[HN Gopher] Binance founder Changpeng Zhao agrees to step down, ...
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Binance founder Changpeng Zhao agrees to step down, plead guilty
Author : himaraya
Score : 440 points
Date : 2023-11-21 17:20 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.wsj.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.wsj.com)
| colesantiago wrote:
| Good.
|
| May the entire of crypto be brought down with it.
| ivanmontillam wrote:
| If you could please elaborate, for the free curious spirits of
| HN.
|
| Crypto has brought good in underdeveloped countries like
| Venezuela and Argentina. Venezuelans use USDT to purchase real,
| physical goods. Sometimes groceries.
| AlexandrB wrote:
| Have any numbers on this? The only numbers I could find are
| very modest[1]. IIRC Zeke Faux, the author of "Number Go Up"
| also noted that adoption is very illusory - like the "Accepts
| Bitcoin" stickers you see all over the place Canada when
| there's no functioning bitcoin payment processing inside.
|
| But besides all that, I think it's criminal to leave people
| in underdeveloped countries at the whims of unaccountable
| central-bank-style institutions like USDT. What will
| proponents of this crap say if/when USDT collapses? "They
| knew the risks"? Is the "crypto community" going to bail out
| people who invested their life savings in this garbage[2]?
|
| [1] https://www.chainalysis.com/blog/latin-america-
| cryptocurrenc...
|
| [2] https://old.reddit.com/r/AxieInfinity/comments/10ovcoo/lo
| st_...
| keep_reading wrote:
| I think it's criminal to leave people in underdeveloped
| countries at the whims of unaccountable central-bank-style
| institutions like Federal Reserve.
| Kranar wrote:
| How does this in any way deter crypto, if anything it
| strengthened it. Binance continues to operate, Zhao won't face
| any actual penalty and continues to be a billionaire.
|
| Seems to me like Binance and crypto is the winner here.
| AlexandrB wrote:
| "This is good for Bitcoin"
| almost_usual wrote:
| > May the entire of crypto be brought down with it
|
| Pretty hard to get rid of decentralized systems.
| colesantiago wrote:
| Crypto is pretty centralised thanks to these exchanges and
| many blockchains running solely on AWS such as Ethereum.
|
| Crypto being 'decentralised' is a well known myth.
| lawn wrote:
| You don't need exchanges for cryptocurrencies to work, they
| just make onboarding easier.
| everfree wrote:
| Ethereum running "solely" on AWS is a myth. If AWS were
| shut down, the chain would continue as usual.
| wonderwonder wrote:
| Anyone in the variety of South American countries experiencing
| massive inflation would have been worlds better if they had
| just parked their money in BTC. Crypto is full of scams but
| there is also a world of positives and opportunity there.
| n2d4 wrote:
| They would've also been worlds better if they had parked
| their money in Gamestop, or honestly even in a casino, but
| that doesn't make it a sound investment
| hi5eyes wrote:
| why does orange reddit always have comments like this
| whenever coins get mentioned
| zarzavat wrote:
| "Orange reddit" was one of the first places that Bitcoin
| was discussed. Consequently there's an awful lot of
| people here who know _exactly_ how much they missed out,
| and express this by being saltier than dead sea whenever
| the topic comes up. The accepted wisdom on HN, when the
| bitcoin price was in the single digits, was that it was a
| "tulip bubble" and you should absolutely not buy it under
| any circumstances.
| boeingUH60 wrote:
| And many people were scammed and lost their savings to
| BTC and other crypto schemes. It's funny how the Ponzi
| promoters always forget that part when touting whatever
| cooked-up reason they promote crypto for.
|
| But sure, in a sector where most of the biggest names are
| fraudsters, some people still manage to be adherents.
| keep_reading wrote:
| These people were scammed by humans, not by bitcoin.
| wonderwonder wrote:
| The nigerian prince scam has been running on fiat for
| decades
| methodical wrote:
| The accepted wisdom is still that it's a bubble and you
| should not buy it, the price going up does not
| necessarily mean that the price isn't higher than it
| should be. Projecting everybody who disagrees with your
| viewpoint as somebody who is angry they missed out is
| simply a quick way to hand-wave away people who disagree
| with your crypto-is-the-future dogma. I wasn't in the
| early adopters per-say but I did do some crapcoin trading
| back in the day and made a decent sum at the time, and
| yet I still hold crypto and blockchain technology as a
| whole as almost entirely pointless. I have still yet to
| hear any real valid use of the technology that is better
| than existing/alternative solutions. It speaks volumes
| that the people who would know the most about the
| technology (software engineers, who are prevalent here),
| are the ones who (outside of the general public) believe
| that the technology is largely pointless, if not
| downright idiotic.
| jgilias wrote:
| I find it really hard to reconcile this viewpoint with
| reality. I personally know businesses who use stablecoins
| for international money transfers because it's just
| faster and cheaper.
|
| Also, every month or so an article pops up here where
| either some business is rekt because their payment
| processor's automated process kicked them off, or
| someone's bank account got closed in a similar way
| screwing them.
|
| Yet the only way to self custody electronic money and
| transact without intermediaries is somehow 'pointless and
| idiotic'.
| hef19898 wrote:
| What kind of businesses?
| jgilias wrote:
| One is a run of the mill software engineering
| consultancy, the other a startup making a development as
| a service platform where they link companies needing work
| with engineers in the developing world.
| methodical wrote:
| The key differentiating factor in your hypothetical
| reasons why traditional finance is inferior to defi is
| that there are systems to remediate the exact issues you
| mentioned, whereas if you send your crypto to the wrong
| address- it's gone. If you lose your seed words to your
| wallet and can't access it, or someone else gets access
| to them- it's gone. If you get scammed- it's gone.
| Literally all of these things (which are a /feature/ of
| the tech!) make it essentially unusable for any business
| that isn't looking for an adrenaline rush. What I love
| most about all of these shortcomings of the technology is
| how much people who push it minimize all of these issues
| by saying that it's user error, and people who utilize
| good practices won't have these issues. It's almost as if
| all of these people have literally never talked to a real
| person. No regular person cares or would ever want to
| care about hard wallets versus alternatives, seed words,
| verifying addresses, and avoiding phishing scams. All of
| these issues which can be mitigated by being technically
| inclined fall flat on their face with any person who just
| wants to send money to their grandson or pay a friend for
| dinner.
| wonderwonder wrote:
| To be fair, people get scammed over wire transfers in
| traditional finance all the time
| jgilias wrote:
| The reasons are really not hypothetical. That being said
| though, I don't personally believe that crypto will or
| necessarily needs to totally replace all fiat usage. It's
| more along the lines of the realization that the
| possibility to have electronic money kept and transmitted
| outside of the fractionally reserved banking system is
| immediately useful.
|
| Given the state of crypto adoption now, I can't imagine a
| non-dystopian future a century from now where what we now
| call crypto or digital assets haven't become a very
| boring and non-remarkable part of the civilizational
| fabric.
|
| I can imagine dystopian futures where that's the case
| though. One would be where the infrastructure we use to
| run crypto on (the internet, telecommunications) doesn't
| exist. Another is where all the regulatory environments
| for digital assets that currently exist (UK, EU, Canada,
| etc) have been totally rolled back, and self-custody has
| been made a criminal offense. Probably some type of
| society straight out of hunger games.
| lottin wrote:
| I first read about Bitcoin on Slashdot. I thought it was
| a stupid idea back then, and I think it's a stupid idea
| now. Buying bitcoin in 2008 would have been a terrible
| investment decision regardless of whatever result it
| might have produced. If you don't understand that an
| investment decision can't be evaluated after the fact on
| the basis of the outcome of single random event you know
| nothing about investing.
| hi5eyes wrote:
| downvoting just makes everyone on orange reddit seem
| saltier
|
| but keep commenting the same dialogue prompt the salt is
| pretty entertaining
| unclebucknasty wrote:
| Reflecting on how crypto once fit with the HN ethos. Hard to
| say where the community is now, partly because I don't spend as
| much time here. But it definitely seems to not be the darling
| it once was.
|
| Don't know if this is because it's mainstreamed in a way that
| makes it less "hacker"-appealing (quotes intentional), the HN
| community has changed, or because crypto went full crypto-bro
| so hard.
|
| May be some combination.
| gizajob wrote:
| Probably because the brave new world of cryptopunk anonymity
| and liberation has turned into this mess of fraud and in-
| your-face centralisation and crime.
| methodical wrote:
| I have to admit I do find it pretty funny when the people
| who have touted blockchain and cryptocurrency as great
| because of its decentralization have discovered /why/ a
| central authority is incredibly important in finance. All
| of the crypto pumpers start crying for government support
| when they're the ones who get fleeced, when that's
| literally built into the technology as a feature.
| suoduandao3 wrote:
| I imagine HN in particular is also quite dominated by
| traditional US finance.
| ravenstine wrote:
| I honestly don't remember the time you are describing. As far
| as I can remember, the most prevalent voices about crypto
| from HN have been from the naysayers by far. The craze just
| simply isn't there anymore, which is a very good thing.
| People who refuse to try and understand cryptocurrencies but
| tout fanciful things about them shouldn't be the ones
| representing them.
| tnel77 wrote:
| And why would that be?
| pawelduda wrote:
| Because he's salty about it, the comment doesn't point at
| anything else
| colesantiago wrote:
| Name any positive valid use case that crypto does better
| than the current financial system.
| glerk wrote:
| Uncensorable money across borders
| colesantiago wrote:
| This is a perfect use case for criminals and ransomware
| gangs which is certainly why crypto is popular for these
| groups.
|
| Especially for funding the North Korean regime.
|
| https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-18/how-north-korea-
| makes...
| afroboy wrote:
| You so realise that cash and gold are used by those
| groups as first choice?
| colesantiago wrote:
| Except crypto is _way easier_ for criminals to move funds
| around better than what you 've suggested.
| glerk wrote:
| Cool, but that's not what you asked, and you're moving
| the goalposts. I suggest you slow down and think about
| the pros/cons/tradeoffs instead of automatically going
| down the decision tree of this argument.
| colesantiago wrote:
| What you've suggested is not a positive use case at all
| but sure it's perfect for criminals.
|
| Great job.
| keep_reading wrote:
| Domestic and international settlement speed
| colesantiago wrote:
| Wrong. Wise does this better than crypto.
| J_Shelby_J wrote:
| Your comment presupposes every human exists in your
| current, healthy, financial system.
| colesantiago wrote:
| lol that's not an answer.
| mcintyre1994 wrote:
| Visa are using it for cross-border settlements between
| issuer and merchant banks: https://usa.visa.com/about-
| visa/newsroom/press-releases.rele...
| seydor wrote:
| It won't though
| pwb25 wrote:
| SEC is a joke . Failed to stop FTX or donor scams, but then make
| up accusations against a working exchange
| boeingUH60 wrote:
| He'll pay $4.3bn in fines and likely be sentenced to probation or
| short home confinement instead of prison...in exchange for not
| being a US fugitive.
|
| He'll step down from Binance and live the rest of his life with
| billions. Sounds like a good deal :)
| ivanmontillam wrote:
| For a purposeful human being, that is also a miserable life.
|
| Pretty much like you cannot eat your favorite food anymore and
| have to settle with "the next best" (philanthropy, maybe?)
| boeingUH60 wrote:
| Haha, I was actually referring to being a US fugitive as the
| miserable life, which Zhao obviously wants to avoid.
| rnk wrote:
| Zhao can do new things with his billions. He can start new
| companies, work in new markets if he wants. If he can
| escape China's clutches with his money, I assume he can
| travel the world.
| hyperfuturism wrote:
| I think he's relieved that he won't get lifetime prison, and
| even years in prison.
|
| Living at the top, to having no freedom must be very, very
| hard to stomach. I would take the deal too if I was CZ.
|
| Giving up some "power-grab addiction" for 100% freedom (and
| being a billionaire still), seems very good for him.
| fbdab103 wrote:
| Adam Neumann is still getting huge financing. There is always
| a way to keep hustling.
| lenerdenator wrote:
| ... for now. As interest rates stay above stupidly-low
| levels, he's not going to be able to pull the capital he
| used to.
| RationalDino wrote:
| What billions will he wind up with?
|
| Binance did a lot of fraud and money laundering. Clawbacks are
| coming. There will be no fortune when the legal system is done
| with him.
| shawabawa3 wrote:
| It's obviously just speculation but someone in his position
| could very easily siphon off a few million in BTC/crypto at
| the very least, and almost impossible to detect/trace if done
| well
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| https://www.chainalysis.com/law-enforcement/
|
| https://www.chainalysis.com/regulators/
| saalweachter wrote:
| The second half of money laundering is you need a way to
| pretend to have income from a plausible source.
|
| People will ask questions like "How do you pay for your
| groceries?" and "Where did you find the money to buy a $37M
| penthouse?" and your paper trail needs to convince people
| the answer isn't "With the billions of dollars I
| embezzled."
| bnchrch wrote:
| I understand your point but I feel like even a 10 year
| old could come up with 100 plausible excuses.
|
| Many of them end with "Consultant", "Collector", or
| "Trader".
| saalweachter wrote:
| For whom did you consult? What collection did you sell?
| What trades did you make, with what starting capital?
|
| If you can't answer those questions -- questions the tax
| man at least will expect you to answer, and probably
| other people as well -- you might as well say "I found
| money in the street."
| EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote:
| Husband :)
| jawiggins wrote:
| > What billions will he wind up with?
|
| You can pretty trivially check Binance's declared funds here:
| https://www.binance.com/en/proof-of-reserves
|
| By my calculations they have >$6 billion in excess of
| customer deposits. Since he owns Binance, he principally owns
| those profits.
| fhinson wrote:
| Perhaps this was the final takedown necessary to pave the way for
| BTC ETF approval.
| janmo wrote:
| Not before Tether has been taken down
| roland35 wrote:
| yup Tether is the biggest fake money printing machine that
| keeps BTC afloat
| TacticalCoder wrote:
| I think so too however it looks like they may have printed
| their (counterfeited) way into solvency.
|
| Basically: buy cheap BTCs, print shitload of tethers, sell
| BTCs for real USD to the tune of tens of billions and now
| store these real USD in short term US treasuries (they
| don't own chinese treasuries anymore) bringing in 5% and
| more.
|
| They're claiming they now have excess money (!) to back
| their tether due to the fact that they collect 5% or more
| of interest on the short-term treasuries they have.
|
| Put it this way: even if they printed $40bn out of their
| arses out of $80bn of tether, the $40bn of actual USD
| they'd have would still net them $2bn a year in interest.
| That'd still be a big hole but...
|
| What if they printed "only" 10 bn out of thin air out of 80
| bn: they'd have near 70 bn bringing in 3.5 bn yearly at the
| moment.
|
| They don't give any of the interest back to USDT (tether)
| holders.
|
| So if they printed "only" 10 bn out of their arses, in less
| than three years they'd have these 10 bn for real on
| interest alone.
|
| It's still criminal (I guess) but it may not be "0% of
| tether are backed".
|
| People have tried to run the maths on how much money
| entered the cryptocurrency world (with Coinbase giving a
| huge hint).
|
| Centre (Circle+Coinbase) has really $24 bn backing their
| USDC coin (they publish the individual US short term
| treasuries bill number).
|
| USDT (tether) is _much_ older than USDC.
|
| Did they cheat? Most certainly.
|
| Did they "fake it 'till they made it", helped, by sheer
| luck, by interest rates going like crazy?
|
| I think it's _possible_.
| ukoki wrote:
| I think the fraudulent route to solvency is even simpler
| than that:
|
| 1. Make Tethers out of thin air and sell for BTC
|
| 2. BTC price goes up because crypto boom
|
| 3. Sell enough BTC for USD cover the fake Tethers you
| made up in step 1
|
| 4. Balance sheet now looks legit, and you even have money
| left over to buy yachts for everyone
| kylebenzle wrote:
| The ETF will have to be approved BEFORE Tether is brought
| down. The powers that be need a way to control the price, an
| ETF is the easiest but until then they have Tether.
|
| Why else would the US allow the largest counterfeit money
| printer to continue for long?
| lavezzi wrote:
| > Why else would the US allow the largest counterfeit money
| printer to continue for long?
|
| Incompetence.
| rchaud wrote:
| The US' incompetency usually doesn't extend to protecting
| the primacy of the dollar.
| halfcat wrote:
| > Why else would the US allow the largest counterfeit money
| printer to continue for long?
|
| Are you taking about tether or the fed?
| crypt1d wrote:
| While I can see how it helps clear the bad image of the
| industry, the two are not directly related. The ETF was/is
| going to get approved regardless.
| smt88 wrote:
| How does it help clear the bad image? There are seemingly no
| large crypto orgs left that are untouched by criminal
| convictions.
| jgilias wrote:
| There are no criminal charges involving Coinbase or Kraken.
| Litigation by SEC yes, criminal charges no. There's a very
| meaningful difference there. The first type can ruin your
| business, the second put you behind bars too.
| aswanson wrote:
| Not your keys, not your crypto. Never use exchanges.
| lavezzi wrote:
| No large crypto orgs left? Tether has a market cap of $88bn
| alone.
| grey-area wrote:
| Tether has been convicted of fraud.
| rchaud wrote:
| If that meant anything the USDT to USD peg would collapse
| as it could no longer be redeemed for fiat.
| Enogoloyo wrote:
| So you tell me someone has 88bn us dollar or real assets
| somewhere stored away safely?
|
| Somehow I doubt that. That would mean someone invested
| this in a save and independent way with enough return to
| keep it inflation save and apparently has no other idea
| on how to invest that even more magical.
|
| How is tether really pegged safely?
| lavezzi wrote:
| I think you are preaching to the choir here, maybe I
| misread the intent of the OP above me.
| pants2 wrote:
| That's why the ETFs are coming from non-crypto orgs -
| Blackrock, Fidelity, etc.
| mlrtime wrote:
| Where do you think they get their BTC to fund the ETFs?
| WinstonSmith84 wrote:
| There are seemingly no large tradfi bank or organization
| left that are untouched by criminal convictions. So then
| what?
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| How will the BTC ETF even work?
|
| I'm not super savvy with money but why would anybody buy an ETF
| and pay their fees when the assets in the ETF don't grow or
| give dividends? How will they secure those assets? Cold wallet
| in a vault? What happens if they do their audit and the backing
| coins aren't there (stolen) or there's a hardware failure on
| the cold wallet?
| landemva wrote:
| Like gold ETFs, they can do BTC synthetically via futures or
| have a custodian take custody.
|
| The interesting ETF will be for Ethereum because a custodian
| can possibly stake it and earn yield. ETH can earn within the
| basic protocol.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Right but gold isn't easy to steal. Bitcoin can disappear
| from a cosmic ray, hardware failure, remote theft, software
| glitch, etc.
| landemva wrote:
| Sounds like digital assets are not for you. Gold and
| silver coin in your pocket are a time-tested approach.
| meowkit wrote:
| Gold isn't easy to steal because there are centuries
| worth of physical security demands that have evolved to
| protect it. Its relatively easy to take a chunk of metal
| from someone otherwise.
|
| Nothing you listed applies to bitcoin besides remote
| theft. The whole point of a blockchain is be fault
| tolerant in the face of those real failures. Remote theft
| occurs from a failure to secure your private keys. That's
| human error and will be resolved in the same way as gold
| with... custodians aka a bank.
| skywhopper wrote:
| Gold isn't easy to steal because it's heavy, and the more
| you steal, the more it weighs. There's a big difference
| between stealing an ounce of gold and stealing five tons
| of gold. But there's no difference in "weight" between
| stealing 0.1 BTC and 10,000 BTC.
|
| Also, securing physical assets is much easier than
| securing digital assets.
| spacehunt wrote:
| You don't have to put all 10,000 BTC in a single wallet.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| You can get your coins back if your cold wallet is
| destroyed?
| psychlops wrote:
| Yes, if only one of a 2 of 3 account was lost. A person
| having a single seed phrase on a single cold wallet would
| lose coins and would probably benefit from using a
| service to educate them.
| rahen wrote:
| If you have stored your seed securely (in a safe,
| preferably engraved on stainless steel), then no problem,
| you can re-generate your private key on a new wallet from
| it.
|
| If you haven't written down your seed before generating
| your private key and also lost your private key, your
| money is lost. Thank you for this sacrifice for the
| common good, but you will want to educate yourself better
| next time.
| inthewoods wrote:
| Oh where there's a will (and a profit) there's a way. See
| this story about bags of nickels stored turned out to be
| filled with rocks.
|
| https://www.businessinsider.com/jpmorgans-nickel-bags-
| turned...
| olalonde wrote:
| You can laser engrave a Bitcoin wallet seed (24 words) on
| titanium, store it in multiple locations and never enter
| your seed on a networked computer to prevent remote
| theft. You can also use a passphrase on top of your seed,
| and store it separately, so that even if the seed is
| physically stolen, the wallet won't be recoverable
| without the passphrase.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| For further protection, store those titanium blocks in a
| "portable Hole" so they exist only in the Astral plane:
|
| https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/4699-portable-hole
| thisgoesnowhere wrote:
| And when everyone becomes super paranoid and keeps their
| money from participating in the economy then we will
| transcend.
| rahen wrote:
| Your coins aren't stored on a computer but on a
| distributed ledger around the globe, secured with strong
| crypto, Merkle trees and proofs of work. Your (hopefully
| cold) wallet only stores your private key.
|
| Gold is hard to transport, easy to confiscate and hard to
| divide, thus difficult to use as a currency. None of
| those apply to Bitcoin. Well, unless someone is dumb
| enough to leave his money on an exchange.
| pawelduda wrote:
| Coinbase would be the custodian
| landemva wrote:
| The big guys/gals/peoples at Fidelity and BlackRock also
| want a piece of the crypto action.
|
| https://decrypt.co/97795/blackrock-handle-circle-usdc-
| cash-r...
|
| 'BlackRock will become "a primary asset manager of USDC
| cash reserves"--the fiat currency backing the Circle-issued
| USDC stablecoin.'
| tock wrote:
| I believe the fee = the ETF holds bitcoin securely for you
| instead of you having to deal with wallets.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Yes, how does the ETF hold and secure the coins is what I'm
| asking.
| thinkharderdev wrote:
| I have no idea, but I assume that if they get hacked they
| are liable for that. If the ETF is run by Bob's Bitcoin
| ETF incorporated in the Virgin Islands then that's not
| worth anything because there are no other assets to cover
| losses. But if it's BlackRock (or some other large US
| money manager) then they have plenty of other assets to
| pay out.
| scrlk wrote:
| Blackrock will be using Coinbase as their custodian:
| https://www.coinbase.com/prime/custody
|
| It's the institutional version of their Vault feature:
| https://www.coinbase.com/vault
|
| > 98% of digital currency is stored totally offline, in
| geographically distributed safe deposit boxes and
| physical vaults.
| chollida1 wrote:
| They use a custodian like Coinbase or Gemini.
|
| The ETF then takes out an insurance policy incase the
| custodian loses they BTC they hold on the ETF's behalf.
| tock wrote:
| Most likely some sort of cold wallet. With some in hot
| wallets for liquidity. There are many crypto custodians
| who do this.
|
| Now they do have to design redundancies for the keys. eg.
| they should not lose access to the assets because say
| they made it too safe and cant find the keys anymore :p
|
| It's funny because it happened with Prime Trust a crypto
| custodian. But I'm sure a company like BlackRock can and
| will do better.
| 0xdeee wrote:
| Well, BTC isn't some asset that doesn't have a track record
| of growth. Take a look at the rate of growth in last decade.
| Yes if you look in specific timeframes it will look like a
| wreck. but looking at a bigger picture it makes sense. And it
| is given that it will keep growing similarly in the long term
| (Why?, thats a separate lengthy conversation the answer to
| which also answers why some of largest finance players are
| rushing to put out an ETF of BTC)
|
| Coming to the security and safety part. In theory, BTC was
| made with a intension to be easily usable and accessible.
| Once you understand it, its pretty simple and straightforward
| (even easier than using a bank's service). No level of
| hardware wallet failure will compromise the funds because the
| funds are not in the wallet rather the record of the funds
| are in 100s of thousands of BTC nodes that is being run by
| miners and other enthusiasts. The real threat may be letting
| people that share OTPs to scammer handle their private key
| and seed phrase. Thats where custodians like coinbase comes
| in.
|
| And to the point of how to make sure the fund held by
| ETF/Custodian is actually there or not, This can be easily
| verified. Tt is a public ledger and anyone with the public
| key can see how much funds are held in the wallet. This
| aspect of transparency is one of the key selling point of
| BTC.
|
| I would recommend a short and interesting read - "Inventing
| Bitcoin".
| Enogoloyo wrote:
| If BTC would always increase in value than it's doomed from
| the start as it means people starting late have to pay much
| more than an early person.
|
| This means rich late people will never migrate or buy BTC
| ETF ever.
|
| It's like always buying at the increase
| huitzitziltzin wrote:
| Amazing that it's impossible to tell whether you are a real
| crypto booster or joking at their expense.
| npalli wrote:
| "True crypto has never been tried"
| arcticbull wrote:
| I too enjoy the no true Scotsman fallacy
| notJim wrote:
| I dunno, people always invoke it in situations that are
| similar, but not quite applicable.
| from-nibly wrote:
| No true "No true Scotsman fallacy"
| akoboldfrying wrote:
| Eh... Folks are just butthurt that they didn't get in on
| the original Scotsman like I did.
|
| They poured scorn then, but I'm up to my eyeballs in
| bagpipes now
| robocat wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman - I've
| been meaning to look it up for a while.
| optimalsolver wrote:
| No true ScotsCoin.
| toyg wrote:
| Surely it's BitScoin
| Terr_ wrote:
| That branding may be rough, if ScotsCoin enthusiasts
| harbor deep grudges against BritCoin.
| cozzyd wrote:
| Now I wonder, is https://scotcoinproject.com/ a joke or
| not?
| kylebenzle wrote:
| XMR and BCH have been working great for a decade and in my
| mind are the ONLY Cryptocurrency projects that are not
| outright scams or digital ponzi schemes.
|
| It's odd how clear the picture is but how many people have
| been fooled by fakes. What other industry is 99% scams and
| only 1% legitimate?
| ZoomerCretin wrote:
| It's nice to see level-headed crypto optimism here. It's
| disheartening seeing bulls who have long since stopped
| pretending their favorite coin has any utility beyond
| being a speculative asset and a get-rich-quick scheme
| given its poor transaction rate, or that the features
| they've bolted on will make it valuable, none of which
| make it viable as a currency.
|
| Why would anyone bother with Bitcoin?
|
| If you want to avoid financial regulations in
| transmitting value across borders or purchase black
| market goods and services, you're going to be caught
| since all/most Bitcoin is KYCd and impossible to keep
| private, unlike Monero.
|
| If you want to avoid transaction fees, you're SOL since
| it's at $10 right now versus $0.06 for Monero.
|
| If you want a store of value, it's poor because it's
| volatile, not backed, and theft is not reversible, unlike
| virtually any other regulated security.
|
| If you want to make legal purchases with it, any
| transaction costs $10 and can take hours or days, and is
| not reversible if you are defrauded, unlike USD.
|
| Bitcoin has no value proposition beyond being a
| speculative asset and a Ponzi scheme for early buyers.
| rahen wrote:
| Be mindful of potential biases. Monero is rightfully
| highly regarded for its privacy, but you may be
| overlooking certain aspects:
|
| - Unlike Bitcoin, Monero's monetary issuance is not
| auditable, which could prove a major problem in case of
| an attack, potentially leading to inflation.
|
| - Monero faces blockchain bloat issues due to its ring
| signatures. It cannot scale gracefully.
|
| - Privacy and transaction cost concerns with Bitcoin have
| largely been addressed by Lightning and potentially other
| upcoming layer 2 solutions. A lot of work is being done
| here. If you are technologically inclined, you can also
| participate:
| https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-
| dev/20...
|
| - KYC happens on exchanges. Buy your BTC on decentralized
| platforms like Bisq or RoboSats and be done with KYC.
|
| - A private-only ledger can pose challenges when
| transaction notarization is necessary. Bitcoin lets you
| choose between a private L2 transaction or a public
| blockchain transaction.
|
| That said, I love Monero and am glad it exists.
| kylebenzle wrote:
| Has there been any Bitcoin "L2" that is actually
| functional. Last I checked the inventor of the most
| popular L2 said it was a failure.
| rahen wrote:
| Lightning has grown beyond its two original creators and
| now has a healthy community behind it. Worth mentioning
| are Rusty Russel (iptables, netfilter, some network
| layers of the Linux kernel) and the fine folks at Acinq
| (acinq.co).
|
| Yes, it still has some rough edges but it's now mostly
| usable. https://medium.com/coinmonks/lightning-
| network-2018-to-2023-...
|
| Besides, about 80% of transactions within exchanges are
| actually off-chain, so this is nothing new.
| tomcar288 wrote:
| all i can say that, is you better have everything in
| stocks, housing and gold, otherwise you're going to have
| one sad retirement.
| mst wrote:
| zcash seems to be going in an interesting direction,
| though whether they'll actually get anywhere remains to
| be seen.
| asterix_pano wrote:
| Why BCH and not NANO? You like to wait and pay fees?
| ipaddr wrote:
| There are hundreds of coins some copied from bitcoin and
| slightly changed like litecoin.
|
| The press has tricked you into believing every coin aside
| from a few popular ones are scams. Dig deeper.
| vkou wrote:
| Ah, the classic 'do your own research.'
|
| If I dig deeper, and determine that <some shit coin> is a
| scam, well, I am just looking at the wrong one.
|
| If I dig deeper, and decide that it's not, and then get
| burned later, I should have done more due diligence.
|
| 'Digging deeper' in a minefield is, generally speaking,
| not great advice.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| Why are you downvoted? XMR is among the greatest
| cryptocurrencies. It's everything bitcoin was supposed to
| have been. The fact it's not in the top charts is proof
| of the irrationality of the market.
| vkou wrote:
| Or, perhaps, it's proof that the purpose of crypto in
| 2023[1] is not utility, it's line-goes-up.
|
| [1] And 2022, 2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, ...
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| Utility? It already works. I've gotten paid for services
| via monero.
|
| I'd be very happy if Monero somehow turned into the
| stable coin of crypto. It could just hover around
| $150-$200 forever.
| redox99 wrote:
| The problem with XMR is that it works _too well_ , so
| people are worried governments will ban it (thus the low
| price).
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| Let them ban it. That's the perfect test for the
| technology.
| bogota wrote:
| Not exactly. It is just pricing in the risk of the
| government making the on/off ramps impossible to access.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| There should not be any on-off ramps to begin with.
| People should just transact in XMR directly. That's what
| crypto was supposed to have been like.
| pavlov wrote:
| It's funny how true believers in communism and true
| believers in crypto talk exactly the same way nowadays.
|
| "FTX and Binance are not examples of true crypto!"
|
| "Soviet Union and Venezuela are not examples of true
| communism!"
| yieldcrv wrote:
| huh. both of those quotes are true for easily
| quantifiable reasons?
|
| you don't have be a believer in either to understand that
| objectively
| netrus wrote:
| It's a tautology, as no implementation of a concept will
| ever be equivalent to the pure concept. The real existing
| examples of implementations of concepts will still tell
| you something about the viability of the concept.
| codetrotter wrote:
| > no implementation of a concept will ever be equivalent
| to the pure concept.
|
| True crypto does exist.
|
| Bitcoin is true crypto.
|
| When I mine Bitcoin, and I use that Bitcoin to buy
| something from someone else, that is true crypto.
|
| When I sell something for Bitcoin, that is true crypto.
|
| When I exchange fiat for Bitcoin at a centralized
| exchange, and I successfully withdraw it to a self-
| custody wallet. That is acceptably close to true crypto.
|
| Same goes for Monero.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| standing committees are necessary parts of communism that
| always result in permanent authoritarian control of all
| people and all resources. humans don't have a way around
| that and that necessary phase is a prerequisite to the
| ideological phase. there is no evidence that it is worth
| pursuing given that irreconcilable implementation flaw.
|
| consumers choosing mismanaged companies are consumer
| discernment problems that have nothing to do with the
| sector they're involved in. specifically with crypto,
| centralized exchanges and brokerage experiences are not
| necessary parts of the crypto ecosystem and exist in
| parallel to other ways of getting fiat in and out of
| crypto, and other ways of getting exposure to the crypto
| ecosystem. many proponents of the crypto asset ecosystem
| have always sounded the alarm on those kinds of companies
| and actively track how much crypto is held by the
| companies or in self custody.
|
| analogies compare dissimilar things with common
| attributes, what is the common attribute between
| observers of these two concepts?
| psychlops wrote:
| FTX and Binance are exchanges, not cryptos. It's like
| confusing NYSE and NASDAQ with the stocks that they
| exchange.
| Enogoloyo wrote:
| The reason why people were investing in crypto was
| 'legimit' infrastructure providers like FTX and binance.
| jcpham2 wrote:
| I've been using Bitcoin for a solid decade and I never
| made an FTX or a Binance account- too many red flags:
| leverage, derivatives, lending, etc.
| spamizbad wrote:
| I mean has Venezuela ever claimed it was communist? I
| always thought it was socialist. Also its oldest standing
| communist party technically sits in opposition to Maduro.
| blululu wrote:
| FWIW The Soviet Union never stated that it was communist.
| They were officially socialist with the constitutional
| goal of establishing communism. for that matter the
| Mensheviks predate the Bolshaviks and always opposed
| Lenin.
| pavlov wrote:
| Khrushchev, enjoying a short-lived post-Stalin economic
| boom in the early 1960s, did proclaim that the Soviet
| Union would achieve communism by 1980:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism_in_20_years
|
| So for a while there was an actual date attached to the
| constitutional goal.
|
| I believe the deadline was quietly buried by his
| stagnation-oriented successors, but I'm not sure.
| klooney wrote:
| Saying that the Mensheviks predate the Bolsheviks is kind
| of odd- there was one political party, then they had a
| big fight and split in two. Menshevik literally means
| "minority" and Bolshevik "majority", that's how
| intertwined the two are.
| vkou wrote:
| By the time of the October Revolution, the Mensheviks
| were actually a majority, and were a significant faction
| in the Russian Provisional government. The Bolsheviks
| were not.
|
| The Bolsheviks were a minority, but controlled key
| elements of the army. After months of civil unrest and
| violence, they staged an armed coup.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| Cryptocurrencies are cryptocurrencies. Binance is an
| exchange, essentially a bank in disguise. They are not
| even in the same category.
| FFP999 wrote:
| Poe's Law and all.
| bfung wrote:
| Why does BTC need an ETF at all, doesn't that defeat the
| purpose of owning one's own wallets? Also... exchanges
| defeating the purpose of decentralization...
| chollida1 wrote:
| The simplest answer is that alot of people would like to hold
| BTC in a tax advantaged account and an ETF wrapper is the
| easiest way to do this.
|
| Others would like to buy it via retirement plans and having
| an ETF makes this doable.
|
| Those that want to hold BTC incase the US dollar collapses
| will hodl their own BTC.
|
| Those that want to hold BTC incase it really appreciates will
| hold it via an ETF in a tax advantaged account so they don't
| have to pay taxes on their gains, depending on the account
| type.
| vizzah wrote:
| and those few.. who still expect to use it for payments..?
| =) LOL.
| bfung wrote:
| Ah, nice! Applies regardless of what the underlying asset
| is ~ some good ole' tax engineering.
| thisgoesnowhere wrote:
| Just say exit liquidity. It's faster.
| rossdavidh wrote:
| The purpose of decentralization was defeated a long time ago,
| I'm afraid.
| bfung wrote:
| <sarcasm>I guess people trust Blackrock and CZ on setting
| BTC prices more than they trust the greenback</sarcasm>
|
| Also, CZ (pleads guilty to money laundering charges):
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38366729
| jpmattia wrote:
| > _Why does BTC need an ETF at all, doesn't that defeat the
| purpose of owning one's own wallets? Also... exchanges
| defeating the purpose of decentralization..._
|
| Many financial institutions do not care about
| decentralization, but they do care about investing in an
| asset where they do not have to worry about managing the
| asset (in that regard, similar to REITs). Having the asset
| insured against various types of malfeasance is also a
| requirement for investments by many institutional funds.
| lawn wrote:
| Your question is absolutely appropriate, as the _original_
| vision was not to have care about dollar values and instead
| use BTC as money.
|
| But now the speculators have taken over, and all that really
| matters is what BTC is worth in dollars.
| sowbug wrote:
| Many foreign-currency ETFs exist. Euros, or yen, or dollars
| can function as currencies even though some people also view
| them as investments.
|
| Commodities are similar. People might invest in pork bellies
| even if they don't personally eat bacon.
| crypt1d wrote:
| Happy to see this whole thing finally coming to an end, its a
| nice wrap to the dead market we've had for the past 2 years. I'm
| excited for 2024 in crypto!
| scrlk wrote:
| I'm curious to see how BTC will fare. We've only seen the 4
| year halving cycle play out during a secular bull market so
| far.
| landemva wrote:
| There were reward halvings in 2012, 2016, and 2020. I thought
| the 2012 halving was the most uncertain, as it was the first
| and the market had little liquidity.
|
| https://www.fidelity.com/learning-center/trading-
| investing/b...
| esafak wrote:
| FTT to the moon! Oh wait.
| rideontime wrote:
| What makes you think this is the end of anything?
| crypt1d wrote:
| The rumour about Binance indictment by DoJ has been going
| around for 1-2 years now. Its one of the last remaining
| pieces of major news that could have potentially negatively
| affected the industry. After two years of prosecutions,
| regulatory uncertainty and general poor market conditions,
| its only now starting to feel like there's light at the end
| of the tunnel.
| ratg13 wrote:
| Pay no attention to those stablecoins over in the corner.
|
| The name implies they are stable, what more could anyone
| want?
| tucnak wrote:
| Your optimism is fascinating & inspiring. Perhaps one day
| it would mature enough for GNU Taler and the like.
| yscal wrote:
| do the recent Kraken charges change this sentiment at all?
| artursapek wrote:
| Coinbase has been charged with more or less the same
| thing since this summer. The SEC is grasping at straws at
| this point.
| crypt1d wrote:
| Not really. SEC investigations are civil, not criminal.
| They might end up paying a fine, but there is no risk of
| jail time or anything similar. Also, while I like Kraken
| as an exchange, its market share is not significant
| enough for it to matter in the big picture.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > SEC investigations are civil, not criminal.
|
| SEC _investigations_ address both aspects, when it gets
| past investigation to litigation, they do civil
| litigation themselves and refer to DOJ for potential
| criminal prosecution.
| Enogoloyo wrote:
| Light to final blow against crypto the horrible CO2
| production and the annoying get rich apps.
|
| Let's hope it dies sooner than later.
| artursapek wrote:
| Yes, it's so nice how the traditional finance system has
| no CO2 emissions
| Enogoloyo wrote:
| The classical financial system has much less CO2 per
| transaction and more features.
|
| It's the perfect finetuned and still optimized PoS
| system.
| asterix_pano wrote:
| There are now lots of efficient cryptos and some that can
| run on a single wind turbine. But I am with you, hoping
| the energyvore ones die as fast as possible.
| toenail wrote:
| > Its one of the last remaining pieces of major news that
| could have potentially negatively affected the industry
|
| Lol. Tether imploding anyone?
| jgilias wrote:
| That's pretty unlikely to happen at the moment though.
| I'm far from a Tether fanboy, but in this interest rate
| environment they are likely making boatloads of money
| just by sitting on a nice chunk of T-bills.
| vkou wrote:
| > Its one of the last remaining pieces of major news that
| could have potentially negatively affected the industry.
|
| What, is the giant ticking timebomb of the USDT money
| printer not likely to 'negatively affect the industry'?
| fallat wrote:
| The current crypto market activity has nothing to do with
| crypto news. The macro-economic state of the world is one where
| everything is going up.
| nprateem wrote:
| More specifically now you can get actual real money by
| putting your savings in a bank account (and most people are
| struggling to pay the increased cost of living), there's less
| incentive to throw it away in a casino.
| psychlops wrote:
| I suggest spending some time understanding why the cost of
| living went up. Clearly you live in a place with a
| relatively stable currency (for now).
| nprateem wrote:
| What's that got to do with it driving people away from
| speculative assets?
| shrimpx wrote:
| 5% annualized on 4% inflation is a joke. I don't consider
| "high yield" savings to be any kind of strategy.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Smart move to avoid jail.
| pasttense01 wrote:
| Anyone have a non-paywalled repost of this article?
| buggeryorkshire wrote:
| This was the one posted on r/buttcoin
| https://www.wsj.com/finance/currencies/binance-ceo-changpeng...
| hardwarephreak wrote:
| https://archive.is/G8utD
| carimura wrote:
| anybody else have issues with archive.is lately? Tried two
| computers multiple browsers and all I get is a never-ending
| security check, sometimes with a captcha to really laugh at me.
| greyw wrote:
| Its cloudflare dns
| javawizard wrote:
| As in 1.1.1.1? I don't use 1.1.1.1 for my DNS provider and
| yet I still get the never ending validation loop.
|
| I am on Google Fiber though, so I probably use 8.8.8.8
| without explicitly meaning to. Perhaps this is a problem
| shared by both Cloudflare and Google's DNS proxies?
| vlovich123 wrote:
| If you're on iOS / Mac and have Apple private relay that
| would also use 1.1.1.1
| javawizard wrote:
| Oh interesting, good to know. I don't use Apple private
| relay so that wouldn't be the problem for me.
| abm53 wrote:
| I use a Google mesh network and get the same issue, which
| I assume is related to it using 8.8.8.8 by default.
| rsweeney21 wrote:
| Yes! Only happens on archive.is for me.
| stillwithit wrote:
| Has happened with various archive.* for me
| lazyeye wrote:
| Just put the fixed IP addresses for the various archive.??
| domains in your hosts file. This completely resolved the
| problem for me.
| greenyoda wrote:
| Even easier: Switch your browser's DNS-over-HTTPS
| configuration to another DNS provider. NextDNS works OK for
| me.
| lazyeye wrote:
| Great suggestion. Have just done this now too.
|
| For Windows users, YogaDNS is a great little app for
| managing DNS configuration. Can set up DNS rules
| depending on domain name etc.
|
| I actually use PiHole and added Local DNS entries for the
| archive.* domains in my PiHole config to fix the issue
| across my local network.
| noloblo wrote:
| can you paste the relevant /etc/hosts lines
| codetrotter wrote:
| IP addresses might vary depending on geo location or
| time. Here is what I get from DNS currently, that you can
| put in your /etc/hosts
|
| 51.38.69.52 archive.is archive.today
|
| 41.77.143.21 archive.ph archive.li archive.vn archive.fo
| archive.md
|
| And if all else fails, install Tor and access their site
| at archiveiya74codqgiixo33q62qlrqtkgmcitqx5u2oeqnmn5bpcbi
| yd.onion
| rossdavidh wrote:
| Same
| el_benhameen wrote:
| I think it's more general than this, but I have a hunch that
| iCloud private relay sets off the security gremlins.
| ct0 wrote:
| no problem for me on nextdns
| viewtransform wrote:
| To fix this in Firefox
|
| Settings | Privacy & Security | DNS over HTTPS | Increased
| Protection | Choose Provider | NextDNS
| lordfrito wrote:
| What about cofounder Yi He? If she's still in place then CZ
| stepping down doesn't mean much. I mean they have two kids
| together, don't tell me he won't be involved from the sidelines.
| standapart wrote:
| Exactly -- and CZ was always the fall guy. Yi is the
| mastermind.
| i4u wrote:
| Can you elaborate more? I do not know anything about Yi and
| how she is a cofounder.
| lordfrito wrote:
| Binance intentionally downplayed her role in the company
| (and her relationship with CZ) for a long time. Now she's
| seen as the most likely successor to CZ.
|
| Here's a recent article
|
| https://cryptoslate.com/reclusive-binance-co-founder-yi-
| he-s...
| Emoticon4032 wrote:
| Here's an article: https://coincu.com/110838-he-yi-co-
| founder-binance/
| costco wrote:
| Incoming: third party compliance monitor (as always, run by ex
| DOJ people) and a more risk averse CEO. I hope this doesn't mean
| they eventually stop operating in the unregulated markets like
| China, Vietnam, Turkey, etc. Bet365 and DraftKings do it but for
| gambling so it's certainly possible to run a major respected
| company while ignoring the laws of countries that don't have the
| leverage America does.
| Enogoloyo wrote:
| China is not unregulated.
|
| And all countries strong enough with their own fiat do care
| quite a lot to not having crypto in their country
| costco wrote:
| Sorry, I meant places where Binance is not licensed. This is
| most of the countries they operate in.
| fredgrott wrote:
| I have a question why is what CZ did different from what SBF did?
| I mean other than SBF getting caught over-extended in downgrading
| market they both did the same type of fraud.
| rossdavidh wrote:
| What countries they hung out in, I think. The Bahamas is not
| able to hold of US pressure for very long.
| h4l wrote:
| SBF lost customer funds by spending them as if they were his
| own. CZ isn't accused of spending customer funds, he's accused
| of letting people trade too freely.
| grey-area wrote:
| Binance is also accused of commingling funds.
| jawiggins wrote:
| AFAIK, commingling means that customer funds went into the
| same account as business funds. SBF is accused of then
| using those customer funds for business expenses, while
| Binance _seems_ to have stopped at just not separating them
| properly.
| morelisp wrote:
| It's the same violation of law but it doesn't quite look like
| the same kind of fraud. What's illegal is co-mingling funds;
| but you can co-mingle funds and do at least baseline proper
| accounting to make sure you're not too in the hole, vs. co-
| mingle funds and just straight up lie about how you're doing.
| Y'know, you're just a regular libertarian guy looking to get
| rich by breaking the law and not some coked-up wunderkind
| thinking he gets to save or destroy the world.
| thesausageking wrote:
| FTX took funds from customers and used them to run a hedge
| fund. When the fund did poorly, the customers' funds were gone,
| leaving a $8B hole. And they lied to customers about it.
|
| Binance is very different. While it hasn't complied with
| various securities laws, it's never lied to customers and has
| kept customers' assets safe. They've also done steps to build
| confidence and be transparent like verifying proof of reserves:
|
| https://www.binance.com/en/proof-of-reserves
|
| While this report isn't perfect, it does show that wallets they
| control have as much in assets as they're supposed to, so we
| know they're not doing what FTX did.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Crypto, AVs, and AI. Is nothing sacred this week?
| lenerdenator wrote:
| When money stops being cheap, people stop being lenient.
|
| Never should have been that cheap to begin with, really.
| gorbachev wrote:
| Takes a thief to know one? re: CZ's campaign to expose FTX and
| SBF.
| olalonde wrote:
| CZ was not accused of theft, he was accused of violating U.S.
| anti-money-laundering requirements.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| woah! a guilty plea on the executive!?
|
| this will probably wind up like Arthur Hayes, where its just
| probation
| jihadjihad wrote:
| CZ saw the immolation of SBF and probably decided it'd be a bad
| move to do anything other than whatever his lawyers told him to.
| rchaud wrote:
| CZ is much smarter, he didn't have any number 2s that could
| testify against him, and had already moved to a non-extradition
| country years ago. SBF thought he was cleverer than everybody
| and testified himself straight into a 8x10 cell for the
| foreseeable future.
| Nevermark wrote:
| Every move SBF made after his fall seemed extremely poorly
| thought out.
|
| Not a hater, just processing the dichotomy of his genius
| image with his ingeniously ungenius self-immolation.
|
| Lesson: Looking like you make lots of money makes you look
| very smart.
| rchaud wrote:
| PR rules the day, especially when you're VC-funded and have
| to maintain the charade of subject matter expertise.
| Although you'd think his Stanford Law professor father
| would have at least attempted to duct tape his son's mouth
| shut when it became clear he planned to testify.
| ZoomerCretin wrote:
| I'm surprised no one has brought up the famous quote from this
| Binance saga:
|
| 'We are operating as a fking unlicensed securities exchange in
| the USA bro.'
|
| https://www.businessinsider.com/sec-complaint-against-binanc...
| thr0waw4yz wrote:
| I wouldn't put a foot on US territory if I was him. Really wonder
| why didn't just wait it out in UAE.
| nashashmi wrote:
| > plead guilty to violating criminal U.S. anti-money-laundering
| requirements
|
| This has nothing to do with crypto. What forces him to comply
| with supposedly US dictatorship? Apparently this was a move
| against Iran and maybe Russia.
| wnc3141 wrote:
| would crypto investors or optimists consider the recent legal
| woes in the space to be a much needed clearing out of bad actors
| or a sign of falling confidence in crypto?
| shawn-butler wrote:
| Most crypto companies and investors are now AI investors /
| pivots. Don't think many are left to answer your question.
| tim333 wrote:
| I'd say mostly a needed clearing. Confidence is probably
| recovering a little from the FTX collapse low.
| underseacables wrote:
| I'm absolutely astonished by this. He lives in the Middle East,
| which does not have any extradition treaties with America.
| Granted, he might transit a country that has a treaty, but I'm
| really shocked that he would give him. What did they have over
| him? Maybe it was China...
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > He lives in the Middle East, which does not have any
| extradition treaties with America.
|
| Some Middle Eastern countries have extradition treaties with
| the US, but, more relevantly, a number of countries have legal
| extradition processes not dependent on treaties, including the
| UAE, the country where he lives.
| pants2 wrote:
| Binance is also paying many billions in fines to the US and
| exiting the US completely. I also don't understand why - if
| they're presumably headquartered outside of US jurisdiction,
| what are they gaining by paying exorbitant fines?
|
| They're also further inviting every country they've ever had a
| customer in to levy huge fines against Binance.
| mandevil wrote:
| I suspect that the threat of something similar to Global
| Magnitsky Sanctions (cutting them off from all dollar-
| denominated accounts everywhere) is a pretty big stick to use
| in negotiations. For a financial firm like Binance, access to
| bank accounts that can send dollars to and from US firms is
| pretty important, even without any US customers at all
| (losing access to banking in France, Cyprus, etc. would be
| equally difficult for them).
|
| The US has recently (gradually over the past 20 years or so)
| started to really weaponize access to dollar-denominated
| accounts, essentially conscripting all the banks that want to
| do business with American banks into service of American
| foreign policy goals. This started in the aftermath of
| September 11th, for terrorism, then spread with the Magnitsky
| act of 2012 to include international corruption, and has
| slowly spread to more and more areas. So far the US has been
| somewhat judicious about using the tool- they seem to be
| aware that if they use it too often people will eventually
| just build ways around it- but it is a pretty big threat to
| wield against a company that absolutely needs to do business
| with somebody's banks.
| ReptileMan wrote:
| Btw - I never found a good explanation why all USD
| transfers need to be routed trough usd banks. Google is
| quite silent on the subject - is it common knowledge or too
| obvious?
| tim333 wrote:
| Binance does a lot of business in the US. Probably in exchange
| for paying fines etc they will be able to keep in operation. I
| assume CZ himself won't suffer much. The Bitmex guy pleaded
| guilty of not enforcing AML properly and ended up with 6 months
| house arrest at home.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| > He lives in the Middle East, which does not have any
| extradition treaties with America.
|
| He lives in Dubai, within one of the US's closest allies in the
| region. I'd be worried.
| ptero wrote:
| There are _so_ many people who do not want to show up in the
| US (or elsewhere) and are living in Dubai that I would not be
| too worried. There is a full spectrum from former businessmen
| to current warlords.
|
| Dubai has a lot to lose by damaging its reputation as a safe
| haven for wealthy exiles. My 2c.
| civilitty wrote:
| Just because a government doesn't have an extradition treaty
| doesn't mean they won't extradite. Most countries with non-
| extradition policies only apply them to native-born nationals
| and sometimes citizens in general. For some random foreigner,
| it depends entirely on the geopolitical situation.
| zztop44 wrote:
| Imagine you're a guy with many billions of dollars. Would you
| pay a few of them in order to not be an international fugitive
| for the rest of your life?
| underseacables wrote:
| As another person pointed out, he may have seen the
| catastrophe that SBF created, and decided cooperation was the
| best way to avoid that. Perhaps I was shocked due to Zhao's
| general hubris.
| jawiggins wrote:
| It seems like they got a deal where they can pay a fine and
| continue doing business in the US.
|
| If you were him, why would you lose ~20% of your customers when
| you could just pay a fine and keep going? Sure he steps down,
| but he still owns the company.
| blobbers wrote:
| SBF decided to testify against CZ to try to save his own ass,
| giving justice dept and sec something to fine CZ with.
|
| Govt collects a big crypto fine, fine makes the big losers in FTX
| whole, problem solved.
|
| CZ should have just bought FTX and closed the deal and made
| people whole, woulda saved himself some drama.
| firekvz wrote:
| he has infinite supply of money to pay any fine, i dont really
| understand the fine amount, whats the porpouse of it, u either
| force them to destroy the whole exchange or just try to make
| their complete reputation go down but this looks like the govt
| getting some pocket money and letting them keep doing nasty
| things overseas and thats it?
| fyokdrigd wrote:
| that's what fines are for.
|
| most people criticize fines as a mere check for the offender
| belonging to some moneyed elite and nothing else.
|
| fines are not replacement for civil law. if anyone think they
| were wronged, that's the only way. not a magically proactive
| government becoming their patents.
| crispyambulance wrote:
| Isn't it better to just go after the scammers and fraudsters as
| soon as possible?
|
| Otherwise somebody else will be left "holding the bag"
| eventually (and it will be a larger bag).
|
| I might be old-fashioned but these fines and charges, to be
| clear, are for ACTUAL wrong-doing, you know, MONEY LAUNDERING.
| That's greedy-bad-guy stuff. It's not arbitrary or simply a
| matter of "avoiding drama".
| xur17 wrote:
| > SBF decided to testify against CZ to try to save his own ass,
| giving justice dept and sec something to fine CZ with.
|
| Is this conjecture?
| jawiggins wrote:
| Why would these fines go to debtors of a private institution? I
| believe DOJ fines typically get deposited into the US Treasury.
| __loam wrote:
| It would have failed eventually. FTX was fundamentally
| unstable.
| SeanAnderson wrote:
| Everything fails eventually.
| redox99 wrote:
| Rumor is that FTX is not that awful financially right now,
| because of their Anthropic investment.
| to11mtm wrote:
| ... I mean right now maybe, OTOH that space is as volatile
| as Crypto was 13ish months ago.
| drited wrote:
| Check the Reuters investigative pieces on CZ and Binance from
| 2022. They had plenty to fine him with before SBF's testimony.
|
| I actually can't believe he didn't get jail time given the
| severity of what was uncovered.
| OsrsNeedsf2P wrote:
| > Lim also acknowledged in February 2020 that some of
| Binance's customers, including those from Russia, were
| involved in illegal activities, according to the complaint.
| Lim wrote in a chat message about those trades: "Like come
| on. They are here for crime." Money Laundering Reporting
| Officer at Binance responded at the time, "we see the bad,
| but we close 2 eyes."
|
| https://archive.is/Q8uu3
| sosuke wrote:
| Fines always feel meaningless. Who gets the money?
| ourmandave wrote:
| Zhao isn't getting any jail time. Wonder who he rolled over on
| for that deal.
| PUSH_AX wrote:
| Like this space couldn't get more ridiculous.
| partiallypro wrote:
| I just saw the headlines that Binance knowingly let ISIS, Hamas,
| Al Qaeda and Iran use their platform to launder money. Hot take:
| that doesn't seem great.
| drited wrote:
| Yes I cannot believe CZ avoided jail time.
| mrbonner wrote:
| In a sense, this is prisoner dilemma at play here :-) Other guy
| confessed and agreed to testify against CZ. The optimal path for
| CZ is to confess.
| bitcharmer wrote:
| Someone correct me if this is false but it looks like so far an
| overwhelming majority of crypto firms have been utter scams. I
| frequently get job offers in this space, always decline stating I
| don't want to be associated with organised crime.
| popcalc wrote:
| He doesn't have that kind of money. That's VIP client money and
| he is going to have a target on his back.
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