit") system,
| unfortunately. Sadly it seems like a very car-centric culture
| has taken hold in the states which has stifled investment and
| innovation when it comes to public transport.
|
| OMNY will eventually fix things using tech 'borrowed' from
| Oyster when it's fully rolled out (which must be soon), but
| until then it seems like a poor system.
|
| > I find it frankly absurd to be nitpicking such details in
| the face of such an accomplishment.
|
| The whole customer proposition is important; not just the
| infrastructure. I am sure the Elizabeth Line in London
| wouldn't have seen the adoption it has (well in excess of
| predictions) without an easy-to-use fares system.
| milkshakes wrote:
| what? omni is everywhere and it works great. transfers,
| weekly caps (slightly less benefits than a weekly pass but
| still). what is your issue with nyc subway exactly?
| wombat-man wrote:
| NYC now accepts tap cards and apple pay if you want to avoid
| the metro card. It also stops charging you after your 12th
| ride of the calendar week
| wenc wrote:
| Not sure what you mean. OMNY has contactless and fare
| capping.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMNY
|
| I use Apple Express Transit on my Apple Watch with the NY
| MTA. I just tap my wrist and the turnstile unlocks.
|
| Also it caps at $34 in a 7 day period.
|
| https://new.mta.info/fares/omny-fare-capping
| maeln wrote:
| You can use your phone with nfc now.
| jonathantf2 wrote:
| We went for a week in February and couldn't find a single place
| that had the Navigo Easy cards in stock - the paper tickets
| were awful and wouldn't work straight out of the vending
| machine, ended up wasting a lot of money.
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| They also need to simplify the tickets structure. It is great
| from obvious which ticket to buy when you are outside of Paris.
|
| And when I write "they", it is from the perspective of a native
| of Versailles who still has to think hard when looking at the
| web site in his own language. I cannot imagine for a tourist.
|
| Maybe this has improved (I hope so) but everytime someone
| visited, I had to do a new PhD in ticketology.
| op00to wrote:
| Jealous. There were great "interurban" lines (sort of like light
| rail of today) all up and down the US East Coast and beyond. At
| one point you could ride these little local trains on a journey
| from Philadelphia to New York! Talk about a connected metropolis!
| thriftwy wrote:
| At one point (for quite long actually) you could ride local
| trains to go from St. Petersburg to Vladivostok. It would take
| a month, though.
| hairy_callous wrote:
| You can still easily do this to get from Philly to NYC. Septa
| to Trenton, get off and switch to NJT to Penn Station. Runs
| hourly and costs ~$1. It does take a bit longer than Amtrak,
| though + Amtrak can be purchased for ~$20 if you time it right
| hackandthink wrote:
| A nice map:
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20180806025050/https://media-med...
| notpushkin wrote:
| Looks like Constantine Konovalov has some work to do now:
| https://metromap.fr/en
| Qiu_Zhanxuan wrote:
| I live in Paris. Just got a 200EUR fine coming back from a
| running session. Beware, RATP rule enforcers are now dressed as
| civilians and targets gullible individuals who breaks stupid
| rules, (mistook my pass with my credit card when i tried to
| check-in : 50EUR for forgetting my pass, and 150EUR for entering
| an quasi-empty bus by the middle door). I see why RATP resorted
| to racketeering after all this over-budget fiasco. Hope it's
| worth it.
| ThePowerOfFuet wrote:
| You didn't have your Navigo with you, but you blame them for
| fining you?
| moritzwarhier wrote:
| As a German, living in a car-centric city with egregious and
| never-finished public transport projects in rich districts, but
| no functioning _public transport_ , this makes me envious. And it
| seems very well-thought out, focusing on connecting suburbs.
|
| Please, let this project finish successfully and inspire others
| to quit the madness of resource waste that is car scapes.
| 3475235656 wrote:
| This article reminds us what Europe was just 20 years ago.
| Ambitious infrastructure and artistic projects. Fast forward to
| 2023, decline and collapse trends have taken over.
| hasoleju wrote:
| Train connections are a wonderful thing. They really shrink the
| space between two locations like no other transportation type.
| Just hop in, read a book or newspaper and suddenly you are
| somewhere else.
|
| For me it's a one hour car ride to the next major city (in
| southern Germany). With the train it takes 25 minutes.
| rayiner wrote:
| In the US, train rides typically take anywhere from 1.5x-3x as
| long as driving.
| rcMgD2BwE72F wrote:
| What a backward country.
| thatfrenchguy wrote:
| I mean, that's what happens on lines that haven't been
| upgraded since the late 19th century.
| tomcam wrote:
| They added 120 miles of track and 68 stations in seven years. New
| York City couldn't update a turnstile in seven years.
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(page generated 2023-11-25 23:00 UTC)