[HN Gopher] Venmo, Cash App users sue Apple over peer-to-peer pa...
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Venmo, Cash App users sue Apple over peer-to-peer payment fees
Author : mfiguiere
Score : 85 points
Date : 2023-11-20 19:27 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.reuters.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com)
| e63f67dd-065b wrote:
| > Apple's agreements limit "feature competition" within peer-to-
| peer payment apps, including prohibiting existing or new
| platforms from using "decentralized cryptocurrency technology,"
| the complaint said.
|
| > The lawsuit seeks an injunction that could force Apple to
| divest or segregate its Apple Cash business
|
| > The plaintiffs in the new lawsuit alleged Apple, Venmo and Cash
| App "have repeatedly raised prices for transactions and services
| with no competitive check."
|
| > They argued that a peer-to-peer app based on "decentralized"
| crypto technology "would allow iPhone users to send payments to
| each other without any intermediary at all."
|
| > The lawsuit said Apple has excluded from its App Store at least
| two Bitcoin wallet apps, Zeus and Damus, which is backed by Block
| founder Jack Dorsey.
|
| If I understand the claim correctly, the plaintiffs are arguing
| that Apple is colluding with Paypal and Cashapp to restrict
| cryptocurrency wallet apps from the App Store, which drives up
| the cost of p2p payments?
|
| Good luck I guess.
| codetrotter wrote:
| I don't understand what argument that is.
|
| On my iPhone I have:
|
| - Kraken Pro app, where I can buy and sell bitcoins
|
| - Ledger Live app, which I use with my hardware Ledger device
| for my self custody Bitcoin
|
| Using these two apps, I can buy Bitcoin, sell Bitcoin, and
| transfer Bitcoin to anyone using my iPhone.
|
| What is it that Apple is preventing these people from doing?
|
| If I want to send Bitcoins to you, we don't need that Apple
| allows Venmo or other "peer to peer" payment apps to use
| cryptocurrency. Those kind of companies are irrelevant for that
| goal anyways.
|
| All we need is that you either have an account on an exchange,
| or a self-custody wallet, and I can send Bitcoin to you. All of
| this is possible using an iPhone.
| everfree wrote:
| From the article:
|
| > They argued that a peer-to-peer app based on
| "decentralized" crypto technology "would allow iPhone users
| to send payments to each other without any intermediary at
| all."
|
| Kraken lets you access crypto that is held in custody by an
| exchange company. Ledger Live lets you access crypto that
| resides on a separate physical device.
|
| To the best of my reading, plaintiffs argue that Apple is
| preventing people from holding cryptocurrency _on their
| iPhone_. As in, the private keys are stored in the app 's
| secure storage space, so the crypto is actually "in" the
| phone and not with a company or on a separate device. So to
| answer your question, that's what it seems plaintiffs are
| alleging that Apple prevents people from doing.
| kstrauser wrote:
| Trust Wallet does exactly thaf. TBH I have no idea what the
| plaintiffs are actually contending.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| you shouldn't trust Trust Wallet
|
| there have even been private key exposing bugs in it
| after the Binance acquisition too
|
| but yes, the conversation is about whether crypto wallets
| have been approved before in the app store, and that's
| true, its a seemingly tenuous relationship though
| kstrauser wrote:
| I don't. I have a Ledger hardware wallet now for the
| smidgen of Dogecoin that I hold onto for the fun of it.
|
| But I _did_ have Trust Wallet for a little while,
| downloaded straight from the official App Store.
| everfree wrote:
| After reading the lawsuit more closely, it seems like
| they're arguing that Apple rejects applications that
| include cryptocurrency features but weren't submitted by
| regulated financial institutions.
|
| One of their examples was a social network app that was
| rejected for including a crypto tipping feature.
| threeseed wrote:
| > but weren't submitted by regulated financial
| institutions
|
| This was detailed on an Apple support page for an app
| submission: Guideline 3.1.5 - Business -
| Payments - Cryptocurrencies Your app
| facilitates the transmission of a virtual currency but
| was not submitted by a corresponding exchange or
| recognized financial institution. Next Steps
| To resolve this issue, please provide documentary
| evidence demonstrating you have the necessary licenses
| and permissions to distribute an app with cryptocurrency
| exchange features in all the locations where your app is
| currently available.
| hanzmanner wrote:
| Hard to disagree with Apple here. Crypto "absolutists"
| fail to acknowledge how prevalent crypto scams are, so a
| blanket enablement of any and all apps to have crypto
| payment features would be highly dangerous.
| etchalon wrote:
| I do not understand this lawsuit.
|
| > The plaintiffs in the new lawsuit alleged Apple, Venmo and Cash
| App "have repeatedly raised prices for transactions and services
| with no competitive check."
|
| They are arguing there is no competitive check between three
| companies who are competing with each other.
|
| My assumption here is they are trying to claim that the fact
| Apple hasn't enabled/allowed specific Crypto wallets on the App
| Store - despite their being numerous Crypto wallets on the App
| Store - necessarily restricts competition because if people used
| crypto to send money to each other, they wouldn't have to pay
| transaction fees - which are already $0 for the vast majority of
| p2p use cases in Venmo, Cash, etc.
|
| This lawsuit will go nowhere.
| hanzmanner wrote:
| Is it even possible to send crypto with 0 transaction fees? If
| yes, my knowledge is really outdated in this area.
| etchalon wrote:
| It is not.
|
| It's actually cheaper to send money using Venmo/Cash/Paypal.
| ForkMeOnTinder wrote:
| The median lightning fee is currently $0.000229988.
| https://1ml.com/statistics
|
| It's true that Venmo/etc is cheaper at $0, but remember
| you're paying with your data instead. Having the choice of
| which way to pay is welcome imo
| yieldcrv wrote:
| that makes sense, both Paypal and Cash App offer buying, selling,
| depositing and withdrawal of crypto with great ease
|
| be careful what they wish for though, Apple may solve this by
| accelerating the more obvious reality of integrating crypto
| payments and balances in Apple Wallet directly
|
| but that's how crypto works, it always gets more resilient upon
| challenge. everything slightly harder about crypto that builders
| were willing to ignore, suddenly become no brainers when faced
| with a challenge.
| joshstrange wrote:
| > The plaintiffs in the new lawsuit alleged Apple, Venmo and Cash
| App "have repeatedly raised prices for transactions and services
| with no competitive check."
|
| Apple, Venmo, and Cash App allow sending cash for free or am I
| missing something? I've never paid a fee on any of them nor have
| I seen an increase in prices for things like the paying a
| business on Venmo (not sure if the other 2 have anything like
| that?).
|
| And all of this in the name of crypto? Yeah, I couldn't care
| less.
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