[HN Gopher] Ultra-white ceramic cools buildings with high reflec...
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       Ultra-white ceramic cools buildings with high reflectivity
        
       Author : thunderbong
       Score  : 150 points
       Date   : 2023-11-14 14:51 UTC (8 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (newatlas.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (newatlas.com)
        
       | hospitalJail wrote:
       | I've wanted blankets like this for my roof in the summer and the
       | black alternative for winter. (I suppose my roof is black, but
       | the equivalent for the exterior walls for my home)
       | 
       | I'm almost surprised this isnt already a thing.
        
         | craftkiller wrote:
         | Sounds like you want trees. In the summer they have leaves
         | which provides shade to your roof. In the winter they lose
         | their leaves and let the sun through. Best of all: its
         | automated.
        
           | ceejayoz wrote:
           | The gutter cleaning and leaf raking/mulching that results
           | most certainly is _not_ automated, lol.
        
             | HelloMcFly wrote:
             | You can install nearly-perfect gutter guards.
             | 
             | I've also personally just stopped raking leaves entirely.
             | Where I want some grass in my front yard I'll mulch with my
             | mower which is good for the grass, but otherwise I just
             | leave the leaves alone and it results in a soft, typically
             | non-muddy ground like a forest floor.
             | 
             | I'm not proselytizing this course of action, do as you
             | please. But I think it's nice and something most don't
             | consider.
        
               | a_wild_dandan wrote:
               | I received an HOA fine for reading this comment.
        
               | sumtechguy wrote:
               | You will receive a 75 dollar per day fine until the issue
               | is resolved.
        
               | cvccvroomvroom wrote:
               | Yep. Pine needles are the worst. Gutter guards are a
               | timesaver.
        
             | lostlogin wrote:
             | Compared to putting a blanket on the house, cleaning
             | gutters sounds trivial.
        
           | giardini wrote:
           | Trees large enough to shade your home will tear up your
           | foundation and house rodents (squirrels) that will nest in
           | the walls and A/C units. Trees and pests will deposit leaves,
           | branches and nuts on the roof which will clog gutters and
           | rainspouts. In storms, trees will tear the building down.
           | 
           | If you want a building then remove the trees. If you want
           | trees then create a park and put trees there. Separate the
           | treed areas from the buildings with distance and/or
           | (maintained) root barriers. Otherwise the trees et al will
           | tear the buildings down.
           | 
           | I saw a 12-story high-rise last week whose foundation has
           | been penetrated by "nice hardwood trees" they planted at the
           | base 20-odd years ago.
           | 
           | Similarly buildings don't belong on beaches or on cliffs. The
           | water/wind will always win. Camp on the beach, party on the
           | cliff but _never_ build on the beach or cliff.
        
             | lostlogin wrote:
             | This is a very dystopian approach to living.
             | 
             | Plenty of us live with a bit of nature nearby without
             | destroying each other.
        
             | craftkiller wrote:
             | I live in a building that was constructed 92 years ago.
             | There are plenty of trees around it and the building is
             | doing just fine.
        
               | cvccvroomvroom wrote:
               | Yep. It's usually the wrong tree species, wrong
               | placement, or poor maintenance that leads to problems. I
               | had 100'+ pine trees in my hard. Beetles were somewhat of
               | a problem but the woodpeckers were all over them and
               | systemics helped.
               | 
               | Grew up in an house with 60' Australian willows that
               | became too fragile and messy and were too close to a
               | structure. Also, never get lemon trees because thorns
               | from hell.
        
           | jskrablin wrote:
           | Big trees very close to a house? Not the best idea, you're
           | always a storm away from serious damage to the house. Tree
           | roots will also eventually damage any kind of surface around
           | the house or house foundation. And trees with shallow roots
           | are really probe to get knocked over in heavy wind.
        
             | cvccvroomvroom wrote:
             | There are different types of large trees with variations in
             | structural strength of root systems that can be planted far
             | enough away to not be a fire or mechanical hazard but close
             | enough for shade. Minimizing surface roots by choosing the
             | right species. Where I grew up, there was a storm with
             | straight line winds 110 mph that took out every fence but
             | only half of the trees and very few of the old trees.
        
         | throwaw33333434 wrote:
         | why not solar panels?
        
         | justinclift wrote:
         | > the black alternative for winter.
         | 
         | Vantablack maybe?
         | 
         | Though, you'd probably need good connections in the US DoD to
         | arrange it. ;)
        
           | willcipriano wrote:
           | Anyone who isn't Anish Kapoor can use Black 3.0 instead since
           | he refuses to share Vantablack.
           | 
           | https://www.culturehustleusa.com/products/black-3-0-the-
           | worl...
        
             | chipsa wrote:
             | Vantablack is only limited to Anish Kapoor for artwork.
             | This isn't artwork. However, it's also finicky to apply, so
             | Black 4.0 is much easier.
        
             | justinclift wrote:
             | Black 2/3/4 all have problems with reflectance. Apparently
             | Vantablack doesn't.
             | 
             | Haven't seen Vantablack in person, so not super sure. Black
             | 2.0 and 3.0 I've used though, and wasn't super impressed.
        
               | willcipriano wrote:
               | I 3d print busts to paint and give to friends and family.
               | If I put a few coats of black 3.0 on it gets very hot in
               | the sun to the point it can melt the glue that holds the
               | parts together (the plastic isnt thermoplastic so that's
               | fine). I think it would work great for this purpose.
        
       | alberth wrote:
       | While this material is very exciting, wherever the reflection
       | lands upon can cause real damage and is a problem.
       | 
       | It's not uncommon for developers of office buildings that use a
       | lot of glass, get sued (and win) by neighbors because the light
       | reflected from the glass building causes damage to their
       | property.
        
         | tecleandor wrote:
         | In this case it's diffuse reflection, not a mirror, so it
         | doesn't cause any burns, hot spots or similar stuff on near
         | locations. It would just look like a very white surface.
        
           | alberth wrote:
           | I might be missing it, but where in the article do you see it
           | diffuses the reflection?
        
             | josephcsible wrote:
             | The picture, where it looks white and not like a mirror.
        
             | tecleandor wrote:
             | It says it 'efficiently scatters almost the entire spectrum
             | of sunlight'. Due to the scattering, the reflection is
             | diffuse.
             | 
             | It's also inspired in a beetle that has a beautiful matte
             | but very bright white shell: https://newatlas.com/beetle-
             | scales-white/53789/
        
               | alberth wrote:
               | I'm curious to know how effective this becomes after your
               | roof gets dirt & dust on it.
               | 
               | Having a "white" roof isn't a new thing. But most don't
               | do it because they quickly become dirty and look bad.
        
         | jacquesm wrote:
         | An extreme case of this sort of thing:
         | 
         | https://www.nbcnews.com/sciencemain/london-skyscraper-can-me...
        
       | jona-f wrote:
       | The youtuber NightHawkInLight made a video about a similar
       | coating (he is using CaCO3 whereas this here is using Al2O3)
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDRnEm-B3AI
       | 
       | It was also discussed here
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36579995
       | 
       | Would be interesting to know how the performance compares.
        
         | trickstra wrote:
         | Tech Ingredients youtube channel made something similar:
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNs_kNilSjk
        
           | vanderZwan wrote:
           | The top comment there is actually by NightHawkInLight, so
           | they seem to be having a friendly competition/mutual
           | inspiration in pushing this DIY technology forward :)
           | 
           | EDIT: curious to see if Tech Ingredients' barium sulfate or
           | NightHawkInLight's calcium carbonate will work out better in
           | the long run. The latter looks a lot easier to manufacture
           | though.
        
       | bell-cot wrote:
       | For regular buildings, the differences between 99.5%, 99.6%, etc.
       | mostly matter to the supplier's Marketing Dept. and Sales Dept.
       | (Vs. whoever's in charge of HVAC for the building it's installed
       | on.)
       | 
       | Though some of the other properties - especially withstanding
       | ~1,000 degC - make it sound pretty useful for military equipment
       | which might be facing weapon-grade lasers or nuclear fireballs.
        
         | lm28469 wrote:
         | > For regular buildings, the differences between 99.5%, 99.6%,
         | etc.
         | 
         | It's going to be <80% after a week in real life due to dust &co
         | anyways
        
           | bell-cot wrote:
           | Reaction I: Point...but no way it'll be <80% after a week!
           | 
           | Reaction II: OTOH, the article says zilch about the stuff
           | being dirt-repelling, or trivial to clean. And considering
           | just _how_ bad the air often gets, in some of the world 's
           | largest cities...
        
             | lm28469 wrote:
             | > the article says zilch about the stuff being dirt-
             | repelling
             | 
             | They talk about "nanostructures", I read it as "dust traps"
             | 
             | Just looking at my window stills give me a good idea of how
             | they'll look if they're anywhere remotely close to a road,
             | and that's in a "clean" western european city
        
           | instagib wrote:
           | I was reading that in some humid areas they pipe out their
           | grey water or fresh water and disperse it onto their roofs to
           | combat radiant heat from the sun to keep homes cooler.
        
             | WaitWaitWha wrote:
             | Can you give some references to this? I might have a place
             | I could use this.
        
           | lostlogin wrote:
           | Installation method is going to make more difference than
           | that too I'd have thought.
        
         | joosters wrote:
         | What the article needed was a comparison with 'normal' white
         | paint, otherwise reporting 99.6% is not meaningful. The linked
         | story https://newatlas.com/materials/super-white-paint-
         | teflon-98-s... mentions that traditional paint reflects 85% of
         | solar radiation.
         | 
         | 85% -> 99.6% is an improvement, but not like a game-changer.
        
           | bell-cot wrote:
           | 85% -> 99.6% is a ~35X reduction is absorbed solar energy.
           | _Definitely_ a game-changer. (Assuming it holds up in real-
           | world use, etc.)
        
             | jerf wrote:
             | No, it isn't necessarily. 99.6% to 99.9999996% would be a
             | "one million X" reduction in absorbed solar energy, but it
             | would be of no consequence whatsoever because it would be
             | well below the noise floor of any useful effect (see other
             | people's comments about dust, etc.). The multiplicative
             | factor of the reduction itself is not the relevant thing
             | here. The real effect on a building would have to be
             | measured.
        
               | 4gotunameagain wrote:
               | yes, but when buildings painted white already get warm
               | from sunlight, we can safely say that a ~35x reduction
               | will be meaningful, as opposed to the example you
               | provided where there will be no observable effect as you
               | correctly pointed out.
        
         | hinkley wrote:
         | Roofing your house in a fire prone area. Combined with
         | hardyboard siding and you could survive quite a bit.
        
           | jonhohle wrote:
           | Roofing tile was the first thing I thought of as well. In
           | Phoenix having a ceramic, heat tolerant, moldable, reflective
           | material seems optimal for tiled roofs, or even as an
           | addition to flat roofs.
           | 
           | I wonder if it can be used in spray applications like other
           | ceramic coatings.
        
         | carreau wrote:
         | While I agree this is marketing stunts in general, sometime the
         | difference between 99.5 and 99.6 reemission is 0.5 vs 0.4
         | percent absorption. so one way of seeing it the second one is
         | 20% better than the first one at not heating the building.
         | 
         | This is often the case for percentages "close" to 100%, e.g:
         | with LED efficiency, for powerful LEDs the problem is not the
         | quantity of light emitted but dissipating the heat that may
         | need active cooling, so what may look like a few percent
         | improvement is luminosity may actually be a much stronger
         | decrease of the size of active cooling,
         | 
         | Or semi-transparent mirrors in physics, where you really make a
         | difference between 99.95 and 99.96% reflectance, because what
         | you really look at the transmitance.
        
         | Aeroi wrote:
         | Yeah, I mean how does this material actually perform on a roof?
         | Is there a measurable difference in the marginal gain of 95% to
         | 99.6% when analyzing inside temperature of a house or energy
         | reduction as a result?
         | 
         | There seems to be many factors when looking at the actual cause
         | and effect especially when cost is introduced.
        
       | somedude895 wrote:
       | Funny that in a lot of Sci-Fi of the non-dystopian type white and
       | shiny materials often seem to be widely used. I suppose they made
       | it like that due to white looking clean, sleek and welcoming, so
       | it would be cool if it actually turned out that way.
        
         | _jal wrote:
         | It codes as "clean" and "controlled".
         | 
         | It also implied clean energy tech at a time when that was also
         | mostly science fiction.
        
       | Gys wrote:
       | Ideally this could switch to ultra-black for the Winter months ;)
        
         | Spivak wrote:
         | I mean you joke but there's no reason you couldn't.
        
         | BizarroLand wrote:
         | There's an old solar heating method that does something
         | similar. Build a large glass box with a wooden frame, and in
         | the middle of that box place a bunch of bricks that have been
         | painted black.
         | 
         | Place an air vent at the bottom and a tube out of the top, and
         | route that tube into your house, and cover the inlet with a
         | heavy sheet of plastic.
         | 
         | Place the entire contraption in the sunniest spot on your
         | property. When the sunlight hits the bricks they will heat up,
         | and the convection will cause an updraft.
         | 
         | Once the updraft pressure is high enough to lift the plastic,
         | it will spray hot air into your home, and when it is too cold
         | the plastic will stop a backdraft from drawing air out of your
         | home.
         | 
         | Additionally, the bricks serve as thermal mass so the heat will
         | continue for several hours after sundown.
         | 
         | You can improve the performance by replacing the open air inlet
         | with a tube that goes to a colder place in your home so that
         | the convection circulates the air in your house.
        
           | teachrdan wrote:
           | This is an amazing demonstration of low-technology. Is this
           | documented anywhere with diagrams?
        
             | BizarroLand wrote:
             | IDK, I read about it in an issue of Mother Earth News I
             | think?
        
             | BizarroLand wrote:
             | Found one of the ones I've read:
             | 
             | https://www.motherearthnews.com/sustainable-
             | living/renewable...
        
           | dntrkv wrote:
           | I recently bought a property that has a cooling system
           | similar to this. The difference in my case is that there are
           | tunnels underneath the foundation containing rocks. Once the
           | temp inside the house reaches a certain point, there are fans
           | that blow the accumulated hot air in the "greenhouse" through
           | those tunnels. It works, but I'm tearing it all out. It's an
           | eyesore and I rather have proper temp control.
        
             | fudged71 wrote:
             | This is the state of the art type of system for greenhouse
             | heat retention, one that I dream of owning. I can't imagine
             | how an underground system would be an eyesore, the ducts
             | going to the roof?
        
               | dntrkv wrote:
               | The glass panels lean against the side of the house. It
               | was built in the 80s and wasn't all that well
               | implemented.
        
         | fudged71 wrote:
         | I wonder if e-ink technology can scale to large sized roof
         | tiles.
         | 
         | I live in the north and I think it's remarkable that we don't
         | use some form of white/black transitions or convertible awnings
         | etc for regulating temperature.
        
         | Synaesthesia wrote:
         | Black is a better emitter of heat, so if your home is warmer
         | than the surroundings, it will actually make you colder. That
         | said, infrared radiation is a small contributor to cooling at
         | those temperatures, good insulation is the biggest factor by
         | far.
        
       | tromp wrote:
       | These ceramic tiles were also discussed 2 days ago at
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38227486
        
       | agilob wrote:
       | >But these coatings have their issues, including durability.
       | 
       | Was thinking if that would be a good solution for frying pankings
       | made from dark bricks that's 50'C during summer, but probably
       | not?
        
         | lostlogin wrote:
         | It might be a good coating for the inside of fires, kilns etc.
         | though only for ones that are under the temperature rating.
        
       | satvikpendem wrote:
       | Will it cause something like snow blindness if I look at it?
        
       | kristiandupont wrote:
       | Is this better than mirrors or space blankets?
        
         | theultdev wrote:
         | Mylar will shred and is loud. Might as well do an aluminum roof
         | if you don't mind the noise.
         | 
         | Mirrors will crack and can reflect sunlight in unwanted ways
         | (directly into your neighbor's line of sight, into planes,
         | etc.)
        
           | kristiandupont wrote:
           | Right, I meant in terms of reflectivity.
        
       | ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
       | I predict the rise of the "Roof Cleaner," as a vocation.
       | 
       | That stuff will need to be kept pristine.
        
         | switchbak wrote:
         | That already exists though, I just paid a guy in a truck a
         | bundle of money to clean my roof. Maybe this is mostly a thing
         | in the PNW though?
        
           | kube-system wrote:
           | Building exteriors are regularly cleaned all over the world.
           | It's over a billion dollar industry in the US alone.
           | 
           | It would probably be even larger if more US roofs were
           | pristine white instead of dark asphalt.
        
             | ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
             | Yeah, but these will be a different breed. I know a number
             | of folks that power-wash buildings and roofs. It's a
             | cottage industry, hereabouts.
        
           | nvy wrote:
           | Definitely a PNW thing. The rain here causes moss and other
           | problems that aren't prevalent back east.
        
         | josefx wrote:
         | I can't wait for more molten car incidents when it becomes even
         | easier for curved designer buildings to focus massive amounts
         | of light at random points on the ground.
        
           | csours wrote:
           | This is diffuse reflection (rough), not specular like a
           | mirror.
        
             | TeMPOraL wrote:
             | Diffuse reflections still scare roughly with cos of
             | incidence angle, so diffuse-only panels arranged into
             | parabolic or spherical shell would still focus light, even
             | if much less efficiently.
        
           | soco wrote:
           | I assume you're referring to the walkie-talkie building in
           | London: https://globalnews.ca/news/1334377/car-melting-
           | london-skyscr...
        
         | throwaway20222 wrote:
         | Already lots of groups doing solar panel cleanings. I imagine
         | the venn diagram between people who invest in solar and in
         | these roofs may have some overlap.
        
         | javajosh wrote:
         | The iRobot Roofba!
        
       | contemporary343 wrote:
       | There's been a ton of development in super reflective materials
       | since the first demonstration of daytime radiative cooling at
       | Stanford in 2014. Ultimately though, reflectivity does drop with
       | dirt and pollution exposure over time, even for these kinds of
       | materials. So most super reflective materials plateau at a lower
       | number long term outdoors.
       | 
       | Also, just for reference, Spectralon, a sintered PTFE reflectance
       | standard has had this level of solar reflectance for decades. So,
       | in a sense, not that much new here. a sintered ceramic is gonna
       | be expensive and will have a hard time competing with the
       | simplicity of a paint based approach. Super white paints using
       | various pigments have been well studied the last 5 years.
        
         | gorkish wrote:
         | IMO simply being reflective is a dead end. Future materials
         | will have to absorb wideband energy and actively emit it in an
         | atmospheric bandgap to be effective enough to matter. I would
         | think this would be an excellent application for quantum dots
         | and have been sort of low-key waiting for an announcement or
         | paper to drop for the last year or two.
        
           | rickydroll wrote:
           | We also need to reduce aircraft contrails. Contrails increase
           | high-altitude clouds (cirrus and related), which blocks the
           | heat that would have been lost by radiative cooling. It isn't
           | hard to reduce contrails. We have the atmospheric data
           | telling us the height of and where clouds are likely to form.
           | Aircraft need to change altitude by 2000 ft from what was
           | planned to avoid the cloud-forming regions.
           | 
           | research paper
           | https://acp.copernicus.org/articles/19/8163/2019/
           | 
           | AI is helping reduce the problem
           | https://blog.google/technology/ai/ai-airlines-contrails-
           | clim...
        
             | piyh wrote:
             | Reducing contrails would cause more warming unless we have
             | a ton of these coatings out there
        
         | kulahan wrote:
         | We already pay to clean lots of buildings, and rain should help
         | with that too, no? Seems like this would be a very solvable
         | problem to me, but maybe I'm misunderstanding the problem
         | fundamentally.
        
           | zdragnar wrote:
           | The less rain you get (i.e. during a drought) the more you
           | tend to get dust in the air. We went through this last
           | summer; my dog would kick up clouds of dirt dust running
           | through our yard.
           | 
           | Worse than this, though, is the durability of the material.
           | Lots of these super reflective paints don't hold up very well
           | to rainwater (which itself is not especially clean or PH
           | neutral) or seasonal extremes.
           | 
           | Typically, you wouldn't want to paint the sides of buildings,
           | as that'll just reflect the light mostly down. You want it on
           | rooftops, which most people don't pay to clean frequently or
           | at all.
        
             | kulahan wrote:
             | This makes sense; I guess it just becomes a new added
             | expense with no _major_ benefit aside from maybe saving on
             | some cooling costs? Seems like a thing you 'd be able to
             | convince a company to buy into completely, but only once
             | it's cheap and durable.
        
           | wongarsu wrote:
           | Maybe it's just dirty coal plants and the nearby streets, but
           | rain seems to be the main reason why our windows get dirty.
           | 
           | You could add a lotus-effect coating, but given that window
           | cleaners are still in business I assume that is quite
           | expensive at scale.
        
         | lawlessone wrote:
         | >Ultimately though, reflectivity does drop with dirt and
         | pollution exposure over time, even for these kinds of
         | materials.
         | 
         | I guess this will be the new white washing?, like people used
         | to do on buildings 100 years ago.
        
       | felipemnoa wrote:
       | I wonder if you could just use mirror tiles? What would be the
       | reflectivity then?
        
         | hgomersall wrote:
         | I initially thought the same, but my current model is that the
         | mirror would also have a very low emissivity so you can't
         | passively cool (only not heat so much).
        
         | the_jeremy wrote:
         | Standard mirrors are only ~98% reflective
         | (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror#Reflectivity). For
         | example, "infinity mirrors" will fade as the number of
         | reflections increase
         | (https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/305329/are-
         | infin...).
        
       | torusle wrote:
       | I want this as a paint pigment please...
        
       | dgacmu wrote:
       | This article is a fairly terrible summary, particularly when it
       | comes to explaining the really neat thing about these coatings:
       | It's not just that they reflect a lot of inbound light, they also
       | radiate heat in a part of the infrared spectrum that can pass
       | transparently through the atmosphere.
       | 
       | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_daytime_radiative_co...
       | 
       | Which is one of the major reasons that these specialized coatings
       | are better than just white paint or mirrors or things like that.
       | They can actually cool the structure to below ambient
       | temperature.
        
         | HPsquared wrote:
         | This is because the blue sky is very "cold". Point an infrared
         | thermometer up there and see... Very cold indeed.
        
           | wongarsu wrote:
           | Which usually objects can't fully exploit, because the heat
           | they radiate away is absorbed by their immediate
           | surroundings, which radiate part of it back towards them. You
           | can "cheat" that by radiating away heat in a spectrum that
           | isn't absorbed by anything, removing it from the area.
        
             | jessriedel wrote:
             | Basically. To be clear, it's not that you are worried about
             | getting "the same" heat reflected or otherwise radiated
             | back toward you. (The radiation emitted by your roof
             | doesn't appreciably change the radiation incident on your
             | roof from the atmosphere.) It's that if you are passively
             | emitting at some frequency you are _necessarily_ absorbing
             | at that frequency too (by the 2nd law). And you don 't want
             | to be absorbing at the frequency where the atmosphere is
             | opaque and hence warm. In contrast, it's fine to be
             | absorbing at the frequency where the atmosphere is
             | transparent, because then you're just exposed to cold outer
             | space.
        
               | dragontamer wrote:
               | I had no idea what you were talking about until I
               | remembered that infrared is just a Radio wave and
               | therefore everything is an antenna.
               | 
               | Antennas that are good at transmit at X frequency tend to
               | also be good at receiving X frequency necessarily. And
               | different 'colors' are nothing more than different
               | antenna resonance points.
        
             | eptcyka wrote:
             | You could use _chimneys_ that are coated by the irradiative
             | material on the inside, pointing all the IR up into the
             | sky.
        
           | dontwearitout wrote:
           | I had to look this up - apparently it's around 0C if you do
           | this! https://mynasadata.larc.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/20
           | 18-12...
        
         | bilsbie wrote:
         | It would be interesting to put these out at night and have them
         | drop a designated area below the dew point and collect water.
         | 
         | As I understand it, nighttime temps get near the dew point but
         | often don't hit it because water in the air releases so much
         | heat.
        
           | deepsun wrote:
           | Mold/algae will grow on the wet surfaces in a matter of days,
           | destroying the main promise of the material.
        
             | hamandcheese wrote:
             | Im not so sure. Mildew has to eat something. Assuming the
             | surface is kept clean and water is collected regularly, it
             | shouldn't be a major problem.
             | 
             | You don't see mildew growing on cars very often, do you?
             | Yet, growing up in Florida, I'd see few covered cars in the
             | morning all the time.
        
           | j-a-a-p wrote:
           | At night they would do the opposite what you suggest. A very
           | white surface would stay warmer, a black (in the sense of IR
           | black) surface would radiate heat better and cool below dew.
        
         | sandworm101 wrote:
         | And literally cool the planet. That ir that passes through the
         | atmosphere is heading into space, at least in clear days.
        
         | jessriedel wrote:
         | Even the wikipedia page is confusing for someone who knows
         | basic thermodynamics.
         | 
         | > PDRCs can be broadband in their thermal emittance capacity,
         | meaning they possess high emittance in both the solar spectrum
         | and atmospheric LWIR window (8 to 14 mm), or selective
         | emitters, meaning they narrowband emit longwave infrared
         | radiation only in the infrared window
         | 
         | It's not really that you want to avoid emitting thermal
         | radiation _per se_ at the frequencies where the atmosphere is
         | opaque. It 's that by the second law your _thermal_ (i.e.,
         | passive) emissivity is equal to your absorptivity, and you want
         | your absorptivity to be low in frequencies where the atmosphere
         | is opaque and hence is warm. In other words, by basic thermo
         | your passive behavior at each frequency is some value ranging
         | between insulative (reflective) to absorbtive (transparent). If
         | insulative, you will neither thermally emit nor absorb at that
         | frequency. If absorbtive, you will both thermally emit and
         | absorb at the frequency. So you want to be insulative at the
         | frequencies where you would be thermally coupled to the warm
         | atmosphere and you want to be conductive at the frequencies
         | where you would be thermally coupled to cold outer space.
        
         | contemporary343 wrote:
         | Most materials, aside from metals, of sufficient thickness have
         | high high infrared emissivity. All white paints, for example,
         | already did radiate heat upwards through the atmospheric
         | window. These more reflective films are no more emissive than
         | previous paints (they're all quite emissive to begin with!)
         | 
         | The only difference, optically speaking, really is that they
         | are better solar reflectors.
        
       | yownie wrote:
       | DIY version.
       | 
       | https://hackaday.com/2023/07/22/that-ultra-white-paint-that-...
        
       | medion wrote:
       | Meanwhile, in places like Australia - councils regulate roof
       | colours and there are laws against light and reflective roofs -
       | dark roofs are actually forced upon.
        
         | amne wrote:
         | how can they justify teh cost of cooling in the summer?
        
       | aregue wrote:
       | How do these tiles compare to a green roof where there is some
       | cooling via water evaporation through plants?
        
       | nfriedly wrote:
       | My dad lived in a trailer for a little while, and he painted the
       | roof white one summer. It lowered the inside temperature by a few
       | degrees - I don't recall the exact number, but enough that it was
       | noticeable.
        
       | Mistletoe wrote:
       | I kind of just wish we would skip it and put solar panels on
       | everything.
       | 
       | https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fenvs.2014.0001...
       | 
       | "Solar panels reduce both global warming and urban heat island."
        
       | cvccvroomvroom wrote:
       | Interesting. Barium Sulfate (Spectraflect) was likely the
       | previous record holder at 98%.
        
         | tomkinstinch wrote:
         | Depending on the wavelength, Spectralon (sintered PTFE powder)
         | is a bit better. At least until it gets dirty.
        
       | DontchaKnowit wrote:
       | Can you imagine how awful a city with buildungs made out of this
       | material would be? It would be completely blinding.
        
       | dzonga wrote:
       | in places like Taiwan - buildings tend to be covered with tile
       | outside.
       | 
       | now it occurs to me - must be way for passive cooling.
        
       | next_xibalba wrote:
       | But can I put it on my teeth?
        
       | jwineinger wrote:
       | Would ultra-black siding help warm my house appreciably in
       | Minnesota winter?
        
       | deepsun wrote:
       | Wouldn't mold/algae grow on its surface, almost immediately
       | disrupting its magic feature?
        
       | smileysteve wrote:
       | We have so much to do before "ultra-white" really matters;
       | 
       | Most buildings aren't white, or even close to white;
       | 
       | Streets -- and parking lots in many areas take up much more
       | surface area, and they're mostly painted black, and they create
       | heat islands. Phoenix changed the color _slightly_ and saw great
       | results https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/is-phoenixs-cool-
       | pavement-...
        
         | kadoban wrote:
         | Extra passive cooling on a building has more immediate local
         | effects, namely if my house is cooler I don't have to run the
         | A/C as much. A/C is a _huge_ power suck, so avoiding even a
         | little is huge.
        
       | j-a-a-p wrote:
       | One bummer is that modern building codes ask for better
       | insulating roofs. Think 15 cm mineral wool. Because of this it
       | does not so much matter anymore how hot the roof becomes at the
       | exterior.
       | 
       | I doubt if you earn back the investment.
        
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