[HN Gopher] Show HN: Open-source digital stylus with six degrees...
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       Show HN: Open-source digital stylus with six degrees of freedom
        
       Author : jcparkyn
       Score  : 542 points
       Date   : 2023-11-12 20:48 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (github.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
        
       | extraduder_ire wrote:
       | Outside tracking with a camera is not something I would have
       | thought of. Seems cool.
       | 
       | Reminds me of how sad I am nobody's done a good job of cheaply
       | cloning the lighthouse tech that valve/htc use.
        
         | jcparkyn wrote:
         | I should point out that I'm not the first person to use camera
         | tracking for this [1], but to my knowledge there hasn't
         | previously been a serious attempt to combine it with inertial
         | or pressure sensors (which are both necessary for competing
         | with graphics tablets) or make it open-source.
         | 
         | [1] http://media.ee.ntu.edu.tw/research/DodecaPen/
        
           | two_handfuls wrote:
           | Isn't camera tracking + inertial sensors exactly how the
           | Oculus Rift headset & controller tracking worked?
        
             | jcparkyn wrote:
             | Yes (or something like that, I don't know all the details),
             | but they use infra-red light which requires a dedicated
             | camera. I think they might also require more than one
             | camera (although it is possible to do monocular IR
             | tracking).
        
         | mtsr wrote:
         | AFAIK you can actually get the sensors used for tracking at
         | somewhat OK prices. But iirc the sensors actually do some part
         | of the position calculations and as such aren't simple enough
         | to be really cheap.
        
           | r2_pilot wrote:
           | Yep, they're actually just tiny solar panels! I got several
           | trying to figure out how to use the lighthouse system. Not
           | enough hours in the day and at the time there wasn't enough
           | compute in a small package cheap enough for me.
        
       | charcircuit wrote:
       | Too bad this wasn't made as an OpenXR API layer so that it could
       | be used with existing software
        
         | noddingham wrote:
         | It's open source so...
        
         | ipsum2 wrote:
         | The great thing is that its open source, so you can add
         | whatever niche APIs you want to it!
        
           | charcircuit wrote:
           | Why would I be the one to do that? I already have a pressure
           | sensitive 6dof stylus that is compatible with openxr.
           | 
           | OpenXR isn't a niche API when you are dealing with 6dof input
           | devices.
        
             | cududa wrote:
             | I know this might be shocking, but OP didn't make this for
             | you. There's actually all sorts of people out there making
             | all sorts of things without considering your specific needs
        
               | charcircuit wrote:
               | Why are you using that tone? I never had the intention to
               | use this. I am just stating that there is a missed
               | opportunity that exists. Why are you implying that I want
               | this as feature for me to use?
        
               | jcparkyn wrote:
               | I'll chime in and say that OpenXR integration is a good
               | suggestion, just not something I had the time/effort to
               | implement (this is a university project, after all, and
               | was focused more on the core tracking tech). I think
               | people just took issue with the way you phrased your
               | original comment.
        
               | bloopernova wrote:
               | Please don't feed the troll. They're being deliberately
               | argumentative.
        
             | grodriguez100 wrote:
             | > Why would I be the one to do that?
             | 
             | Because you are the one who is complaining.
        
               | bloopernova wrote:
               | Please don't feed the troll. They're picking fights on
               | purpose.
        
       | slaucon wrote:
       | The rolling shutter compensation is pretty cool and isn't
       | something I would have thought of. Did you know that would be an
       | issue from the start or notice it only after you built the rest
       | of the system?
        
         | jcparkyn wrote:
         | I knew it would have an effect (most of the literature for
         | similar projects just uses global shutter cameras for this
         | reason), but wasn't sure how significant it would be. It turned
         | out to be small enough that it usually wasn't super noticeable,
         | but in certain cases it really showed up (e.g., rotating the
         | pen while keeping the tip in one place).
         | 
         | The thing I was most surprised by was how effective my solution
         | was, given that it's a pretty gross approximation of reality.
         | There are lots of much more sophisticated techniques for
         | dealing with it, which I didn't end up needing.
         | 
         | One thing I would've liked to try out is using rolling-shutter-
         | aware PnP [1], which can theoretically estimate pose and
         | velocity simultaneously from one image, by exploiting the
         | rolling shutter distortions.
         | 
         | [1] https://www-
         | sop.inria.fr/members/Philippe.Martinet/publis/20...
        
       | ipsum2 wrote:
       | Very cool! It has the added benefit of being able to manipulate
       | objects in 3d. How does it compare to graphic tablets in terms of
       | accuracy?
        
         | jcparkyn wrote:
         | Currently it's not quite at the level of graphics tablets, but
         | it's not too far off, and I think there's quite a bit of
         | potential to improve it using similar techniques [1].
         | 
         | In terms of absolute accuracy, I measured an average error of
         | 0.89mm (for the position of the tip) across the entire area of
         | an A4 page with the camera in one place. In practice you have
         | more precision than that though, because most of the errors are
         | constant biases (not random noise).
         | 
         | For example, here's one of the tests [2] I did for the thesis,
         | which compares the recorded stroke to what I actually wrote
         | (scanned from carbon paper). After aligning the two captures
         | (as a global 2D position offset, everything else is retained),
         | the average distance from the recorded stroke to the scan was
         | 0.158mm.
         | 
         | [1] This paper (which I linked in another comment) uses some
         | more advanced techniques for pose estimation which could
         | definitely be applied here (but it's closed-source, and I
         | didn't have time to re-implement it from scratch):
         | http://media.ee.ntu.edu.tw/research/DodecaPen/
         | 
         | [2] https://github.com/Jcparkyn/dpoint/files/13329235/main-
         | sketc...
        
           | moritonal wrote:
           | Brings back joyful memories of me begging random Professors
           | from around the world over email for the source code of their
           | papers.
        
           | abdullahkhalids wrote:
           | Nice. It seems there is a systematic error towards the edges
           | of the paper, which can easily be fixed in software.
           | 
           | Though it would be nice to do more tests. For example, there
           | is some error when drawing sharp corners. It would be
           | instructive to see how that changes as you change the angle,
           | etc. And how that changes based on location on the paper.
        
           | orbital-decay wrote:
           | One thing with using graphic tablets for handwriting and
           | drawing in practice is you _really_ want your stylus to be
           | thin, lightweight (15-20g), and have either neutral center of
           | gravity or balanced towards the tip slightly. Also preferably
           | battery-free (non-Wacom tablets were forced to use batteries
           | due to patents, not anymore).
           | 
           | Until it's solved, the better practical use for this is
           | probably a controller for VR or 3D software.
        
       | tomcam wrote:
       | > This project was part of my undergraduate thesis for electrical
       | engineering. I
       | 
       | Undergrad! If you didn't get top marks on this there is no
       | justice
        
         | jcparkyn wrote:
         | Thanks! I'll get results in about two weeks (fingers crossed)
        
         | an_aparallel wrote:
         | uni marks != quality :-) I agree with you though.
        
         | cududa wrote:
         | I scrolled down to the picture first and the desk made me
         | instantly think "ah, a dorm room"
        
         | master-lincoln wrote:
         | Why do you think so? When I was doing undergrad, the emphasis
         | was on scientific work. So novelty or applicability were not
         | important for grades, but if your written communication about
         | it was scientific. I didn't see a write-up of this project, so
         | I couldn't judge it grade wise
        
           | Naracion wrote:
           | I agree, and this is one of the things that are problematic
           | with academia. Not that scientific rigor / work /
           | dissemination shouldn't be rewarded--it should. But so should
           | work like OP's.
        
       | bloopernova wrote:
       | Very cool. They've done what I've daydreamed about, and actually
       | got it to work!
       | 
       | When I played _Elite: Dangerous_ I used a  "hand on throttle and
       | stick" (HOTAS) setup, along with foot pedals. I couldn't help but
       | think that there must be a better way to control a spaceship:
       | your ship can pitch, yaw, and roll in addition to being able to
       | fire thrusters in 6 directions.
       | 
       | I wanted a handheld ship model that I could move such that the
       | ship in _Elite_ would move in the same way. The linked project
       | looks like it could do just that. Thrust would be controlled in a
       | similar way, but with my other hand.
       | 
       | Strange or new input models like that are so amazing to me. Our
       | imagination can really fly high with these sorts of capabilities.
        
         | squigz wrote:
         | This is why 2 sticks is a fairly common setup for space games
        
         | Arelius wrote:
         | I still hold onto my SpaceOrb369 for this sort of game. There
         | is a guy that makes a converter to make it work over USB...
         | 
         | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceOrb_360
         | 
         | https://www.tindie.com/products/vputz/orbotron-9001-version-...
        
           | myself248 wrote:
           | I have the slightly newer version, branded by HP as the
           | SpacePilot, and use it daily in Fusion 360 CAD. It has a
           | native USB connection, and 6 user-definable hotkeys below an
           | unimpressive LCD.
           | 
           | It requires some old drivers that aren't officially supported
           | (why would they remove support for perfectly good hardware
           | from the newer drivers? To send good stuff to the landfill,
           | of course!), but when Autodesk tried to move Fusion to the
           | new driver model exclusively, user outcry persuaded them to
           | leave the old drivers in as an option. Apparently there's
           | quite a few of us using those SpacePilots, and the phrase
           | "from my cold, dead fingers" comes up not infrequently.
        
             | Arelius wrote:
             | For sure, the HP one is a rebrand of the 3Dconnexion right?
             | 
             | Those are great, but nothing really compares to the
             | original SpaceOrb360 controller form-factor for gaming IMO.
        
               | myself248 wrote:
               | Yup, as far as I can tell the HP one is literally just a
               | sticker and a different splash screen when the LCD powers
               | up, it's otherwise 100% identical to the 3dconnexion
               | original. Just slightly cheaper because of keyword
               | search.
               | 
               | I haven't used the SpaceOrb360 but it looks like it would
               | be a lot of wrist strain to hold it and use it for long
               | periods. But I like the button placement under the right
               | hand... hmm.
               | 
               | With the SpacePilot, I have my right hand on the keyboard
               | or mouse so I can bind whatever buttons I want, and I
               | suppose I could one-hand a regular controller and get
               | A/B/X/Y/stick/triggers in my right hand instead. Hmm.
               | Would that be easier on the wrists than melding the two
               | together? I'm not sure. It would certainly give me more
               | buttons to play with...
        
             | w-ll wrote:
             | I plugged in my old SpacePilot Pro the other day and was so
             | dissapointed that the drivers where so outdated, and like
             | nothing was working.
        
           | lowbloodsugar wrote:
           | If you weren't playing Descent with this you were losing.
        
         | tadfisher wrote:
         | In the sci-fi series _The Expanse_ , the _Rocinante_ is
         | controlled in part by a 3DConnexion SpaceMouse, commonly used
         | in CAD and 3D modeling.
        
         | pests wrote:
         | I always imagined a sphere suspended / held by a minimum number
         | of strings (or rods?) / attachments. By physically pushing,
         | pulling, and twisting the sphere you could detect these
         | movements via compression and tension in the attachments. You
         | could motorize those strings/rods to give resistence and
         | feedback to the piloting.
        
           | bloopernova wrote:
           | Yeah that's almost exactly what I was daydreaming of! Weaker
           | gyroscopes might mean a ship can rotate in one direction
           | slower than others, and feedback to a controller could model
           | that for the user.
        
         | navane wrote:
         | this 6dof "joystick" has been around for decades:
         | https://3dconnexion.com/nl/spacemouse/
        
           | two_handfuls wrote:
           | This. Sadly the drivers suck.
        
             | Isthatablackgsd wrote:
             | Would it help with scripting macro software such as
             | AutoHotKey? I imagine it wouldn't pick up some inputs due
             | to proprietary driver.
             | 
             | It have the same issue for my Logitech G600 that it can't
             | pick up some inputs. I set up the macros in LGHUB with
             | keystrokes (multiple modifiers with keys) and use AHK to
             | grab those and expands the capabilities of my G600 than
             | what LGHUB offers.
        
               | two_handfuls wrote:
               | Exactly, the inputs aren't exposed as extra axes so those
               | tools don't see them.
        
               | Isthatablackgsd wrote:
               | Could it help if the driver have those axes assigned to a
               | different key to allow AHK to pick that up and AHK can
               | change it as axes? I done that with my XP-PEN AC-19, I
               | assigned the dial wheel to different keys in XP-PEN
               | software and AutoHotInterception with AHK to pick that
               | up. Then assigned it with wheelup/down depending on what
               | active window I am on.
        
             | abe_m wrote:
             | There is an opensource driver package for Unix type
             | systems[1]. I find them to be pretty reliable. The stock
             | Windows drivers do leave something to be desired.
             | 
             | [1] https://spacenav.sourceforge.net/
        
             | radarsat1 wrote:
             | I've always found it fascinating that companies that makes
             | specialized hardware devices like this lean so hard into
             | proprietary _software_ , as if that's the thing that gives
             | them the edge on the competition.
             | 
             | If anything the hardware is the hard part to copy and open
             | source drivers could do nothing but benefit them and ensure
             | wide platform compatibility and longevity, and yet so many
             | companies like this insist on closing things up and forcing
             | hackers to reverse engineer everything. It's bizarre logic
             | to me.
        
           | marcosdumay wrote:
           | I've never found an explanation of what exactly is in that.
           | 
           | Is it a track-ball, a rotary encoder, and a 3D stick?
        
             | abe_m wrote:
             | I don't know exactly, but using one, it has the sensation
             | of using the trackpoint on a Thinkpad. The puck you push,
             | pull, and twist to make the motion is a bit springiness.
             | The harder to push it, the faster the motion happens in the
             | software on screen. When you release, it springs back to
             | neutral. The old ones (late 90's vintage) had trouble
             | coming back to center, and there was a hot key to rezero it
             | if it was starting to drift. The newer ones don't seem to
             | have the issue.
        
             | lambda wrote:
             | There's a picture on the Wikipedia article:
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3Dconnexion and there's a
             | patent you can look at: https://patents.google.com/patent/U
             | S20050172711A1/en?oq=2005...
             | 
             | It's flexible, and there are LEDs and linear optical
             | sensors set up with an occluder in between that casts a
             | shadow (or passes a light through a slit, according to the
             | patent). The sensor detect where along the sensor the
             | shadow or light falls, which indicates how much you have
             | translated or rotated the control in a particular axis.
        
             | Doxin wrote:
             | Imagine a 3-axis joystick that can also sense translation.
             | So aside from pitch/roll/yaw you also get the linear up-
             | down/left-rigth/forward-back axises.
        
               | imsaw wrote:
               | I can see how pitch roll yaw would work, but I can't
               | imagine how linear movements are made on the same
               | joystick? Maybe up and down is push and pull but what
               | about the other directions? Do you push the device
               | itself?
        
               | numpad0 wrote:
               | Looks like current incarnation is Stewart platform
               | lookalike optical setup for all axes[1]. I misspoke in a
               | different comment: Mine was older SpaceBall 5000 model,
               | and it was more like two joysticks joined at the stem.
               | 
               | 1:
               | https://www.fictiv.com/teardowns/spacenavigator-3d-mouse-
               | tea...
        
               | taeric wrote:
               | The trick in comparing it to a joystick is that it can
               | distinguish between tilting the control to a side, and
               | pushing the control to the side. Does that help?
               | Similarly, it can detect pushing straight down and
               | pulling straight up.
        
             | numpad0 wrote:
             | It's a knob that spring back to its origin when let go,
             | that can move ~45 degrees or ~1/4" each axes(subjectively).
             | It feels a bit like those old bobbing dashboard toy in
             | hand.
             | 
             | Mechanically, it's something like an Rx/Rz two-axis
             | joystick with sliding knob part on top that can be slid in
             | X/Y, pushed/pulled in Z and twisted in Ry as well. All axes
             | are spring centered.
        
           | RF_Savage wrote:
           | And it works surprisingly well for Descent. The original
           | 3dconnexion one worked first try on linux too.
        
           | oceanghost wrote:
           | Yup. Use one every day for Fusion360 and Blender.
        
         | matheusmoreira wrote:
         | > I couldn't help but think that there must be a better way to
         | control a spaceship
         | 
         | Two sticks?
         | 
         | https://old.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/16xi20a/dua...
         | 
         | https://youtu.be/T2-IHgNYaKA
        
           | jessriedel wrote:
           | Yep. I played Descent II this way and it was glorious.
        
           | bloopernova wrote:
           | That's really nice, before now I hadn't really understood how
           | to use 2 sticks, but now it makes sense.
           | 
           | I used a CH Pro throttle, which has enough hats to sort of
           | mimic that 2 stick action. Main throttle back forward for
           | main engine and retros. A smaller thumb stick/hat for each of
           | Y and Z axis.
           | 
           | https://www.chproducts.com/Pro-Throttle-v13-d-719.html
        
             | sundvor wrote:
             | That works wonderfully with VKB's STECS, which lets you
             | swap physical detent profiles in roughly 20 seconds. So you
             | have a forward/backward axis on your throttle with a well
             | defined "W" centre point, plus a high quality thumb stick
             | for your lateral/vertical thrusters.
             | 
             | (In case anyone is wondering, I transitioned from the
             | Warthog throttle with DeltaSim's slew mod with zero issues,
             | I find the STECS Standard way more versatile and flexible).
             | 
             | I couple this with a Gunfighter Ultimate stick (V3), and
             | Crosswinds pedals, all profile mounted. (My GFU grip has
             | twist, but I don't use it.)
             | 
             | When you add TrackIR in my case (or VR for others), there's
             | quite a bit of immersion going on! :-)
             | 
             | I play DCS and Star Citizen these days, also used to fly
             | Elite Dangerous though. Building the combined quad screen
             | workstation / simrig has been a wonderful side project over
             | the past few years. ;)
        
         | userbinator wrote:
         | Given that a spaceship isn't all that different from a fixed-
         | wing aircraft, and the stick + pedals arrangement has become a
         | standard for controlling the latter for over a century, I think
         | it'd be hard to improve on.
        
           | marcellus23 wrote:
           | The difference is that spaceships have thrusters, so they
           | have the ability to accelerate up, down, left, or right, in
           | addition to all the controls of a fixed-wing aircraft
           | (throttle + stick + pedals).
        
           | hooverd wrote:
           | With no gravity or drag they're way different.
        
           | lowbloodsugar wrote:
           | Do fixed wing aircraft spend a lot of the time going
           | backwards? Do they, for example, need to turn around and
           | point their engine in the direction of travel in order to
           | slow down? If a fixed wing accelerates to 1000mph and then
           | rotates it's nose by 90 degrees, how fast is it going and in
           | what direction? What about a space craft?
        
             | nkrisc wrote:
             | > If a fixed wing accelerates to 1000mph and then rotates
             | it's nose by 90 degrees, how fast is it going and in what
             | direction?
             | 
             | I don't know how fast, but depending on which axis it
             | rotates on and how fast, it may be going in several
             | directions at once.
        
               | lowbloodsugar wrote:
               | Lol, right?
        
         | mulmen wrote:
         | There's an entire rabbit hole of dual stick setups for space
         | games. Quack HOSAS to get started.
        
           | bloopernova wrote:
           | Ok Quack is adorkable.
           | 
           | What would be the word for "To Kagi"? They use "Fetch" in the
           | search field, but it hasn't really stuck with me.
        
             | master-lincoln wrote:
             | Why mention the provider instead of using the verb you use
             | the provider for? You want to "search" for something.
             | 
             | You wouldn't say I am AT&Ting or AOLing for browsing the
             | internet or Honda-ing / Ducati-ing for using the motorcycle
        
         | sillysaurusx wrote:
         | One of my fondest memories is when I was 16 or so. I bought a
         | 3D mouse (it's like a mouse that you can control by waving it
         | around) and taped it onto a hat that said Marines. Then I
         | immediately went into CS: Source and got ready to annihilate
         | everyone.
         | 
         | I think I played about the same, but it would've been funnier
         | if I'd gotten creamed.
         | 
         | The theory was that my head is much more precise than my hands,
         | so using a combination of both should improve my aim. It might
         | sound like you'll end up looking left and trying to see out of
         | the corner of your eye, but in practice the two-mouse system
         | ends up working out. I've always wanted to revive the idea for
         | modern times, but you end up looking like a huge dork with a
         | dildo glued to your head. I like that style though.
         | 
         | Your idea sounds way cool. You should make it!
        
           | pxndxx wrote:
           | Modern consoles (and modern controllers I assume) can do this
           | "double-input" for aiming, using a joystick and a gyroscope.
           | I'm still bad at shooters, but it feels super good. Plus you
           | don't look like a huge dork with a dildo glued to your head.
        
         | blechinger wrote:
         | The folks at Sublight Dynamics had a really neat product in
         | this vein that I was excited about. Seems like the perfect
         | flightsim controller. They had trouble getting fully to market.
         | Website is still up though so I'm holding out hope!
        
         | Matumio wrote:
         | If you like the puzzle of firing thrusters manually, try "DV:
         | Rings of Saturn". The game is 2D, but you get six keys to
         | individually fire different thruster combos, and a separate key
         | to fire the main engine.
         | 
         | Then try staying in control with an unbalanced ship, or after
         | you inevitably smashed one of the thrusters into a rock. It's a
         | pretty space-nerd game too, they simulate details like reaction
         | wheel saturation.
        
         | Terretta wrote:
         | > _I couldn 't help but think that there must be a better way
         | to control a spaceship: your ship can pitch, yaw, and roll ...
         | in 6 directions._
         | 
         |  _15 years later and I 'm still convinced that the SpaceOrb 360
         | is THE GREATEST GAME CONTROLER OF ALL TIME. See what I did with
         | the all cap there? It's the G.O.A.T. and it's a tragedy that it
         | lost the battle to "WASD" keyboard and mouse gaming and the
         | "two thumbs" style of controller._
         | 
         |  _If you 've ever tried a SpaceOrb, you probably already know
         | this. If you didn't live through the SpaceOrb's hayday (around
         | 1994-5 with the original Quake, and Descent, truly one of the
         | greatest games ever) then this post will sound like I'm a
         | crotchety old dude trying desperately to relive my the golden
         | hour of my youth. Ok, so you got me. What of it? ;)_
         | 
         | https://www.hanselman.com/blog/the-best-controller-for-fps-a...
         | 
         | Degrees of freedom:
         | https://hanselmanblogcontent.azureedge.net/WindowsLiveWriter...
         | 
         | I had purchased a box of these when they were going away, and
         | sponsored a custom driver. For a while there were other
         | solutions available, like OrbShield:
         | 
         | // via SeedStudio:
         | https://www.seeedstudio.com/Orbshield-v1-0-kit-p-671.html?qu...
         | 
         | // via Tindie:
         | https://www.tindie.com/products/vputz/orbotron-9001-version-...
        
       | lagrange77 wrote:
       | 1. Very cool project
       | 
       | 2. Helpful documentation
       | 
       | 3. Nice real world example for the use of a Kalman Filter!
        
       | jimmySixDOF wrote:
       | I'm a big fan of all things 6DOF ! Nice work on the hardware and
       | computer vision pose work but I am almost more impressed by the
       | software surface you are drawing into and able to rotate. Thats
       | interesting and could be used with any tangible user interface
       | control like a finger slider for the same effect. Good project
       | for problem solving skills looks like you nailed it bravo!
       | 
       | Btw the first 6DOF controller I had other (than a hacked WiiMote
       | controller as a ir led Bluetooth receiver [1]) was the logitec mx
       | air which was ahead of its day [2].
       | 
       | [1]
       | https://web.cs.ucdavis.edu/~okreylos/ResDev/Wiimote/MainPage...
       | 
       | [2] https://www.cnet.com/reviews/logitech-mx-air-review/
        
       | tomp wrote:
       | Very cool!
       | 
       | Could be useful for robotics / VR as well. One-camera hand
       | tracking anyone?
       | 
       | Question: could you use gyro+accel to track pressure as well? Or
       | at least "taps"?
       | 
       | Another question: how much does it cost? in particular, the
       | pressure sensor...
        
         | jcparkyn wrote:
         | 1: You could absolutely use gyro/accel for detecting taps, but
         | for proper pressure sensitivity (i.e., changing pressure in the
         | middle of a stroke), there's not much you can do except have a
         | pressure sensor. It's theoretically possible with a
         | sufficiently accurate pose estimate and a springy pen tip, but
         | not feasible at the level of accuracy I got.
         | 
         | 2: I paid about $20 AUD for the pressure sensor, but they can
         | be had for quite a bit cheaper (~$5 USD) in the US
         | (https://www.arrow.com/en/products/hsfpar003a/alps-electric).
         | Only problem is they're quite specialized, so not many places
         | sell them. The custom PCB was another $10AUD, and the Arduino
         | was about $20. There's a full parts list at
         | https://github.com/Jcparkyn/dpoint/blob/main/setup-guide.md.
        
       | crazygringo wrote:
       | Very cool. The use of a webcam really makes me wonder if there's
       | a future where our regular single ~78deg FOV webcams are going to
       | be replaced by dual (stereo) fisheye webcams that can:
       | 
       | - Enable all sorts of new UX interactions (gestures with eye
       | tracking)
       | 
       | - Enable all sorts of new peripheral interactions (stylus like
       | this, but also things like a steering wheel for racing games)
       | 
       | - Enable 3D 180deg filming for far more flexible webcam meetings,
       | including VR presence, etc.
       | 
       | The idea of being able to use the entire 3D space in front of
       | your computer display as an input method feels like it's coming,
       | and using a webcam the way OP describes feels like it's a little
       | step in that direction.
        
         | moritonal wrote:
         | I'm sadly bearish on this kind of stuff. The Mac touch-panel
         | showed that even a context-aware, reactive and fully integrated
         | input struggled to break the flow gained by keyboard+mouse.
         | 
         | Even today some people are still on the fence about the new
         | fangled mouse!
        
           | two_handfuls wrote:
           | The Mac touch bar sucked, that why it didn't gain traction.
        
             | moritonal wrote:
             | Likely valid, but can you say why it sucked? And why any
             | other input wouldn't struggle with the same faults?
        
         | mjcohen wrote:
         | I have an Anker PowerConf 300 webcam which (on Mac or Windows)
         | can go up to 115 degrees with the AnkerWork software.
        
         | swanee wrote:
         | I thought this was around the corner years ago when Intel and
         | partners had RealSense modules being built into laptops but it
         | seems like all the players have shifted focus to more
         | enterprise and industrial markets.
        
           | westurner wrote:
           | Wii Remote (2006), Wiimote Whiteboard (2007), Kinect (2010),
           | Leap Motion (2010- Ultraleap (2019)),
           | 
           | There are infrared depth cameras in various phones and laptop
           | cameras now.
           | 
           | [VR] Motion controllers:
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_controller#Gaming
           | 
           | Inertial navigation system:
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_navigation_system
           | 
           | Inertial measurement unit :
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_measurement_unit :
           | 
           | > _An inertial measurement unit (IMU) is an electronic device
           | that measures and reports a body 's specific force, angular
           | rate, and sometimes the orientation of the body, using a
           | combination of accelerometers, gyroscopes, and sometimes
           | magnetometers. When the magnetometer is included, IMUs are
           | referred to as IMMUs.[1]_
           | 
           | Moasure does displacement estimation with inertial
           | measurement (in a mobile app w/ just accelerometer or also
           | compass sensor data?) IIUC: https://www.moasure.com/
           | 
           | /? wireless gesture recognition RSSI: https://scholar.google.
           | com/scholar?q=wireless+gesture+recogn...
           | 
           | /? wireless gesture recognition RSSI site:github.com : https:
           | //www.google.com/search?q=wireless+gesture+recognition...
           | 
           | Awesome-WiFi-CSI-Sensing > Indoor Localization:
           | https://github.com/Marsrocky/Awesome-WiFi-CSI-
           | Sensing#indoor...
           | 
           | 3D Scanning > Technology, Applications:
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_scanning#Technology
           | 
           | Are there a limited set of possible-path-corresponding
           | diffraction patterns that NIRS (Near-Infrared Spectroscopy)
           | could sense and process to make e.g. a magic pencil with
           | pressure sensitivity, too?
           | 
           | /q.hnlog "quantum navigation":
           | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36222625#36250019 :
           | 
           | > _Quantum navigation maps such signal sources such that
           | inexpensive sensors can achieve something like inertial
           | navigation FWIU?_
           | 
           | From https://news.ycombinator.com/context?id=36249897 :
           | 
           | > _Can low-cost lasers and Rdyberg atoms e.g. Rydberg
           | Technology solve for [space-based] matter-wave
           | interferometry?_ [...] _Does a fishing lure bobber on the
           | water produce gravitational waves as part of the n-body
           | gravitational wave fluid field, and how separable are the
           | source wave components with e.g. Quantum Fourier Transform
           | /or and other methods?_
           | 
           | Because the digitizer
        
             | westurner wrote:
             | > _e.g. a magic pencil with pressure sensitivity, too?_
             | 
             | Wouldn't such a capability also be useful for surgical
             | AR/AI, robotics, and training?
        
         | 0x0203 wrote:
         | I'm sure you've heard of TrackIR, which can do head tracking
         | with some head-mounted reflectors. But without mounting
         | anything to your head, the tobii eye tracker can do both head
         | and eye tracking completely passively. It seems like adding
         | hand/finger gesture controls, and peripherals like stylus,
         | mouse, etc... would be an obvious next step, but it doesn't
         | look like they or anyone else is doing that.
        
       | mncharity wrote:
       | Nice. Especially the fusion.
       | 
       | Some random-ish thoughts from exploring "a laptop keyboard...
       | with hand pose, 3D stylus, and touch". Adding buttons yields a 3D
       | mouse - but camera coverage can be a pain. Note the body is
       | largely empty (and battery could be slimmed) - I could more-or-
       | less type while holding a slim chopstick/toothbrush-like stylus
       | (even with the markers, and a weirdly big tip). A big tip (sliced
       | from a ping-pong ball sized xmas decoration) could slide fairly
       | smoothly on a ThinkPad keyboard (and gave room for a less compact
       | force sensor, and an extra tip marker). Thin stranded silicone
       | ribbon cable can be string-like flexible - I just tethered the
       | stylus to an arduino to get started.
       | 
       | Hmm... I wonder what the inertial sensor might make of something
       | like a dimpled metal clicker, as a button (or three)?
        
       | sshkey wrote:
       | wow, very impressive project! really I love it, I will try to
       | build it one definitly.
        
       | ezconnect wrote:
       | Add a laser range finder on the camera and retroreflector on the
       | pen and we have a cheap implementation of a 3D measuring device.
        
       | wnolens wrote:
       | This is really cool, and right out of my dreams.
       | 
       | Since the move to full remote work at my company, I've been
       | longing for whiteboard sessions. The best I could conjure up was
       | to use an old iPad and load up a shared whiteboarding webapp in a
       | browser on both iPad and my desktop, and then share screen from
       | my desktop, using a cheapo stylus on the iPad to draw.
       | 
       | It's pretty good, but my iPad is super old and slow. Replacing it
       | is not affordable. But a conventional web cam + a relatively low-
       | tech stylus would be much better, and drop the need for an
       | external device completely.
        
         | abdullahkhalids wrote:
         | The cheapest Wacom tablet [1] is 67CAD. Other brands have
         | cheaper ones.
         | 
         | [1] https://wacomstore.ca/product/one-by-wacom-small/
        
       | sj4nz wrote:
       | Fantastic. I love that this is brand-independent, like buying a
       | mechanical keyboard.
        
       | joshuahhh wrote:
       | Impressive work! I wonder: is the inertial tracking sufficient to
       | cover for occasional occlusion of the markers?
        
         | jcparkyn wrote:
         | That depends what you consider "occasional", but for most
         | definitions the answer would be no. I'm sure there are better
         | ways to handle the inertial measurements than what I did, but
         | even so, double integration drift causes errors very very
         | quickly. I doubt it'd be possible to go over a second, and my
         | implementation struggled with anything over ~150-200ms.
         | 
         | However, it does an impressively good job with low camera frame
         | rates. I tested it at 10FPS (discarding every third frame), and
         | the results are barely distinguishable from 30FPS. Below that
         | it starts having difficulty.
        
       | denton-scratch wrote:
       | TFA mentions a gyroscope, but I don't see one in the assembly
       | diagram.
        
         | guhidalg wrote:
         | I believe the PCB has the IMU built into it along with the BT
         | module. https://wiki.seeedstudio.com/XIAO_BLE/
        
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