[HN Gopher] Nicotine (2016)
___________________________________________________________________
Nicotine (2016)
Author : blitz_skull
Score : 130 points
Date : 2023-11-11 14:21 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (gwern.net)
(TXT) w3m dump (gwern.net)
| roschdal wrote:
| Smoking will give you cancer, and nicotine will make you addicted
| so you can never ever stop.
| goodluckchuck wrote:
| The article wasn't talking about smoking, and nicotine is not
| addictive.
| Our_Benefactors wrote:
| Nicotine not addictive? That's a bold claim.
| goodluckchuck wrote:
| The article cites some fairly convincing studies that the
| addictiveness is from tobacco's other (non-nicotine)
| chemicals including MAOIs.
|
| Is smoking addictive? Absolutely, but not because it
| contains nicotine.
| bumby wrote:
| The articles seems much more inconclusive than your
| comment implies. On one hand, yes, they point out that
| MAOIs may be confounding. But they also say:
|
| "additional work since 2002 has clearly shown that
| nicotine alone does have some addictive properties"
|
| And, frustratingly, they point out that addiction effects
| can't be parsed out using smokers because of the
| confounding effects of other chemicals present in tobacco
| yet they quote a study using smokers to support the non-
| addiction claim.
| Findecanor wrote:
| If nicotine wasn't addictive then kids who never used
| tobacco wouldn't get hooked on vape, which they do.
| financltravsty wrote:
| DFosB expression is lower from nicotine than it is
| caffeine.
| mort96 wrote:
| I'm not familiar with the biochemistry involved or what
| exactly "DFosB expression" means, and I don't know if the
| term "addiction" is used in its strictly technical
| definition here (i.e activating the reward circuit) or if
| it's used to generally mean some form of dependence...
|
| but it's worth noting that caffeine dependence is pretty
| common.
| mort96 wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine
|
| > Nicotine is highly addictive.
|
| https://nida.nih.gov/publications/research-
| reports/tobacco-n...
|
| > Is nicotine addictive? Yes.
|
| ---
|
| If nicotine wasn't addictive, why would people find that
| nicotine patches or nicotine gum helps with withdrawals from
| various tobacco products?
| goodluckchuck wrote:
| Addiction is complex. Folks are generally addicted to a
| combination of things. For example they'll do a particular
| drug, sit in a particular environment, with or without a
| social element, with or without food. Utilizing one of the
| elements without the others helps break the association.
| Its the same thing on a smaller level.
| mort96 wrote:
| You're completely right! Addiction is complex!
|
| And nicotine is addictive.
| tjpnz wrote:
| Furthermore, why do people have withdrawal symptoms coming
| off the patches and gum?
| thecodedmessage wrote:
| These sources do not address the claims made in the
| article.
| mort96 wrote:
| You may be right, maybe those sources are examples of
| ones which mix up tobacco and nicotine.
|
| Let's take it from the article instead:
|
| > like all stimulants, nicotine may raise blood pressure
| somewhat, and is addictive to some degree, but the risks
| do not appear much more strikingly harmful than caffeine
| or modafinil
|
| And:
|
| > My take away is that there is addiction but it's
| drastically overestimated by almost everyone and may been
| conflated with the habit-formation capability
|
| I'm not criticizing the article, I'm disagreeing with the
| statement "nicotine is not addictive". I wouldn't have
| commented to disagree with a statement like "nicotine's
| addictiveness is exaggerated because it's conflated with
| tobacco's addictiveness", but that wasn't what
| goodluckchuck said
| antiframe wrote:
| I'll be your counter example. I'm no longer addicted.
| roschdal wrote:
| Logical fallacy of insufficient sample size. Do you work for
| the tobacco industry?
| trident5000 wrote:
| Nicotine is just terrible for you. Smoking is linked to
| alzheimers and I watched my grandfather smoke his pipe and
| decline cognitively with that disease. Im not sure if its only
| proven from the toxins in smoke or the nicotine but I would
| assume constricting the blood vessels (with nicotine) leads to
| plaque buildup in the body and brain.
|
| Because of the vessel constriction is stops healing in the body
| as well all the way to your bones dealing with microfractures and
| remodeling.
|
| That said, Ill have the occasional cigar.
| goodluckchuck wrote:
| You mean smoking is terrible for you. As the cited studies
| indicate, nicotine itself (delivered by patched / gum) is
| fairly harmless. Not completely risk free, but nothing at all
| like smoking.
| trident5000 wrote:
| No, I mean nicotine as I clearly indicated in my comment.
| It's not harmless and its ridiculous to think a drug that
| constricts the vessels and blood flow in your body would be
| so.
| mijoharas wrote:
| Like caffeine?
| otabdeveloper4 wrote:
| Good thing I don't drink coffee.
| trident5000 wrote:
| Is that a counterpoint? Pointing to something unrelated
| from the conversation. Maybe both arnt great for you?
| hatsix wrote:
| it's a great counterpoint, because they're is a lot of
| literature on the health effects of caffeine.
|
| > Maybe both aren't great for you?
|
| Maybe? You are the one making strong assertions about
| vasoconstrictors. Maybe you should take this opportunity
| to challenge your beliefs on this by digging into
| scientific literature.
|
| Also, "aren't great" is such a softening of your original
| opinion "just terrible". Why argue for your ignorance
| when there is actual scientific literature?
| insanitybit wrote:
| > It's not harmless and its ridiculous to think a drug that
| constricts the vessels and blood flow in your body would be
| so.
|
| Why? Because it increases blood pressure?
|
| That's a problem if it's chronic and severe, afaik a milk
| vasoconstrictive effect isn't going to kill you.
| lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
| > its ridiculous to think a drug that constricts the
| vessels and blood flow in your body would be [harmless]
|
| Without knowing more about human physiology, this
| physiological description is a boogeyman. Someone could
| describe the physiological effects of eating lettuce while
| making the same claim about said effect and it would be
| obvious to a layperson as nonsense only because they know
| the topic. It's not ridiculous to think this is possibly
| harmless in certain contexts.
| steeleyespan wrote:
| There's some studies suggesting nordic Snus (like all natural
| chew w/o chemicals added) is fairly harmless. Anecdotally
| I've read people highly addicted to it, so very suspicious of
| any claim that nicotine itself isn't addictive and just
| smoking is.
| goodluckchuck wrote:
| That computes with this article which discusses the
| addictiveness of naturally occurring MAOIs found in organic
| tobacco.
| Findecanor wrote:
| Snus is quite common in my country, Sweden. Many users are
| former smokers who "quit" by using snus instead as their
| source of nicotine. Users I know have said that they feel
| that it is highly addictive.
|
| Studies of snus users have indicated increased risks of
| cancer in the mouth, throat and gastrointestinal system but
| have not been conclusive as to how. There's also a newer
| type of snus not made from tobacco, with pure nicotine as a
| separate ingredient, but it has been studied much less.
|
| Nicotine is still widely considered harmful for the
| cardiovascular system though. I've had two surgeries this
| past year and been told to not even chew nicotine gum for a
| week before because of how nicotine in my system could lead
| to complications.
| steeleyespan wrote:
| It appears there are some conflicting studies, like with
| everything.
|
| My best interpretation is that nicotine itself probably
| isn't the-worst-thing-ever if it was restricted to
| occasional usage, like having a beer on the weekend.
|
| It's probably not a good idea to make a habit of though
| like with coffee.
|
| There's a theory floating around that it may help with
| long-Covid symptoms, but there's not a lot of evidence.
| This may be in part due to the general opposition towards
| tobacco as extremely unhealthy.
|
| I only heard of this because a neighbor says using
| nicotine gum restored her sense of smell.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9845100/
|
| Again, anecdotally I had a relative, very heavy smoker,
| who got Delta and had very mild symptoms. She's 80 and in
| pretty poor health. Others younger in the same household
| had it much worse.
|
| https://aacijournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s1
| 322...
| abecedarius wrote:
| Does snus have much flavor? I've wondered if the
| psychological part of nicotine addiction is much stronger
| when there's a smell/taste association with the drug
| effect. (I'm not a smoker, just seen a couple hints
| suggesting this.)
| jddj wrote:
| It does. It has a slight burning sensation on the gum
| (salt?) and has an earthy / spiced flavour.
|
| You don't taste it much unless you consume
| beer/coffee/water at the same, but if so the right brands
| and combinations can be quite pleasant.
|
| They also make menthol ones.
| carlmr wrote:
| Isn't caffeine a vasoconstrictor as well? Wouldn't that make
| coffee a silent killer?
| goda90 wrote:
| Maybe it is? It's really hard to know what things will cause
| damage over decades.
| trident5000 wrote:
| Theres a lot of people who are dumping caffeine for all sorts
| of reasons. Caffeine does indeed constrict blood vessels and
| thats probably not great tbh. But people (including myself)
| love their cup of coffee.
| rtpg wrote:
| Like... people do get addicted to caffeine right? I know
| people who drink a very large amount of coffee, who "can't
| function" without it, and who generally seem to be in a
| pretty bad shape.
|
| The behavior of a certain segment of the population with
| regard to coffee looks a hell of a lot like the stereotypical
| addictions to drugs, including just ending up in bad shape.
| Totally anecdotal of course but "caffeine in large amounts
| bad" aligns with a lot of human behavior.
| dist-epoch wrote:
| Caffeine physiological addiction is very light. Withdrawal
| symptoms last about 2 days and are mild.
|
| > including just ending up in bad shape
|
| Not sure what you mean by that, I'm not aware of people
| ending up on the streets because of caffeine.
| andygeorge wrote:
| street price of coffee is a little lower than other drugs
| radicaldreamer wrote:
| Coffee is linked with significant health benefits for most
| people, but it isn't the caffeine that responsible.
|
| Coffee has a significant amount of antioxidants and Is the
| most significant source of antioxidants for many people.
| Even decaf coffee has health benefits.
| vik0 wrote:
| I don't get how so many people like coffee. I've tried it
| maybe a handful of times in my life, getting the type that my
| friends said is great, and I've always found it to be
| reminiscent of dirty water, that is, water that has been
| contaminated with dirt.
|
| Why do so many people like it?
|
| My friends say they like the taste, but I don't believe them.
| I think it has to do with them being coerced into liking
| coffee at a young age, and now they're addicted to it because
| of its caffeine content.
|
| I come from a country (Macedonia, ruled over by the Ottomans
| for more than 500 years. The Ottomans liked their coffee)
| where every going out with friends is centered around coffee.
| So when people want to hang out, they never, ever, say stuff
| like "Hey, let's hang out", but always "Let's drink coffee"
| (I understand people in the civilized world, people say stuff
| like this too to hang out with friends, particularly in
| America (I'm not familiar with Western Europe as I haven't
| lived there, though I assume its similar to the US), but not
| like they do here, and the surrounding regions.)
|
| And when you do go out to hang out casually with friends,
| it's always to a fucking cafe because they want to get their
| daily dose of caffeine in, because they're totally not
| addicted to it.
|
| (The overwhelming majority of people here go to cafes every
| day to drink coffee with their friends, who also drink
| coffee. It's become something like a ritual for them at this
| point.)
|
| When I hang out with my friends in a cafe, naturally as their
| sacred ritual insists, and I order anything other than
| coffee, which I always do, other than those 2 times, they
| look at me like I've just committed the mother of all sins.
|
| I apologize for my off-topic rant, but I had to get it off my
| chest.
| pasquinelli wrote:
| i can't taste cardamom. when i taste freshly ground
| cardamom it's like eting a pinch of sand.
|
| maybe you have something like that going on with coffee.
|
| i'll say i had no interest in coffee until i tried it in my
| early 30's and really enjoyed it, though i found the
| caffine too strong. now i drink it every day (smaller cups
| though.) point being, i wasn't made to like coffee at a
| young age, and i've liked it ever since i started drinking
| it.
| laurentlassalle wrote:
| > My friends say they like the taste, but I don't believe
| them. I think it has to do with them being coerced into
| liking coffee at a young age, and now they're addicted to
| it because of its caffeine content.
|
| Daily coffee drinker here. Maybe I'm in the minority but I
| really enjoy the taste (strong espresso without sugar/milk)
| and really dislike the caffeine content (always prefer
| decaf, if available).
| jrmg wrote:
| Also a daily coffee drinker.
|
| I have a theory that humans like _complexity_. I'm pretty
| sure I didn't originally like coffee (or e.g. scotch),
| but I do now because part of my brain really enjoys
| analyzing the flavor.
|
| It's a different enjoyment than e.g. donuts or bananas,
| which just 'taste good'. Coffee (and whisky) 'tastes
| interesting' to a degree that overcomes the initial
| harshness.
|
| So GP is sort of correct for the most basic
| interpretation. They're just not appreciating that
| enjoyment and liking are not always straightforward.
| aappleby wrote:
| Coffee is delicious and worsens my arthritis. I drink a
| coffee substitute called Dandy Blend most days, but damn do
| I miss the real stuff.
| iteygib wrote:
| I use nicotine gum (2mg) to concentrate on reading or programming
| tasks from time to time. I have never smoked. I prefer it over
| caffeine as I do no get the irritable withdrawals. The only
| noticeable side affect I experience is some sleepiness after the
| effect wears off (around 30-40 minutes).
| 21eleven wrote:
| I have the same experience, except I buy 4mg gum tablets and I
| chew 1/4 - 1/3 of a tab at time. 2mg and 4mg tabs are priced
| similarly.
| arcanemachiner wrote:
| I am going to ignore this recommendation, despite my
| temptation. :/
| whoodle wrote:
| I've done this too as someone diagnosed with a lot of daytime
| sleepiness.
|
| Any worry about longterm effects of nicotine? I've tried to
| find good studies online but most center around smoking, not
| the gum or pure nicotine.
| iteygib wrote:
| I have been using it for about 3 years, perhaps at a max of
| twice per week. I started using it for the same reason as
| you, I had issues staying awake. I only drink coffee when
| absolutely needed as I get very irritable withdrawals when
| off it. I gave the gum a try after hearing about the use of
| it from a Hamilton Morris podcast.
|
| I personally have not felt any lingering affects outside of
| some drowsiness after wards. It seems like an easy enough
| habit to drop as well, as I have done so for a few months at
| a time for surgery recoveries. I am in agreement with the
| study linked in this article that nicotine by itself seems
| the same (for me, better) as similar stimulants like
| caffeine. I would never smoke however, as that seems to be
| the real issue.
| plexman wrote:
| I think that the stimulant property is felt less if you are not
| used to nicotine. You would notice a lot more of the
| dizziness/light-headedness.
|
| But on the other side it could be just the fact that when you
| are hooked, you need it just to not feel the withdraw.
|
| As with some drugs this one can be used beneficially if well
| spaced (idk a full week, then 3m without it?). To me any use
| beyond this small period is just not efficient, performance
| wise.
|
| I used to smoke a pack a month, last year i discovered this
| pouches from a Swedish friend (he was talking about the under-
| average incidence of lung cancer there). I got hooked, and it
| was really bad to quit. Yes its not like its crack/heroine and
| ill go steal or stop showering, but i had sever trouble
| sleeping (of course i slept with them many times). The quit
| moment for me was when i started to double dose on the
| strongest ones, also my gums were sore and bled sometimes (if i
| could not buy my preferred brand i would buy minted, felt like
| a junkie going to crack on not finding whatever drug of
| preference)...
| bilsbie wrote:
| I tried it once and got super dizzy. That's a common
| occurance?
| plexman wrote:
| I think so, also nausea in some cases, but it may be
| related to high dosage. People underestimate how strong
| this stuff can be.
| egnehots wrote:
| I'm concerned that many might miss the nuance and subtlety of the
| main issue:
|
| - Nicotine _IS really addictive_ when distributed through common
| uses (smoking, vaping).
|
| Yes, if the absorption is progressive and in small dosages, the
| addiction is less severe, but this is not useful for smokers who
| want to quit and presents a dangerous introduction for others
| petesergeant wrote:
| I used gum to come off vapes, and I still use gum. Over time,
| I've started to notice my tolerance is ... decreasing? I'm now
| cutting a 2mg gum (lowest dose) in 4 with a pill cutter, and
| that's about the right amount
| camgunz wrote:
| 100% correct. This article circulates every so often but it's
| basically just super dangerous. Recommend just looking at NIH
| [0] here.
|
| [0]:
| https://duckduckgo.com/?q=nicotine+site%3Awww.ncbi.nlm.nih.g...
| insanitybit wrote:
| Could you provide something way more specific than a DDG
| search?
| camgunz wrote:
| No the thing I'm doing is burying this armchair gwern
| hogwash with tons of actual research that spans decades.
| insanitybit wrote:
| I have zero interest in cigarettes though. So like, let's say I
| started chewing a gum and then I became addicted to the gum.
| I'm assuming the downside here would be primarily withdrawal
| effects of not chewing the gum? It's not like it's going to be
| a gateway to cigarettes for me. You'll experience caffeine
| withdrawal too, so I'm not sure that's really a problem.
|
| From the article,
|
| > There is little evidence from the NRT literature that 'never-
| smokers' like myself are all that likely to become highly
| addicted,
|
| That is to say, it does not seem to present a dangerous
| introduction for others, assuming you mean an introduction to
| cigarettes.
| OfSanguineFire wrote:
| Indeed, there are loads of occasional-cigar smokers out there
| who have zero interest in smoking cigarettes, and in between
| the times they feel they can afford a quality cigar, simply
| do not smoke at all.
| jtriangle wrote:
| Anecdotally, I've accidentally quit vaping several times,
| because I don't vape when I've caught a cold and that's
| coincided with me needing to buy supplies.
|
| I've gone back to it because I find it enjoyable, but, having
| watched my father quit smoking several times, I can't say
| that I've ever had withdrawals like that, or really at all.
|
| So my theory is, really, that cigarettes and tobacco in
| general is far more addicting and therefore far more
| bioactive than just consuming nicotine is.
| nannal wrote:
| I have quit cigarettes successfully (for ~10 years now) and
| found it wasn't too difficult. However, I have known people
| who could quit indefinitely and pick it back up without
| issue and people who are going through rounds of quitting,
| returning, quitting and so forth.
|
| I personally believe there are additional elements involved
| that could be genetic or psychological.
| pawelwentpawel wrote:
| I used to both smoke and extensively used pure Nicotine
| (gums, sprays etc.)
|
| In my opinion, majority of the people who are stopping
| Nicotine (not just smoking) approach it as an incredibly
| hard challenge. The process is demonised and described as
| something that is really hard to complete. That's exactly
| what I would like people to think if I'd be to work in a
| marketing department for tobacco corporations.
|
| While there is a longer story behind it, I quit cold
| turkey in March this year. This time was much easier - I
| didn't approach it as something that is hard to do. While
| this might sound banal, I focused on what am I getting
| out of it, not what I'm loosing. Everything, from my gums
| to my muscles got better.
|
| Nicotine in its pure form is definitely great brain
| stimulant, I'm still a big fan. I just don't think it's
| worth the cost, both from financial and health
| perspective to use it often.
| jihiggins wrote:
| cigarette smoke also has a bunch of other stuff,
| including MAOIs. it's definitely not _just_ the nicotine.
| iirc, cigarettes also have additives to make the nicotine
| hit harder / cross the blood brain barrier faster, which
| probably doesn't help
| dml2135 wrote:
| I dunno about that. Personally, I smoked cigarettes for
| about 5 years, then quit for about a decade, and then
| picked up vaping a few years ago.
|
| I'm definitely just as addicted to the Juul as I ever was
| to cigarettes, if not more so, and it definitely seems like
| it will be harder to quit. Cigarettes are so gross it's
| almost a benefit, you need to go outside to smoke, the vape
| is just so easy and so much cleaner, I've definitely found
| it much harder to cut down.
| xorbax wrote:
| My friends who took up vaping (esp in pandemic) ended up
| vaping near-constantly
|
| It's not the 80s, so vaping allows one to sit around the
| house and duff it in a way that most people wouldn't do
| with cigarettes.
|
| I feel like nicotine intake can dramatically increase
| with vaping.
| jtriangle wrote:
| Mathwise it's about 6mg of nicotine adsorbed per
| cigarette. That gives you a way to compare dosage of
| nicotine to vaping a certain concentration of juice.
|
| Probably not a great 1:1 because there are other things
| in play with smoking, but, ballparky enough.
|
| If you wanted something closer, you'd need to figure out
| how the other compounds in cigarette smoke affect
| nicotine adsorption and activity.
| saila wrote:
| I was an occasional smoker for over a decade and only got
| addicted to nicotine when I started vaping. It's more
| anecdata, but I don't think vaping is any less addictive
| than smoking cigarettes, and for many people vaping will
| increase their likelihood of addiction just because it's
| easier to vape unnoticed and there's no natural stopping
| point like there is with cigarettes.
|
| I've also temporarily quit nicotine and caffeine when I got
| sick, and I think part of the reason is that the withdrawal
| effects are less noticeable and/or maybe you attribute them
| to the illness. Also, if you get sick enough to take time
| off from work, that tends to coincide with the worst
| withdrawal effects, which last about three days in my
| experience.
| galangalalgol wrote:
| Anecdata follows. As a never smoker I used nicotine gum
| during strength training workouts. I never had any urge to
| use it at other times. I did not find the effect very
| pleasant either, so while I couls see its benefit plotting my
| progress, ultimately I stopped using it. I do have tobacco
| addiction in my family history.
| permo-w wrote:
| everyone's a never-smoker until they're not. the sense I got
| with this article is that the author started with the
| presumption that nicotine from sources other than smoking is
| basically okay and built up from there. that's not to say
| that he's wrong, just that it didn't feel like a rational
| approach
| mock-possum wrote:
| To give an alternate perspective:
|
| smoking cigarettes is just an all around bad experience, it
| smells bad, it tastes bad, it hurts my throat, and for
| what? Light headedness, possibly with the spins? And the
| smell _lingers_ it gets into everything, you basically need
| to change your clothes after you smoke a cigarette.
|
| I'm a non smoker period, and I can only assume this "oh
| everyone says they can't get addicted to cigarettes until
| they start smoking" attitude can only be projection from
| hapless addicts. It just doesn't work that way for me.
|
| I've even tried nicotine gum, just to see if maybe it's the
| smoking itself that's a turnoff - without the smell and the
| taste, maybe nicotine is good on its own? But it's not -
| it's the same head-spinning mild nausea that I recognize
| right away from cigarettes. _who is this drug for_? Because
| it's certainly not me. Addicted to _this_? I literally
| cannot imagine it, why would I seek such a comprehensively
| bad experience compulsively and repeatedly? It just doesn't
| compute for me.
| reactordev wrote:
| The withdrawal effects are more like kicking a heroin
| addiction.
| insanitybit wrote:
| That doesn't sound true.
| reactordev wrote:
| Try it then. As someone who smoked and quit and have had
| friends who smoked and quit who also had heroin habits,
| they corroborate the difficulty. It's a different type of
| struggle but the struggle is strong just the same.
| insanitybit wrote:
| I feel like I shouldn't have to try heroin to understand
| this. A solid paper on the topic would suffice.
| reactordev wrote:
| A simple Google search returns hundreds if not thousands
| of results.
|
| Here's one for you
| https://academic.oup.com/ntr/article/20/9/1038/4096884
| insanitybit wrote:
| That paper does not look like it actually measures
| addiction, and I don't want to sort through hundreds or
| thousands of results...
|
| But I don't really care. It doesn't sound true but it
| also doesn't change anything.
| edgyquant wrote:
| No it wouldn't unless you can consistently reproduce any
| found results among differing populations and I have
| serious doubts such a paper, with said follow ups,
| exists.
| insanitybit wrote:
| OK, then I'm going to go with "doesn't sound true"...
| nickelpro wrote:
| I've quit both cigarettes and a middling amphetamines
| addiction.
|
| Quitting cigarettes was trivial. I decided not to buy a
| pack that day and then never bought another pack. That's
| my anecdotal contribution to the discussion.
|
| Less anecdotally:
|
| Opioid withdrawal, in extreme cases, has killed people
| from persistent vomiting and diarrhea. It has measurable
| physical symptoms with an understood pathophysiology
| largely connected to the cAMP-signaling system.
|
| Nicotine withdrawal is far less understood, to the degree
| it has been classified at all (mostly in studies of
| mice). It certainly has never killed anyone, you're not
| going to shit yourself to death. They're not comparable
| to one another.
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| Purely anecdotal, but I believe Keith Richards is on
| record stating that kicking heroin was far easier than
| kicking nicotine.
|
| There's evidence for this, too -- he quit using heroin
| decades ago, but only managed to quit smoking a few years
| back.
|
| So it seems to be true, at least for him.
| incrudible wrote:
| That is different from withdrawal being worse. Opiate
| withdrawal can be rather severe from a physical
| standpoint. Nicotine withdrawal simply is not.
| thebigspacefuck wrote:
| You're conflating nicotine with tobacco again.
|
| For me, quitting smoking was easier than quitting coffee
| addiction. Coffee is everywhere, cheap, and consumption
| is all but encouraged. If I were to smoke I take on all
| sorts of baggage. Much of smoking is about being a smoker
| which is a mindset and community that is hard to leave.
| Social effects can be much stronger than physical
| dependence.
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| > For me, quitting smoking was easier than quitting
| coffee addiction
|
| Operative phrase here: "for you".
| trmonx wrote:
| Yes, but only because nicotine is cheap, easily
| available, won't cause any real immediate problems or
| drain your bank account.
|
| As a substance its no where near as addicting as heroin,
| no one would actually ruin their lives for nicotine in
| case it was illegal and expensive.
| insanitybit wrote:
| That is not surprising.
|
| a) The downsides to smoking are far longer term and
| harder to feel daily
|
| b) You're surrounded by smokers, you can literally smell
| them smoking just by walking down the street
|
| c) Smoking is legal. You can just go buy a pack.
|
| I am unsurprised that quitting smoking is harder for some
| people, given that. But in terms of withdrawal symptoms,
| that's where I think heroin is probably worse. But I also
| don't really know. So far someone linked a Google search
| and an irrelevant paper.
| meepmorp wrote:
| That's somewhat person dependent. I was a heavy smoker (3-4
| packs a day) for several years, but quitting cold turkey
| was very easy for me. I basically had no cravings unless I
| was drinking, and those went away after a month.
|
| I realize I'm an outlier.
| reactordev wrote:
| I also believe it's the duration of use and not the
| concentration of use that plays more a role here. Being a
| heavy smoker for 4 years isn't the same _mentally_ as
| someone who smoked normally for 20 years. I think past
| the 10 year mark and your brain has suffered damage to
| the point where the addiction becomes life. However, in
| about 10% of cases, smokers who quit were able to because
| the effects of nicotine addiction hadn't taken hold. Much
| like some people feel nothing from taking cocaine.
|
| IANAE though.
|
| Either way. I was a smoker but not a heroin user and
| quitting was the hardest thing for me. It took me almost
| a month to feel normal.
| warent wrote:
| WOW that's amazing how different people's experiences can
| be.
|
| I smoked _one_ pack spread out 2 or 3 days, for about 3
| years (in college). Rarely would do a full pack in a day.
|
| Quitting was pure torture. I stayed up 24 hours walking
| laps around my campus. Took like four full days for
| cravings to go away.
|
| Haven't had a cigarette in 10 yrs. Occasionally enjoy a
| cigar without problems
| retrac wrote:
| I was terribly addicted for a decade, smoking and then
| vaping, and for me, withdrawal was almost intolerable.
| For about three days, it was a terrible experience. I
| felt sick, raged with anger, cried, felt unhinged, and
| even had minor visual disturbances. It can really only
| only be compared to a bad psychedelic trip. But once I
| did manage to get through it, that was it. It hasn't much
| bothered me since. Stopped thinking about smoking about a
| week after. I can't say I crave it really, and I cannot
| relate to the long-term experiences where people say it
| takes months or years to get fully over it. We're all
| different.
| jdietrich wrote:
| I'm not really sure whether I can or should dispute your
| basic point, but I will say that pharmaceutically pure
| nicotine is radically different to tobacco smoke.
|
| People who quit smoking are actually quitting a synergistic
| cocktail of drugs - nicotine and a variety of MAO
| inhibitors found in tobacco smoke. There is good evidence
| to suggest that these MAOI components dramatically increase
| the addictiveness of nicotine.
|
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0161
| 8...
| baby wrote:
| I've heard you can actually quit cigaret cold turkey and be
| fine. Whereas I imagine you could die if you tried that
| with heroin?
| thecodedmessage wrote:
| For the word "dangerous" to be appropriate, it needs to be
| established (1) that nicotine is bad for you or (2) that this
| introduction ever leads to smoking. Or are you just taking all
| the harms of smoking and applying them to nicotine because of
| cultural reasons?
| huytersd wrote:
| Honestly addiction itself is not enough of a downside.
| jrsj wrote:
| Nicotine itself really isn't particularly dangerous. If you
| haven't already been a smoker, you have no mental connection
| between nicotine cravings and cigarettes, so you don't really
| have any reason to desire them. If you were used to something
| like Zyn & tried a cigarette, you probably wouldn't even like
| it that much in my opinion. It may kick in significantly
| quicker, but there's also substantially less nicotine in a
| cigarette vs a nicotine pouch and it would probably leave you
| dissatisfied and annoyed at the bad taste in your mouth.
| vGPU wrote:
| Not particularly. Pure nicotine in and of itself is
| significantly less addictive than the form presented in a
| cigarette. Modern big tobacco has managed to create an
| incredibly nasty and addictive chemical slurry in a stick, with
| acetaldehyde, ammonia, MAOIs, and a bunch of other chemicals
| which significantly increase the addictiveness of nicotine.
|
| Gwern has noted the same in his post:
|
| > Wikipedia summarizes Guillem et al 2005 as "Technically,
| nicotine is not significantly addictive, as nicotine
| administered alone does not produce significant reinforcing
| properties" - the addictiveness coming from MAOIs (eg. Khalil
| et al 2000, Khalil et al 2006) & possibly other compounds
| present in tobacco
| vGPU wrote:
| Gwern has noted the same in his post:
|
| > Wikipedia summarizes Guillem et al 2005 as "Technically,
| nicotine is not significantly addictive, as nicotine
| administered alone does not produce significant reinforcing
| properties" - the addictiveness coming from MAOIs (eg. Khalil
| et al 2000, Khalil et al 2006) & possibly other compounds
| present in tobacco
| ShamelessC wrote:
| Gwern has noted the same in his post:
|
| > Wikipedia summarizes Guillem et al 2005 as "Technically,
| nicotine is not significantly addictive, as nicotine
| administered alone does not produce significant reinforcing
| properties" - the addictiveness coming from MAOIs (eg.
| Khalil et al 2000, Khalil et al 2006) & possibly other
| compounds present in tobacco
| pkoird wrote:
| Nicotine is a stimulant but weirdly enough, it has always
| improved my sleep (even when taken close to sleep). I never
| really understood why.
| dijit wrote:
| After being on IRC for the best part of two decades (and the
| fringe groups who frequent the medium) I have seen the word
| "nootropics" banded about.
|
| The first time, I thought it was a fun idea but nothing I wanted,
| see; my brain is all I have so I dont much fancy experimenting
| with it- this is also why I avoided alcohol and coffee despite
| social pressures.
|
| The community that formed went away as quickly as it had been
| created; various people began having psychological issues.
|
| The next time I heard about nootropics I passed along the
| information. "This time, will be different" the anonymous
| internet handle claimed.
|
| "We know more, we will not do anything dangerous".
|
| Alas, the same fate befell them, and the community that formed
| quickly dissapated as they became incoherent even amongst each
| other. Prone to fits of paranoia and delusions of a grandiose
| conspiracy - which they were the only people who could see the
| truth.
|
| Later, on of my fellow IRC opers followed this path, I gave
| strict warning that it was hubris to believe himself smarter at
| drug use for brain optimisation than the scores of admittedly
| intelligent people who came before. He (much) later would become
| unhinged and fly cross continent to find me at my irl work
| location where he threatened my mother.
|
| He was incoherent most of the time and dropped out of university.
|
| So, forgive the hesitance, but I am even more hardened on the
| notion that we should probably not mess with our brains too much.
| I know some people must be pioneers to understand what works but
| I always took "YOLO" as a warning and not as a reason to throw
| caution to the wind.
|
| That said, I am a heavy user of caffeine in adulthood and I am
| more susceptible to pressure on drinking alcohol now. So I will
| admit to being hypocritical when it comes to the socially
| acceptable brain altering drugs.
|
| NB: Nicotine itself is addictive mostly because it has such a
| long half life, it stays in the body for multiple weeks; so if
| you decide to take this advice, make sure you wait at least a
| fortnight between doses.
| insanitybit wrote:
| That's definitely an anecdote, but I think the salient point is
| this:
|
| > So, forgive the hesitance, but I am even more hardened on the
| notion that we should probably not mess with our brains too
| much
|
| And that's true, insofar as we are able to agree on what "mess
| with our brains" and "too much" means.
|
| Is taking some choline "messing" with the brain? Definitely. Is
| it "too much?" well, perhaps you think so. Is drinking coffee
| "too much"? Apparently we both agree that it is not "too much",
| I'm drinking some caffeine right now.
|
| One thing about Choline and Caffeine is that they are very well
| studied, especially in terms of safety. The further you go into
| the nootropics world the less studied options you'll find -
| things range from "zero data" to "used for 1000s of years by an
| unscientific people" to "animal studies exist" and beyond.
|
| My personal "too much" is when there's a combination of weak
| evidence to support benefits and weak evidence to support
| safety in humans.
| dijit wrote:
| Well said.
|
| I think that is definitely a strong and salient way to think
| about mind altering chemicals.
| pitched wrote:
| The best place to start is the Beginner's Guide put together by
| the Nootropics subreddit:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/wiki/beginners/
|
| TLDR: Your starting point is exercise, sleep and sunlight.
| Nothing after that really has as large of an effect.
| insanitybit wrote:
| > Nothing after that really has as large of an effect.
|
| Most people would disagree - at least, anyone who drinks
| caffeine would.
| justsomehnguy wrote:
| Most people can't understand why they aren't feeling well
| after 1kg of pasta with meatballs.
|
| I love caffeine and _coffee_ , but if we are talking about
| well-feeling, 5 minute calistenics would make you feel
| better in 99% compared to a cup of sugar laden cappuccino
| insanitybit wrote:
| None of that is relevant. Caffeine has a blatant
| cognitive effect.
| adrianN wrote:
| So do sleep exercise and sunlight
| insanitybit wrote:
| I _explicitly_ quoted "> Nothing after that really has
| as large of an effect."
| VHRanger wrote:
| It might be about the nootropics, but this might also be the
| conditiona that people who are in IRC chatrooms about
| braindrugs are more prone to psychotic breaks for whatever
| reason.
|
| Stimulants increase likelihood of psychosis, but that's
| conditional on dosage and precursor risk variables
| caddemon wrote:
| Nicotine specifically is also more likely to be used by
| people with psychotic disorders than the general population,
| as a form of self-medicating. Many Schizophrenic people
| report smoking cigarettes to help their symptoms in the short
| term, though I'm not sure what research says about long term
| mental health effects of this practice.
| financltravsty wrote:
| I would say that's a sampling bias, considering the type of
| people that frequent IRC. Numerous more students everywhere buy
| some piracetam or related due to a TikTok video, and never
| suffer any consequence.
|
| I would also mention that nicotine itself has a marginally
| lower addictive rating if we go by DFosB expression. Having
| been someone that got hooked on cigarettes (and quit), the same
| habits never formed for nicotine, and the inclination was never
| there. And it is trivial to quit nicotine (compared to
| caffeine, even more so for cigarettes).
|
| Though, I do agree in essence with your post. It is hubris to
| play around with this sort of thing. And there is never a free
| lunch (unless we're speaking strictly of micronutrients and
| pseudomicronutrients/vitamins).
| deegles wrote:
| The best nootropic is really high quality, regular sleep,
| regular exercise, and good diet. If you don't have the basics
| down, no supplement will make up for it.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Agreed, and many of the supplements and drugs people are
| taking actually mess with sleep in a big way; so seems
| entirely counterproductive.
| bitzun wrote:
| And once you have all that (assuming exercise is cardio),
| weight lifting has great mental health effects IME
| bezier-curve wrote:
| > Nicotine itself is addictive mostly because it has such a
| long half life, it stays in the body for multiple weeks.
|
| It has a half-life of 2 hours [0]. If it lasted longer I think
| its withdrawal effect would be less steep and more gradual.
|
| [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7794006/
| FredPret wrote:
| I've seen a similar story.
|
| Problems that could be solved by exercise, sunlight, sleep, and
| a positive mental attitude, but then they try nootropics
| instead.
|
| It always ends the same way - psychosis, incoherence, paranoia.
|
| The brain is a finely tuned network, use it's built-in hapiness
| generators rather than throwing sledgehammers at it.
| yojo wrote:
| I think it is useful to draw a distinction between "new"
| nootropics and those with hundreds of years of demonstrated
| use.
|
| While nicotine has not historically been used in isolation, it
| has been used both in recreation and religion settings for
| around 2000 years. Caffeine use is similar, perhaps older.
|
| There's still reason to be wary of higher dosages or new
| delivery routes, but it seems unlikely that dabbling in low-
| dose caffeine or nicotine use will make you go crazy, based on
| the mountain of historical evidence to the contrary.
| binary132 wrote:
| I know how these communities can be and it honestly sounds much
| more like a community problem than like a "people who drink
| some coffee and smoke some cigarettes" problem, because there
| are many millions of those who don't have crazy, out-of-control
| behavioral problems.
| johnwheeler wrote:
| Modafinil is a Dave Asprey bullshit lie. It does not promote
| nootropic benefits or flow work or anything like that. Pretty
| much anything Dave Asprey says is bullshit.
| geraldwhen wrote:
| It is, however, extremely useful to treat narcolepsy.
| jtriangle wrote:
| I've anecdotally found modafinil to be great for focus if I
| didn't sleep the night before, makes the day less miserable.
| Never tried it casually.
| idontwantthis wrote:
| I wrote some terrible code on modafanil but I did write it for
| 6 hours straight.
| Exoristos wrote:
| That's called a work day.
| coldblues wrote:
| I have ADHD; getting Concerta here is near impossible, so I've
| been using Modafinil. It's been extremely effective.
| geraldwhen wrote:
| That's incredible. Unlike adhd meds, modafinil is neither
| addictive nor neuro toxic.
| adamsb6 wrote:
| Relevant auto tune the news: https://youtu.be/1dqTrUpmwPg
| dist-epoch wrote:
| In sports there are two "legal" performance enhancing doping
| substances: caffeine and nicotine
| mpreda wrote:
| I'm a non smoker, I never smoked. Once I decided to try a
| nicotine chewing gum, took one pillow and chewed it thoroughly.
| After about 5-10minutes I suffered some very very severe effects,
| including: I started sweating extremelly such that all my clothes
| become wet quickly and sweat was dripping down my nose, ears, and
| into my eyes. I felt an intense and urgent need to urinate and
| defecate, which luckily I could do on the spot (happened to be in
| the proximity of a public toilet). I think after about 30minutes
| the simptoms subsided. I subjectivelly imagined that I ran the
| risk of a heart attack there.
|
| So, I'd like to warn any non-smoker that may want to try out
| nicotine: please start with a very small dose, and only gradually
| build up; because otherwise it can be dangerous.
| thebigspacefuck wrote:
| You're supposed to chew it only until it tastes peppery then
| park it in your gum/cheek
| sieste wrote:
| Thanks for the PSA. One would think a 10,000 word article on
| the benefits of non-smoking nicotine use, with a dedicated
| section on health issues, might mention this important
| detail...
| thebigspacefuck wrote:
| Instructions are usually on the box, but you're right, no
| mention of nicotine overdose which is quite unpleasant and
| easily negates any productivity benefits if experienced.
| reactordev wrote:
| Welcome to nicotine poisoning. You are only supposed to chew
| until you get flavor, then suck on it like you would spitting
| tobacco except not spitting. When you get a craving, you chew a
| few more times. The symptoms you describe are classic nicotine
| poisoning symptoms. Sweats, expulsions of fluids, rapid heart
| rate, disorientation.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| It also describes what I felt like the first time I ever
| tried a cigarette.
| reactordev wrote:
| The disorientation is why most kids vape. Then they are
| addicted.
| ThrowawayTestr wrote:
| The kids call that a head rush.
| mpreda wrote:
| And the funny follow-up: after this one-time rather completly
| unpleasant experience, I developed an intense smell sensibility
| to nicotine that lasted about one month: I could feel/smell the
| presence of small amounts of nicotine and have a very somatic
| "sick" reaction to it. I guess my body learned quickly to alert
| me of the "poison". Luckily, this reaction dissapeared and
| everything reverted to normal after about one month.
| mp05 wrote:
| Nicotine poisoning is one of the worst feelings imaginable. The
| headache is stuff of legends and, interestingly, the same
| headache I had with Covid and for weeks after. I get a bit sick
| even thinking about it.
| extr wrote:
| FYI, nicotine poisoning is uncomfortable but if it happens to
| you, you can greatly reduce the effect by eating something
| sweet, the effects seem to be blood sugar dependent. Try a
| spoonful of honey or a can of coke, you will feel better almost
| instantly.
|
| This tip brought to you by cigar smokers.
| walleeee wrote:
| FWIW, you're not supposed to chew it thoroughly, even if you're
| a smoker. You're supposed to gently bite once to break it open,
| then tuck it in your cheek or under your lip for a while, and
| repeat as necessary. Chewing like normal gum releases it all at
| once which is _not_ advisable.
| caesil wrote:
| Or just never build up and always use small doses. No real
| addiction, and you still get great effects similar to caffeine
| or amphetamine as long as you don't use it often enough to
| build up a tolerance (which isn't too hard).
| reactordev wrote:
| >"...and is addictive to some degree"
|
| I stopped reading after this part. I'm sorry, but passing off
| decades of research as "to some degree" when it's been found to
| be as addictive as heroin. [0]
|
| So it's completely asinine to say "to some degree". By all means,
| go chew some nicotine gum, you'll be wanting more in an hour.
| Next thing you know you're eating a pack a day, for 30 years,
| until your arteries hardened and you block your heart. All for a
| pick me up in the evening. Take a nap.
|
| [0] https://www.ucsfhealth.org/conditions/nicotine-dependence
| thebigspacefuck wrote:
| You really should have kept reading because this is addressed
| reactordev wrote:
| And dismissed over and over again. The author is playing with
| cyanide and doesn't even understand that.
| thw09j9m wrote:
| Tobacco is addictive, nicotine alone without MAOIs is not
| nearly as addictive.
| sfeng wrote:
| It would probably be useful to actually read before you
| comment. He meticulously cites the sources of his claims with
| actual studies.
| reactordev wrote:
| >"...My take away is that there is addiction but it's
| drastically overestimated"
|
| It goes on and on. The author is ignorant.
| jdorfman wrote:
| I was always fascinated by cigarettes and stole one when I was 10
| and that was where my journey of addition to nicotine began. I
| now vape everyday and chew 2mg of gum if I'm on a plane or some
| other situation.
|
| I've tried to quit multiple times but I'm weak. I can go a few
| months but always get pulled back.
|
| IMO there are no benefits. If you never had nicotine and this
| link made you curious don't. You will most likely become a life
| long user to one of the most addictive chemicals known to man.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| It really seems to vary by person, perhaps genetic.
|
| In university I used to bum cigarettes off people all the time
| and have one here and there, esp back when you could smoke at
| the club, at a rave, etc. before bylaws. I'd even buy a pack of
| cigarettes here and there, and then just...forget about them
| and never finish them. Sometimes I'd have a bit of a craving
| for two or three days after and just power through it, and that
| was that.
|
| In the summer I'll smoke some pipe tobacco, and every few years
| smoke a cigar. Don't really crave after.
|
| Before my older sister was born my father was a heavy smoker.
| When my mom got pregnant, he just quit, and that was that,
| never ever showed any interest in smoking again.
|
| But then I've seen the very brutal suffering that I saw friends
| go through trying to quite their smoking habit. Just awful.
|
| All said, I don't think nicotine is a wise thing to mess with.
| Vaping especially to me seems like a slippery slope because it
| kind of gives the vibe of a kind of "consequence-less"
| interaction with the drug. If you smoke a pipe or cigar, you
| stink, you might get a headache, and it actually costs quite a
| bit of $$. Vaping is set up to seem like this casual
| entertainment with few consequences. I'm glad my teens have so
| far ridiculed it and shown no interest.
| jdorfman wrote:
| You are absolutely correct. Most of my friends were able to
| quit while some are in the same situation as me. All I'm
| saying is don't take the risk.
| thebigspacefuck wrote:
| Why do you get pulled back if there are no benefits?
| jdorfman wrote:
| As I said I'm weak.
|
| Edit: the only benefit I get now is not thinking about
| nicotine until my cravings kick in again. While loop from
| hell.
| nilespotter wrote:
| Addiction isn't a question of will. You're not weak for not
| being able to walk away, and you wouldn't be strong if you
| were able to.
| andygeorge wrote:
| addiction is wild
| dan_man wrote:
| Quoting one of the reply [0] from the linked thread in the OP:
|
| _Nicotine is considered one of the most (if not THE most)
| physically and psychologically addictive substances in the entire
| world. Prior to introducing nicotine into your body, there is no
| compulsion for your body want /need it. However, as SOON as you
| introduce it for the first time, it gives birth to a "little
| monster" of need within you. This monster will remain within you
| until the day you die. Sure, eventually you can starve this
| "little monster" down into a tiny little husk, so that it no
| longer has any effect on you, but there's always going to be that
| slight twinge... That slight trickle in the back of your mind
| that something's missing. I feel that once you go down the road
| of nicotine you'll forever regret it._
|
| However, if you have been a smoker I guess it's alright to try
| but,
|
| Another interesting thing I found in the same thread is the
| Moderator's note [1]:
|
| _The study below demonstrates that nicotine, regardless of
| administration method causes Smoker 's Melanosis, and it is
| likely that by extension, whether specifically demonstrated or
| not, this action will accelerate the visible signs of skin aging
| by a similar uneven discoloration and an increase in the number
| of moles which smokers and their families get.
|
| The long-term effect of nicotine on the oral mucosa [2]._
|
| So, it's still not safe completely. I have been a smoker and I
| quit long ago but after reading the article I'd still stick with
| the good ol' coffee!
|
| 0: https://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/23915-nicotine-
| patch-f...
|
| 1: https://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/23915-nicotine-
| patch-f...
|
| 2: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10605870
| binary132 wrote:
| I used to smoke cigarettes fairly frequently (about 1-2 a day
| perhaps 10-15 years ago) and have never experienced this. Every
| now and then, perhaps every few months, I think it might be
| pleasant to get into pipe tobacco, try snuff or snus, or enjoy
| a cigar. I can categorically say that I experience nothing I
| would remotely categorize as regret or craving whatsoever.
| Clubber wrote:
| Did you inhale? Once I learned how to inhale I got hooked
| pretty quick. I do know people who can put them down whenever
| they want, but I wasn't one of them.
|
| The one good thing I got out of it was knowing what addiction
| felt like. I'm sure it kept me from getting addicted to more
| dangerous things when I was younger.
| bartwr wrote:
| I used to be a daily smoker for over 2y and a casual/social
| smoker for close to a decade. Since moving to US, for the last
| decade, I don't smoke as "nobody" smokes here (compared to
| Europe). I smoke now 1-2 cigarettes a year, mostly when visiting
| Europe and with smoker friends. (I never got addicted and never
| had any problem quiting cold turkey; I smoked because it was
| great social relationship builder - some of my best friends are
| people met on cigarette breaks).
|
| Sometimes I use nicotine gums / patches as a dieting aid
| (effective appetite suppressant).
|
| And I want to warn against this premise of short half life. This
| is not true in general. There are active metabolites like
| cotinine with elimination half life of 20h+, depending on your
| liver enzymes, gender, ethnicity.
|
| If I chew a nicotine gum around noon, I have trouble sleeping the
| whole following night with my brain unable to calm down, mild jaw
| clenching etc.
|
| So yes, moldafinil is a terrible stimulant due to too long half
| life, but so is nicotine (for many). I definitely don't recommend
| for that purpose. Maybe for extreme (crash) dieting, but this is
| unhealthy in general.
| imsurgio wrote:
| I am a smoker. I wouldn't advise this. Before you get any
| stimulant effects. Which are minimal. You get very sick at first.
| By the time you have enough tolerance you are addicted
| physically. Some can quit easy but it can be a slippery slope.
| It's too risky as you don't know how hard it is to quit for you
| in advance.
|
| I've tried off and on to quit for 20 years at least. Don't do it,
| it's a lot of work to get past the sickness. If I weren't young
| and ignorant, I'd have never started.
| Clubber wrote:
| I started smoking at 12 and got completely hooked in a week. I
| also tried several times to quit. I quit for 3 months _TWICE_
| and started back up. I finally got off cigarettes with Juul. I
| also don 't recommend nicotine. You'll likely be a customer for
| life.
| antiframe wrote:
| I once read a book called 'The Easy Way to Stop Smoking' and,
| as advertised, after finishing it I haven't had a cigarette
| or craving since. It was literally like magic and it's worked
| for two of my friends as well.
| joshjob42 wrote:
| I occasionally use a 2mg piece of nicotine gum as a pick me up
| if I've already had too much caffeine or if it's late at night
| (or if I'm at a conference where I'm getting little sleep), and
| I certainly feel the stimulant effect and nothing else. Never
| had any sort of tolerance, never felt any draw to take it
| except in the sense of "Boy I'm really dragging, I need a
| stimulant. Should I get coffee or a piece of gum?".
|
| Most weeks I use none, some conferences I've used 2 pieces a
| day every day for 4-5 days straight. No problems stopping
| afterward.
| brbrodude wrote:
| Fellow nic addict of 18 years here. If you haven't yet I'd
| recommend trying out Tabex. I'm still addicted but was able to
| cut it off by like 85% this year with its aid.
| Joel_Mckay wrote:
| The nicotine chemical is a natural pesticide manufactured by
| several species of tobacco plants, and in trace amounts within
| some peppers.
|
| It is approximately 35 times more addictive than Heroin, and has
| an LD50 so lethal the contents of a few packs/mg of smokes would
| kill most adult users if they took it all at once.
|
| Due to the intended role in nature, humans also use the compound
| for its mutagenic properties, and increased lethality in
| insecticides.
|
| People are foolish, and addicts are experts at rationalizing
| self-destructive coping methods. Smoking/Vaping is primarily
| considered a disgusting habit in many western culture now, but is
| still plaguing the poor of many countries.
|
| Get angry, quit cold turkey, and stay angry for 3 months... Then
| tell others to switch to rage-o-hol if they don't want skin like
| a dried out pear later in life.
|
| I am sure people that generate 94% well structured LLM
| nonsense... also assume the side effects on their sites
| reputations will be negligible. The content makes it sound like a
| psychopath wrote it by the way. lol
|
| Keep well our there, =)
| donatj wrote:
| I agree very much with the addiction aspect being genetic. My
| mother has tried to quit cigarettes umpteen times and never been
| successful. Smokes multiple packs a day.
|
| My dad has smoked here and there my whole life but mostly in the
| summer. He'll go all 6 months of winter (Minnesota) without
| smoking not wanting to be in the cold and not wanting to smoke in
| the house.
|
| He never "needs" a smoke, unlike my mother. It's always "oh a
| smoke would be nice on this beautiful night".
|
| I like to smoke a tobacco pipe and do so about 6-10 times a year.
| I think I got my dad's side of it
| stevehawk wrote:
| author shrugged this off pretty easily but nicotine is a
| vasoconstrictor which is an issue when combined with it being
| addictive. that's a problem if you ever have certain types
| surgery due to wound healing and lack of blood flow. There's more
| than a few people that effed their plastic surgery results
| because they immediately went back to nicotine. (note: not all
| plastics are necessarily volunteer, such as after certain
| cancer/tumor/melanoma removals).
| potatopatch wrote:
| Alcohol and caffeine are also vasoconstrictors in high usage
| one would associate with addiction (they seem to have a lot of
| paradoxical effects depending on dosage/habit).
|
| If the theory that nicotine alone is not as addictive as
| smoking is correct I'm not sure the concern makes more sense
| than concern over other common addictions.
| octatrack wrote:
| I used to be a smoker, for a good decade. Then, switched to
| vaping for 3-4 years, which allowed me to taper down my nicotine
| use and quit completely.
|
| This was about 5 years ago.
|
| Recently, I've started using nicotine gum to increase focus while
| working. I usually use 1 mg, maximum 4 times a day. I typically
| begin taking it in the afternoon, my morning work sessions are
| usually nicotine-free. I have been using it on most days for
| about 3 months.
|
| I have zero desire to smoke or vape. On days when I am not taking
| it, I don't have a strong craving for the gum.
|
| I've also quit caffeine a few days ago, with the intention to not
| use it for at least 3 months. I find that even low amounts of tea
| increases my anxiety to the point that it becomes difficult to
| focus. I've been very productive since I stopped caffeine. Mild
| withdrawal effects in the form of physical tiredness, but I am
| fine with the tradeoff for less anxiety.
|
| I might have developed some level of physical dependency to
| nicotine, I'll see it once I'll do an extended break. For now,
| it's the only dopamine-increasing substance I consume, and I'm
| fine with it.
| huytersd wrote:
| You have zero desire to smoke or vape now but the usual way is
| you end up having a strong craving for your preferred mode of
| delivery (gum in your case) when it's not available and then
| attempt another one to tide you through till your order gets
| here. Now you have two modes of delivery.
| octatrack wrote:
| I am committed to not smoking or vaping, no matter what.
|
| So far, I haven't experienced any strong cravings for the gum
| when not taking it for a day or two. When I decide to stop in
| about a couple months, I will power through with discipline.
| huytersd wrote:
| Easy to say. I have excellent discipline in most areas of
| my life but nicotine is a hard one. Doesn't help that I
| don't want to quit either because the actual health risks
| seem minimal (I vape, flavorless, lab grade)
| pasquinelli wrote:
| i wonder why the author needs stimulants so much.
| ThrowAway1922A wrote:
| Why not? Stimulants are the best thing known to man. There's a
| reason people enjoy them so much.
| GaryNumanVevo wrote:
| Stimulant abuse is pretty accepted in the US. Unless it's meth,
| which has a negative class connotation.
| m3047 wrote:
| Nicotine improves rote memorization and learning on repetitive
| tasks. Nicotine will teach you to be a really really good smoker
| unless you overlay some other ritual and modulate your ingestion
| mechanics.
| zingababba wrote:
| Snus is one of life's greatest pleasures.
| ThrowAway1922A wrote:
| It is without a doubt. It's baffling to me that people smoke
| when things like snus exist. Far, far safer than smoking, much
| cleaner, and it doesn't impact those around you.
|
| Nicotine is a great drug that the world largely insists of
| using an awful delivery method for.
| thebigspacefuck wrote:
| I started smoking in high school and got turned onto dip by
| someone I ran cross country with that was on the wrestling team
| (very common for them to use for weight loss). The dip was really
| intense and I got a huge buzz from it, but after taking some
| magic mushrooms around my age 16 I tried to quit it all at once
| and really thought I was going insane. It was an incredibly
| potent nootropic though and was easy to hide for taking tests. I
| felt incredible taking the ACT. I switched back to smoking most
| of the time because most people think dip is disgusting, but
| eventually I tired of going outside in the cold and having to the
| fund the addiction, so I quit. It really wasn't all that hard in
| the grand scheme of things, but took a couple of tries. It's not
| something you want to undertake without planning or research and
| you are going to gain some weight and be out of it for a couple
| weeks. Years later I'd miss it and get back into the occasional
| cig or e-cigs or nicotine lozenges. Any time I did though they
| eventually just make me kind of lazy to where I just want to lay
| around and I realized I was better off going for walks or
| exercising. I don't think it's so bad to quit but it can mess up
| your stomach and you might lose a night of sleep so it's not the
| funnest thing in the world. The last time I did this it was at
| night, I had an interview the next morning, and my stomach hurt
| from constipation so I gave up and put in a lozenge for a minute
| which unstopped me, but then couldn't sleep due to the
| stimulation, had a horrible interview the next day and then went
| through with quitting.
|
| If you can find the right dose/form then it really does have a
| boost to your brain, but my experience with this sort of thing is
| sort of like putting NOS in your fuel, it doesn't matter if you
| can accelerate fast most of the time, because most of life is
| about driving safely and consistently at a steady speed and
| sometimes you can get ahead by speeding up and going through a
| yellow light to avoid a red, which the NOS can help with but
| usually burning NOS all the time is just an unnecessary expense.
| And you don't want to have something like nicotine withdrawals
| slowing you down when you're hitting a yellow like my interview
| which was a disaster. Having quit amphetamines, coffee, and
| nicotine multiple times, it's not that bad, but it's still a
| hassle and there's never a good time and you're better off
| eliminating as many hassles as you can from your life imo.
|
| I definitely think the more addictive than heroin line is likely
| not accurate for nicotine itself but I've never been addicted to
| heroin so idk. I actually still think about starting it up again
| sometimes even though it's been 15 years since I quit, maybe 3
| since my last lozenge, but overall this experiment for me is
| concluded and nicotine is something I'm better off living
| without.
| GaryNumanVevo wrote:
| Reminds me of the guy in my high school class that got addicted
| to nicotine patches and had to be hospitalized after he poisoned
| himself accidentally...
| aappleby wrote:
| Anecdata of one here-
|
| Non-smoker, originally tried nicotine vapes as an alternative to
| caffeine which I tend to overuse.
|
| Not very effective for me as I seem to have a paradoxical
| reaction to it that makes me want to take a nap for 5-10 minutes
| after inhaling, but I found the sensation was pleasurable when
| combined with cannabis edibles so I kept the vape around.
|
| Absolutely zero physical addiction. I can and have stopped using
| the vape cold turkey for weeks or months at a time and I felt no
| withdrawal at all. At the present moment I haven't used it in
| months.
| waveBidder wrote:
| apparently stimulants behaving like depressants is something
| that may be associated with ADHD, so you may want to visit a
| psychiatrist.
| hirvi74 wrote:
| I believe that is more dose dependent than ADHD dependent. I
| would imagine if you gave someone with ADHD enough
| stimulants, then that reaction would reverse.
|
| People commonly believe that stimulants affect people with
| ADHD differently than non-ADHD people, but I have never seen
| any research to back that up. It's merely just anecdotes, and
| I honestly think stimulants, like anything, just affect
| people differently regardless of ADHD or not.
|
| If anyone has data either way, I would love to see it.
| credit_guy wrote:
| I tried nicotine patches (lifelong non-smoker). I didn't see any
| benefit. I was hoping I can focus more on some boring stuff I
| needed to get done against a deadline. I just didn't see
| anything.
|
| I then disclosed that I used nicotine products when I applied for
| some life insurance. They wanted to put me in the smoker
| category, I had to spend time with them to explain I never smoked
| in my life, and the nicotine patches were not for smoking
| cessation, but just to improve focus.
| standardUser wrote:
| The addictive properties of nicotine aren't magic. It requires
| sustained, repeated consumption, like any physically addicting
| substances. And research has shown that different people have
| different propensities for addiction (same with cocaine and
| alcohol).
|
| But if you do become addicted to nicotine, and are one of the
| people with a high propensity for nicotine addiction, you're
| fucked. It's one of the most challenging addictions to quit, as
| we all know. Is this a risk you want to take for some mild
| stimulation? As a former smoker, I can only believe that anyone
| who takes this risk does not fully appreciate the consequences.
| The exception might be people who have consumed nicotine on and
| off but have never had addictive tendencies. Those people
| definitely exist, but it still seems like a risky thing to assume
| about yourself since being wrong could be life altering.
|
| I also take exception to the articles emphasis that moving on to
| cigarettes is the only real risk. Yes, that's where the majority
| of the health problems come from. But don't underestimate the
| negative consequences of a physical addiction, even one that does
| not lead to health problems. It is not fun to be addicted to
| anything that contorts your body and mind outside of your
| control.
| throwbadubadu wrote:
| As a former smoker I think you didn't fully read the article
| und understood author's and other's thesis that it is actually
| not the nicotine that makes for the strong cigarette addiction.
| standardUser wrote:
| There is no such thing as a cigarette addiction. Nicotine is
| the addictive chemical in cigarettes. Yes, method of
| consumption matters, but if you regularly consume an
| addictive chemical you are at risk to develop an addiction to
| that chemical, regardless of method (though not necessarily
| regardless of quantity).
| nrclark wrote:
| You might be overlooking a chemical conditioning element. A
| smoker gets a dopamine hit every time they take a pull from
| their cigarette. The smell, the sizzle, and the routine -
| all become associated with a reward pathway.
|
| Nicotine is the chemical that causes this, but the
| addiction is far more than just nicotine alone.
| darkerside wrote:
| Exactly. What is the chemical element in a smartphone
| addiction? Or a pornography addiction?
|
| What a shortsighted and close minded comment (talking
| about parent).
| standardUser wrote:
| As I just said in another comment, the fact that people
| can maintain their nicotine addiction with vapes or
| patches or gum shows that the primary addictive substance
| is nicotine and it can be effectively addictive all by
| itself.
| dieselgate wrote:
| Do you have personal experience with a nicotine or
| tobacco addiction? Many of us may agree that nicotine is
| the _primary_ addictive substance but there are other
| considerations. It's not one size fit all and everyone is
| an individual.
| throwbadubadu wrote:
| Not really right.. but again you also either didn't read
| the article, didn't get the point, or strongly object it?
| (And also ignore authentic experiences other people give
| here)? Beyond nicotine, which is addictive yes, there is
| more in the cigarette cocktail (especially in nowadays
| highly optimized industrialized ones) that is also
| addictive. So there is such a thing as a cigarette
| addiction.
|
| Or in other words: Why do people only get little addicted
| and can easily stop chewing nicotin gums, while for only a
| small percentage of smokers it is possible to quit via the
| nicotin gum replacement?
|
| Or in even other words: Both coffeine and heroine are
| addictive, but we can agree that there are differences?
| standardUser wrote:
| Third time I'm writing the same comment - nicotine
| addiction can be formed and sustained without tobacco.
| This is obvious.
| bilsbie wrote:
| You seem pretty confident about this despite there being
| thousands of chemicals in cigarettes and presumably the
| companies being very interested in hooking their users.
| standardUser wrote:
| Lots of people manage nicotine addiction with the patch
| or gum or vapes. None of those contain the chemicals in
| tobacco, but all of them sustain the addiction.
| dageshi wrote:
| So I have some personal experience with nicotine in different
| formats. Cigars (not inhaled) and zyn packets you slip under
| your lip.
|
| My experience is that nicotine is highly addictive based on
| dosage and delivery.
|
| Cigars were in no way addictive, I suspect because the
| delivery of the nicotine takes quite a while.
|
| The zyn though, I quickly ramped up from low dosages (1-3mg)
| to the higest dosages (10mg+). And at my worst I'd go through
| a 20 pack of those per day.
|
| I tried quitting cold turkey multiple times from the zyn,
| failed each time. Tried slowly decreasing strength till I
| reached 3mg and then quit, that worked fine and was actually
| relatively easy.
|
| I still smoke cigars, they just don't trigger the same
| reactions that the zyn did.
| dieselgate wrote:
| Strongly agree with the slow decrease method. One of the
| nice things about nicotine pouches/gum is they come pre-
| dosed so it's pretty simple in how to ramp down. Doing it
| is the tough part.
|
| For more fine grained decreases I've used the 3mg, then
| 2mg, then split up pieces of nicotine gum (2 or 4 mg) to
| get down to like 1 and .5 mg doses.
| friend_and_foe wrote:
| I used to smoke cigarettes for many years. Over a decade. In
| the last few years of smoking, I tried to quit numerous times,
| trying to replace it with vaping because nicotine is what I'm
| addicted to, right? So I shouldn't have that hard a time, it's
| about breaking the physical habit not the drug addiction since
| I'm not quitting that. Often I would go a few months. The last
| failed attempt, withdrawals gave me panic attacks well into 3
| months in. So I gave up, got some cigarettes, a year later I
| tried again and succeeded, I'm a few years smoke free.
|
| I'm still addicted to nicotine, I vape. But I wake up, where my
| vape is is not the first thing I think about. I dont plan my
| day by how much nicotine I have left. When I get under the
| weather I can give it up for a few days with no problem. This
| is _not_ the same addiction I had when smoking cigarettes, this
| is a milder, more casual thing, I don 't get cravings, I get
| these small little desires for a puff. Whatever is going on
| with cigarettes, nicotine is only a small part of that.
| Quitting cigarettes is one of the hardest things I've ever
| done, I could not vape for the rest of the day and only feel a
| mild annoyance. In my experience the article is correct,
| there's something more going on with cigarettes than just
| nicotine.
| api wrote:
| The obvious question is whether there are other addictive
| compounds in cigarettes. I've heard stories like yours
| before.
| friend_and_foe wrote:
| They say there are MAOIs in tobacco that increase nicotine
| uptake, but I'm not entirely convinced that that's the sole
| culprit either. I could chew some tobacco right now, or
| smoke a pipe or cigar, I could even inhale it, and I
| wouldn't have a problem. If I were to smoke a single
| cigarette I'd be smoking a pack a day within a week and who
| knows how many months or years it would take me to rectify
| that. Whatever it is I suspect it's done deliberately in
| processing.
| kallistisoft wrote:
| Tobacco contains Harmaline which is an MAOI - it both
| increases the bioavailability of nicotine as well as
| adding an additional psychoactive effect; stimulant +
| anti-depressant
|
| I've recently started adding free base harmaline to my
| vape juice to create a proper tobacco substitute... I
| found that nicotine alone didn't provide the relaxation
| that I would get from smoking tobacco. After a fair
| amount of research I discovered that it was that lack of
| harmala compounds.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmala_alkaloid
| anbende wrote:
| Research anecdote here. I'm a psychologist in a different area
| and a friend who did his PhD in cocaine research with rats told
| me this.
|
| Addiction is highly dependent on the immediacy of the drug's
| effect on the brain. For this reason, people who smoke cocaine
| (directly or as crack) are highly likely to get addicted. It
| may be the majority. People who snort it are less likely to get
| addicted. And there are a lot of casual cocaine users
| (snorting) who do not develop a long term life altering
| addiction. I believe he (researcher friend) said it was 10-15%
| who go on to become addicted. Still substantial and dangerous
| but much less than smoking.
|
| His research was looking at delayed onset of cocaine in rats
| after they pushed their cocaine lever. At longer delays more
| and more rats showed little interest.
|
| This is part of the overall addiction picture. Decoupling drug
| use behaviors (smoking, snorting, and lever pressing) from
| noticeable drug onset prevents reinforcement of the behavior
| and makes addiction less likely, often much less.
|
| This would explain why nicotine patches and gum would
| potentially be much less addictive than cigarettes.
| bilsbie wrote:
| I've never heard this idea. It seems like coffee bucks this
| trend though? I'll take 20 minutes to drink a cup but still
| wildly addicted.
| baby wrote:
| I don't think people are addicted to coffee in the same way
| they're addicted to cocain
| GordonS wrote:
| Agreed. I drink coffee because I like the taste and the
| caffeine gives a little boost. I could be said to be
| dependant on caffeine, as I get withdrawal symptoms on
| cessation (headaches) - but I feel no _compulsion_ to
| drink coffee, as there would be with addiction.
| standardUser wrote:
| You'd be surprised! Some people have as hard a time
| quitting coffee as they do nicotine. And lots of people
| do coke and never become addicted. It varies a lot from
| person to person, which is a fact that is
| underappreciated. Luckily, there is a lot of research now
| to support this.
| southernplaces7 wrote:
| >As a former smoker, I can only believe that anyone who takes
| this risk does not fully appreciate the consequences.
|
| That's the key thing there, "smoker". If you become addicted to
| nicotine via smoking tobacco, then you're possibly fucked, but
| nicotine by itself is nowhere near as dangerous for health, it
| even has some benefits for well-being.
|
| I don't know why you take exception to some people or articles
| emphasizing the above, or that cigarettes are the major risk.
| It's mostly true and addiction by itself specifically to a
| cheap, easily available substance like nicotine, which doesn't
| devastate daily functionality or economic solvency as many
| other narcotics do, is not terrible by itself.
| dieselgate wrote:
| I understand what you're saying and have mixed feelings. My
| opinion is that a nicotine addiction is terrible no matter
| how it's consumed but smoking tobacco is the most harmful way
| to consume.
|
| I was able to switch from chewing tobacco to nicotine pouches
| and gum but still feel the addiction is terrible.
| fwungy wrote:
| I've used 2mg nicotine gum as a mental clarity aid for years.
| It's cheap, effective, and harmless AFAIK.
|
| I have stopped using it for months at a time and never has any
| withdrawal symptoms. Caffeine otoh is addictive for me and will
| cause withdrawal symptoms if I indulge too often. The caffeine
| buzz can make me jittery and increase ADHD type behaviors for me.
| Ymmv.
| namanyayg wrote:
| How long does the effect last?
|
| I started taking caffeine pills before working out (a ~100mg
| dose) and it works really well, I wonder if I should try out
| nicotine gum too
| fwungy wrote:
| Nicotine gum just gets me on track. No buzz really, I just
| get more directed, keep my eye on the prize better.
|
| I don't do it everyday and I take breaks. It all comes very
| organically, I don't have to plan it.
| qingcharles wrote:
| For me it is just like a more concentrated caffeine dose.
|
| I had no noticeable addiction whatsoever, and I was
| hyperaware of the risk from the all the press over smoking
| addiction.
|
| Amazon usually has some really great offers on nicotine gum
| if you drill through their site long enough.
| GordonS wrote:
| You say it's harmless, but are there any negative health
| effects? (I seem to recall reading nicotine can cause thinning
| of the arteries, or something like that)
| fwungy wrote:
| I've heard there are but haven't noticed anything personally.
|
| Nicotine has antifungal and antimicrobial attributes. I have
| even seen studies claiming smokers were less likely to get
| serious covid infections likely due to some property of
| nicotine.
|
| Native Americans treated tobacco as a sacred plant and
| praised it for all sorts of health and spiritual properties.
| That makes me think the plant and its consumption is probably
| a net benefit and it may be the way commercial cigarettes and
| tobacco are processed that cause the problems.
| 01100011 wrote:
| I've smoked on and off over the years, starting at 12. I never
| developed an addiction so I guess I'm lucky.
|
| I really enjoy smoking a pipe, but generally don't because of the
| health risks and the difficulty finding a place to comfortably
| smoke as a renter of a non-smoking apartment.
|
| Lately though I've been vaping 0-4x/day to help me focus and get
| mental energy. I also occasionally use half-doses of modafinil
| and notice the two work well together. The biggest downside of
| vaping for me is that I feel a little more agitated and depressed
| the next day or so. I guess this is what might normally feed the
| addictive cycle for others, but with type-2 bipolar depression
| it's a feeling I'm familiar with and I just ride it out vs trying
| to eliminate the feeling with more nicotine.
| sotix wrote:
| Is there any research into nicotine's role in assisting those
| with ADHD? It's a stimulant as the article points out, which many
| ADHD medications are as well of course. I'm curious if nicotine
| was (perhaps unintentionally) used in the 20th century to help
| those with ADHD stay focused on tasks and if an increase of
| diagnosed ADHD cases in the 21st century stems from its declined
| use or if it's entirely due to other factors such as generally
| being diagnosed to a greater degree.
| brbrodude wrote:
| You can find some things online on a thesis that some nicotine
| addicts could be self-medicating indeed.
| VHRanger wrote:
| Dr. Russell Barkley has research on the topic if I'm not wrong.
|
| He says it's effective as a treatment for ADHD, but less than
| traditional stimulants, more prone to addiction and side
| effects.
|
| Also, despite the rest of the discussion in this thread,
| nicotine ITSELF is carcinogenic, regardless of the way it's
| ingested. Not something you want to take long run recurrently.
| whalesalad wrote:
| Swedish snus is my preferred delivery mechanism.
| hiAndrewQuinn wrote:
| I occasionally suck on a 2mg nicotine lozenge when doing
| activities I want to encourage (Anki, low intensity stationary
| biking). Seems to work well for habit formation for me, and I
| never really feel the urge to use them outside of those contexts.
| hirvi74 wrote:
| After reading Gwern's writings on nicotine some years back, I
| did a bit of research myself. I can't recall where I read this,
| but I did come across some anecdotal datum about a person using
| nicotine to help them workout.
|
| However, that person was quite strict about their usage. He or
| she would only using nicotine when working out but never any
| other time. The reasoning was that nicotine helps in habit
| formation while active in one's system. So, hopefully the brain
| would crave working out because it would associate the reward
| of nicotine with working out.
|
| I do not know how it turned out, but I thought that was an
| interesting idea. What if nicotine could be used to aid in
| forming healthy habits, and once the habits are established,
| nicotine could be weened out?
|
| Do you think nicotine has any kind of similar effects for you?
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