[HN Gopher] Normal Operating Sounds
___________________________________________________________________
Normal Operating Sounds
Author : mvansch
Score : 307 points
Date : 2023-11-25 04:11 UTC (18 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.tesla.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.tesla.com)
| camhart wrote:
| > Cabin Noise during Acceleration with Ludicrous Enabled
|
| This one is pretty good.
| xyst wrote:
| The sound of a teenager driving dad's midlife crisis just
| moments before smashing into the side of a building
| dclowd9901 wrote:
| I didn't hear a corvette?
| speedgoose wrote:
| So the sound of the impact is how you distinguish the sound
| of an old corvette with an automatic transmission and the
| sound of a GM powered boat as both their engines are from
| the same family?
| Arson9416 wrote:
| Let people enjoy things :)
| golem14 wrote:
| I wonder if this from the spaceballs movie and whether they had
| to license the sound ...
| andirk wrote:
| I don't get it. OK there are sounds to let you know the car is
| falling apart constantly, but this one is ambient sound of
| people encouraging you to accelerate??
| yreg wrote:
| It's a joke. That clip is supposed to be your passengers.
| andirk wrote:
| I still don't understand. Is that a feature of the vehicle
| or not? Is this an April Fool's joke or is there a setting
| that cheers on the driver while accelerating? I see some
| individuals took insult to my question. Some of the sounds
| are pings and pops and knocks to mimic a combustable
| engine. What is this sound for?
| pavas wrote:
| It's the sound your passengers make, which is a joke.
| freediver wrote:
| Props to the person/team owning docs at Tesla. This made Tesla
| as a brand more humane in my book.
| vachina wrote:
| Thought the car would actually play that sound effect on
| Ludicrous mode.
| newaccount74 wrote:
| This is the kinda good natured fun that I really liked Tesla
| for before they announced an armored vehicle that's designed
| in a way to increase the likelihood of accidentally running
| over your kids playing in the driveway.
| sneak wrote:
| Alternately, it's designed in a way that almost all trucks
| and SUVs in the US are designed, in a way that is generally
| expected/preferred by customers who buy those vehicles.
|
| I also don't like it, but it's not Tesla's fault that
| that's where the market is. I've heard from so many foolish
| people who don't understand physics that they feel safer
| driving a big heavy vehicle and being up high.
|
| The armor has nothing to do with the height and sight
| lines; it's also not anything specific to the Cybertruck.
| Even midsize SUVs now are so high up and boxy that you
| can't see in front of the front bumper. I was in an
| Escalade or Expedition or Tahoe or something the other day
| on the way to JFK and noticed that the center console
| screen has an option to view a front-bumper-cam. It's nuts.
|
| If this is truly a problem that needs affirmative fixing,
| it seems that auto industry regulation (which is already
| mandating cellular transceivers in vehicles, so it is
| definitely in scope) would be the place to address this.
| Expecting market participants to kneecap themselves in the
| face of clear market demand (especially whilst already
| fighting the risky and uphill battle that is EV adoption)
| is not fair or realistic.
|
| IMO it could be covered in giant sharp stainless steel
| hedgehog spikes and be nicknamed the Childslayer and it's
| probably still less dangerous to our society than something
| that burns petrochemicals. If you want to regulate
| something for safety, ban the sale of gasoline/diesel and
| the use of internal combustion engines.
| hennell wrote:
| There's an interesting bit in car guys vs bean counters
| where the author recalls the new regulations mandating a
| smaller average size car. US manufacturers had to make
| much smaller cars to lower their average. But US
| customers just weren't interested. They wanted big cars,
| not just new cars. Japanese manufacturers (who were
| already lower then the regulated average) stepped in and
| built new big cars.
|
| Not totally similar to your point as safety regs would be
| more equal, but it was an interesting revelation to me
| (especially as here in the EU small cars are much more
| desirable) that really market demands are as much of a
| driver of these things as manufacturer production.
|
| Regulation has to be in the right place too, ideally
| giving the real trade off to the consumer. (the book
| suggests that if America taxed fuel more like the rest of
| the world so you didn't have such cheap gas, car
| efficiency would become a much bigger selling point,
| leading to more demand for smaller less ridiculous cars).
| But I suspect that would change less the demand for low
| gas cars, and more the demand for low gas tax
| politicians.
| armada651 wrote:
| It's an arms race though, most people prefer bigger cars
| because it makes them feel safer from all of the other
| big cars on the road.
|
| Also it was actually the gas efficiency regulation that
| started the arms race, because big trucks were exempt
| from the regulations so car manufacturers started pushing
| more people towards buying trucks instead of sedans.
| two_handfuls wrote:
| Right. So a good step to improve safety would be to apply
| the same rules to trucks and cars.
| scubbo wrote:
| > I've heard from so many foolish people who don't
| understand physics that they feel safer driving a big
| heavy vehicle and being up high
|
| Can you elaborate on this a little? I only took Physics
| up to University level so maybe I'm missing something,
| but - why _wouldn't_ that make you safer in the case of a
| collision? My naive assumption is that it would:
|
| a) decrease effective force on the passengers (greater
| mass of car => less acceleration from a given collision
| force => less force transferred to passenger)
|
| b) make the car less likely to flip (assuming that the
| increased mass offsets the extra instability from the
| height of the vehicle - which, since the chassis is
| likely heavier on the bottom than the large hollow areas
| at the top, I think is likely)
|
| c) move the passengers (slightly, but non-negligibly) out
| of the direct line of impact
|
| "Driving a big heavy vehicle and being up high" might
| well make you _more likely_ to have a collision, meaning
| that you total aggregate chance of injury goes up even as
| "chance of injury, given a collision" goes down - but
| that's more about misunderstanding statistics than
| physics, as well as selfishly prioritizing personal
| safety over societal safety.
|
| Thank you for helping me be less foolish!
| sneak wrote:
| It doesn't make the car less likely to flip except when
| the mass is extremely concentrated at the bottom (such as
| in a Tesla where there is a huge dense battery pack in
| the bottom). The COG is much higher on SUVs and trucks
| than it is on passenger cars. It has improved, but it is
| still bad.
|
| Being out of the "line of impact" is mostly irrelevant
| when you are going 80mph and the vehicle hits something.
| That kinetic energy is going somewhere.
|
| Large/heavy vehicles are less maneuverable and take
| longer to stop because of their increased kinetic energy
| at cruise. In collisions the massive added weight means
| they have _much_ more energy that needs to go somewhere
| at time of impact.
|
| The passenger safety of a car in a collision is not
| determined by which vehicle is still more car-shaped
| after the wreck, otherwise the bigger and heavier your
| vehicle, the better off you'd be.
|
| Additionally, pushing around the big and heavy chassis
| uses way more energy unnecessarily, which is not crash
| safety related, but is still very unsafe due to the fact
| that burning petrochemicals is currently in the process
| of literally destroying our civilization. You might not
| crash, but you _will_ burn.
| 93po wrote:
| Tesla cars, including the Cybertruck, are much less likely
| to run over things, including kids, than most every other
| vehicle. There are distance sensors around the entire
| perimeter of the car that give you a visual and audio queue
| for when you're close to stuff, and there's cameras that
| also cover 360 degrees that show pedestrians and other
| obstacles on the navigation screen.
|
| The people at Tesla have a lot of fun even with the
| Cybertruck: why aren't the windows also bullet proof to
| small arms? Well, because it'd have to be really thick, and
| we recommend instead that you simply duck when shot at.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > There are distance sensors around the entire perimeter
| of the car
|
| Those have been gone a while. Just cameras now, and a lot
| of the functionality we had on earlier Teslas still lags
| behind on the newer camera-only cars.
|
| If you want ultrasonic sensors and full 360 degree
| camera, you have to get something more advanced, like a
| Nissan Rogue. No joke ;-). Tesla does not offer this
| ability.
| seadan83 wrote:
| > "Tesla cars, including the Cybertruck, are much less
| likely to run over things, including kids, than most
| every other vehicle"
|
| Citation/data needed. For a vehicle that does not have
| millions of miles in test or production usage, with all
| respect, this is a marketing statement. (Millions of
| miles is even low, a few hundred or thousand vehicles hit
| those numbers in no time)
|
| One could say the truck is designed in that way.. but
| again, citation needed.
|
| > There are distance sensors around the entire perimeter
| of the car that give you a visual and audio queue for
| when you're close to stuff, and there's cameras that also
| cover 360 degrees that show pedestrians and other
| obstacles on the navigation screen.
|
| Are the majority of pedestrian collisions while backing
| up at low speed? Does this capability have anything to do
| with pedestrian safety vs not backing up into a mailbox?
| Will these cameras move the needle in any way for
| pedestrian fatalities after being struck by a vehicle?
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| It is very Elon
| maxlin wrote:
| *Friends not included with purchase of Tesla(r) Vehicle
| danappelxx wrote:
| "Cabin Noise during Acceleration with Ludicrous Enabled" was by
| far the most interesting
| rpmisms wrote:
| And also incredibly accurate. I know Teslas are commonplace
| now, but the raw acceleration of an old Model S was seriously
| something to behold.
| jeffreygoesto wrote:
| On my very first onramp I nearly totaled it under the back of
| a heavy, slow truck. I was so used to flooring the pedal to
| get up to highway speed and totally unprepared for that
| instantaneous acceleration.
| noufalibrahim wrote:
| What's the UX reason to use a chime rather than an (customisable)
| announcement?
|
| I suppose I'd get used to the alarms if I used the car but all of
| them on a page is confusing.
| bagels wrote:
| Text would take a lot longer to convey information than a short
| chime. You would also have to localize all the sounds.
| DrSAR wrote:
| "TERRAIN, TERRAIN! whoop whoop PULL UP!" -- the makers of the
| Terrain Avoidance and Warning System (TAWS) thought that this
| extra information was useful. Maybe the timing is different
| or maybe it's just cultural.
| tavavex wrote:
| Yeah, it's both an earlier development, and it also doesn't
| really apply fully. In almost all modern aircraft, aural
| alerts are only used for very dangerous situations that
| require immediate pilot action. However, there are still a
| lot of "abstract" sounds used, either where it occurs often
| (like autopilot disconnect) or where spelling it out isn't
| needed (like a generic warning or caution tone to bring
| attention to the display that describes the error)
| rootusrootus wrote:
| No localization necessary on that one, all commercial
| pilots are required to speak English.
| subroutine wrote:
| Confirmation tones are used to convey that the car registered a
| deliberate user action (e.g. a button press). For example
| whenever you press the unlock button on your key fob, it would
| quickly become annoying if the car announced "The car is now
| locked". In the case of confirmation, you know what the tone is
| signaling, because you just performed the action to create the
| tone (and don't need a lecture about it).
|
| Mildly abrasive 'alert' tones are preferred for warnings over
| announcements because alerts typically require immediate
| action. You could follow the alert tone by an announcement but
| this is typically unnecessary because the the first time you
| hear it, the tone will be seared into your memory (e.g. you are
| messing with the radio and suddenly hear the lane departure
| warning or forward collision warning). And you really don't
| need to distinguish between them - they all basically mean
| "immediately allocate all cognitive resources towards driving
| this death machine safely".
| dTP90pN wrote:
| This does not account for inattentional deafness, which is
| why there ought to be sense-redundant alerts, at least for
| alerts requiring immediate action.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > it would quickly become annoying if the car announced "The
| car is now locked"
|
| Ha, I'm having flashbacks to my neighbor's old Chrysler New
| Yorker (from the K car era). "The door is ajar, the door is
| ajar." And couldn't just say it was open, that doesn't sound
| fancy enough.
|
| > the first time you hear it, the tone will be seared into
| your memory
|
| Indeed, the joke is that the Tesla alert tone causes PTSD
| after you hear it the first time.
| eternauta3k wrote:
| Speech gets annoying, like webex's "Muted" / "Unmuted" / "Lower
| microphone to unmute"
| bigyikes wrote:
| This one is pretty cool and definitely surprised me.
|
| > Motor Humming or Whirring when Navigating to a Supercharger
|
| ...
|
| > In some circumstances (such as cold weather), it is normal for
| the motor(s) and components to make noise, such as humming or
| whirring as it generates heat to warm the Battery.
|
| Super cool that the motors can be used for things other than
| moving the vehicle. It reminds me of how ESCs for RC vehicles use
| the motors to generate audible chirp tones to indicate status.
|
| Motors are multi-purpose devices!
| Waterluvian wrote:
| I always thought about this growing up. How the engine's heat
| is used directly to heat the cabin and there is no heater.
|
| Also my gaming PC in the winter. It feels like free compute
| given I'm heating anyways.
| anikan_vader wrote:
| It's free electricity, but a computing device still makes for
| a pricey space heater.
| bigyikes wrote:
| > Also my gaming PC in the winter. It feels like free compute
| given I'm heating anyways.
|
| Totally. If it's cold and you have an idle rig, you might as
| well use it to run a crypto miner before reaching for an
| actual heater.
| xur17 wrote:
| Assuming you use electric resistive heat. The math changes
| a bit for gas or heat pumps.
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| Actual heating systems can be better than 100% efficient,
| while crypto mining or cinebench or whatever is <100%
| koverda wrote:
| what do you mean?
| kalleboo wrote:
| Heat pumps which use energy to move heat around are more
| efficient than using energy to generate heat directly.
| vGPU wrote:
| Heat pumps can provide an "efficiency" of some 300-400%+.
| The "trick" is that they use electricity to move heat
| instead of creating heat, which is why heat pumps stop
| working well under a certain temperature.
|
| They kinda work like a reverse refrigerator. A fridge
| takes heat out from the inside and moves it to the
| outside. A heat pump does the opposite.
| stephen_g wrote:
| You've completely failed to answer their actual question,
| it was the claim of _less than_ 100% efficient heating
| they were asking about...
| vGPU wrote:
| No. He was replying to this post:
|
| > Actual heating systems can be better than 100%
| efficient, while crypto mining or cinebench or whatever
| is <100%.
|
| The intricacies of why a crypto minor is less than 100%
| efficient when working as a heater are easily deduced,
| unless you're precisely the sort of midwit that likes to
| leave replies such as the one you left.
| josephcsible wrote:
| How can anything be <100% if producing heat is the goal?
| Where would the rest of the energy be going?
| wardedVibe wrote:
| They mean a heat pump. You apply work to transfer heat,
| getting more inside than if you had just turned the
| energy into heat directly; the outside gets colder of
| course.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump#Principle_of_oper
| ati...
| josephcsible wrote:
| Yes, heat pumps are over 100%, but isn't turning the
| energy into heat directly exactly 100%?
| Adverblessly wrote:
| As a random thought, for resistive heating some energy is
| definitely "lost" as light.
| krallja wrote:
| Even light will eventually be absorbed by some surface
| and become heat.
| stephen_g wrote:
| I'm not sure what they mean about crypto miners or
| computers (mentioning cinebench), _basically_ all the
| energy going in should be turned into heat so that should
| be near enough to 100% efficient. Where else would the
| energy be going? Sure, there will be a bit of RF power
| (Wi-Fi and some EMI) and depending on the device, a bit
| of light (LED indicators, monitor backlight) but that
| should be tiny compared to the energy that will end up as
| heat...
|
| In terms of heating systems though, it's normal for fuel
| based systems to be <100% because you need to vent
| exhaust, and a lot of your heat your fuel produced can be
| rejected away from where you want it with that. For
| example, older gas boilers might only be 80% efficient or
| so, and even the much more efficient condensing boilers
| are still only in the low 90s.
| crashmat wrote:
| Won't light heat things up by bouncing around anyway?
| jffry wrote:
| Yeah as long as it doesn't escape your room, the photons
| will end up slightly warming _something_ when they get
| absorbed.
| quesera wrote:
| Using a cryptominer or GP computer at full tilt for the
| purpose of making heat is less than 100% efficient,
| because some of the input power gets used on computing.
|
| A pure resistive heater is also less than 100% efficient,
| but it's very very close.
| jffry wrote:
| Where does the energy "used on computing" go? The power
| consumption of a CPU is dissipated as heat.
| amluto wrote:
| Your computer is not doing work (in the thermodynamic
| sense) that gets stored anywhere in the computer, and it
| is not transmitting a significant amount of energy out
| the Ethernet port either. (It is moving some energy out
| the port, copper or fiber, but it's likely receiving an
| almost equal amount back, and the power is question is
| negligible.)
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| I think you lose some to RF, photons (with a monitor),
| sound waves, etc. Some of those losses can be reabsorbed
| and turned into heat, but some stray photons and radio
| waves will go out the window, never to return.
|
| The majority does go to heat but you'll never hit the
| 100% threshold like other methods of heating can meet (or
| exceed)
| jowea wrote:
| Won't you damage your GPU faster by doing that?
| jacquesm wrote:
| A gasoline based ICE is so incredibly inefficient it needs to
| shed heat or it would melt down. It makes more heat than that
| it makes motive power (the thing it is designed to do...). A
| 50 KW engine makes 200 KW(!!) of heat (at full throttle).
| Most of that heat energy exits the system through the exhaust
| gases but there is plenty that gets stuck in the body of the
| engine and you need to remove it from there somehow before it
| causes damage. That's where your cooling system comes in, a
| coolant (typically: water or glycol or a mixture) passes
| through its own channels in the engine around the thermally
| loaded parts such as the cylinder and head walls to remove
| the heat. This coolant is pumped around in the engine using
| the coolant pump to a radiator, usually located at the front
| of the car in the airstream to help reject the heat to the
| environment. The interior heater of a car basically just re-
| routes a bit of that heat in the cooling system into the
| cabin through a miniature radiator with a fan connected to it
| that doesn't vent into the environment but into the cabin.
|
| So there is plenty of waste heat to go around. Some diesels
| got so efficient though that they needed an extra in-line
| heater to have enough heat for the cabin in specific
| operating domains (low power engine, low revs).
|
| It is effectively co-generation: you get two different kinds
| of energy (motive and heat) and you use them for different
| purposes.
| dmix wrote:
| I always wonder how you know so much about so many topics
| to make quality comments on a wide variety of topics on HN.
| Truly a jack of all trades.
|
| Maybe it's like how I spend so much time reading random
| Wikipedia articles on topics because I need to know how
| everything works.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Hm... too many projects :)
|
| And that list is only getting longer, I think I'll pass
| it on to my kids.
|
| Right now (and for the past couple of years) it has been
| mostly music but also still some more interesting tools
| to play with. Currently making a set of super realistic
| traffic lights for my youngest including pedestrian
| crossing and automatic cycle influencing (road coil
| pickup to detect car presence in front of the lights) for
| his model cars. Green wave, the works.
|
| I've mostly stopped writing up the projects, but still
| have a bunch of posts pickled that I probably should
| finish. Most recent software bit: ear training module for
| pianojacq.com is work in progress (press low 'A' on an 88
| key keyboard to enable the secret menu that will enable
| the ear trainer, it is not quite ready for mass
| consumption yet but it is getting there).
| dmix wrote:
| Oh cool, not to further derail this thread but the music
| direction is interesting. I've also just gotten (back)
| into music production using an MPC One+ and I used
| https://www.audiblegenius.com/ for music theory+ear
| training. A frequent theme I've noticed in Youtube
| tutorials is a ton of >35 software engineers mentioning
| they are getting into music and feeling the need to say
| how old they are, as I guess the meme is learning music
| is for naive 20yr olds.
| jacquesm wrote:
| For me it was COVID that drove me back to music, I had a
| ton of time on my hands and we'd just bought an old (and
| really crappy) piano so I decided to get more serious
| about it. Long way to go though before I'll be satisfied
| with it, and I doubt I ever will be. Not giving up, it is
| just too much fun.
|
| Thank you for that link!
| rebuilder wrote:
| Even more off-topic, but something I'm struggling with
| personally: how do you find the time for projects, with
| kids in the picture? Me, I can just barely eke out a
| truncated workday, then it's kids and housework until the
| kids go to sleep and maybe 1.5 hours of time until bed,
| which mostly I spend with my partner.
|
| So I see people with diverse interests _and_ kids and I
| just wonder: how!
| jacquesm wrote:
| Hm, that's a hard one. I try to involve my kids in them,
| this doesn't always work, but when it does it is
| fantastic.
|
| I'm also an insomniac (it's 7:20 am here and I'm still
| awake...) so I have a ton of time when everybody is
| asleep (that's when I do most of my coding and reading),
| and when everybody is off to school I catch up on sleep.
| Not ideal but it mostly works. Another nice-to-have is
| that I can make ends meet with a relatively small
| fraction of the year spent on work (and that simply means
| I'm not reducing my savings, if I want to grow my savings
| I'd have to work more than that).
| sbierwagen wrote:
| >Some diesels got so efficient though that they needed an
| extra in-line heater to have enough heat for the cabin in
| specific operating domains
|
| I live on the top of a hill, so the first seven minutes or
| so of me driving anywhere is coasting at minimum engine
| power. Once air temp gets below 10C it's a long, slow
| painful wait for the vents to start blowing warm air.
| Especially unfortunate when you're waiting for the
| defroster to start doing something. I've considered
| installing a block heater, even though it wouldn't be
| needed to start the engine at all, just to warm the coolant
| up!
| jacquesm wrote:
| Such a slow warmup is probably also bad for your engine
| (the oil will be super hard to pump around so you'll have
| very little lubrication and very high oil pressure until
| it warms up a bit) so that block heater may well be
| useful in more ways than one.
|
| You may want to look into oil that flows better at low
| temps in winter based on what temperature your engine
| eventually reaches when it is fully warmed up. There is a
| good chance that your engine will work better with
| different oils for winter and summer, also if you have an
| older car you may get some mileage out of blocking off a
| piece of the radiator.
| sbierwagen wrote:
| It's supposed to run 5W-30 but for the cold months I do
| 5W-20. After watching the Project Farm metal on metal
| wear tests of 0W oils, and the fact I'm not running the
| engine at -20C, I'm not eager to go any lighter:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtSwaF2evTU
| literalAardvark wrote:
| Do 0w-30 not Xw-20. The number on the left is cold
| temperature performance, where cold temperature =not at
| operating temperature.
|
| The number on the right is in the manual and you only
| change it when you go to the track.
|
| Atm you're running a lighter oil than your car is
| designed to use and it's very likely to be a bad idea.
|
| In the video you linked the only oils you can compare in
| the way he is comparing them are the 0w-20 and the 5w-20.
|
| Later edit: I've watched that and since the tests the
| oils only at cold temperature it is entirely inconclusive
| wrt protection at operating temperature.
|
| And cooking test is just dumb. Your oil rarely above
| operating spec. The only oil exposure to above spec temps
| is the oil in the top side while the engine is cooking
| after being stopped, and the oil in the burn chamber
| which burns and is then filtered out.
|
| If you want to know how your oil is doing collect it
| after a service interval and send it to be tested.
| jacquesm wrote:
| This.
|
| The latter is also useful to check for impending
| headgasket doom (or cracks) before it is otherwise
| visible.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Definitely go for the 0W-30 if you're doing cold runs
| even if it isn't at -20C. I use it myself in the winter
| on an older engine for very similar reasons. That video
| is ... questionable ....
| semi-extrinsic wrote:
| Better than (or in addition to) a block heater is to have
| an AC cabin heater. Defa makes some really nice stuff,
| it's more or less "standard extra equipment" here in
| Scandinavia.
| Roark66 wrote:
| Maybe check if your EGR is operating properly? Also the
| resistance heater if equipped.
|
| Most diesel cars equipped with EGR also detect its
| (frequent in older cars) failures, but I suppose it's
| possible to have a fault without it being detected.
|
| EGR is responsible for recirculating exhaust gases back
| into the intake primarily to increase efficiency, but a
| nice side effect is that it heats up the engine a lot
| quicker.
|
| Also, many diesel cars sold around here since 2000 or so
| are equipped with a resistance heater that kicks in when
| the engine is cold. Perhaps that's different in other
| markets.
| almostnormal wrote:
| > EGR is responsible for recirculating exhaust gases back
| into the intake primarily to increase efficiency, but a
| nice side effect is that it heats up the engine a lot
| quicker.
|
| Efficiency does not need EGR. EGR only helps to keep NOX
| down when running efficiently. In some (many) vehicles
| EGR is disabled at cold temperatures.
| akira2501 wrote:
| > It makes more heat than that it makes motive power (the
| thing it is designed to do...).
|
| Sure.. but try running that same engine when it gets too
| cold, which is why "block heaters" exist and get used in
| certain parts of the world. The operating temperature of
| the engine _is_ part of the design criteria.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Absolutely, but to get it there it has to work first or
| you'll have to pump in heat from some other source.
| Starting a large diesel in sub-zero temps can be quite
| challenging.
| queuebert wrote:
| I'd like to add that ICEs need to run hot to minimize
| cylinder wall heat losses and allow more of the explosion
| to be converted into work instead of heat, although too hot
| and they break of course. Ideally the engine block would be
| at the same temperature as the combustion temperature, but
| we don't have the materials to achieve that yet.
| afavour wrote:
| Unfortunately I have a vivid memory of the opposite: driving
| an extremely decrepit old car through the south in July, had
| to crank the heat to max to try to direct the heat away from
| the engine. No AC in the car, naturally.
| JoBrad wrote:
| I also have this memory. The A/C is a heat pump that just
| pulled heat to/from the radiator, which is used for both
| the engine and the A/C. So turning on the heat causes the
| thermostat to be tripped faster (or so I was told), moving
| heat away from the engine. You had to be moving for this to
| work well, especially if your thermostat was going bad.
| dralley wrote:
| My understanding is that high-end residential heat pumps (e.g.
| Mitsubishi HyperHeat) will do this at lower temperatures as
| well. If the temp drops into the zone where the heat pump
| starts losing effectiveness (which on such systems is still
| pretty low, supposedly mine provides the full heat rating down
| to around 0F), they can run the blower motor in a less
| efficient regime to supplement the heat pump with a bit of
| resistance heating, without needing to fall back to a true
| "auxillary" heat source like heat strips or a furnace. That can
| extend the effective range down to a few degrees below zero
| (Fahrenheit).
|
| Since I live in the southeast, that's more than good enough to
| skip installing any auxillary heat source in the first place.
| dosshell wrote:
| Interesting, that does not sound efficient? How much more
| efficient than using electrical heating directly instead?
|
| 0F ? That can't be right?
|
| My Mitsubishi gives heat to around -31F (MSZ-RW Sumo)
| londons_explore wrote:
| The efficiency of electrical resistance heating is exactly
| the same whether you use motor coil resistance or
| resistance wire.
|
| However, they simplify their system design a little (fewer
| contactors, fewer wires, fewer components to buy/test)
| stavros wrote:
| It's not the same if you generate the heat outside and
| bring it inside, though. I don't know enough about where
| the fan is located to know if that's what you mean, but
| that would be different.
| raccoonDivider wrote:
| Logically you'd keep as many parts as possible inside,
| where the temperature is easier to control?
| bogeholm wrote:
| Maybe if you expect the heat pump to mainly move heat in,
| the heat generating parts should be on the inside, and
| reverse if you're mainly moving heat out (A/C).
|
| Don't know if this is considered during installation?
| briHass wrote:
| The compressor is the only component that generates a
| substantial amount of heat. That's really it's purpose:
| trading a pressure increase in the refigerant for a rise
| in temp.
|
| The compressor is usually in the outdoor unit, because of
| noise, size, and proximity to the controls. It also is
| the item that consumes most of the power, so for
| minisplits, the outdoor unit is the part wired for high
| currents. It usually is wrapped in a nice insulating
| blanket (for sound as well), and vapor injection
| techniques used in cold climate pumps means the heat
| wasted is minimal.
| londons_explore wrote:
| air/air heat pumps have a fan on both the inside and the
| outside. In modern designs, both those fans will be
| brushless DC, which enables deliberate heating through
| software.
|
| Note however that both fans will typically be ~150 watts
| - which means that when heating they can't produce orders
| of magnitude more heat than that. So heat produced by the
| fan motor, even when run to generate as much heat as
| possible, probably won't be a very significant
| contributor to overall system heat output.
| xg15 wrote:
| I find it interesting that you can find stuff like this even
| in biology: When you shiver in cold weather, your body is
| basically doing the same.
| joshspankit wrote:
| This is an aside, but as a native of winter cold: shivering
| is an excellent strategy to avoid death, but it's a
| terrible strategy for actually feeling warm. (Better is
| moving, relaxing, and massaging the ears/hands/feet to
| promote blood flow.)
| Angostura wrote:
| > shivering is an excellent strategy to avoid death, but
| it's a terrible strategy for actually feeling warm.
|
| Sounds like an excellent survival strategy - saves you,
| but leaves discomfort so you have an incentive to get
| somewhere safer.
| xg15 wrote:
| Sort of makes sense to me. From what I understood from
| the wiki [1], you can compare the temperature regulation
| (very) roughly to a thermostat: There is a "target"
| temperature that the body "wants" to reach and a
| "current" temperature that the body senses it currently
| has.
|
| If "current" is higher than "target", the body invokes
| several mechanisms to bring the temperature down, such as
| turning up sweat production and making you feel hot; if
| "current" is lower than "target", it does the same to
| raise the temperature e.g. by shivering and making you
| feel cold.
|
| (Fever also works by changing the _target_ temperature of
| that regulation system, which is why you feel cold at the
| beginning when the target was raised to the fever
| temperature and hot at the end when it was lowered back
| to the normal body temperature)
|
| So it makes sense to me that shivering doesn't make you
| _feel_ warm, because both, the feeling and the shivering
| are efforts by the body to raise the temperature.
|
| [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoregulation_in_h
| umans
| joshspankit wrote:
| Easy upvote.
|
| I think there's something else mentioned on that page
| that is a major contributor to feeling cold: redirecting
| blood flow away from the skin and in to the muscles
| (/organs)
| gambiting wrote:
| Don't know about high end - I literally have the cheapest
| unit from Midea and it does exactly this when it's cold.
| spike021 wrote:
| I have a relatively analogue car (Subaru BRZ) and there are
| times when you shut it off on a warm day and then randomly
| about ten mins later a radiator fan kicks on. I guess it's to
| help cool down but I don't remember exactly what the manual
| says.
|
| Basically it's cool how cars do things largely on their own
| sometimes to stay within certain parameters.
| rpmisms wrote:
| My Kawasaki Ninja 500 will do the same thing, and it's a bike
| with very old tech. It is air-cooled, so it's probably a
| safety feature. Still cool.
| akira2501 wrote:
| Supposedly one of the arguments for lane splitting in
| California was the propensity for bikes to overheat out
| here when stopped in traffic. My 650 did not have a fan but
| it did a good enough job heating up my crotch to a nearly
| unbearable degree on a hot day without it.
| IgorPartola wrote:
| I have certainly experienced overheating due to traffic
| on my air cooled bike. Now I am thinking about adding a
| fan to my oil cooler that would either be on a switch or
| even on a proper thermostat.
| rpmisms wrote:
| I have as well, and it's why I'm getting a liquid-cooled
| bike.
| throwawaaarrgh wrote:
| The fan is triggered by a relay, triggered by the ECU, which
| uses coolant sensors (the thermostat sensor that is iirc not
| always the mechanical thermostat) to adjust when to cool the
| radiator. That temp is much higher than the ambient air will
| ever get, so if the fan comes on after the car is turned off
| then either it was just about at the temp that would have
| turned on the fan, or something could be slowly going wrong
| with the car to trigger the fan unnecessarily. A car is a
| system of systems so many different things can cause it.
|
| If it happens a lot (when turned off) I'd think about having
| an inspection done. Worst case scenario, engine ends up
| overheating, warps or explodes, and you need a new one.
| Coolant system is one of those "oh shit" systems that you
| need to pay close attention to.
| sgc wrote:
| Car engines heat up when you park, because the air cooling
| and circulation of the coolant keeps it cooler while
| driving. It seems completely within the common laws of
| physics that when you are at not so uncommon temperatures,
| the coolant closer to the engine heats up well above
| standard operating temperatures once the car is off, and
| then convection currents bring enough of this overheated
| coolant to the sensor to trigger the fan. I have seen this
| behavior on many cars over the years, without any
| underlying concern in any of them. If it is not running hot
| while driving, I personally would not worry about it.
| JasonSage wrote:
| This is 100% correct.
|
| For those curious, the coolant around the engine block
| can boil and flow upwards after the engine is off, and
| the coolant circulation system is designed to handle this
| pattern. You can observe this yourself if you overfill
| your coolant and take it out on a hot day, the excess hot
| coolant will bubble up and run out for a good while after
| the engine is off.
|
| I second the advice that if the engine isn't overheating
| while running, everything is likely working as intended.
| londons_explore wrote:
| It's also a common cause of breakdowns... The fan
| normally cools the radiator, but the temperature sensor
| is on a coolant hose. Since the engine is stopped coolant
| isn't flowing so the fan isn't cooling the same thing the
| sensor is sensing, which means it can end up running for
| 30 mins or more. Since the fan can be 20 amps or so, you
| can easily kill old car batteries due to this effect.
| User comes back after an hour shopping to find their car
| battery is dead.
|
| If I was a car manufacturer, I would wire the fan into
| the ignition circuit so it can never run with the
| ignition off - it's fairly useless to have a fan blowing
| on a radiator when the coolant isn't flowing anyway.
| pests wrote:
| Isn't that feature the exact one being discussed in this
| threads in order to not overheat the engine though?
| londons_explore wrote:
| Yes, but other posters are mistaken that it is a 'clever'
| feature to prevent overheat during heat soak. It is
| instead more an accidental byproduct of the fact it is
| wired direct to the battery and not to the ignition
| circuit. Thats done to save a couple of cents on the
| ignition switch (no need for a large high current fan to
| be powered through it).
| epcoa wrote:
| No you're mistaken.
|
| > Thats done to save a couple of cents on the ignition
| switch (no need for a large high current fan to be
| powered through it).
|
| The fan must be powered by a relay in most cases so this
| is utter bullshit.
|
| In most any modern car the fan is controlled by the ECM
| (a computer). Furthermore this fan relay will come on in
| anticipation of high heat load such as when the AC is
| turned on as well in cars without dual fans.
|
| There is so much more complexity here than just wiring
| through the ignition circuit (which wouldn't cost any
| more anyway as noted) that thinking this is a cost saving
| issue is utterly clueless.
|
| And the temperature sensor that controls it is invariably
| located in the engine block, not the radiator hose.
| Modern cars may have multiple sensors but they need one
| in the block.
|
| Cooling fans in most cars don't draw 20 amps while
| running normally (they should be closer to 10), and while
| anything can fail the cooling fan in these setups should
| only run for a few minutes. Draining the battery like you
| claim is not a "common" cause of breakdowns.
|
| You clearly don't know much about modern (last >30 years)
| cars to be commenting on them so authoritatively, tone
| down your arrogance.
|
| https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-2004-2008-93/wiring-
| diagr...
|
| This is a typical setup (and it's 20 years ago).
| Debunking two of your claims. First note that the
| condenser fan _is_ wired through the ignition, debunking
| the notion that it would be costly to do so and that
| running the main fan bypassed isn't intentional. Also
| note that the actual fan control is the lower right black
| box PCM /ECM (engine computer)
| pests wrote:
| > Car engines heat up when you park, because the air
| cooling and circulation of the coolant
|
| A further reason is no movement = no wind speed. I used
| to have an old Pontiac grand am with the ram air. I had
| overheating issues sometimes that were literally solved
| by going faster.
| throwawaaarrgh wrote:
| If it goes on for 15 minutes or more, it could be one of
| seven different problems: https://mindofmechanic.com/fan-
| still-running-when-car-is-off...
|
| Cars are like people. Sometimes a quirk is normal, and
| sometimes it means your bottom end is gonna fall out.
| Gotta get regular checkups and hope you catch it in time.
| bb123 wrote:
| I don't think this is true - this is completely normal
| behaviour. The cooling fan is coming on due to a phenomenon
| called heat soak which is where the engine temperature
| increases above normal for a time after it has been
| switched off due to the lack of coolant flow. The fan is
| coming on to aid cooling the engine/engine bay to reduce
| the effect of heat soak.
|
| With carburettor fed engines it is sometimes advised by the
| manufacturer to allow the engine to idle for some time
| after running it at high RPM. This is because the effect of
| heat soak can be significant enough to boil all the fuel
| off in the carb, making the engine hard to restart when
| hot.
| kiksy wrote:
| I have the same car, it does this too. As have most if not
| all of my other cars I've owned. I've always put it down to
| the fact there is no cooling from the forward motion of the
| car passing air towards the radiators so the engine slowly
| heats from the already generated heat from driving. The
| temperature hits the limit the sensor has set and the fan
| turns on until it's below that set temperature.
| bb123 wrote:
| This is due to a phenomenon called heat soak which is where
| the engine temperature increases above normal for a time
| after it has been switched off due to the lack of coolant
| flow. The fan is coming on to aid cooling the engine/engine
| bay to reduce the effect of heat soak. With carburettor fed
| engines it is sometimes advised by the manufacturer to allow
| the engine to idle for some time after running it at high
| RPM. This is because the effect of heat soak can be
| significant enough to boil all the fuel off in the carb,
| making the engine hard to restart when hot.
| l33tman wrote:
| same issue with projector lamps, the fan is kept on for a
| while after you shut them off
| HPsquared wrote:
| And ovens.
| almostnormal wrote:
| And some PC power supplies.
| krallja wrote:
| My portable induction stove runs its fan for a minute
| after I shut off the coil.
| actionfromafar wrote:
| Also turbo charged engines can greatly benefit from running
| idle for a minute. I learned the hard way. (Had to replace
| the turbo.)
| rainbowzootsuit wrote:
| There have existed "turbo timers" that keep the engine
| running for a short time after the key is off to help
| avoid this. Not sure if that works with modern cars as
| easily.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Modern turbo designs (most anything in the last 25 years,
| at least) use water cooled turbos and convection keeps
| the water flowing after the engine is turned off. This is
| why we don't use turbo timers any more.
| gambiting wrote:
| And also even back then it affected almost no one, there
| were loads of tests done on this by automotive magazines
| of the era and found out that usually the last 1-2
| minutes of gentle driving to your driveway/garage is more
| than enough to cool down the turbo properly, the only
| people affected were those who due to either aggressive
| driving or circumstances of their location would drive at
| high rpm, stop, then _immediately_ shut down their
| engines.
| actionfromafar wrote:
| Towing something heavy uphill, then stopping to get some
| gas and a sandwich. The SAAB killer move.
| FireBeyond wrote:
| I have a 2021 twin turbo car (Audi RS 5). It runs the
| radiator and pumps adaptively on engine shut off to bring
| things down.
| op00to wrote:
| I had an old Volvo that would "vapor lock" on short trips.
| It's amazing how reliable cars are now compared to 20 years
| ago.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| In my experience it was more than 20 years ago that this
| happened. It was when most cars switched to fuel
| injection. Late 80s, early 90s. Treating a car as an
| appliance and having it 'just work' became so much easier
| when fuel injection was invented.
|
| 20 years ago was 2003, which is practically yesterday [in
| my mind...].
| bratwurst3000 wrote:
| To my knowledge it is because the the oil and water needs
| the motor on to move through the engine and cool certain
| parts . If the motor is shout down to early and those can't
| circulate anymore following could happen
|
| -turbocharger overheats
|
| -oil overheats And the things you stated and much more ...
|
| Better to let the motor run while standing is to run it the
| last kilometers in low rpm
| c0nsumer wrote:
| Because it was designed with Toyota I don't know if the BRZ
| does it, but a number of other Subarus will kick on an
| recovery pump ~6 hours after ignition. It sounds sort of like
| a small/quiet compressor.
|
| Before I looked up what it was, I kept hearing a gentle noise
| coming from the garage in the late evening. Figured it was
| noise from outside... Then one day I was out there and heard
| it start, realized it was the car, and looked it up.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| That is the evap leak testing pump. It pressurizes the tank
| briefly to test the effectiveness of the cap.
| twisteriffic wrote:
| This confused the hell out of me the first time I heard
| it. Taking the garbage out in the middle of the night and
| hear whirring coming from under a vehicle that hasn't
| moved in hours.
| pests wrote:
| This was def a noticable thing in the M3 before they added the
| dedicated heat pump.
| jon-wood wrote:
| > It reminds me of how ESCs for RC vehicles use the motors to
| generate audible chirp tones to indicate status.
|
| Super Mario Wonder from Nintendo recently uses the vibration
| motors in your controller to play sound effects in some places
| which I thought was an incredibly neat trick.
| rainbowzootsuit wrote:
| Back when I watched more F1 racing they had a musical
| performance where they used the telematic systems of some cars,
| with their high revving motors, to play notes ie the telematics
| selectively. I couldn't readily find a reference but remember
| the event.
| wrycoder wrote:
| It's on YouTube. Star Wars, as I recollect.
| queuebert wrote:
| The Car Care Nut talked in detail about the multi-purpose
| design of Tesla's heating systems:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HC72p2gfuQ
| Racing0461 wrote:
| Feels like a good opportunity to in addition to having the normal
| system diagnosis, have a process that listens to the sound the
| car makes and recommend bringing it into the shop if the sound
| sounds weird or off.
| mkranjec wrote:
| Some ACs use exactly this method. Haven't found any other
| household appliances that use sound for diagnostics.
| dclowd9901 wrote:
| This really is a tremendous idea and if vehicle software
| engineers were better they might actually be able to do it.
| alsodumb wrote:
| Samsung appliances do this I think? Or some other brand.
|
| You basically call a number and then press a button on the
| appliance and it produces a sound that tells the customer
| service what's wrong.
| latchkey wrote:
| Anyone mixed this into music?
| xcxcx wrote:
| Some people deserve the Metaverse
| AYBABTME wrote:
| The loud "pops" at superchargers and when driving after
| supercharging surprised me for a while. I would stop to look
| under the car if I had hit something. The pops while charging are
| sort of self-explanatory, but those while driving took me a while
| to associate back to the prior supercharging.
|
| Basically, changes in temperatures are causing the pops. It's
| kind of weird and slightly annoying. Sometimes it happens for
| quite a bit after charging, particularly when driving through
| changing climate (i.e. climbing mountains). Having done Reno/SF
| round trips a good few times now, I've gotten used to it.
| jacquesm wrote:
| What is the cause? Thermal expansion?
|
| I have a room in my attic that can make _really_ loud bangs on
| hot summer nights (enough to scare the crap out of me when I am
| concentrating on something and do not expect them) when it
| contracts again after a day in the heat. The root cause there
| is stick slip: the thing doesn 't move for a long time due to
| its weight so tension builds up and then suddenly it will shift
| a little and the whole structure amplifies the sound from the
| shockwave passing through it.
|
| Your 'pops' remind me of that (and supercharging must have some
| thermal effects).
| Kirby64 wrote:
| Similar mechanism as your attic noises. There's a giant metal
| plate on the bottom of the thing, so all the heat generated
| while it's supercharging (in a very cold environment) causes
| that 'snap' which makes a loud noise. Same thing happens if
| you've ever heated up a thin metal baking sheet. It'll 'snap'
| from one position to another and make a horrible racket.
|
| Same thing apparently happens if you are heavy on
| regenerative braking when descending a mountain pass. Cold
| air, plus 50kW+ of regen braking is similar to just
| supercharging the car.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Oh, that last one is an interesting one.
| alliao wrote:
| thanks! I've heard the pops during my winter trips but
| never associated with thermal expansion! Always thought I'd
| hit some animals or debris on the road.
| flutas wrote:
| Something else interesting when supercharging in the
| cold...LOTS of steam(?) at times.
|
| Shocked me the first time it happened. Cold (~5F outside),
| low and hot battery (just went from 80 to ~5%). Legit
| thought the car was on fire at first.
| pests wrote:
| They also had a recall on the pressure release valves. The car
| was allowing the pressure to get too high inside thr battery
| and would make a pop on release.
| masto wrote:
| I appreciate those pops and bangs, as a reminder of what it
| means to pump 250kW into a battery I'm sitting on top of.
| Especially in comparison to the 48kW that supplies my entire
| house.
| 93po wrote:
| I've never heard these pops but I've also never supercharged in
| the cold
| timeimp wrote:
| These are gonna be the new SFX in the modding community, I
| guarantee it.
| orangepurple wrote:
| Loading this page causes the tab to crash with SIGTRAP on
| Chromium 119.0.6045.159 Linux
| wildrhythms wrote:
| Same, it immediately crashes upon loading. On Windows with
| Chrome 119.0.6045.160
|
| [Edit] Figured out Dark Reader extension is causing the crash.
| I turned it off for that specific site and it no longer
| crashes. Very strange.
| jakebasile wrote:
| Same here. I've had other weird interactions with Dark Reader
| before - one was where minecraft.net refused to let me log in
| until I turned off Dark Reader.
| Nekorosu wrote:
| I'm so waiting for a techno track made out of those.
| synaesthesisx wrote:
| It's astounding just how quiet EV's are; they can make you
| hyperaware of other noises (hence why this page exists).
| smt88 wrote:
| Is this universal? I've driven the Rav4 Prime and Ioniq 5
| extensively and neither made weird sounds.
| kccqzy wrote:
| I've driven the Ioniq 5 and I can easily hear a high pitched
| motor whine at speeds between 45 and 60 mph. I cannot hear
| any noise below 45 or above 60, other than the intentional
| pedestrian warning sound.
|
| I suspect as I age my ability to hear such high pitched whine
| will be gone.
| smt88 wrote:
| Motor whine isn't a weird sound and it's unsurprising
| Hyundai doesn't have an FAQ page to explain it.
|
| I suspect many of these noises are due to Tesla's
| notoriously poor build quality.
| kccqzy wrote:
| I agree it isn't weird but it bothers me much more than
| the engine noise of an ICE car.
| numpad0 wrote:
| The fact that this page exists feel like they're having a lot
| of creaking/rattling complaints. Why else have it.
| gregoriol wrote:
| It would highly depend on the brand and model: one would
| expect Rolls-Royce EVs or even some like Lexus not to make
| any annoying noises.
| smt88 wrote:
| Wouldn't one also expect that of Teslas, which are as
| expensive or more expensive than EVs made by legacy luxury
| brands like Lexus?
| otteromkram wrote:
| I hope legislation gets enacted that will make it illegal to
| blast artificial "exhaust" noises from EVs.
|
| Not like cops will actually enforce it, but one can still
| dream...
| josephcsible wrote:
| No need to make it illegal. The laws just need to be fixed to
| stop making it mandatory, and every automaker will drop it
| immediately.
| sweetjuly wrote:
| The mandatory noise maker is an important pedestrian safety
| feature. It helps you avoid getting hit by cars. It's also
| only required at low speeds (and at higher speeds it
| wouldn't matter anyways due to tire noise dominating).
| odiroot wrote:
| We can always install a 50cc two-stroke ICE in every
| electric car. Would be perfect for warning pedestrians ;)
| userbinator wrote:
| All the blind people will definitely not want that...
|
| I can see, and yet I've been scared more than once by an
| unusually quiet car behind me.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| I'm not 100% sure, but the words "blast" and "exhaust" make
| me think they're not talking about friendly car-is-here
| noises.
| Danjoe4 wrote:
| They added the artificial exhaust noise because it's a legal
| requirement
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| Yeah scary, I need to look around in carparks where I used to
| rely on the noise of the car approaching.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| This isn't a problem in my neighborhood, the opposite has now
| happened. I can hear my neighbors more than a block away. And
| it's actually not the EVs that are the worst offenders --
| it's Toyota hybrids. They -howl- and are much louder than the
| non-hybrid equivalent. My Model 3 just makes white noise.
| Same volume as any other unmodified car at low speeds. Tire
| noise quickly dominates in either case, of course, above
| 10-15 mph or so.
| gregoriol wrote:
| It's more a tech-guy thing than EVs: I'm very aware and
| listening to sounds made by ICE cars or motorbikes, and I'm not
| a mechanic, just a little bit techy. The sounds are different
| on EVs because some are new to us: those related to charging,
| the battery, the motors, ... we don't expect them yet. That doc
| is really good for this, but only for us technies. Most people
| won't care until something is not functioning though.
| golem14 wrote:
| there are many "similar" chime noises for entirely different
| warnings on this page (no seatbelts; proximity alarms, ...). I'm
| not sure what _is_ a good UI here, but I feel that this ain 't
| it.
| a-dub wrote:
| i wonder if they've put any effort in having the car listen to
| itself and explain ordinary sounds (and alert on problematic
| ones).
| miki123211 wrote:
| Today I learned. The Tesla owner's manual has alt descriptions
| for its images. They're not good alt descriptions, but they are
| there.
|
| In fact, it is one of the most screen reader accessible manuals
| for any device I've ever seen, most are some weird PDF
| abominations where all the button names are replaced by their
| unlabeled icons. Even devices made specifically for the blind
| have these issues sometimes. This? This is just perfectly
| readable HTML.
|
| It's especially ironic considering that Teslas (as far as I know)
| aren't accessible in any way. Even the infotainment system, which
| a blind person might want to use, for example when waiting for a
| sighted acquaintance in the car, does not have a screen reader
| and is not in any way usable.
| tavavex wrote:
| I don't think that there are any cars that are accessible in
| the way you've mentioned. It seems like too niche of a use case
| in exchange for more complexity and time to develop. These
| systems are usually built for drivers first and foremost, so
| them being able to see is an assumption that most can make.
| scandinavian wrote:
| > Even the infotainment system, which a blind person might want
| to use, for example when waiting for a sighted acquaintance in
| the car, does not have a screen reader and is not in any way
| usable.
|
| It has really excellent voice commands for pretty much any
| function though. Sadly it can only be triggered by pressing the
| right scroll wheel on the wheel. While possible to just reach
| over, it's probably not optimal for your suggested use case.
| rpmisms wrote:
| My previous car, a 2014 Model S, had my favorite acceleration
| sound of any car: a guttural whine in a perfect third, ascending
| as speed increased, and louder as load increased. It's the only
| thing I miss after upgrading to a Model 3. Well, that and the
| ability to do burnouts. Confused quite a few people doing that.
| perbu wrote:
| It still sounds like future.
| kristianp wrote:
| Reminds me of my old civic, pre-cvt, once you get to about
| 70kph, it would shift into a high gear and then engine noise
| would become a satisfyingly low hum. My current car with CVT
| hasn't got an operating regime I enjoy like that.
| 1-6 wrote:
| I hope one day, Tesla would use these sounds to troubleshoot and
| perform preventative maintenance.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| What would be the point? The car has a huge number of more
| accurate sensors for nearly every thing you can think of. If
| you're bored go look at some of the errors people have posted.
| It measures a huge number of variables directly that will
| indicate an issue well before ambient noise will.
| bhasi wrote:
| "Creaking From the Tires or Brakes"
|
| I don't have a Tesla, but I hear this sound in my own car,
| especially now that it's winter. I began hearing this after my
| recent car service that involved a ~real~ rear brakes
| replacement. When I took my car to the service guy, it was
| afternoon and I was no longer able to reproduce the noise.
|
| This was driving me crazy until now! I now know it's nothing to
| worry about.
| kazinator wrote:
| Sounds like break-in of new brake pads.
| CraigJPerry wrote:
| I'm not sure I agree with Tesla on this diagnosis. To me that
| sound is metal rubbing against metal with friction.
|
| Before I investigated pads and discs, my first port of call
| would have been any ball joints. I don't know the typical Tesla
| suspension make up but if there's any bottom ball joint at the
| control arm / wheel carrier interface or tie-rod end, then that
| would be first.
|
| Either way, definitely sounded like a failing ball joint to me.
| I'd want to visually inspect the dust boots for cracks, use a
| pick to check it's still fully packed with healthy grease, then
| with wheels in the air, manipulate the wheel - hands at 12 o
| clock and 6 o clock, rock back and forth (testing bottom ball
| joint). Hands at 3 and 9 o clock (testing tie rod end).
|
| Of course brake pads on discs can also fit the profile of
| "metal rubbing against metal with friction" but in that
| particular recording... unless the audio has been messed with
| (which from listening to some other clips I think they have
| applied some hi and lo cut with roll off in post)
| kuerbel wrote:
| This one is normal (every tesla I know of does this, ymmv of
| course). However their older model 3 and y were equipped with
| some very shoddy engineered suspension arms which, over time,
| started to creak because water can enter them. Also all the
| water from the front window was/is distributed more or less
| directly over the suspension arms. Newer models have somewhat
| better suspension arms equipped.
| userbinator wrote:
| If it was a Tesla, you might want to check that brake pads are
| present: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29949728
| bottlepalm wrote:
| This owners manual is pretty nice in general.
| andreygrehov wrote:
| I own Model Y and "High-Pitched Whining Noise while Accelerating"
| is my favorite sound. I hear it pretty much every day and it
| never gets old. I wonder if other EVs make that sound, but it's
| just incredible.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| We used to have a Bolt, and it had some whine. My '19 P3D had a
| lot of whine at full tilt, and my '23 3LR has a good bit as
| well. My guess is all EVs have it to some extent.
|
| I kinda want the ability to have that piped into the car. Make
| it sound like an R/C car.
| ngcazz wrote:
| Safari is AFAICT the strictest browser in terms of ensuring no
| audio plays on a page until a user interaction triggers, and yet
| _all_ the sounds on this page played when I opened it. Confusing,
| to say the least!
| verisimi wrote:
| It should be possible to update the audio files and volume
| settings to express a totally different driving experience.
| wolframhempel wrote:
| Now make the same page for Ladas.
| bad_alloc wrote:
| Renaults unofficial slogan is " tous les jours un bruit nouveau",
| which means "every day a new noise".
|
| ... which is not that wrong with the Zoe. Especially the E-brake
| has some bark to it.
| jonplackett wrote:
| I give it to them that Cabin Noise during Acceleration with
| Ludicrous Enabled is a nice touch.
| pests wrote:
| Definitely not what I was expecting but hilarious.
| morgunkorn wrote:
| It also made me laugth :D However, there is no ludicrous mode
| available on the Model 3 and they just copy pasted that from
| the Model S documentation
| pests wrote:
| Interestingly the "Creaking From the Tires or Brakes" has a
| second or two of some random words. Wonder what that was. Any
| others with extra audio?
| anskia wrote:
| background: I had a model 3 for a couple of years and now have a
| Y ( no longer have the 3). The 3s are insanely quiet. The Y is ok
| but has a whistle at certain cruising speeds (90-100km/h).
|
| But when they are supercharging they are both ridiculously loud.
| Like having AC on full bore. Also starting a charge makes the
| most bangs and pops, regardless of the charger type.
|
| I just finished a 2000km drive and slept in the back on a
| sleeping mat. Sometimes I parked right next to the highway where
| trucks were flying past. It was almost silent inside, they really
| are well insulated from external noise.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| I think maybe you just got lucky. My first Model 3 was sort of
| quiet (just wind noise, Model 3s and Ys are quite loud compared
| to other similar cars). My current model 3 (a 2023 model) has a
| whistle at highway speeds that I haven't been able to isolate.
| Along with a fluttering sound, which may be related, and sounds
| like it's coming from the passenger side mirror area.
|
| The next Model 3 ("Highland") uses laminated glass in the rear
| windows, whereas the current one just uses it for the front.
| Should be the quietest yet.
| thirtyseven wrote:
| I've seen a Model 3 with very similar sounds coming from the
| passenger side mirror. There was a loose piece sticking out
| of the bottom, pushing it back in fixed it.
| neffo wrote:
| And yet, no fart?
| seeekr wrote:
| cheeky one: "Cabin Noise during Acceleration with Ludicrous
| Enabled"
| (https://service.tesla.com/docs/Public/om_media/plaid_reactio...)
| :D
| mangamadaiyan wrote:
| Even more cheeky that the name of the audio file is
| "plaid_reaction*" :)
| londons_explore wrote:
| If I was the engineering team, I would be trying to eliminate all
| these noises.
|
| Every single one of these could be engineered away. For example
| the pops and bangs at a supercharger is the metal shield
| deforming when heated. Instead, it should have circular ridges
| stamped into it around the fixing points to let it expand against
| the springiness of the steel.
|
| The clunk noise from brakes could be engineered away by using
| stainless steel spring clips to prevent the pads being able to
| wiggle around in the calipers (used by many manufacturers
| already).
|
| The clunk from the contactors opening/closing could be engineered
| away by having the contactors open/close far slower - with a
| proper precharge, no current is flowing, so there is no longevity
| benefit of fast close/open. Or... decide not to have contactors
| at all - I don't really see any reason they're needed, just keep
| the high voltage system always energized and design all the other
| components to have a suitably low leakage current. For
| maintenance and emergency de-energization, have a manual lever or
| a pyro-fuse.
| RichieAHB wrote:
| I guess the question would be, if indeed these suggestions
| would solve those problems, how much does this cost (I
| genuinely have no idea!) and how much do I want to spend on
| this versus putting up a webpage to direct people too.
|
| I want to shave off every last ms of latency in the services I
| own but at the end of the day at some point it's good enough
| (and best for the business) just to manage expectations.
| benhurmarcel wrote:
| Of course there are ways to eliminate most noises. But at some
| point it's not worth the cost.
| astrea wrote:
| Right. As they're clearly cutting costs at their current
| price point /s
| grey_earthling wrote:
| I suppose it depends on whether their more important goal
| is to provide the best possible service to their customers,
| or to make the most possible profit.
| two_handfuls wrote:
| Yes? Tesla historically cuts costs as much as possible,
| putting all the focus on an excellent electric engine and
| batteries. Everything else takes a second seat.
|
| For example they removed the ultrasonic parking sensors.
| They removed the radar. In the next revision, they removed
| the stalks in favor of buttons on the steering wheel to
| control the blinkers.
|
| The car is still expensive, but that's down to in part
| batteries and the tech still being somewhat pricey, and in
| part just profit (contrast to e.g. Ford selling their cars
| at a loss).
| goldpizza44 wrote:
| The sounds are not that intrusive...While others have pointed
| out the costs involved in solving them, the real question is
| "will muting each and every sound sell more cars?". Of course
| from an engineering point of view the other question is "are
| these sounds indicative of something that will fail
| prematurely?". The complexity of adding some sort of muting may
| introduce other modes of failure. Sometimes the best solution
| is the simple solution.
|
| At this point in the EV marketplace the I would say the answer
| is no to both questions. Tesla is far better concentrating
| their engineering teams on new products that can continue their
| growth.
|
| Now if some competitor comes up with a perfectly quiet car and
| that becomes a selling point, then it is time to revisit the
| engineering.
| groby_b wrote:
| "will muting each and every sound sell more cars?".
|
| Maybe muting sounds won't. But a general focus on quality
| will. There's a good amount of potential customers who
| consider Tesla low quality. There's a good amount of EV
| competitors who deliver better quality, these days.
|
| And, more importantly, it might not sell more cars next
| quarter. But not doing that will lead to a continued decline
| in perception, and _that_ is a price that 's only paid a few
| years later.
|
| Growth mattered above all when Tesla was creating the market.
| That is shifting right now, and a "new products! growth!"
| approach won't be the winning strategy for much longer. And,
| most importantly, cars are not software. You can't fix
| reputational issues with a patch.
|
| If Tesla waits until the competitors are quiet, it's too
| late. "We're almost as good as our competitor" is not a
| helpful selling strategy for cars. For most consumers, a car
| is a long-term (4-8 years) commitment, bought on a very
| reputational basis.
| LargeTomato wrote:
| Tesla struggles with poor build quality and a lot of owners
| don't expect that, especially if they only listen to Elon
| Musk. Fixing the sounds won't sell more Teslas but a higher
| quality car would have already addressed them.
| seadan83 wrote:
| Adding to peer comments, being perceived as a low or high
| quality brand does have a strong material impact to a
| business. It's the difference between, "Oh, you have a
| Tesla!" to, "Oh. You have a Tesla.."
| rijx wrote:
| Would you have delayed the first release to tackle these
| sounds? If so, any day not shipping products is a day closer to
| going bankrupt.
|
| If you "fix" these sounds in v2, then you'll still need to
| explain them in the manual for v1 owners.
|
| Ultimately it's not really a bug. People aren't used to cars
| being so quiet so some minor new sounds suddenly stand out.
| sigmoid10 wrote:
| Sound design is an important part for many other
| manufacturers. There are literally people who's job it is to
| make sure that things like the "thump" of a closing door
| sounds good and on-brand. Though to be fair it's kind of an
| outgrowth of legacy car manufacturers who need to sell tiny
| bits of progress to stay relevant.
| dmix wrote:
| You mean when you physically close a car door they might
| shape the internal sound dynamics in either the frame or
| inside the door or adding some surface layer to the door
| itself?
| fragmede wrote:
| Both, and more. The hardware/software in the latch itself
| gets tuned to make the "thump" the "thump", and not a
| "thunk".
| ComplexSystems wrote:
| Do you think it took less than a day to implement "ludicrous"
| mode?
| ranman wrote:
| > Every single one of these could be engineered away.
|
| You clearly didn't read half of the article. 50% of these are
| purposeful chimes.
|
| Also, why? What is the value of making a compressor or fan more
| quiet on the 3? It would be much better to lower the cost.
| Worry about the sound on the higher end vehicles but let the 3
| be low cost.
| dmix wrote:
| Especially considering the alternative people are coming from
| is a loud very noisy machine with lots of moving parts, the
| fact it makes any sounds is probably not a big deal in the
| sum of things. Maybe eventually as everyone is in EVs this
| will be something people notice/care about in a competitive
| product way and you could or try to eliminate or shape the
| sounds to be more pleasing beyond. It'd probably make
| iteration more expensive if it became a requirement.
|
| Most of the time they operate with lots of ambient noise of
| the tires on the road and outside the car which probably
| makes a lot of these barely audible or noticeable.
| janoc wrote:
| It is a matter of priorities. If that was a high priced Bentley
| where the customer doesn't expect anything but the best for
| their money, sure, go ahead.
|
| But for a Model 3 where you need to carefully manage costs or
| you will either price yourself out of the market (and Tesla is
| already at the high end of it!) or go bankrupt I think you will
| have much bigger fish to fry than dealing with such noises.
|
| You also obviously don't understand the engineering decisions -
| e.g. having the high voltage always on is not possible/allowed.
| It is a legal requirement because it must be possible to
| disable the high voltage circuit when doing maintenance on the
| car - or in the case of an accident. And it needs to switch off
| the moment the airbags activate, it is not only there for the
| firemen to turn off.
|
| Also having the high voltage circuit off when the car is parked
| reduces the risks of fire should anything happen (malfunction,
| another vehicle crashes into a parked Tesla, etc.)
|
| Manual lever is of no use in such situations. Pyrofuses Tesla
| already has.
| mkoubaa wrote:
| I don't agree. Less noise means less vibration and harshness
| which means more mechanical reliability. It is economical to
| pursue at all price points.
| londons_explore wrote:
| > having the high voltage always on is not possible/allowed.
|
| I am aware of no law requiring that...
|
| Plenty of other high voltage things are always on - for
| example the outlets in your living room are always live even
| if you aren't using the room.
|
| The electrical danger of your house would be reduced by
| turning them off when you weren't in the room, but we decided
| it wasn't worth the complexity/cost to do so for the tiny
| benefit.
|
| Electrical contractors in cars are in the same position IMO.
| It should be energised once in the factory, and then remain
| energised for the life of the car. Car service garages can
| have tools to de-energise and re-energise the HV system if
| necessary - rather like such tools exist to gas and degas
| aircon systems.
| jowea wrote:
| Don't you think customers want the audio feedback that
| everything is working fine?
| annoyingnoob wrote:
| The brake pedal does not have to make noise for me to know
| the brakes are working. The pads do not have to clunk. There
| does not need to be a thunk to the contacts opening on the
| battery when I park for me to know the car is parked. There
| is a difference between convenience acknowledgements and
| mechanical parts being clunky, they are all put together
| here.
|
| Kind of shows where Tesla put its focus, and that there is
| work to do on future models. People used to higher end cars
| tend to notice and maybe not like the extra clunky bits,
| everything should just work smoothly and quietly.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > People used to higher end cars tend to notice and maybe
| not like the extra clunky bits, everything should just work
| smoothly and quietly
|
| That's kind of funny. Higher end cars are where you most
| commonly find fixed caliper brakes, and we are 100% used to
| the little noises they make. What's unusual here is Tesla
| choosing fixed calipers for an appliance car. So now we
| have people used to driving Priuses being exposed to
| mechanical sounds they're not familiar with.
|
| That and electric cars are so quiet that you're going to
| hear things that are drowned out by an engine on other
| cars.
| hedora wrote:
| The government-mandated "safety" tone that EV's play at low
| speed was invented by a marketing department. They wanted to be
| able to force everyone to play their audio logos.
|
| Fast-forward a decade, and the bought-off regulators left for
| industry. The remaining transportation safety people in the US
| realized the tones are useless, since the sounds are not
| standardized and are therefore ambiguous and ignorable.
|
| So, moving forward, they'll standardize the noise, defeating
| its only practical purpose (branding). Sadly, they didn't
| revisit whether it was actually necessary or helpful in the
| first place.
|
| Our pre-tone EV makes plenty of noise at low speed due to
| various servos, capacitor whine, drivetrain gears/friction, and
| so on.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Newer cars don't make as much noise. My 2019 Model 3 was a
| popping banging noisemaker at the supercharger. My 2023 Model 3
| barely makes any sounds at all. So they've clearly done some
| work to lower the sounds.
|
| > The clunk noise from brakes could be engineered away by using
| stainless steel spring clips to prevent the pads being able to
| wiggle around in the calipers (used by many manufacturers
| already).
|
| I've owned a lot of performance cars, and I don't know of any
| that didn't make noise. You're thinking of floating calipers,
| which are quieter and what most appliance cars use. Tesla is
| using fixed calipers, which most manufacturers only put on
| their performance trims. Making a bit of noise is just the
| nature of that design.
|
| And the brakes aren't Tesla designs anyway, they're Brembo just
| like almost every other OE fixed caliper setup. I think Brembo
| knows how to make brakes.
| jerrygenser wrote:
| Love the expected noise while in ludicrous mode
| junon wrote:
| > Cabin Noise during Acceleration with Ludicrous Enabled
|
| Cute little Easter egg.
| foobarbecue wrote:
| "You may hear this noise when you press the accelerator pedal
| with Ludicrous (if equipped) enabled. See for more information."
|
| See what?
| krunck wrote:
| Are there many car-hypochondriacs?
| Angostura wrote:
| The entry for 'Cabin Noise during Acceleration with Ludicrous
| Enabled' is very droll
| peterleiser wrote:
| Playing the sounds "Navigate on Autopilot" through "Traffic-Aware
| Cruise Control" sounds like the song "Oh! Susanna"
| warner25 wrote:
| I'd love to see the same collection of sounds and authoritative
| explanations for the Prius. I own a Gen II, and it makes a lot of
| interesting noises. After 15+ years I've learned what sounds are
| normal, but I still don't know what most of them are.
| smeej wrote:
| I think I would happily pay money for an archive of high-quality
| recordings of what various _problems_ sound like, in a variety of
| cars.
|
| It would really be nice not to have to go in and try to imitate
| the sound to my mechanic, _and_ it would help give me an idea
| what the repair ought to cost.
|
| I've spent thousands of dollars on misdiagnosed (or
| misrepresented) "repairs," and it would be great to get a
| diagnosis from the mechanic, look it up, and say, "No, it doesn't
| sound a thing like that."
| water-your-self wrote:
| I have fond memories of car talk on NPR.
| graphe wrote:
| https://youtu.be/RKT-sKtR970 Check out this engine sound
| simulator. Perhaps a preconfiguration of this?
| kasdi wrote:
| After listening to a few dozen chimes and confusing some of them
| I can't help but wonder why we accept technology to communicate
| to us in this crude way. Why not make it talk to us, "too fast",
| "too close", "hand brake active", etc.?
|
| Might want to keep chimes for emergency warnings where speech
| would be too slow, although there's an argument to be made that
| speech would still be better, since jarring chimes might scare
| you so much that you take just as much if not more time until
| you've identified the emergency.
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