[HN Gopher] In illinois, a warden tried to fix an abusive prison
___________________________________________________________________
In illinois, a warden tried to fix an abusive prison
Author : Anon84
Score : 90 points
Date : 2023-11-15 17:43 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.themarshallproject.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.themarshallproject.org)
| MiguelHudnandez wrote:
| It seems like bodycams for guards is an appropriate direction to
| go. People in positions of power should not be able to abuse
| those in their charge with no repercussions.
| meepmorp wrote:
| I'd also like to see police and prison officer's unions
| eliminated. They frequently work to keep people in jobs when
| they really need to be removed from their position, and given
| the huge amount of power officers have over vulnerable people,
| that's very much not in our collective best interest.
|
| We need to police the police much more strictly.
| pixl97 wrote:
| >I'd also like to see police and prison officer's unions
| eliminated.
|
| There is a particular balance that is needed here... This
| just shifts the abuse to the typical abuse non-unionized
| workers receive. Low pay, bad working conditions, dangerous
| working conditions which leads to more staff rotation and
| increasing danger in the work environment.
| zem wrote:
| and it will in turn lead to situations where bribes are a
| cop's main source of income
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| Cops and prison guards aren't workers in the sense that
| labor unions are based on. They are part of the
| infrastructure that determines who works, where & how,
| under what conditions, and to whose benefit. I don't mean
| to dehumanize them but in the mechanism of labor relations
| their role is more related to coordination and coercion
| than it is to production.
|
| Like if everyone's bosses organized, what they would have
| isn't a labor union but something else. Police unions use
| the nomenclature of labor unions but they are actually a
| different thing.
| pixl97 wrote:
| " prison guards aren't workers in the sense that labor
| unions are based on"
|
| So, this shows that you have zero idea what the inside of
| prisons are like for it's employees.
|
| A captain level at a jail would tell a corrections
| officer to go into a pit of angry inmates in a heartbeat,
| and in general the unions for these officers are what
| help push the rules to keep said officers from getting
| killed, or working double shifts.
|
| A good thing and a bad thing can happen with a system
| operating normally.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| You're getting twisted up thinking I'm making a value
| judgement about morality or whatever; it's not about
| goodness or badness.
|
| If a group of business owners coordinates for the benefit
| of their shared interests, what they have is a business
| association or chamber of commerce or cartel not a labor
| union. This is despite the fact that their work
| individually could be grueling or dangerous, or they have
| an even worse boss or whatever.
|
| Cops and prison guards, like business owners, are part of
| the system that coordinates who produces value, when and
| where. But they do not produce that value, and so their
| organizations aren't labor unions. It's not merely a
| semantic point either: they have working conditions sure
| but their goals and tools are different because of this
| relationship. From a guard's perspective the ideal prison
| has no prisoners in it; the second best has them drugged
| and restrained at all times. How would a union reconcile
| either of these things?
|
| And you're right, I've only ever been in a prison as a
| prisoner. What's your experience being employed in one?
| pixl97 wrote:
| >What's your experience being employed in one
|
| A very close family member had a 27 year career as a
| corrections officer until they retired.
|
| But pretty much point you on here is stupid beyond
| belief. Do you think anyone at any job wants to do
| anything if the other option was getting paid for doing
| nothing?
|
| The workers at low levels in these organizations are
| treated like shit, just like every business that has low
| paid, low skill jobs. Why in the living hell would you
| think that a corrections officer is "part of the system".
| I'd say, "Hey go get one of those jobs and you'll see",
| but it sounds like you're eliminated from the category.
| storf45 wrote:
| Can you speak more to what balance is needed? Not being
| able to terminate bad actors severely impacts the ability
| to improve the situation. The union rep seemed to shift
| blame throughout out the entire article.
|
| From the article:
|
| Bergami and Whitmore said they also tried to fire an
| officer who they saw on video throwing away prisoners'
| mail, a possible felony. The agency also overruled them in
| that decision, they said. The bureau did not respond to
| allegations of staff destroying mail."How do you root out
| the bad apples if you're not allowed to terminate those who
| have been recommended for termination?" Whitmore said.The
| two former Thomson officials and a current prison employee
| said the attitude among many guards was reflected by a
| group who refused to wear their issued uniforms. These
| officers opted instead for black T-shirts, many with the
| union logo or the skull logo of The Punisher -- a vigilante
| comic book character popular with far-right groups. They
| called themselves "The Black Shirt Mafia."
|
| Also: Seems like they might be looking at lots of staff
| rotation anyway (union or not):
| https://www.ourquadcities.com/news/local-news/thomson-
| prison...
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| The general argument from the pro-unionists is that police
| are agents of the state and agents of the state aren't
| normal workers in need of typical union protections.
| vkou wrote:
| I'm a pro-unionist, anti-police, and I don't really buy
| that argument.
|
| All that you need is rule of law, rather than carving out
| special cases for police unions.
|
| Unfortunately, while all animals are equal under the law,
| but some animals are more equal[1] then others...
|
| [1] Still waiting for a cop in my town going 50 over the
| speed limit, with no lights or sirens running down a
| woman at a pedestrian crossing to be charged. We're
| almost coming up to a year anniversary on it!
| lesuorac wrote:
| I wouldn't recommend making a special case for _police_
| unions.
|
| Unions shouldn't be allow to have management and non-
| management in the same union. The guy evaluating your
| performance (police commissioner) should not be allowed
| to be in the same union regardless of if you are police
| or tech.
| pixl97 wrote:
| Why would the state not abuse its workers? In theory the
| 'union' portion of representation should be codified into
| the rules the departments are under, but they are not.
| Prisons will gladly have you work double shifts where
| they are allowed even though it's insanely dangerous.
| louwrentius wrote:
| If you can't fire people who misbehave:
|
| 1. You are not in charge
|
| 2. The problems are with upper management specifically condoning
| the behavior
| shadowgovt wrote:
| The biggest challenge with improving systems such as
| corrections is sometimes "upper management" is "the public" (in
| the form of voters who will sack anyone who tries to spend
| public money to improve circumstances because the voters simply
| believe "fuck criminals").
| Crunchified wrote:
| Good article, but I wonder why the photo of Thomson Correctional
| Center appears to show it to be an Illinois Department of
| Corrections prison rather than a federal prison?
| tomjakubowski wrote:
| The federal government bought the prison from Illinois in 2012.
| Must be an old photo
| alwaysrunning wrote:
| I am assuming it's an old picture? fm Wikipedia
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Penitentiary,_Th...
|
| "In October 2012, the Federal Bureau of Prisons (BOP) purchased
| Thomson Correctional Center from the State of Illinois for $165
| million."
| autoexec wrote:
| Our prison system is inhumane and our treatment of prisoners is
| torture. I don't doubt there will be a lot of resistance to
| cleaning the system up because basically everyone involved is
| guilty and won't like the idea of suddenly being vulnerable to
| being held accountable for what they've been doing.
|
| There's still a strong culture in the US that fetishizes
| punishment. A disturbingly high number of people want criminals
| to go to prison and get beaten and raped. They don't care how
| many innocent people get caught up in it as long it isn't them
| personally and so long as at least some people they feel "deserve
| it" are being tortured. I'd like to think that those attitudes
| will change and eventually we'll start improving things, but I
| don't see it happening any time soon.
| alwaysrunning wrote:
| Not to mention their cut in untaxed income should they stop
| smuggling contraband for gangs.
| manicennui wrote:
| They also don't think about what happens to these people when
| they are eventually released.
| drewcoo wrote:
| > There's still a strong culture in the US that fetishizes
| punishment.
|
| Go to the movies. Sex is such a taboo that if it's depicted in
| detail it is unfit for adult theaters. Maiming and killing is
| ok even for children.
|
| Our morals are upside down. And constantly being reinforced to
| stay that way.
| Dah00n wrote:
| The same movies are shown in Scandinavian cinemas, and the
| prisons there are most definitely not in any way similar. I
| believe it is part of the US mentality. Like the SUV, guns,
| "Freedom", etc. Hollywood portray the US, not the other way
| around.
| autoexec wrote:
| > The same movies are shown in Scandinavian cinemas
|
| Maybe it's better now but Scandinavia has had their moments
| of censorship keeping those "same movies" out of theaters.
| Sweden banned The Texas Chain Saw Massacre, Mad Max, and
| even ET (for ages under 11). Norway banned Ichi the Killer,
| I Spit on Your Grave, and A Serbian Film.
| froh wrote:
| it's not just punishment.
|
| per the constitution forced / slave labor is only abolished for
| non-prisoners. prisoners are no citizens. many loose the right
| to vote, too.
|
| and _that_ again is a major reason why marijuana was made a
| felony crime.
| autoexec wrote:
| The use of prison slaves is slowly changing. Some states have
| passed laws to ban the practice
| (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-63578133) although
| even there enforcement needs a lot of work
| (https://www.npr.org/2023/11/13/1210564359/slavery-prison-
| for...) but I'm encouraged by the direction things are
| headed. It's an uphill battle since corporations are fighting
| like hell to keep their slaves. Big companies like aramark,
| mcdonald's, walmart, target, victoria's secret, microsoft,
| whole foods, starbucks, and wendys have profited heavily from
| the prison plantation system. It's impressive that there's
| been as much success putting a stop to it as there has been.
| jstarfish wrote:
| Before private labor, we put them on chain gangs, and
| deemed that inhumane when cars veering off the road would
| gouranga the entire crew.
|
| We call it _slavery_ , but is it? Yeah, prisoners make $1
| an hour to work for private industry. That sucks for
| prisoners, sure, but they're being fed, housed, and
| receiving healthcare at taxpayer expense even without
| opting-in. The extra $6/hr they don't get paid subsidizes
| their stay...literally repaying their debts to society.
|
| What's the real objection to this? Competitive
| disadvantage?
| Larrikin wrote:
| >but they're being fed, housed, and receiving healthcare
| at taxpayer expense even without opting-in
|
| All slaves receive these things. Its in the interest of
| the slave owner to keep the slaves healthy enough to
| work. Modern companies shouldn't get a discount by using
| slave labor. If the prisoner wants to learn a "skill"
| that is profitable to a company then they should be paid
| the minimum wage.
|
| Its less awful, but I also believe unpaid internships
| should also be illegal unless they are purely
| observational. If the intern is contributing in anyway to
| the profits of the company, they should be paid.
| jstarfish wrote:
| > All slaves receive these things. Its in the interest of
| the slave owner to keep the slaves healthy enough to
| work.
|
| Sure, but unlike slavery, you get the food and housing
| independent of whether you lift a finger to do any work.
| The work is optional. It's rewarding if you do it.
| Working shortens your sentence. Work output never changes
| one's status as a slave.
|
| Articles suggest prisoners who don't opt-in to work
| programs are penalized at parole hearings. This is a
| dishonest reframing of parole, something intended to be
| an _earned benefit_ , not a clearance sale. The system is
| optimizing for prisoners who have been
| conditioned/rehabilitated into being functional in
| society-- the ones paroled demonstrated some willingness
| to play the same game as civilians, working to get ahead
| through their labor. They appear to have been broken of
| their criminal ways, so retaining them is expensive and
| unnecessary.
|
| The ones who insist on avoiding work serve the duration
| of their actual sentence as proscribed. This is not
| slavery, it's literally the point of prison. You stay
| until your term expires or you demonstrate to the parole
| board that you've changed.
|
| > I also believe unpaid internships should also be
| illegal unless they are purely observational. If the
| intern is contributing in anyway to the profits of the
| company, they should be paid.
|
| I'd argue unpaid internships are _worse._ The intern
| doesn 't need to prove any sort of reformation, nor are
| they being punished for crimes against society. They do
| not have food and housing provided for them. Not paying
| them is entirely exploitative.
| landemva wrote:
| > Work output never changes one's status as a slave.
|
| Though what I earn from work does change how much the
| feds take as their cut. If you don't own the earnings
| from your labor, you aren't a free person.
| metabagel wrote:
| > Nationally, prisoners are paid a pretax hourly average
| wage of 52 cents, and in some states nothing
|
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/25/slavery-
| unit...
|
| The objection is that it's forced labor, meaning you're
| subject to punishment if you don't comply. Basically,
| slavery.
| autoexec wrote:
| > We call it slavery, but is it?
|
| Yes. When you are forced to work and aren't allowed to
| quit your job, you are a slave. Slave owners may
| feed/house their slaves, and even pay them slave wages
| but none of those things make the slave any less of a
| slave.
|
| > What's the real objection to this?
|
| It's rare that someone asks what possible objection
| someone might have to slavery. Even if you thought that
| exploiting, abusing, and degrading enslaved human beings
| for profit wasn't morally abhorrent, there are purely
| economic reasons why slavery is a terrible idea. There
| are also purely selfish reasons to oppose it because if
| we allow it to happen to others it could just as easily
| be allowed to happen to you.
|
| It's not even terrible unlikely that it will. The US
| locks up more of their own population behind bars than
| any other nation on Earth. There are plenty of entirely
| innocent people in prisons too. The best way to protect
| yourself against slavery is to make sure that enslavement
| isn't even an option on the table.
|
| That said, there's no reason why that should mean that
| prisoners can't be employed by choice. If they were free
| to decide what type of work they wanted, and they were
| free to decline employment they wanted no part of, and
| they were provided the same pay for their labor as anyone
| else would be, and they were afforded the same
| protections against exploitation and hazardous working
| conditions as anyone else, then there'd be no harm in
| letting them make money and it'd be very helpful if they
| could put some money aside for the many expenses they'll
| be on the hook for after their release.
| ForkMeOnTinder wrote:
| Many corporations still use forced labor, even today, even in
| the US. If you want to fix the prison system, you'll be
| fighting against Walmart/McDonalds/others with deep pockets.
|
| https://www.aclu.org/wp-content/uploads/legal-
| documents/2022...
| cynicalsecurity wrote:
| Is working at McDonald's really so bad in the US?
| Deprecate9151 wrote:
| I can't tell if this is a joke, but in case it's in
| earnest the issue here is the prisoners are typically
| forced to work at well below market rates. Then usually
| much of it is withheld on top of that. It also does
| little to reintegrate them into society since the work
| experience isn't seen as valuable. The corporations and
| those with their hands in the prison system profit,
| society and the prisoners lose out.
| akira2501 wrote:
| > A disturbingly high number of people want criminals to go to
| prison and get beaten and raped.
|
| I've heard this trope a lot, but I wonder, is there any data to
| actually back it up?
|
| > They don't care how many innocent people get caught up in it
|
| Here I'm certain there is no data to back up this point,
| anecdotally, this seems the opposite of the truth. Perhaps you
| just mean the prosecutors and not the citizenry in general?
| Deprecate9151 wrote:
| I doubt you can get concrete data on point one, but it is a
| commonly repeated trope. At best many people are too okay
| treating prison abuse as a joke.
|
| For the second point, many US Prosecutors are elected. They
| run on a "tough on crime" platform, and tout their successful
| conviction % as a key metric of success. Very little credence
| is given to anything else. It's not a direct poll, but it's
| more than 'no data'.
| sokoloff wrote:
| It seems reasonable to cite a high conviction rate as
| evidence of competence and success in your role as the
| state's prosecutor of crimes against the people. It's not
| the _only_ metric to look at, but it's absolutely a
| _relevant_ metric.
| FireBeyond wrote:
| But then you also run into the issue of the plea deal.
|
| A disturbingly high number of cases are plead out - in
| some states that number approaches 90%. This is more than
| any other country on earth, and by a huge margin. Many
| countries completely forbid plea bargaining, and most of
| those who allow it have strict rules on implementation,
| oversight and review, where here it is almost entirely
| purely at a prosecutor's discretion.
|
| This falsely pushes conviction rates up, as there are
| huge swathes of cases where it has been demonstrated that
| people plead out as the path of least resistance, rather
| than factual guilt.
| Deprecate9151 wrote:
| Another commentator touched on how those stats can be
| misleading, so I want to stress that it is often touted
| as the only relevant metric. You never see it presented
| in context of total number of indictments, overturns on
| appeal, break downs by offense, etc. I'd even argue it's
| ONLY relevant in the context of other stats.
|
| For example, the other issue I didn't see the other
| commentor speak on is it can lead to UNDER enforcement.
| It can create an incentive to ignore "complicated" wrong
| doing, or quickly dropping charges against those who plea
| bargain to preserve a high conviction rate, even if it's
| against the public interest.
|
| So when you see "conviction rate" it's impossible to know
| if they're actually good at prosecuting. You can only
| tell they're good at identifying cases where a conviction
| is highly likely.
| sokoloff wrote:
| > they're good at identifying cases where a conviction is
| highly likely
|
| Which is _entirely relevant_ to their competence and job
| performance, of course.
| Deprecate9151 wrote:
| Relevant, but not sufficient. Often skewing to "directly
| misleading" in practice.
| metabagel wrote:
| It's like judging a programmer by lines of code.
| andrei_says_ wrote:
| Exactly. Prison culture is a mirror of our collective psyche.
|
| We as a society are gleefully accepting of cruel and
| unreasonable punishment, with a disturbing level of
| bloodthirstiness.
|
| Similarly, we are accepting of the merciless brutality of
| Healthcare-as-industry.
|
| The unspeakable violence of poverty.
|
| We have hardened our hearts in order to see, walk by, live
| along these, and more, sources of easily preventable suffering.
|
| This hardening is making us sick, too. We just somehow can't
| make the connection.
| robotnikman wrote:
| It seems to be changing slowly but surely, thankfully.
|
| There was a recent post on Reddit made by a prisoner [1] (who
| was in for life for murdering his sister) who has a locker full
| of manga, books, MtG cards, and a tablet with minecraft (which
| he rooted to allow for sideloading of apps). He says he feels
| very comfortable with the prison life there. I never expected
| this from a prison in the state of Georgia of all places.
|
| This is only one anecdote, but it struck me as surprising when
| I heard of it. The more we start to focus prisons on
| rehabilitation instead of just punishment, the better.
|
| [1]
| https://old.reddit.com/r/Prison/comments/q96ixg/this_is_what...
| jstarfish wrote:
| He's an interesting case.
|
| > [...] I was a young kid who thought I was smart and clever
| and thought I knew people. Prison dunked my head in a cold
| river of reality. Many people in these prisons have a strong
| criminal mindset. You learn by fucking up that there are
| always people who have had it worse, are more clever,
| stronger, but also more debased, cruel, and uncaring. From
| this though I have been forced to overcome my autism
| symptoms. I was thrown off by loud noises, physical contact,
| and was completely socially inept before I came to prison.
| Free world society softly caters to autistic kids but in
| prison you have no choice but to confront your mental health.
| In short, prison is an adverse environment which can bring
| out the good, or more often the bad, in people. As a young
| kid I learned quick that I couldn't rely on any staff or
| inmates as far as trust goes. I quickly saw I wasn't going to
| be babied and if I didn't fight for myself and who I was I
| would be lost. Not everyone becomes a paragon, very few do.
| [...]
|
| Not sure what to make of him. He's very forthcoming about
| what he did, but evasive about the _why_.
| jnsie wrote:
| Alas it appears that it is that way because the prison is
| extremely short staffed and they have to let a lot slide,
| rather than any progressive attitude toward prisoner reform.
| landemva wrote:
| Consider how airlines stopped charging money for movies/TV
| and now encourage everyone to consume it because it keeps
| them quiet.
| NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
| > There's still a strong culture in the US that fetishizes
| punishment. A
|
| No, you just don't understand the civilization you were born
| into.
|
| It's not a fetish... _it 's the point_. If government promises
| to punish transgressors, then individuals will refrain from
| vigilante justice. This punishment is done, because our monkey
| morality demands it.
|
| There are a few secondary goals. We also seek to sequester the
| offender away from society, so they can't do more injury. We
| hope (mostly in vain) that public acknowledgement of the
| punishment acts as a deterrent.
|
| > They don't care how many innocent people get caught up in it
|
| Can't speak for anyone else, but I care about that. It's mostly
| easy policy fixes too. If prosecutors were barred from using
| plea bargaining (we don't have to ban it absolutely, limit it
| to 1% of the cases they see per calendar year), some large
| chunk of the wrongly-convicted would avoid that fate.
| Absolutely demolish bail bonding as an industry. Hell, if you
| really want to fix stuff...
|
| Prohibit eyewitness testimony in court, including but
| especially confessions (they can be useful as investigative
| leads, but aren't evidence of anything except some really
| perverse human psychology).
|
| Who am I supposed to talk to to get the policy fixes
| implemented?
|
| Maybe it's not the attitude problem you think it is.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| > because our _human_ morality demands it.
|
| This impulse pre-dates hominids by quite a bit. It's shared
| with some non-mammalian birds.
| sokoloff wrote:
| > Prohibit eyewitness testimony in court
|
| The Constitution* enshrines the right to face your accuser in
| open court. That to me seems proper; why do you propose to
| eliminate it (what gain do you expect)?
|
| If you want to eliminate that right, there is a process for
| amending the Constitution laid out in the document itself.
|
| * Technically, the Sixth Amendment.
| NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
| > The Constitution* enshrines the right to face your
| accuser in open court.
|
| Sure. They'll get to see the face. Of course, for the vast
| majority of crimes, the accuser is the state.
|
| > That to me seems proper; why do you propose to eliminate
| it
|
| Because we don't allow dream interpretation, tarot card
| readings, or other nonsense to be admitted as evidence
| either.
|
| You know how every few months you hear of some black man
| that has been in prison for rape for 30 years, until DNA
| evidence exonerates? Behind every one of those convictions
| there was some sobbing woman on the stands pointing a
| finger at him.
|
| Eyewitness testimony is junk of the lowest grade, below
| even those tarot cards I joked about.
|
| But yeh, they'll get to sit in the same courtroom with any
| accusers, we just won't let the accusers get up and make up
| bullshit that they believe are infallible memories. This
| isn't a constitutional issue. Legislation is absolutely
| permitted to set standards of evidence.
| kmoser wrote:
| The problem isn't so much the admitting of eyewitness
| testimony, it's the weight given to it and, in your
| example, the addition of racism that leads to false
| convictions. As long as there is racism, there will be
| false convictions.
| unethical_ban wrote:
| >"the vast majority of our employees are hardworking, ethical,
| diligent corrections professionals, who act with integrity daily
| and want those engaging in misconduct to be held accountable."
|
| In the career of prison guard, the ideal would be 100% integrity.
|
| I believe unions have their issues, but that in a "market"
| career, such as the trades or retail or service workers, the good
| outweighs the bad.
|
| Unions for police and prison guards are 100% a mafia and they
| should not be tolerated. It needs to be much easier to fire cops.
| Crunchified wrote:
| How about banning unions for _any_ government employees? These
| employees should be held accountable only to the public and its
| elected representatives.
| gowld wrote:
| There are many aspects of a union. Employees deserve a
| unified voice. What they don't deserve is to hold the system
| hostage with threats after they agree to work.
| unethical_ban wrote:
| While other public sectors can definitely have an impact on
| public safety, I don't believe there is the threat of
| violence or endangerment to the public that is so prevalent
| in policing.
|
| Therefore I'm /less/ concerned about teachers, fire, post
| office, air traffic, etc. even though they have their issues.
| pessimizer wrote:
| Unions are a right, not a privilege, and if the police and
| prison guards are racist, a good union representing them would
| also be racist.
|
| We need to stop catering to them, however, and we need to make
| it those jobs fit for someone other than racists of fascists to
| do. But you can't create and uphold a racist system, and put
| all the responsibility on the hands needed to carry out the
| goals of that system. These horrible police abuses and prison
| abuses are usually being carried out under the oversight of
| hundreds of Democratic (often black) mayors and governors who
| love a docile and quiet minority population, but not the blame
| for the violent pacification that it takes to create and
| preserve one.
|
| > It needs to be much easier to fire cops.
|
| Unions don't make the rules, politicians doing what their
| donors say do. Giving the police unions what they want is a
| choice. Other unions don't get what they want.
| akira2501 wrote:
| I dislike unions in general. I think they're a terrible
| compromise in response to a monopolized labor market. You
| should deal with the monopoly, not create your own monopoly of
| labor.
|
| Anyways, in cases where the employer has an unnatural monopoly
| and you can't otherwise address it, unions make perfect sense.
| The employees otherwise have no secure mechanism to
| legitimately and successfully negotiate their contracts.
|
| Your only other way out is to privatize the police force to a
| large extent and allow competition between different agencies
| for different city contracts. Then you would have true market
| forces benefiting the city and the labor.
| ilovetux wrote:
| I can understand why a person might commit an act of abuse.
| Anger, fetish, frustration it all makes a sort of sense, but what
| I cannot comprehend is why leadership was actively preventing
| investigations and sanctions.
|
| It makes no sense unless it is a criminal organization profiting
| off of the abuse.
|
| These people need consequences.
| cool_dude85 wrote:
| Why would I try to investigate or sanction anyone? Get up off
| my ass, spend my limited money, just to make myself look like a
| bad boss?
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| Leadership are abusers too and none of them want any more
| scrutiny at their facility. The entire motivation for the
| prison system is sadistic and the people involved don't care
| about the human beings locked inside.
| NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
| It is an organization, by definition. It's a unit of
| government.
|
| This organization has revenue (budgeted to it).
|
| If they perform poorly, the budget might be lowered next year.
| More correctly, if they are perceived to perform poorly, their
| budget drops. But they were in control of the mechanisms by
| which their performance is perceived.
|
| > These people need consequences.
|
| If you put people (individually or as a group) into an
| unpleasant circumstance, and demand performance from them at
| odds with the unpleasantness of the circumstance, you run into
| a problem. You're no longer able to insist they experience
| consequences for failure. When you attempt that, if they're
| allowed to quit, they just quit. And I know you weren't
| suggesting we press them into slavery.
|
| Consequences only work when they have no leverage.
| ilovetux wrote:
| I am not talking about consequences for failure. I am talking
| about consequences for crimes.
|
| Let them quit. They were trying to fire them anyway. They
| shouldn't even have their jobs at this point anyway...they
| should be in prison.
| kwere wrote:
| its Illinois, a state with a crazy history of mob-like
| instituzionalized corruption.
| flenserboy wrote:
| Guards, police, umpires -- all near-impossible to make get in
| line, much less get rid of. There's a common denominator here.
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